BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 05:52 PM

It seems to me that when there is an armed conflict between a strong power and a weak power, the weak power turns to terrorism and the strong power to massive retaliation. This was true of the Americans government and the Indians, the Nazis and the resistance, the English and the Irish....
It's certainly a lousy system, but I really can't see that either side is justified in its actions. And, sadly, the only way I can see of stopping it is through a force superior to both parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

I completely agree with you Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:05 PM

The question here isn't about "justification" as much as security in the long run... The perception is that Israel, while perhaps justified in some response, has over responded... This is not good for Israel in the long run because this perception by moderate Arab nations as well as non-Arab nations will not serve Israels in the long run... Yes, it will get votes for some hardliner candidtates but at what cost...

Israel needs to rethink its repsonse beyond "Well, Hamas is sending rockets at us"... Israel may very well be in midst of being sucked into a bad-PR trap here that may prove most costly than it can see...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:15 PM

A couple of interesting perspectives, from different angles of the spectrum:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/01/post.html

http://www.defenceandstrategy.eu/cs/aktualni-cislo-1-2008/clanky/ethics-war-and-human-rights.html

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: DougR
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

Bobert: why in the world would Israel give a "rat's you know what" about what the Arab countries think? There isn't a Arab country in the world that would not rejoice were Israel be blown out of existence.

I've said this before, and have seen, read or heard nothing that causes me to change my mind: "Peace" of some sort between Israel and Palestine MIGHT come when either Hamas has eradicated Israel or Israel has eradicated Hamas. Sad, but I think it is true.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:38 PM

Well, Dougie, because if I have it right Israel has enjoyed a peacful existence with many of it's former foes, Egypt being one... Israel doesn't need any to loose any of it's friends...

BTW, Dougie, word on the street is that Hamas was loosing support in Gaza before this occupation and Hamas has never had much support from the West Banl Palestinians... But everyday that Israel pounds away is another day where Hmas is gaining support and sympathy not only with Plaestinaians but with other peaceful Arab neigbors of Israel...

But back to your question... Rejoice???... I think that is too strong a sentiment if one thinks of human destruction that would occur if Israel were blown on the face of the earth... Me thinks that you are sterotyping people here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:53 PM

It doesn't help that the supposedly squeaky clean Fatah government of the west bank seems to be tacitly legitimizing the beatings, arrests and murders of members of Hamas.

Hamas don't represent a policy of any sort.

They represent the irrational, wild, wanton, destructive nature of Grief and Anger.


Until those children are listened to and given time to heal, their faces will scowl with hatred and their ears will not open.

Israel is dishing out revenge for 1000 years of european anti semitism on the palestinians and seems to know no mercy.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:37 PM

Lox, it really has nothing to do with revenge for "European Antisemitism". Look at a picture of any group of Israelis, and you will see very few European faces. Modern Israelis are an amalgam of people descended from Eastern and Western European, African and Semitic roots, and what happened to some of their ancestors in the 1930s and 1040s is important to them but not all-pervasive. What they want is the freedom to live in peace today, but it seems to most of them that a "measured response" accomplishes nothing. What is happening now, unfortunately, will also, in the final analysis, accomplish nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: DougR
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:54 AM

Boppie: Again, you miss my point. NO Arab country recognizes Israel's right to exist. Do you accept that? If not, which Arab country
does? If you cannot come up with one, you are only blowing smoke in this thread.

There will never be peace until either Israel or Hamas no longer exists.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:26 AM

All of the Arab countries have recognized Israel's right to exist... within the pre-1967 borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:51 AM

What can nearly everyone agree upon?

An humanitarian cease fire to save the innocent?

That this is a religious war in a turf war uniform?

That when you ravage, kill and starve a people as you would ravage dogs, they will become mean killers, not out of revenge but out of survivial?

That if you take a side, you are more of the problem than a solution?

That US arms makers are happy that new orders are coming in?



Be it for my one time silence and failure to act meaningfuly or my taking a vehement side in religious political turf wars, I am guilty of perpetuating savage murder and theft of the most horrible slaughter.

