BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 12:51 PM

"Brevity is best. Period.

From Hardy's The Mayor of Casterbridge
"The thunder of bowls echoed from the backyard; swingels hung behind the blower of the chimney; and ex-poachers and ex-gamekeepers, whom squires had persecuted without a cause, sat elbowing each other- men who in past times had met in fights under the moon, till lapses of sentences on the one part, and loss of favor and expulsion from service on the other, brought them here together to a common level, where they sat calmly discussing old times."

Hardy improved
"This was a place where old poachers and old gamekeepers could meet in peace and talk about the old times."

Do you see how much clearer and more concise my re-phrasing is? I have no doubt I could render the entire 330 page novel down to 42 pages, and possibly 35 if I got rid of all of the adjectives. I am also quite sure that, using my method, one could read Moby Dick on a flight from Chicago to Omaha and still have time to peruse the in-flight magazine. One could read the entire Old Testament while waiting to get his teeth cleaned. The House of the Seven Gables could be finished on two or three commutes to one's workplace by simply reading at the stoplights.

Those who argue against brevity unconsciously argue for the end of reading and the novel in our culture. This is a fast-moving world, and the only effective way to allow literature to compete with film, music etc is to make it more conveniently consummable. The Hardy quote lies steaming on the table before one's eyes like a huge plate of mutton and potatoes, and today's reader would frankly rather have a taco. "

And the pinnacle of fine art was the Rococo.

Craftsman? damn hacks.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 01:05 PM

John

I don't get your point, but I like the brevity with which you got to it.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:00 PM

LonesomeEJ opined:

I have no doubt I could render the entire 330 page novel down to 42 pages, and possibly 35 if I got rid of all of the adjectives. I am also quite sure that, using my method, * * * The House of the Seven Gables could be finished on two or three commutes to one's workplace by simply reading at the stoplights.

Those who argue against brevity unconsciously argue for the end of reading and the novel in our culture.

LEJ, whoever argues for the kind of brevity you're talking about argues immediately that the end of the reading of the novel is already ended (or at least ending) in our culture.

Who would WANT to read The Mayor of Casterbridge in 42 pages? Only devotees of Classics Comics! Who would WANT to "read The House of Seven Gables on a flight from Chicago to Omaha, with time to peruse the in-flight magazine"? Only fans of Cliff's Notes as a high art form. Only those who don't really enjoy reading.

This is a fast-moving world, and the only effective way to allow literature to compete with film, music etc is to make it more conveniently consummable [sic].

To apply "brevity", your whole post comes down to: "To make literature compete with other media, abolish literature."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:05 PM

And I goofed. I see that I wrote: that the end of the reading of the novel is already ended.

The end is ended? Oh-oh! I could have been briefer by making that last word "here".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 03:11 PM

It's true, back then people had more time to read mostly because it, along with music, etc. was the only entertainment there was, at least for the middle and upper classes.

It's also true folks today find it difficult to find time for reading BUT there are still best sellers' list and still authors who become fabulously wealthy writing book after book which sell well. So...somebody is still reading!

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:20 PM

Oh, I'm reading alright. By the time I read the Atlantic, Rolling Stone, Time, the Rocky Mountain News, Mudcat, etc, I barely have time to get through Dickens, Balzac, and Thomas Freakin Hardy! And as for Classics Illustrated, it beat the hell out of Cliff's Notes from a visual standpoint, when it came to completing a book report on Frankenstein that was due the next morning.

And don't even mention Shakespeare. The guy could never just say "the horse farted." It would be something like "oh steed that does't sometime give forth with noble neigh, why now from they nether quarters must thou bray?" I mean, that stuff was fine for Henry VIII. In fact, whatever time Henry spent trying to figure out what the hell Shakespeare was getting at, was time spent not executing his wives or spreading the pox among his serving wenches.

Now Eric Seagal, there was an author. What was Love Story, 94 pages? And if Eric could get falling in love, getting married, the girl dying, and the guy coming to a greater realization in 94 pages, why the heck Tolstoy couldn't cram Napoleon's invasion of Russia into 140 or so is inconceivable to me.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:27 PM

Thy tongue, that maketh thee a wag,
Now seemeth through thy upper cheeks to brag.
At least we hope 'tis so, who love thee ever;
For if 'tis not, why then the cheeks are nether.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:33 PM

Exactly

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Slag
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:14 AM

Brevity is what the editor and the publisher want. When you are being paid by the word the incentive is to linger over the description, background, history, relations, etc. It can be a real tug-of-war. The reader is left to decide who won the argument. What? Did you never read J.R.R. Tolkein's Bored, er, Lord of the Rings trilogy??

