BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 May 05 - 04:23 PM

Apropos shooting people in the back.

Your buddies had a very marked predilection for doing exactly that.

Running them down with Saracens.

Get a life, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 05 - 04:34 PM

One young soldier seems to have lost it and a couple more joined in.
This is a description of Bloody Sunday? The person who wrote these words is possibly a fool but I don't think so. It seems more likely that he was being deliberately dishonest. If he really believes it to be accurate then he really is too stupid to commenting on Irish affairs.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 05 - 06:40 PM

You are right.
It is not worth making Irish friends angry. I make no more comment on events in Ireland.

I will say from this side, that the Civil Rights movement had and would have continued to have the support of British public opinion , that it would have been hard for our politicians to ignore, and without apportioning blame, that it was a tragedy that was lost.

Lastly, that we ceased to be an imperialist country long ago, giving our colonies independence willingly and without a fight, and remaining friends. The present troubles are nothing do do with a non existant wish to cling to empire.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 13 May 05 - 02:57 AM

No problem Keith. And vice versa, I might add.

I have no objection to discussing these subjects, and I'm sure that goes for a lot of the Nationalist posters here. Where the problem occurs is where uninformed statements that tend to trivialise our situation; especially in these days where News gets a few rounds in the washing machine, before it is served up to us.

I have no doubt that public opinion in Britain would have been behind the continuing Civil Rights movement, but Lord Brookeborough summed up the situation as it pertained to 'Northern Irish' public opinion, and I'm afraid, that was the day to day reality for us.

I think you know in your heart of hearts what we Irish people are like. We are honest, decent people; welcoming and friendly at the best of times.

They say that where there is hardship and deprivation, the people are more honest and open..., and that goes across the board, in working class neighborhoods, be they in Yorkshire, Lancashire, London, or Belfast.

But I could see then, and I see now, why the northern hemisphere's equivalent of the South African National Party are unwilling..., nay, adamant that the status quo should stay in place.

It is sad to admit that it took us to be pushed literally to the ground, and under it, for us to rise up and stand that ground for once and for all.

Read that link above, which I borrowed from another thread, especially the last answer Brookeborough gives.

One cannot negogiate with logic like that.
Ian Paisley, for his part (and by their silence, the vast majority of the British Public) wants us to be defenceless once again, while the people who kept this 'statelet' of ours afloat all these years hold not only all the aces, but the rest of the deck as well.

Including, I might add, a very sizeable arsenal of their own.

If the British people really want to see peace in the north, it has to get those weapons off the streets too. Yet no one has ever called for that. Not in Westminster. Not in Mudcat.

When they do (in Westminster, I mean) maybe then we can get to the stage where there is 'an acceptable level' of crime and violence, that passes for the norm in every so-called 'civilised' society.

Personally, there is no such thing, but I'm a realist also.

No problem Keith, certainly from my part. I, and I'm sure the rest of us here just want to see it all end.
But I'm not prepared to see the job half-done.

And I certainly will not stand by and take flak from all sides about what bastards we all are, while those who call us that guard some rather sinister skeletons in their own cupboards.

"John Bull he boasts and he laughs with scorn
And he says that Irish man is born
To be always discontented for at home he cannot agree
But we'll banish discord from our land
And in harmony like brothers stand
To demand the rights of Ireland let us all united be!
Our Parliament in College Green
For to assemble 'twill be seen
And happy days in Erin's isle we soon will have once more
Then dear old Ireland soon will be
A great and glorious country
And peace and blessings soon will smile all 'round the Shamrock Shore!

Tiocfaidh ar lá

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 05 - 05:26 AM

Ian Paisley, for his part (and by their silence, the vast majority of the British Public) wants us to be defenceless once again

Tiocfaidh, how on earth can you say things like that and in the same post put Where the problem occurs is where uninformed statements that tend to trivialise our situation

I'm sorry but the 'vast majority of the british public' does NOT want you to be defenceless. It is uninformed statements like that that not only trivialise the situation but set people against you, whether they agree with you in the main or not!