Would someone ask me for an answer or a solution they would scoff at my response. I believe ony a non violent protest of ALL the practicing relgious people of western and middle eastern religions can end this suffering.
Ghandi would be more eloquent and believable than i.

I am respondsibele.
Yes the 3rd Rich Germany is respondsible. YesYes even the Catholic religion which sought to end Judaism with the 700 year inquisions in horrid brutal tortures Protestants are respondsible. The Muslims are respondsible. The Jews worldwide are respondsible.

We have tried the predictable violent answers to conflict for millenia after millenia. We must now try the unpredictable but peaceful answer.




I repeat



What can nearly everyone agree upon?

An humanitarian cease fire to save the innocent?

That this is a religious war in a turf war uniform?

That when you ravage, kill and starve a people as you would ravage dogs, they will become mean killers, not out of revenge but out of survivial?

That if you take a side, you are more of the problem than a solution?

That US arms makers are happy that new orders are coming in?



Be it for my one time silence and failure to act meaningfully or my taking a vehement side in religious political turf wars, I am guilty of perpetuating savage murder and theft of the most horrible slaughter.

Would someone ask me for an answer or a solution they would scoff at my response. I believe ony a non violent protest of ALL the practicing relgious people of western and middle eastern religions can end this suffering.
Ghandi would be more eloquent and believable than i.

I am respondsible.
Yes the 3rd Rich Germany is respondsible. YesYes even the Catholic religion which sought to end Judaism with the 700 year inquisions in horrid brutal tortures Protestants are respondsible. The Muslims are respondsible. The Jews worldwide are respondsible.

We have tried the predictable violent answers to conflict for millenia after millenia. We must now try the unpredictable but peaceful answer.

Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:56 AM

......3000 miles.....

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:25 AM

I am to understand that John d'Kemsing scoffs at the proposed solution. Understandable but not constructive.

personal respondsibility is key. Like an oath one must accept the blame and respndsibility for war.
Some say act locally but think globally or that small is beautiful. When all moderates of all the religions respondsible today or historicly for religous combat unite in non violence protest, I believe only then can some good come.


Some are respondsible for rushing to war saying that it is best to attack now while the Bush administration gives its tacit support.

Some are respondsible for condemning Barak's silence while deferring to the current administration.

Some think they are right when everyone else are wrong.

We are all to blame. Perhaps you are to blame by six degrees of separation or a single act of peace deferred.

Personal respondsibility may only be a concept now but when embraced it offers unity and change.

Some of you may also see a parrallel in ancient religious teachings.
A peace process will be accelerated by a personification of the non violent protest similar to Ghandi but respected by every religion.

Perhaps it is you in some small way everyday. If it is, soon all of us can own the respondsibility for the wrong and work for what is right.

UTOPIAN words? Yes, assurdly they are. Yet it is better than accepting disoptia as the normal outcome and allow war to continue to spread and infect every person on the Earth unto death.

all i know is that this idea has defied bullets before.
It takes more than guns to kill a man, woman and child, the idea didn't die.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:21 AM

Gaza conflict spreads to Europe with Jews attacked
      
John Leicester, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 18 mins ago

PARIS – Signs are mounting that the conflict in Gaza is starting to spill over into violence in Europe's towns and cities, with assaults against Jews and arson attacks on Jewish congregations in France, Sweden and Britain.

Assailants rammed a burning car into the gates of a synagogue in Toulouse, in southwest France, on Monday night. A Jewish congregation in Helsingborg, in southern Sweden, also was attacked Monday night by someone who "broke a window and threw in something that was burning," said police spokesman Leif Nilsson. Neighbors alerted rescue services before the fire took hold.

Someone also started a blaze outside the premises last week. And on Sunday slogans including "murderers ... You broke the cease-fire" and "don't subject Palestine to ethnic cleansing" were daubed on Israel's embassy in Stockholm.

In Denmark, a 27-year-old Dane born in Lebanon of Palestinian parents is alleged to have injured two young Israelis last week, opening fire with a handgun in a shooting that police suspect could be linked to the Gaza crisis.

France has Western Europe's largest Jewish and Muslim communities and a history of anti-Semitic violence flaring when tensions in the Middle East are high. In 2002, some 2,300 Jews left France for Israel because they felt unsafe.

