BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:29 PM

Which cities would those be laura? Thousands you say? How did we miss this?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 08:34 PM

For eighteen long years, characters like Peter Lilley, Margaret Thatcher, Keith Joseph were cheered ecstatically at Tory party conferences as they explained how they intended to stick it to the most hated by Toriesories sections of society: illegal immigrants, the unemployed, unmarried mothers, people on welfare.....

Now this government is sticking it to the sections of society that labour party voters most despise....

I really think you are wasting your time debating the wrongs and rights of this case. Some people object to the enjoyment of cruelty that is involved in being a member of a hunt, as opposed to being a ratcatcher. But i really don't think most people give a toss either way

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 03:09 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:16 PM

Just wait until it's your minority who are persecuted by parliment...

Bunnahabhain.

I must have missed this post - and the irony of it.............

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: robinia
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 04:48 AM

Thank you, thank you, Gervase, for posting an unpopular and widely misunderstood viewpoint -- though I doubt it will do much good! But anyone in honest search of what's behind both the ban and the foxhunting tradition itself might look up a long article that appeared a few weeks ago in (of all places!} The New Yorker (I lent it to a friend, so can't cite chapter & verse, but my local library had no trouble finding it under "foxhunting"). There's also a mind-opening new book that the article brought to my attention: A Fox in the Cupboard by Jane Shilling.   Read it, and then tell me about those awful people "who take pleasure in inflicting cruelty on animals" -- words that don't convey at all the spirit in which this journalist and single mother (do I have to add that she isn't rich?) discovered in herself, lmost by accident, a passion for the hunt   And it isn't a passion for cruelty; on the contrary . . . but read the book for yourself. And talk to someone who hunts before YOU define THEIR motivation.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 04:58 AM

Perhaps those who support inflicting cruelty for their fun - should talk to those who do NOT choose to hunt - before YOU define THEIR motivation?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 05:32 AM

I chose not to hunt because I don't have the time, and I can't ride. Hunting is a way of life that has existed all my life, and hasn't done me any harm. As the harm it does to others well, foxes get killed, but that after all is the purpose of the hunt isn't it? Well not really, according to some people who go for the joy of riding headlong over hedges and ditches, and the fresh air and exercise. The fox now, well he is an animal unused to predation because man has killed off all his natural predators, so I suppose it awakens and sharpens an old instinct, and the clever ones [aren't they all supposed to be wily?] escape from the hunt and continue doing their own predation on cats, lambs, baby birds, hedgehogs etc. Some get killed and honour is satisfied on both sides, some deaths are more cruel than others, although it's a quick end. As for the cruelty involved, can anyone tell me of any method of killing an animal whether for food or for vermin control that is totally devoid of cruelty. You can't tell me that an animal that would naturally shy away when a human puts out a hand to them is not frightened when someone puts a stun gun to their head, and hopefully gets it right; not always the case. I challenge those of you who are concerned about the circumstances of a foxes end to visit a slaughterhouse, and pronounce themselves totally happy with the emthods used, and the cattle rolling their eyes in fear as ths slaughterman approaches. No it isn't pretty but it's something that's done thousands of times every day in the UK, and I believe that some of the people who do it enjoy their work!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: robinia
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 05:51 AM

Wasn't aware that I was defining anyone else's motivation -- or should I have said "anyone else's pleasure"?   Earlier poster's comment about "taking pleasure in inflicting cruelty on animals" did, it seems to me, define a "pleasure" that clearly is not Jane Shillings.....

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 06:34 AM

I challenge those of you who are concerned about the circumstances of a foxes end to visit a slaughterhouse, and pronounce themselves totally happy with the emthods used, and the cattle rolling their eyes in fear as ths slaughterman approaches. No it isn't pretty but it's something that's done thousands of times every day in the UK, and I believe that some of the people who do it enjoy their work!

Yet more 'crimson kippers' - but I will bite. For I would encourage all of us to visit slaughterhouses and I would even suggest that schools should organise visits for all their pupils.

As an ex-slaughterman who has observerved this in (some of) my fellow workers - and I would agree it is a sad fact that their are some individuals who do enjoy this killing - and not just as the expected customary pride in doing a good professional job of work. I have come to the conclusion that there are simply some people who are totally insenitive or who actually enjoy inflicting cluelty and can find many excuses to justify it.