I am also astounded that anyone so obviously literate and intelligent in other ways can have "the vast majority of the British Public wants us to be defenceless" and "I have no doubt that public opinion in Britain would have been behind the continuing Civil Rights movement" just 14 lines away from each other. I will put it down to the heat of the argument.

I am completely at a loss as to whether you are saying the British Public are with you or against you. I can assure you that everyone I know is highly supportive of the nationalist views, if not always the methods of making them known. Who on earth is this 'majority of the British Public' anyway? Those who voted for this government? (36%) Those who voted for the Conservatives? (37%) The remainder? (27%)

Are ALL memebrs of one or more of those groups for you or against you? Or is it only part of them? I am honestly not being pedantic or purposely dense. I realy don't know what you think of us. Are we the honest and open people from the working class neighbourhoods? Or are we the demonised imperialistic warmongers that want you to be defenceless?

What would you have this mythical vast majority do to show our support?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 13 May 05 - 05:55 AM

1968 and 2005 are 37 years apart, Dave.

And not ONE person has yet come and said that the Loyalists should throw down their weapons.

You included.

Say things like that, and mean it, and I think I might start believing you.

Cheers.

Tiocfaidh ar lá

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 13 May 05 - 05:58 AM

... and we can start another thread where people can post to and say that they've lobbied their respective MP's

Platitudes mean absolutely nowt

Tiocfaidh an Samhraidh

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 05 - 06:36 AM

And not ONE person has yet come and said that the Loyalists should throw down their weapons.

I have said it many times before and will say it many times more but, just so no-one has to look it up...

I disagree with ALL armed politics. To make matters clearer this includes Northern Ireland and includes all parties concerned. I will not state specificaly that the Loyalists should throw down their weapons nor will I say the Nationalists should. To do so would imply that one side should while the other should not. I will simply state again ALL parties concerned should give up their weapons.

Happy?

I know 1968 and 2005 are 37 years apart. I don't understand the significance though. Good politcal answer though, Tiocfaidh, cast confusion and avoid the question. Now, at the risk of sounding like Jeremy Paxman, will you please answer my questions.

I still don't know whether this 'vast majority' want to fire neuclear missiles at Ireland while the people of that country wave sticks at us or whether they are honest friendly working class heroes who would love to share a pint of the black stuff with you. I still don't know who the vast majority are. I still don't know whether you agree that "(and by their silence, the vast majority of the British Public) wants us to be defenceless once again" is one of those "uniformed statements" that you dislike so much. I still don't know what you want me to do about whatever it is I am accused of if lobbying MPs, voting and stating categoricaly that I am against both the violence and the division of Ireland.

I look forward to your direct answers.

Ta.

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 05 - 06:39 AM

sorry,

...if lobbying MPs, voting and stating categoricaly that I am against both the violence and the division of Ireland are platitudes which mean nothing.

Itchy send finger Syndrome. Perhaps I need to disarm;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:03 AM

Jeremy Paxman, my arse!
In order to try and nail somebody in an interview, you must hold the moral high ground, and Britain never was that in relation to Ireland

"I still don't know who the vast majority are"

The silent ones, Dave.

... and the significance of the 37 years lies in the last words of Brookeborough, linked to a few posts up, in that nothing has changed as far as they are concerned.

The vast majority can 'tsk tsk' all they want in front of the evening news, and 'want' this and that for the Irish people.
Action however, is what is required

OK, you are not the platitudinal type, and that's dead on, and I genuinely thank you for that. But you do not need to defend the vast majority, by stating that you are not one of them.

Let them state it for themselves

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:15 AM

In order to try and nail somebody in an interview, you must hold the moral high ground

Never worried Angus Deyton:-)

Still disagreee on the silent majority thing as it is the vocal majority that seem to cause most of the problems on all sides. At least I think I know where you are coming from. How you think Lord Brookeborough is representative of the majority of the British public, however, is, quite honestly, beyond me.