President Nicolas Sarkozy warned in a statement Tuesday that France would not tolerate violence linked to the Gaza crisis. A day earlier, his interior minister said she was concerned about the prospect of contagion and met with the heads of the two main Muslim and Jewish groups and police officials to stress the need to "preserve national unity."

Damage to the synagogue in Toulouse was limited to a blackened gate, and there were no injuries even though a rabbi was giving a course to adults inside, authorities said. They said unlighted gasoline bombs were also found in a car nearby and in the synagogue's yard. A local Jewish leader, Armand Partouche, said he believed the assailants had planned to torch the synagogue, but fled when the building's alarm went off.

"It could have been very, very serious," Partouche said in a telephone interview. "There were people inside; there could have been deaths."

He said Jewish leaders are asking Toulouse authorities for reinforced security for the city's synagogues.

"We really fear that anti-Semitism will spring up again and that the current conflict will be transposed to our beautiful French republic," he said.

In Britain, the Community Security Trust, a Jewish defense group, said it had seen a rise in anti-Semitic incidents since the start of Israel's offensive against Gaza. The group said it had recorded 20-25 incidents across the country in the past week that it believed were connected with Gaza, including an arson attempt on a synagogue in north London on Sunday.

London police are investigating the attack, in which suspects splashed flammable liquid on the door and set it on fire.

Community Security Trust spokesman Mark Gardner said that in another incident last week a gang of 15-20 youths walked along the main street in Golders Green, a largely Jewish neighborhood in north London, shouting "Jew" and "Free Palestine" at passers-by.

"It could get worse," Gardner said. "We tend to see these things happen in waves."

The government in Belgium on Tuesday ordered police in Antwerp and Brussels to be on increased alert after recent pro-Palestinian protests ended in violence and dozens of arrests. Police said burning rags were shoved through the mailbox of a Jewish home in Antwerp last weekend. Damage was limited and no arrests were made.

In the Danish shooting, one Israeli man was shot in the arm and another in the leg as they were selling hair care products in a shopping mall. Eli Ruvio, who owns the company that operated the stands, said his employees have been harassed by Muslim youths since they set up three kiosks in the shopping center in August.

"They kept cursing and shouting at us," Ruvio told The Associated Press. He added that the Muslim youths also threw mud and firecrackers at the employees and spat at them.

Ruvio recalled an episode Dec. 27 when some of the youths shouted "slaughter all the Jews."

"I told my employees not to speak in Hebrew and lie about where they come from, they should say there were from Spain or somewhere else. If people ask you where you are from, never say you're from Israel," he said.

----------------------------------------------------------------


Still waiting for the UN to enforce the terms of the 2006 Lebenon Ceasefire on the Arabs- or anyone other than the Israelis, for that matter.

Where are the kidnapped Israeli soldiers?

When will Hezboallah be disarmed? When will the weapons supply to Hezboallah be stopped?

And the UN wants to have another ceasefire, that only the Israelis are supposed to stop attacks, or give up anything?




Waiting to see articles of Moslims being assulted, and mosques in Europe being burned in protest over the Hamas rockets...

Oh, yeah, that only kills Jews, so we don't need to have any protests or reaction to them. And all Jews are to be assulted when Israel does anything you don't like, but no Moslims anywhere, including Gaza, have any responsibility for the actions of Hamas, the government of Gaza.

And if Hamas makes a military target in the middle of civilians, or a mosque, it is a crime to attack it, while the targetiing of an entire civilian population is fine as long as they are only Jews.


"In 2002, some 2,300 Jews left France for Israel because they felt unsafe."

Where are the demands for THESE people to get thier homes back?