Many people are not, and will never be satisfied with the methods currently used in rearing and killing animals for food - there is a long way to go and possibly we may all eventually decide that this is a price that we should not expect animals to pay? But these methods have been improved and are under constant review and reflect our concern and the considerable pressure to inprove them further. If we follow the line of reasoning that appears to be suggested here by some - we should be moving in the opposite direction and all indulge and enjoy inflicting cruelty?

That as all these animals are going to die - for food or because they are judged by us to be pests - the comparisons and suggestion appears to be that we may as well obtain as much sporting pleasure from the manner of their death as we can. It would I am sure be thought by some to be great fun to also dress-up to drive sheep and cattle to the doors of their death - with people riding hunters and with baying hounds.

I can see nothing honourable in chasing, terrifying, exhausting and eventually killing any animal by allowing other (well-fed) animals to tear them apart - for the sporting pleasure some participants may obtain from inflicting this particular form of needles cruelty.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 07:37 AM

" - the comparisons and suggestion appears to be that we may as well obtain as much sporting pleasure from the manner of their death as we can."

Well there you go, that is why this argument will never end, as people will take meanings and intentions that were never there, out of what other people say. Nobody has said that they do it for the enjoyment of any cruelty that may be involved, and that cruelty or lack of cruelty is a value judgement made by the persons involved on both sides of the argument. Most of the anti cruelty perceptions are arrived at by anthropomorphising the animals involved, and as most people don't even seem to be able to put themselves in another person's shoes, what price their judgement on behalf of dumb animals?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 05:39 PM

GUEST - Nearly every town or city has a large fox population - and in every town or city with a fox population there are people hired to kill these foxes that get in the way. And this amounts to thousands or foxes that don't even get a chance to run away. they are just shot. Or trapped. Or poisoned.
I was completely anti-hunt at one point - until I learnt more about it. I suggest you do the same before attacking hunts too fiercly.

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 07:53 PM

But if hunting foxes with hounds only kills 6% of the fox population, it isnt carried out as a means of controlling numbers. So why do you think it is done?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 01:52 AM

Most of the anti cruelty perceptions are arrived at by anthropomorphising the animals involved, and as most people don't even seem to be able to put themselves in another person's shoes, what price their judgement on behalf of dumb animals?

And earlier

The fox now, well he is an animal unused to predation because man has killed off all his natural predators, so I suppose it awakens and sharpens an old instinct, and the clever ones [aren't they all supposed to be wily?] escape from the hunt and continue doing their own predation on cats, lambs, baby birds, hedgehogs etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 02:13 AM

Nobody has said that they do it for the enjoyment of any cruelty that may be involved, and that cruelty or lack of cruelty is a value judgement made by the persons involved on both sides of the argument.

It would be more honest if folk did just come out and say this - for that is what all the excuses, comparisons and other 'red herrings' are in effect supporting. I think the argument will just go on if one side continues to ignore or belittle the only real issue at stake - and continues to excuse any form of cruelty inflicted only for sporting pleasure.

Perhaps perceptions of what is inflicting needless cruelty should be based more of those who are on the receiving end of it - rather than those who obtain pleasure in inflicting it? The latter perhaps should not have a say at all?

I suggest that if the punishment for speeding etc were for you to be chased across the countryside by hounds baying for your blood and encouraged to attack and bite you when you were eventually exhausted - you may consider this to be a cruel punishment, a little unfair and would wish the law to be changed to offer you some protection? I would agree with you too.

What would your opinion then be of those who thought there was no cruelty involved in this practice - or it was deserved - or that those chased were somehow not knowledgable enough to understand the reasons or appreciate the thrill and fun of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 03:02 AM

I was completely anti-hunt at one point - until I learnt more about it. I suggest you do the same before attacking hunts too fiercly.

Now that just about every hunt in the land has demonstrated that it is possible for them to meet as usual and have a great social day out - without inflicting any cruelty at all and there is no reason why this should not continue - why would you now wish to re-insert the only element that remains at issue?

Most people do not attack hunts (fiercly or otherwise) - they just do not think that inflicting any cruelty for sporting pleasure is acceptable. Without this aspect - those who may continue to wish to stop other folk from dressing up as they wish - to gather and ride (or walk) around the countryside - will not have any support from me - nor I suspect from many others.

So if you must continue to post on this issue - will you please explain why you think that inflicting needless cruelty - for the sporting pleasure of a few in this particular practice - should be made legal? If you don't think this cruelty is necessary - please just get on and ride with these hunts and have a good day out....