Keep up the good fight! (The one done without guns and bombs!)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:41 AM

Very few people are aware Dave, that Brookeborough's line is still the mindset of the Unionists "....as it pertained to 'Northern Irish' public opinion, and I'm afraid, that was the day to day reality for us." (if you want to quote me, it's handy to quote the context as well....)

Because it is always the Nationalists who seem to be under pressure all the time to hand in their weapons, from here and in Britain, the British public either wittingly or unwittingly buy into the same argument...., and ideology.

That's why it's handy to know the situation.

They (The Unionists) do not want to share power with us, Full Stop.
The more they are put under pressure to show their blatant sectarianism, the better the chances are of the Jeremy Paxman's of this world nailing them to the floorboards.

Just like they used to to to us.

Literally.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 06:21 AM

Anyone still interested in who dunnit?

Channel 4 (UK TV) is running an investigative programme in it's "Dispatches" series, Thurs 22nd Sept

Don't miss Spooks though.

keith

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 07:11 AM

Who did do it Keith A of Hertford ? Does some credible source know for sure who did it ? Should be worth watching as one of the producers lead the mid seventies campaign to FREE GEORGE DAVIS. Yes the man sent to prison for bank robbery. They got him out of prison after a long public outcry. Three weeks after his release he was caught robbing a bank ! So the team who made this production can't be wrong !

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 07:53 AM

Someone knows!
Obviously there is insufficient evidence for a prosecution.
I would be most interested in who you suspect Sweeney.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 09:27 AM

Unlike some of your previous posts KAOH which I have just read I would prefer to wait to see who goes to court and what the case against them is. Then look at the evidence, does it point to the accused. What the jury think and then make judgement. But then again I am Irish, I think if memory serves me right your nation got it wrong a few times with Irish men and women.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 09:31 AM

May not be a court case now.
How do you discipline your mind not to speculate on the evidence available? (that is all I was doing, I thought everyone did)

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 10:24 AM

I don't eat everything I see. And I don't believe everything I read or hear on the Media. It takes little to either start a rumour or whispering campaign, especially if the person or persons are disliked in the first place. I am sure you will admit like myself there are people around where you live and if someone in a position of trust or respect told you that he or she did an unpleasant deed last week you would believe it, especially if the individual had in your eyes the ability to carry it out. I hope this helps someway in my explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 09:44 AM

Today a man is charged with the robbery, and imprisoning a hostage.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 01:43 PM

Absolutely nothing to do with the robbery but reading Den's post of 12 May 05 - 09:49 AM. I have a couple of questions, that I would most certainly have liked to put to Robert J. Breglio the American ballistics expert, and to the other ballistics expert, Dr. Hugh Thomas.

They are both linked as the evidence of both men seems to rely strongly on suppositions, that they may, or may not have grounds for making.

The first is to the American expert - How by examining the autopsies and medical reports did he conclude that the 'sniper' was using telescopic sights? In his study of the angle of the trajectories is he assuming that the three victims were standing upright? Did he verify this, or was it confirmed in evidence by others? If this is an assumption did he then extend the line of trajectory to a fire position most likely then conclude that the shooter would have had to use a telescopic sight.

The second relates to Dr. Hugh Thomas's comments in the interview with channel 4 in which "he claimed that these three victims could not possibly have been hit at street level as was the official statement. He said, "It would be almost impossible for those three men in the few seconds that were available to them to bend to exactly the same angle and face exactly the same way and be shot in exactly the same fashion."

Now I believe that in the British War Museum there is a photograph that demonstrates exactly how this circumstance regarding the possibility of quite a large gathering bending "to exactly the same angle and face exactly the same way" The photograph is of a collection of fighter pilots taken during the Battle of Britain. Apparently as the photographer took the shot a weapons armourer tested the guns on one of the aircraft. Everyone in that photograph is crouched, I was noted that those who were right-handed were looking over their right shoulders because the firing came from behind, while those who were left-handed were looking over their left shoulders. It prompted a change in formation where left handers if available were put out on the left side of the formation.