Oh, yeah. Jews are not really fully human: they don't have any rights to life or property.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:42 AM

40 Palestinian civilians, including women and children ,were killed today when the school they were sheltering in was hit by Israeli shells.Yet another disgusting outrage commited by an occupying power that is specialising in blowing up schools,clinics, ambulances and apartment blocks.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:46 AM

The attacks on Jews in Europe prove that the actions of the government of Israel make Jews, both in Israel as well as worldwide LESS safe rather than more safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:47 AM

" and the rockets red glare, the bombs bursting in air
gave proof through the night that our flag was still there"

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:57 AM

Nothing like an exaggerated sense of their own past martyrdom to blind people to their present inhumanity to others, is there? Just focus on your own pain, BB, just focus on how everyone supposedly "hates the Jews" (which is not the case at all), the paranoid dream of persecution that keeps rolling around in your head, and you will never get it in your head why people are presently getting very angry about Zionist actions and policies in the last few decades in the Middle East.

Hitler felt that way too. He only saw the historical pain, humiliation, and suffering of Germans, supposedly at the hands of almost everyone else, and he couldn't grasp or relate to the pain and suffering of anyone else but his own people. You see where it led him. He brought the world down on his head eventually.

You won't see me here much at all on these threads, because it's a waste of my time. There's no use talking about it, and I know it. It's a futile endeavour. I'd rather focus on something positive. So don't expect me to hang around here and fight with you about it, because I am not going to.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:00 PM

I heard on BBC news that the UN gave Israel the GPS co-ordinates to prevent them attacking the school

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:16 PM

LH, Zionism hardly exists anymore, and hasn't since 1949, except as a pejorative used against Israeli policies. Even when it did, its primary purpose was to encourage emigration to land purchased in Palestine rather than the eviction of local residents. It is rather like calling any right-wing government or politician "fascist", whether or not what they advocate has any resemblance to the economic and political theories of fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:18 PM

'spose as they had the map reference,?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:09 PM

The attacks on Palestinians in Gaza prove that the actions of the government of Gaza make Palestinians, both in Gaza as well as worldwide LESS safe rather than more safe.


Just as true- but I notice you don't bother making THAT point.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:13 PM

I don't make that point because it's not true. I haven't heard any reports of Palestinians being targeted outside of Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem, and I haven't heard any reports about them being targeted by anyone except Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:16 PM

LH,

You, and others here, seem to miss the point. When it was Israeli civilians being killed, there were no demonstrations, no sense of outrage, no comment that a cease-fire was needed, no attacks upon random Moslims in other countries.

If a Jew dares to defend himself, he becomes a criminal and guilty, but no like effect is put upon those killing Jews.


Reality, not a dream. Look at the Lebenon Ceasefire terms- what parts have been implemented- and what parts ignored because they did not apply to Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:18 PM

And the whole reason I made that point to begin with is that people say the reason Jews need to have a Jewish state is because that's the only thing that will guarantee their safety. We know that not only does the Jewish state not guarantee anyone's safety, but it actually makes Jews less safe everywhere in the entire world. Nobody is making the argument that the Palestinians need a state of their own because it will make them safer. They need a state of their own because that's the only way they will have any rights on their own land.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

Israel gets scolded once again.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:15 PM

"They need a state of their own because that's the only way they will have any rights on their own land. "


They ( the Palestinians) HAVE had a state of their own, since 1923, when the ARAB MOSLIM HOMELAND was split off from Mandate Palestine, and Jews were forbidden to settle there.

ANd Jordan offered the Arab Moslims who fled Israel ( a small part of the total Moslim population) citizenship IF THEY RENOUNCED VIOLENCE.

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:16 PM

"I don't make that point because it's not true."

It is as true as YOUR statement- so YOU must be lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:19 PM

"In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of the proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning "across the Jordan River." The Palestinian Arabs now had THEIR homeland... the remaining 25% of the original Palestinian territory (west of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland."

Are you claiming this is not true? Please provide some evidence that Jordan does not exist: I have seem enough evidence that it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:23 PM

hetherblether,

you missed part of the report:

"The Israeli army said its soldiers came under fire from militants hiding in the school and responded. It accused Gaza's Hamas rulers of "cynically" using civilians as human shields."


Using the school as a military armed post is in violation of the Geneva Conventions, aned is a WAR CRIME.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:27 PM

"I haven't heard any reports of Palestinians being targeted outside of Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem, "

Yet the attacks on Jews ????