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Puzzled
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 03:50 AM

So the estimated 91 foxes that died on the first day of your 'acceptable' hunting did so with smiles on their little furry faces, secure in the knowledge that their deaths were somehow different?
Most odd.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:26 AM

So the estimated 91 foxes that died on the first day of your 'acceptable' hunting did so with smiles on their little furry faces, secure in the knowledge that their deaths were somehow different?

If these foxes were not torn apart by hounds - then it was 'different'. Whether this was 'acceptable' is open to debate. It would appear to have been legal. We may have to just settle for that.......

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:30 AM

laura in which city is it legal to poison foxes?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 11:03 AM

""So the estimated 91 foxes that died on the first day of your 'acceptable' hunting did so with smiles on their little furry faces, secure in the knowledge that their deaths were somehow different?
Most odd.""

See anthropomorphism.!!
G

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 02:04 PM

I don't know the law on your point GUEST - but in every city foxes are being 'dealt with' in one way or another. Whether it's legal or not appears to be a diferent question.

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 02:28 PM

Nearly every town or city has a large fox population - and in every town or city with a fox population there are people hired to kill these foxes that get in the way. And this amounts to thousands or foxes that don't even get a chance to run away. they are just shot. Or trapped. Or poisoned.

Which cities poison foxes laura? And if hunting with hounds only kills 6% of the fox population, it isn't carried out as effective number controlling exercise , so why do you think it is done?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:10 PM

I think a number of people have made it fairly obvious that hunting is done for enjoyment. WHether I agree with that or not is another question.
ANd for the first question - read the above post! I'm not linking the two as methods of fox - control - I'm asking why are people not more concerned about this than hunting as more foxes are killed in this way that through hunts!!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:17 PM

so which cities poison foxes hire people to poison foxes? you must know, you used it as part of your argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:19 PM

thanks by the way for admitting why you think people do it. very honest of you. but don't use baseless facts to prove a non existent point.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:20 PM

Yes but as we all know foxes that are poisoned or run over by a car always have a smile on their faces.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:31 PM

poisoning of foxes is illegal, by now laura knows that. she can not name one city that 'hires people' to poison them. she knows hunting with hounds is not an effective control method. she admits (very honestly) it is done for pleasure.

knowing all this she is not as completely anti hunt as before. puhleaze.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:41 PM

Oh puhleaze - yourself!
I've always ALWAYS said that I am not pro-hunt, I'm anti-ban. ALWAYS. And just for the record - I've never been hunting.

Ok - so maybe they don't poison them. So I got a detail wrong. The facts are still the same, although I don't know the exact statistics (I'll look them up in a minute as I'm obviously making it all up) FOXES ARE KILLED IN TOWNS AND CITIES EVERY YEAR, EVERY DAY, BY PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT THEM THERE.
People who don't want them there becasue they mess up their lawns and tear open their rubbish and make a noise and are a general nuisance. They are killed in far bigger numbers than hunts ever did - but becasue people associate hunting with this class-issue, they have a bigger problem with it than with this very effective (whether it's right or not - it's effective) method of fox-control.
Maybe if people didn't take up so much space on the planet with their crappy towns then there wouldn't be a fox problem in every city. (alright - you'll shoot me for that so I'll say most cities)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:46 PM

don't use capitals to show your anger at talking shite. it's bad manners.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:57 PM

Almost as bad as flaming. Laura is right foxes are being poisoned in cities and in the countryside, try telling the people who do it that it is illegal, that'll give them a good laugh, don't think it'll stop them doing it either!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:03 PM

bdh - but you can see I'm right. Just becasue something is the law - doesn't mean people don't break the law. Just look at saturday 19th!
Anyway - I'm disinvolving myself in this argument with you now. It's getting repetetive.

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:10 PM

you are also unable to articulate an argument that defends killing foxes for pleasure. Glad you admitted why it's done though. Tally ho .

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:14 PM

That's becasue there isn't an argument that defends killing foxes for pleasure.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:17 PM

so why were you bemoaning the fact that the ban came into force before you had a chance to try it? what part of killing animals for pleasure particularly whet your appetite?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:22 PM

*sigh*
It wasn't the killing I was interested in. It was the riding. fast. in good company.