Now to get back to the three victims and Dr. Hugh Thomas's evidence, is he too assuming that these men were standing up-straight? Under fire it is not uncommon and quite natural to crouch, you try to make as small a target as possible, you double up, in this position I can certainly see how it would be possible to have an entry and exit would indicate a shot fired at a downward angle of 45 degrees, when in actual fact it was fired along a horizontal plane.

The walls of Derry were being patrolled that day by members of the Anglian Regiment if memory serves me correctly, but I am in no wat sure. Now they would not be carrying arms fitted with telescopic sights, it was not standard issue at the time, but that surely would have been examined in detail during the Inquiry. The timing as stated by the ballistics experts seem to indicate a semi-automatic rifle. It would be interesting to know. The above were merely the questions that immediately came to my mind, very interesting, thanks for the post Den.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 06:33 AM

I've just gone through the postings to this thread:

On "Intelligence"
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:38 AM

"And the government knew all about these non-existent stocks of WMDs in Iraq?"

GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland. - PM
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:13 PM

"And the government knew all about these non-existent stocks of WMDs in Iraq?"

Sure they knew, they knew they were wrong"

And:

From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 07:13 PM

"When I hear on TV that "intelligence sources have confirned", I can't help thinking if these are are the same "intelligent sources" who confirmed the existence of Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq."


Well both MGOH and Guests are wrong. NOBODY in Intelligence knew about those non-existent stocks of WMD's in Iraq, the only people who clearly stated that they MAY exist as they were currently unaccounted for were the UN's own UNSCOM Inspectors. That was the whole point to establish whether they existed or not. I am not going to argue the matter, but anyone who doubts the above should just go back and read what was very clearly stated at the time.

The collapse of the GFA:
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 05:28 PM

"I see NI slipping back into conflict again ,after the false dawn of the Good Friday Agreement.

The blame lies on the shoulders of the Irish and UK governments, and the loyalist people of NI."

Eh; Its now November Ake, have I missed something or has, "the false dawn of the Good Friday Agreement" given way to an extremely quiet conflict? As this one of your many predicted apocalypses has failed to materialise (like all the others) are you were so prominent in aportioning blame for its cause, are you prepared to give those same parties credit for staving off what you always see as the inevitable in your dire predictions.

Also from Akenaton the Prophet:
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 07:47 PM

"Tiocfaidh...The IRAs' purpose is to construct a United Irish Republic, a sentiment I fully agree with.

The problem lies with the Loyalist population of the North, who will always be in a position to block this purpose."

Really Ake, by the bye this also goes to someone, who like Ake here staunchly espouses the cause of a united Ireland and states he supports the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland. Well the results of a survey taken in 2004 showed that quite a sizeable majority of the people of NI wished to remain within the United Kingdom, it also showed that the majority of Catholics wished that Northern Ireland should remain as part of the UK - That good enough for you, are you prepared to accept that.

Now this one was just bloody hilarious:
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 05 - 11:21 AM

"Some brits are unbelievable. If your country had been occupied by a foreign army and your people persecuted for centuries, not only would you be having red, white and blue street parties to celebrate the end of the occupation, but you would be singing twenty verse songs about the whole debacle for the next few centuries."

Hey pal, have you EVER read ANYTHING about the history of the British Isles? Judging from your you OBVIOUSLY HAVE NOT.

Lastly
From: polaitaly - PM
Date: 10 May 05 - 04:52 AM

"The nationalist community was so well protected that the first thing the army did was Bloody Sunday."

Not true, the first thing the British Forces did was to enforce the disbanding of the B-Specials and disarm them. In doing that, while protecting the Nationalist enclaves in the cities of Northern Ireland the British Forces came under attack from the "Loyalist" paramilitary groups. By the way polaitaly that is not an opinion, it is not something gathered from reading history or articles on the internet, it comes from personal experience.

Another thing that should be realised - in history, there has never been, prior to the inception of the Republic of Ireland, a country, a nation, or a State called Ireland. There has been an island called Ireland or Erin. Same misconception applies to Palestine, which is a modern invention.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:11 AM

Update
1 conviction.
1 guilty plea.
2 charged awaiting trial.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8045200.stm