Seems like there is a slight bias being shown in the rest of the world, since it is claimed that Hamas is being criticised as well- Just very quietly, without any violence or demonstrations as seem to be appropriate against Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:50 PM

To Bearded Bruce

The Israeli military command have always said a great deal of guff after committing the most terrible of war crimes.

They have blown up several schools during the past week or so but I remember other Israeli attacks and massacres from Qana to the refugee camps of Shatilla and Sabra.

Time and time again in other invasions the Israelis have dropped their massive bombs on women and children or have strafed fleeing refugees with missiles or have stood guard while their fascist allies have gone in to do the wet work with knives and bayonets and grenades.
I dont know how you can begin to defend or justify this crew of well armed,well funded and ever so well spoken baby killers.

This time around the mass murder is coming into our homes via non Israeli channels and no wonder that the Israeli military is so keen to keep coverage controlled and sanitised. The world is seeing picture after picture of scores of babies,infants,young kids , teenagers and old ladies maimed and murdered bu US made and Israeli delivered bombs,shells and missiles.

Let us not forget that these civilians are being penned in like cattle to be slaughtered .They do not have anywhere to go.Israel even controls the sea and beaches and is more than prepared to drop a shell or two onto civilians on the beaches of Gaza.And only last week an Israeli gunboat rammed a cabin cruiser the size of my bathroom laden with...yes wait for it, medical supplies for the victims of the Israeli Defence Force [by the way that in itself is a bit of a misnomerisn't it].

Gaza is a giant prison of over a million people and its borders are sealed ,and have been sealed for 18 months by Israel contrary to international law.Israel has been waging collective punishment against a civilian population.

Hey, but this is nothing new! The state of Israel was founded on the ethnic clearances of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people many of whom ended up in Gaza .They're still killing these refugees and their children and grandchildren.It was founded on stolen land,stolen farms,erased villages and the theft of whole cities.

In the process Palestinians were murdered en masse in places like Deir Yassin.


I recount these things not to convince you Bearded Bruce but to remind other Mudcatters of the terrible fate that has befallen the Palestinian people since their exile in 1948.
Free Palestine!
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:58 PM

The people of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem do not have a state of their own on their own land, and the land that they are on is as much legally theirs as the land that Israel is on is legally Israel's. If Israel can use the United Nations as it's legal justification, so can the Palestinians, on top of the fact that those areas are also the Palestinians' by birthright.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:00 PM

My whole point in what I said about the targeting of Jews outside of Israel as opposed to the targeting of Palestinians outside of Palestine is that THE BEHAVIOR AND EVEN THE EXISTANCE OF ISRAEL AS A JEWISH STATE DOES NOT MAKE JEWS SAFER THAN THEY WOULD BE WITHOUT IT. That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp


Waiting on more statements that black is white, bad is good, and reality is not important to the discussion.


The Mandate Palestine was part of the same treatieas that formed Iran, Syria, Turkey, and other countries in that region- Yet the Jewish state is the only one that is supposed to keep giving away its land to others.


Again, I ask you to look at the Moslim population of Israel, and the Jewuish population of the other nations- then tell me about how the present Palestinian refugees have rights that you have denied to the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:13 PM

Israel currently occupies a much larger area than what it was given in the partition plan, and that's even before 1967...

http://www.mideastweb.org/palestine_partition_detail_map1947.jpg

Changing the subject of the rights of people to remain in their homes now will not work with me. What is needed is for Israel to complete the annexation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and give everyone currently living in those places, as well as in the rest of Israel, and their offspring, the same rights of citizenship and the exact same civil rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:35 PM

bb,

the site you linked to at "Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM" is excellent. Anyone with an open mind should check it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:56 PM

People whose minds are open to the concept of apartheid.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:01 PM

CarolC,

The 1947 borders were REJECTED by the Arab league, and a war fought.


Should I now claim the boundaries of the CSA as of 1860, and insist that the US give up that land?

There were Arab Moslims who did NOT flee as refugees: Israel welcomed them. Were are the Arab Jews that were driven out of the Arab Moslim nations?


