BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:19 PM

sorry, the second quote was CarolC at 01 Aug 04 - 03:23 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:25 PM

The question becomes, done to them BY WHOM?

Read the speech from Dr. Rima Khalaf Hunaidi (the very same woman you are using as your source of information) that I posted an excerpt from and a link to in my 01 Aug 04 - 01:51 PM post, and see for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:33 PM

Read the speech by HAIM HARARI, the point of this thread, and see for YOURSELF.


"There are none so blind as those who will not see."



Hundreds of times more moslems are killed every year by other moslems, but since you can't blame Israel, you see fit to ignore that.

The POINT of the article starting this thread was that as long as the Arab world insisted on blaming Israel for all the problems, they would NEVER have "self-reform stemming from open, scrupulous and balanced self-criticism is the right, if not the only alternative to plans that have apparently been drawn up outside the Arab world for restructuring the region and for reshaping its identity. " to quote from Dr. Rima Khalaf Hunaidi

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:36 PM

"This is a source for the information in the starting post, which YOU have claimed the man could not know because he was a Jew. I hardly think that this is unrelated."

No Beardedbruce, I was pointing out that the man's ONLY CLAIM to expertise was that he lives in Israel.

Here are the areas of expertise that he claims.


Professor HAIM HARARI, a theoretical physicist, is the Chair, Davidson Institute of Science Education, and Former President, from 1988 to 2001, of the Weizmann Institute of Science.

During his years as President of the Institute, it entered numerous
new scientific fields and projects, built 47 new buildings, raised one Billion Dollars in philanthropic money, hired more than half of its current tenured Professors and became one of the highest
royalty-earning academic organizations in the world.

Throughout all his adult life, he has made major contributions to
three different fields: Particle Physics Research on the international scene, Science Education in the Israeli school system and Science Administration and Policy Making.

Here is knowledge he bases his opinion on.

I have never been and I will never be a
Government official and I have no privileged information. My
perspective is entirely based on what I see, on what I read and on the fact that my family has lived in this region for almost 200 years. You may regard my views as those of the proverbial taxi driver, which you are supposed to question, when you visit a country.

He is claiming to know about Morocco and Pakistan even though he lives in Israel.
He is claiming that he knows about the problems in those places, a thousand miles away, even as he claims that those problems have nothing to do with Israel. It just isn't credible. How are Casablanca and Tel Aviv in the "same neighbourhood" Casablanca and Madrid may be in the same neighbourhood. Athens is a lot closer to Israel than Karachi. Is he also qualified to speak about Greece and Spain?

I'm not saying that the man doesn't know what he is talking about because he is a Jew. I'm saying he doesn't know what he is talking about because his claim of knowledge on the matter is hogwash and is not even internally consistant. I am sure a lot of Jews know a lot about this topic. Sharon is one one on the right, no Doubt, Carol quotes a lot who speak the other side.

I you got in a taxi in Chicago would you ask his opinion of New York or San Francisco?

This is what I don't like.

Why do I put aside Israel and its own immediate neighborhood? Because Israel and any problems related to it, in spite of what you might read or hear in the world media, is not the central issue, and has never been the central issue in the upheaval in the region.

I say there is no one central issue. I say, and have said that Israel is as much at fault as any regime in the region and much more so than most. You don't agree, that's fine. But don't accuse me of bigotry. Just like the man who wrote that speech I can read and give my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:47 PM

Note he said "on what I read " I was presenting the UN report that he must have read, from the figures he presents.

YOU accused him of "bigoted hate inducing unsupported diatribe" when if fact his reasoned remarks were those of an intelligent person given the information in the Arab produced UN report. THAT makes you a bigot- You judge his remarks by his nationality, rather than the content. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine- but YOU made an unsupported accusation.

Your preoccupation with blaming Israel for all the problems of the Arab world detracts from your sometimes valid critism of some of the actions of the government of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:49 PM

Haim Harari took the report given by Arabs at the UN out of context and twisted it around to serve a purpose that is entirely the opposite of the purpose of the original report given by Arabs. The way Haim Harari uses this information is racist, bigoted, and highly prejudiced.

And then he makes that racist claim that all Arabs and Muslims are complicit in their silence for the crimes committed by the most extreme Arabs and Muslims. As I pointed out before, if someone would say the same thing, only substituting "Jews" for "Arabs and Muslims", you and many others would call it anti-Semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:51 PM

Beardedbruce my point is that Israel blaming the problem on the Muslims being "dysfunctional" is disregarding the log in their own eye to point out the dust in everyone else's eyes.