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 08:56 AM

Slag asked:

Did you never read J.R.R. Tolkein's Bored, er, Lord of the Rings trilogy??

Yes, six times so far!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 01:49 PM

I read them over and over again, Slag. I think they are absolutely wonderful. Mind you, I was in my 20s and 30s when I was reading them, and I had more patience and more joy in savoring the details then, I think, than I would now....plus, everything seemed fresher and more unexpected then than it does now.

I don't know if I would enjoy them so much at present as I did then.

The thing is, when you really love something or someone you want the author to go into more detail about it or them. It's like when you're looking at a face you love....is one second's glance enough? After all, you've seen the whole face in one second, haven't you? Well, no, one second's glance is not nearly as good as five minutes of rapturous obervation...and five minutes is not as good as ten.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 01:59 PM

I read an interesting book once -- "Addicted to Mediocrity". One of the author's themes (and he used cinema to illustrate it) was that it is a modern sensibility to measure art by "realism" or "functionalism". When, in fact, it is up to the artist to create the reality within the work, and up to us, as viewers, readers, listeners to be the judge of the successful manufacture of that world.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: GUEST,kat out of town
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 06:43 PM

Heya! I got the editing job!! I'll tell ya more when I get home. Thanks for all of your good wishes!!!

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 08:18 PM

Very good!

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Nickhere
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 08:33 PM

Good grammar is important. I have often seen a brochure, catalogue or other material being very well presented but totally ruined at the last minute by bad punctuation, spelling mistakes and so on. Most of the world might not notice, but to the few who do, the offending errors stick out like ' a vast bowl of pus' to quote Monty Python. Lynne Truss' "Eats, Shoots and leaves" is an excellent book for dealing with punctuation, though at time it plods on rather ponderously. But it's not just a matter of 'being correct and propah' because, as Lynne's book prefectly illustrates, a cavalier attitude to syntax, grammar etc., can result in radically different meanings. Consider -

"They could have not wasted all the money" V. "They couldn't have wasted all the money"

See any difference? (I hope so)

But apart from that, if you are talking about creative writing, many other factors come into play. I feel creative writing should a) say something new, or in a new way b) enagage your attention   c) have beautifully crafted prose - economy of word, fluidity of line

Obvious examples include Thomas Paine's "Rights of Man" and "Cuomo vs. O'Connor" by Ellen McCormack (for how to present an argument systematically and devastatingly), Lord of the Rings by Tolkien (for how to develop an imaginary world in such consistent detail that it stops all disbelief), "The Machine Gunners" by Robert Westall (for accurately portraying an adolescent's experience of wartime UK, and on being an adolescent dealing with monolithic parents, school bullies and a grown-up world and politics).

I have just finished reading "The Life of Pi" by Yann Martel. I literally could not put it down. The prose is sublime. The insights astonishing. I have read it while queuing at the bank, while my customers weren't looking, at the breakfast table, on the public transport till my eyes hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 09:55 PM

Your compliment to the artistry of Lord of the Rings is spot on.

What is "The Life of Pi" about?

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 12:01 AM

Bravo, Kat!!! Congratulations.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Janie
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 12:45 AM

Great news, kat!

I loved "Life of Pi" too. My son and I listened to it on a long road trip a couple of years ago. (That is not to say it is a children's book.) It is one of the few audio books that we have listened to over and over again, or will even listen to a random selection on a short trip or for half and hour in the evening when we get home late from something like soccer practice. I pick up some previously missed nuance almost everytime I listen.

LH, A young teen's family from Indian decides to emmigrate to Canada. The ship goes down. The boy ends up adrift in a lifeboat. It is a brilliantly imaginative novel that explores spiritual and psychological survival and resiliency. At least that is my description. I will be interested to see how Nick describes it. From what I know of you from the 'Cat, I think you would find it a very satisfying read.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 01:21 PM

Thanks. I'll look around for it.