Like Pakistan and India, the intent of the British Empire was for the population exchange to balance out the individual losses: If the Arab Moslims want to have their original property, there must be equity: Thaos Jews driven out must be restored and THEIR rights respected. How many troops are you willing to support to insure that?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:02 PM

BTW, it should be noted that in the Mandate, it was never intended that the part that was to include the Jewish homeland should be a Jewish state with a permanent Jewish majority. It was only intended for that part of the mandated territory to be a place where Jews would have a home. European Jews were supposed to be able to live there with the indigenous inhabitants, but as equals and not as rulers. So if we're going by the Mandate plan, Israel has no right to exist whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:04 PM

None of the Jews who left their countries of origin in the Middle East have any desire to return to those countries. If anyone can find some who do want to return, and they are not being allowed to by the governments of those countries, show me some documentation of their existence, and then we'll talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:31 PM

Why has Israel spent the last 8 months removing the cameras from the area?

What do they have to hide?

BBC journalists are reporting that the news blackout is a deliberate long term policy.

They have no doubt in their minds that this is part of a deliberate preparation for these events, which were planned long ago.


I am inclined to agree.


And as Israeli policy has been so deliberate in preventing access to information, it leaves me wonddering whether the Army's official line is true.


There is no need for a news blackout unless you have something to hide.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:33 PM

Hey, folks lets get real here on what is happening and what ain't...

Are any of you folks watchin' what ahppens when when of these Iranian built rockets land in Israel??? Well, I'd ussgest you look at the TV pictures... Nor much at all happens... Might of fact, so little happens that the Israeli's are able to collect them and show them off...

Hmmmmmmmmm???

I mean, these things are like somethin; from the 1800's... Sure, if you got hits by one that wouldn't be all that good but they don't knock sown buildings and they don't kill many folks at all...

That is reality...

Should Hamas shoot off these primitive things??? Well, heck no they shouldn't...

Now faat forward to the TV pictures of entire building bombed to the ground in Gaza... Now that, my friens, is fire power... No junior high school kids science experiement here...

And what is the current score??? Israel 650 Hamas 8???

This is the real story so now for:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

                         The Conclusion

Israel has over reacted and it is costing Israel dearly in a PR campaign that Hamas seems now to be winning... Israel'sa ctions ahve made it neither more safe or more trusted around the world... Hamas has played Israel like dupes and Israel is acting like dupes... This will bnot help Israel in the long run but is a major setback for Israel and jews throughout the world...

Stupid people...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:40 PM

Israel is a deeply racist state.Not only does it almost permanently attack the Palestinian refugees in all kinds of ways it is also discriminatory to those they call "Israeli arabs"who are Palestinians who live "legally" [and i use that in a guarded way ] in Israel.These Palestinian citizens make up 20 percent of the population but are kept in line by the Israeli state.

Moreover, the pre zionist Jewish community in Israel is also looked on in disfavour by those running the state who are often far more recent migrants [or the sons of migrants ] to Israel.

It must be very galling and indeed humiliating for a Palestinian grandad to be told to get out of his farm which his family have worked for generations , by some jumped up thug with an uzi who was born and raised in New York.

On the West Bank where tonight an Israeli spokesman claimed the Palestinians were being treated fairly we have seen Palestinians assassinated without warning by secret death squads. We have heard about Palestinian teenagers shot dead by rubber coated steel bullets.We have seen Palestinian villagers attacked in their homes by armed Israeli settlers while troops look on doing next to nothing. We have seen protestors against the Apartheid Wall being brutally beaten or attacked with staves and tear gas. We have see the Palestinian population of Hebron terrorised by armed thugs and so on.All this on the supposedly moderate West Bank.

However, even these awful crimes pale in comparison to the mass murder being committed in Gaza as a deliberate act of terror by the Israeli state.

The UN representatives are quite right to call for an INDEPENDENT investigation   into the killing of so many babies,children and civilians in the killing zone of Gaza.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:00 PM

Well, heather...

Be that fact or fiction doesn't much matter 'cause Israel has all but lost the PR war here and Hamas is infinately stronger and better supported than before this...

Like I said, "stupid people"...

Israel clearly doesn't get it and will pay a price for what they are doing...

Stupid people...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:47 PM

I wanta tell a little story here...