No one argues that there are problems in the region.
Everyone else but Israel believes that Israel is a good place to address these problems. One of the reasonss Cheney had for starting the neocon plan in Iraq was that the Iraqis were the best educated Middle eastern country and that for that reason it would be a good place from which to spread democracy. The Palestinians traditionally have been the second best educated Middle Eastern population. In my opinion, their main impediment to democracy is the atrocity swapping between Hamas and the Sharon Goverment.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:51 PM

I disagree with your assessment.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:52 PM

I disagree with your assessment.

Then we will have to agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:59 PM

Beardedbruce,

He is the one who uses his nationality both as a source of credibility on the region and as an excuse to claim that he is not involved. To me, that's Bullshit.


He is using race to say in effect that the other Arab countries should be outraged at the Palestinians for their actions against Israel but implying that they should not be outraged at the actions Israel has taken against the Palestinians.

Its Bullshit, an Israeli claiming that the problem is not Israel is bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:00 PM

WHich I think we both knew.

I doubt if we will ever agree on this topic. I do think, however, that the good information you sometimes present is ignored because of the perceived bias you and Jack have against Israel- more so than the information lost because of my perceived bias in favor of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:02 PM

Beardedbruce, you are welcome to disagree with my assessment. You are not welcome to claim that I claim that someone is wrong BECAUSE they are Jewish. Fair enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:06 PM

sorry, crossposted- 03:00PM was to CarolC

Jack, he is quoting an UN report saying that the problem is not Israel. I do not think he "uses his nationality both as a source of credibility on the region ", but rather to identify himself.

"Professor HAIM HARARI, a theoretical physicist, is the Chair, Davidson
Institute of Science Education, and Former President, from 1988 to
2001, of the Weizmann Institute of Science.

During his years as President of the Institute, it entered numerous
new scientific fields and projects, built 47 new buildings, raised one
Billion Dollars in philanthropic money, hired more than half of its
current tenured Professors and became one of the highest
royalty-earning academic organizations in the world.

Throughout all his adult life, he has made major contributions to
three different fields: Particle Physics Research on the international
scene, Science Education in the Israeli school system and Science
Administration and Policy Making."


Seems like a standard academic listing to me...

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:12 PM

beardedbruce, the way things work in the US, and I imagine also in Israel, is that anyone who doesn't have a bias against the Palestinians, and Arabs and Muslims in general, is perceived to have a bias against Israel. But that's just nonesense. The fact that I don't have a bias against the Palestinians is not in any way an indication of a bias against Israel.

I support Israelis. Just not the same Israelis that you support. I challenge you to read the material I posted in this thread from the members and former members of the IDF and the refuseniks, who are not willing to be complicit in their silence about what the government of Israel is doing in the Occupied Territories. Those people are Israelis, and I support them.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:47 PM

Jack, you should take your head out of your ass. Carol has NEVER supported Israel in anything she's written. It is one litany after another about the Palestinians--and she sees no connection between them and the Arabic nations (countries) that have vowed to destroy Isreal. You spout the same shit. So, dear Jack, fuck you, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:03 PM

Carol has NEVER supported Israel in anything she's written.

If you think that, it's obvious that you're not reading what I've written.

Who died and made you God brucie? I challenge you, also, to read the words of the members and former members of the IDF that I've posted here in this thread. And the myriad of other things I've posted from Israeli Jews whose main crime is that they don't agree with you about what's good for Israel.

When you were an activist in the fight against the war in Vietnam, there were people who were accusing people like you of being anti-American. Of hating America, and of not supporting America. Vietnam War protesters were not anti-American. They just didn't agree with the agenda of the US government with regard to Vietnam. I don't have to support the agenda that you endorse in order to be in support of Israel. You don't get to decide that your vision of Israel is the only vision of Israel that is supportive of Israel as a country. And the fact that it's my money and not yours that pays for what the government of Israel does to the Palestinians, gives me a hell of a lot more right to decide which vision of lsrael I am willing to support than you.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:58 PM

Carol, and it's also some of your money that pays for what the Palestinians are doing to Israel also. The U.S. gave millions to the Palestinians as well. I don't see much of it going to better their everyday lives. -LB

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 05:00 PM

And Carol, using the "f" word doesn't become you as a lady. -LB

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 05:13 PM

I don't see much of it going to better their everyday lives

The fact that you don't see it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. The actual fact is that quite a lot of foriegn aid money was used by the Palestinians to build the civil infrastructure (schools, hospitals, roads, government facilities, etc.) that the government of Israel destroyed during the incursion into the Occupied Territories in 2002.