To save you the trouble of your next probably post -
Yes I would go drag hunting but I've never seen a drag hunt organised around here.
Yes I expect there will be more organised now there is a hunting ban.
Yes I expect at some point in the future I will go on one.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:28 PM

congratulations then on your recent epiphany in discovering people can ride fast and in good company without a foxes death at the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:32 PM

I don't mean to be rude but I am quite bored with this repetetive and seemingly pointless loop we are stuck in.
Shall we just end it and agree to nod at each other from opposite sides of the room?
(at the hunt ball maybe?........... no sorry. I'm only joking)

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 06:08 PM

Look..as Tony would say. It's simple. There's us and there's them. Us don't hunt and couldn't imagine ever doing so, and there's them that do.
There's us that didn't vote for Thatcher and couldn't imagine ever doing so, and there's them that did.
There's us that don't eat meat, and there's them that do.
There's them and us, always have been always will be.
But by LAW and the will of the people as evidenced by their votes, we get our say on hunting.
We ask them to accept it as we've accepted their law.
That's democracy!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 06:17 PM

Hate to bore you, then don't make unbelievably crass statements such as, you wished you had a chance to experience a fox hunt before the ban came into force. And yes, you did make that crass statement.

And it took the legislation to come into force for you to realise, "Hey, maybe I can ride without being part of a fox hunt...what a radical concept?". People have been doing that for centuries laura, you should get out more.

So the legislation saved you from taking part in an activity that kills foxes for pleasure. Aren't you lucky, you wouldn't want that on your conscience would you.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 06:22 PM

bdh can you not conduct an argument or a discussion without talking down to or trying to belittle the other person? Sounds more like brow beating than discussing to me!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 06:27 PM

wtf!?!?
I'm sorry - I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about. Yeh sure I made that statement - I do wish I could have had a chance to ride in a fox hunt before they banned it. However it didn't happen.

Your other two statements - sorry. You've lost me.
Sure - I ride without hunting. Uhh... yeh. .... and?

And I don't know what's happening in the last statement. I think you are getting a little confused.

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 06:29 PM

Telling her to fuck off and grow up would have been belittling. Getting her to view the world through the holes in her argument was kinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 06:33 PM

Woah....hostility... :0)

I've got an idea....bring back hunting, but make it useful. Fox burgers....fox fur coats....(not faux fox fur coats)....rugs, curries, bras (hey, who knows? somebody out there must be hankering after a fox fur bra...)....maybe even wigs! I always wanted to be a redhead...

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 07:02 PM

"Telling her to fuck off and grow up would have been belittling. "

Nah, i reckon it'd just be a more stylish way to lose the argument...:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 02:09 AM

Just becasue something is the law - doesn't mean people don't break the law. Just look at saturday 19th!

Well yes - I am sure that I would have accidently broke a speed limit at some point, driving my car on that Saturday and every other day. But according to the reports that I read - no hunts were breaking the law on that day - openly or otherwise.

But the argument for you to choose to support or not now - is whether to waste time and energy in trying to make the inflicting this particular sporting cruelty - legal again. If all the criticsm levelled, considers that it was not worth all the political effort of introducing this law - it is surely not worth the same effort to change it. Or is this yet another double-standard for the pro-sporting-cruelty lobby to support?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 04:01 AM

*sigh*
The canard about the will of the people keeps getting trotted out. When did we get to exercise that will? Is the perceived will of the people always right (particularly on castrating rapists, burning paedophiles and hanging asylum seekers and Morris dancers)? Will someone answer that?
And the spin on the claim that >i>only six percent of the fox population is killed by hunting is daft. No-one is suggesting that the fox be made extinct. The point is to control a population to ensure that it does not cause economic or ecological damage. Six per cent is a lot of foxes. Annual culls of other species can sometimes take less than that (some deer herds on upland moors, for example). As a figure it's irrelevant when you actually look at it.
As for wasting time - do I waste my time on fighting the ban on foxhunting or the imposition of PELs? They've both pissed off a lot of people and both have stirred up a minority to rail at the government. It's a tough call!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 04:24 AM

Call the red herring police immediately officer!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Sgt Mackrell D. Gudgeon
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 04:43 AM

Hellew, hellew, hellew... What's all 'is 'ven

My gills have been drying out all day

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 05:26 AM

Well said Gervase. "democracy" my arse! "will of the people" my arse! What percentage of the electorate voted for this bunch of nannys? Wasn't it something like 42%?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 06:55 AM

more than voted for any other party, and that's how our system works!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 06:57 AM

The only true domocracy is proportional representation and you know it! Not likely to happen though is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 06:57 AM

300. Tally ho!