I was in the 8th grade and like 14 years old... Clarkie Crumbar was 17 and still in the 8th grade... In English class Clarkie Crumbar sucker puched me and blood went all over...

Ya' see, Clarkie Crumbar was 3 years older than any kid in the school and so he was the top bully...

So two weeks after he hit me I decided that ity was my turn so right there in gym class, where I figured that the gym tewachers would bust up a fight, I walked up to Clarkie and hit him as hard as I could in his face...

Well, he beat the crud outta me before the gym taechers could get him off me but guess what???

From then on I had the respect of the entire school, from teachers on down...

I am afraid that Israel has become the Clarkie Crumbar on the world's stage... Yeah, it can beat up folks but is that really serving it's interests???

I think not...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:56 PM

I sure do miss scenes like this.

Sadat learned to be practical & reasonable.... look what it got him.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:59 AM

Simon Assaf has an excellent article in this week's Socialist Worker [UK ]explaining Israel's recent terror tactics against Palestine.It can be read online.
He shows how time and time again Israel broke the recent ceasefire and rejected proposals from the Palestinians for a more lasting settlement.
The siege of Gaza even before the air attack and ground invasion meant terrible suffering for its poulation with power stations destroyed,food in scarce supply [some families reduced to eating grass ] manutrition,physchological damage ,water shortages and raw sewage in the street from collapsed pipes and damaged pumping stations.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:34 AM

If you want the support of the United Nations, most of the world, and the Western media, the formula is quite simple. All you have to do is as follows:

1. Start by having a founding document that has as its central purpose the perpetration of genocide.

2. Then attack your neighboring country by firing rockets at the civilian population, in violation of international law.

3. Hide your rockets and other terrorist equipment in homes and other location where there are many civilians, to maximize the death and injury count when lawful and necessary defensive measures are taken to neutralize your illegal activity, another violation of international law. When your own people are thus murdered by your own acts, you can use it for propaganda purposes.

You can be sure the Western media will run as many pictures of the dead and injured (for which you are responsible) in a fashion designed to generate sympathy for your position, and that same Western media will be largely uninterested in the civilian casualties caused in the neighboring country by your terrorism.

4. Exaggerate and lie at every opportunity to inflate the number of civilian casualties in your own land (for which you are responsible by hiding military facilities in civilian locations). That's for the benefit of the Western media, which will of course publish and eat up any exaggeration or fabrication you care to pass along. Even if you have a long history of exaggerating and lying on such matters as civilian casualties, the Western media will continue to take your claims at face value.

5. When your neighbor responds to your illegal, genocidal attacks, appeal to the U.N. and world opinion for a cease-fire so you can rearm and get ready to slaughter and murder civilians in new ways and with greater ferocity, as soon as you want to end the cease-fire.

6. Instead of building your own economy and helping your own people, put all your resources into terrorist attacks against your neighbor and divert the humanitarian aid that flows into your land to your own program for genocide, aggression and terror.

7. When your economy turns sour — which it will do inevitably because your first priority is war and terror and not nation building, which is your last priority — and when it is further damaged by the measures of self-defense taken by your neighbor, claim there is a "humanitarian crisis" and a cease fire and more aid is urgently required.

8. Continue your endless attempts to slaughter and butcher civilians, including those of your neighbor and even those of your own people for propaganda purposes, and then claim any self-defense measures taken by your neighbor are "disproportionate."

9. Continue to violate every international law on the books, making a mockery not only of law but also of the most basic precepts of humanity and civilization, and then claim your neighbor, who is compelled to act in self-defense, is committing "war crimes."

By now, I'm sure you know this memo was a precise description of Hamas and its genocidal campaign against Israel, and the reaction of the United Nations, of much of world opinion and of the nations of the world, and of the Western media. To say what is happening is outrageous is a gross understatement, and stronger terms must be resorted to, such as an outbreak of international insanity. The world and the media seem to be on the side of genocide and terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:48 AM

Have you noticed how this dreadful carnage going on in Gaza and Israel has put MUGABE on the back pages. Lucky him!!
Also, unless I am mistaken, I do not hear the voice of China and other far Asian nations expressing their desire to see a cessation.