I never said I was a lady.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 05:16 PM

Let me rephrase that, since that is a bit of a sore point for me...

The actual fact is that quite a lot of foriegn aid money was used by the Palestinians to build the civil infrastructure (schools, hospitals, roads, government facilities, etc.) that the government of Israel used my tax money to help them destroy during the incursion into the Occupied Territories in 2002.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM

SSDD from you Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:33 PM

Another thing I was wondering about, brucie, is when you were protesting the Vietnam War, how much time you spent criticizing the people of Vietnam for the things that were being done to them by the US government.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:41 PM

Or maybe you're just a completely spineless fair-weather activist who is only willing to get involved in fashionable activist or human rights movements, but who won't go anywhere near any human rights causes that won't bring you any glory.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: mg
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 08:24 PM

the things that were being done for some of them and many are greatly appreciative of our efforts to this day. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 08:36 PM

Carol, let me accurately rephrase your rephrasel.
"The actual fact is that quite a lot of foriegn aid money was used by the Palestinians to build the civil infrastructure (schools, hospitals, roads, government facilities, etc.) in which the Palestinian terorrist cowards took shelter after committing their vile and despicable terorist acts." -LB

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 08:54 PM

Carol,

Let me ask this. What have you ever done for anyone but yourself? These posts of yours are self-serving, because most people are tired of the crap you cut and paste. You are a rude individual, and not all that persuasive with your arguments.

You liken yourself to a person who cares about human rights. You do not. You care about Palestinian rights. Not Jewish rights. So, stow your rhetoric. It sucks, and your initial personal attack did, too. Pass that on to the guy you live with, with my warmest regards.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 09:34 PM

I guess you didn't understand.

I said

I'll tell you what Brucie. If you are not a troll, you show us where Carol said that the Israelis are wrong "for wanting to live". If she is really as hatefull as you say she is it shouldn't be hard to find. If you can't find anything to back up what you are saying, if you can't back up your disgusting ad hominim attacks then fuck you!

Defending Palestinians is not the same as saying that "Israelis are wrong for wanting to live"

It seems to me you are going to respond to this in one of two ways. You are either going to back up your statement with a quote from Carol or you are going to demonstate your ignorance one more time by repeating the same lame lies. What is it to be brucie? Are you going to put up or shut up?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 09:40 PM

I disagree with your praphrasing of what I said, Little Brother. And I can back that up with documentation.


These posts of yours are self-serving, because most people are tired of the crap you cut and paste.

How can they possibly be self-serving if they bring me so much hostility from people like you, Martin Gibson, Bill H, and various anonymoust GUESTS? I document my assertions because people ask me to. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it.

Let me ask this. What have you ever done for anyone but yourself

I raised a special needs child, essentially by myself.

You are a rude individual

That's pretty funny coming from someone who defends someone whose whole purpose in being here in the Mudcat is to make personal attacks on others.

and not all that persuasive with your arguments

You're entitled to your opinions.

You liken yourself to a person who cares about human rights. You do not. You care about Palestinian rights. Not Jewish rights. So, stow your rhetoric. It sucks, and your initial personal attack did, too. Pass that on to the guy you live with, with my warmest regards.

This is bullshit. Just as I hold the policies of the US government responsible for the deaths of all of the US citizens who died or were wounded in Vietnam, I also hold the government of Israel responsible for all of the Israeli Jews who have died or been wounded as a result of its policies. I am speaking out on behalf of Israeli Jews. Go ahead and read the words of the young people whom you expect to go and die and/or kill in the Occupied Territories in order to carry out the policies of a repressive regime that they don't even agree with. Why will you not read their words?

The reason you won't read their words is because if you do, you'll find out that you have been supporting state sponsored terrorism all this time, and you might have difficulty living with yourself as a result of that realization.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 09:48 PM

I'm sorry Beardedbruce, I quoted him once, I'm not going to do it again. If he's quoting a UN report good for him. He said he was speaking as a "proverbial cab driver" not as a political expert. Pardon me for taking him at his word. But that's what he said.

He is trying to say this is a World War with Israel and its allies on one side and the Muslim world on the other. I say that Israel vs Arabs is not my fight. I'm sorry but I don't value an Israeli child above anyone else's.

I think that there are plenty of people putting across the Pro Irsael point of view. If Carol wants to speak for the Palestinians that doesn't make her against the people of Israel. I am for peace and prosperity for Israel. But I think their current government has other priorities.

Good luck to all of you and God Bless. I am done with this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 02:59 AM

Jack, take a word from your wife, OK?

"My "fuck you" response is between me and brucie, and it's none of your business."