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BS: I voted for Obama, but...
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: oggie Date: 11 Nov 11 - 01:46 PM You do what most of us do in "democracies", hold your nose, cross your fingers, vote for the least worst candidate (in your opinion) and hope. Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Nov 11 - 02:20 PM What you need to do, Don, is actively cease supporting ANY politician or party who lies to you and leads you down the garden path to war, bankruptcy, and disaster. Protest what they are doing! Refuse to accept it any longer. Make them hear you! That, I believe, is what the OWS movement is about, is it not? That's how revolutions happen. People refuse to believe in a ruling system any longer, and they refuse to give it their tacit support any longer by doing what it wants them to do. A revolution can be violent. Or it can be non-violent. I recommend a nonviolent revolution, because I think that is the only sane way forward, and the only one that will not lead inevitably to something far worse than our present situation. I do not expect any political party to achieve that revolution. Not a chance, in my opinion. I expect nonpartisan action by individual people to achieve it. As far as I'm concerned, political parties have become as outmoded and downright pernicious as the old practice of the Divine Right of Kings which preceded them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 11 Nov 11 - 02:26 PM LH, he is incapable of living in the truth. He thrives on promoting bullshit, and misquoting people's statements, so he can lie even more, as a solution, to what he lied about them saying!...Jeeez, you know that! Gotcha' covered! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 11 Nov 11 - 03:05 PM Good answer, Little Hawk. One of the very hopeful things about the nationwide--worldwide--Occupy Wall Street movement is that there are enough people who have bloody-well had it with being had that a voter's strike is becoming a distinct possibility. In short, "None of the above!!" The whole systen has to be changed. Strict regulation of campaign financing, make bribery of public officials in any form (money, promises of a good job at the end of one's term, any form of consideration for favors done) a fine and prison offense, AND the institution of preferential or instant run-off voting. This is just a start. Other measures would include the re-institution of many of FDR's "alphabet soup agencies" such as the Securities and Exchange Commission (NOT to include Wall Street bankers as it does now, since Ronald Reagan set out ot gut them, and the other regulatory agencies FDR put in place. One of the things that has been made plain by the OWS demonstrations is the many of the participants had great hopes for Barack Obama, voter for him, and have since been sorely disappointed by his performance. Or lack of performance. Much of it is not his fault, since the Republican Congress has done everything it can to block everything he has tried to do, wanting him to fail, no matter how it screws up the rest of the country. When someone came to FDR with their grievances and what they wanted him to do about it, he said, "I totally agree with you. Now, MAKE me do it!" That's what we have to do with Obama. Give him a spine transplant and MAKE him do it! OWS can do that! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: akenaton Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:14 PM You forget that it was not only the bankers who caused the system to fail, most of us bought into it, eager to believe any lie that would make as a few dollars better off. You have a mountain to climb and a global mindset to change. Only unity can facilitate it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:27 PM I didn't forget anything, Ake. Been around awhile, and I know what's going on. And I'm fully aware of the sort of "unity" you're talking about. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:32 PM Akenaton: "You forget that it was not only the bankers who caused the system to fail,..." Yeah, they needed to do 'business' with some very corrupt politicians to accommodate them!!! With that in mind: Don Firth: "I didn't forget anything, Ake. Been around awhile, and I know what's going on. And I'm fully aware of the sort of "unity" you're talking about." Oh! the wonders of politics! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: akenaton Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:42 PM As I thought GfS, They are no more serious about "change" than their fallen hero Mr Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:44 PM We are definitely on the same page, Don, if I can go by your last post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 11 Nov 11 - 06:31 PM That's pretty much it, Little Hawk. I do like to seek ways to solve the problems, as overwhelming as they appear to be. Granted, they DO seem pretty overwhelming, but historically speaking civilizations have been here before and managed to dig their way out of it. I'm confident that we can too. As long as we don't just give up. Contrary to the chonic nay-sayers, OWS is a hopeful sign. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 11 Nov 11 - 10:24 PM By not voting one is allowing for the worst of two choices to further the grip the fascists have on our country... One party, if they had the power would end Social Security throwing tens of millions of old people into poverty... One party would reduce the tax rates to the point where there would be insufficient resources to do anything... That party is the Republican Party... Of course the MudOstriches say, "Screw it, just let it happen"... No thanks to head-in-the-sand-classless-and-free thinkers here... They are as wrong as wrong can be... The Dems may not be great but they offer a framework for bringing about a better country without the blood... And then they came for me... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 12 Nov 11 - 12:19 AM Bobert, You just articulated the FEARS that 'they' are foisting upon either side...so 'they' come up with the 'solution' that will be to the 'appeasement' of both sides...but WE will have NO say in it....and it won't be the one that leaves us free!...if that matters.... GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Nov 11 - 12:49 PM Yup. They play people like violins by using "the good cop" (the Democratic Party) and "the bad cop" (the Republicans) to instill fear in 2 sets of confused and reactive voters. Some people fear "the good cop". They are afraid that he will bring in socialism, "tax and spend", raise their taxes, coddle criminals and illegal immigrants, encourage abortion, take God off the dollar bill, weaken the military, etc..... (Hilarious. And pathetic.) Those people vote Republican because they deeply fear what the Democrats may do once in office. Their fear is based on a long tradition and a ceaseless flow of propaganda designed to encourage those fears. Other people fear "the bad cop", the Republicans. They are afraid that he will privatize their public institutions, destroy Medicare, give away more money to the rich, persecute minorities, deny women their civil rights, increase draconian police powers, force schools to teach creationism, launch more insane wars overseas, etc... (SCARY!) Their fear is based on a long tradition and a ceaseless flow of propaganada designed to encourage those fears. The "bad cop" can easily be swept into office by inflaming the right set of fears...specially the fear that the USA is not standing up to a dire "foreign threat", because the "bad cop" is so military in stance that he looks like George Patton addressing the troops. However...the "bad cop" has a way of totally screwing things up sooooo badly if given the chance to wield power that presently the public realizes they've been had! Or at least a majority of them realize it. Then there is a rush to repudiate the "bad cop" and bring in the "good cop"...and we see a huge swing over to the Democrats. That happened in 2008. Then the "good cop" proceeds to advance basically the same agenda that the "bad cop" is normally engaged in, but pretends not to be doing it. And the public is had once again. Presently they realize they've been had, and they kick the "good cop" out of office, and the "bad cop" returns, and the whole ugly business rolls on into its next stage of... coddling the rich elite destroying the middle class abandoning the poor encouraging public divisions over "hot" issues (like abortion and religion) fighting unjust wars building more prisons increasing police powers and domestic surveillance The "bad cop" does it openly and proudly. The "good cop" does it, but pretends not to be doing it. This is a game the public can't win at the ballot box, given the present means of financing political campaigns and lobbying in Washington. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 12 Nov 11 - 04:38 PM Very good...with one addendum.....they change the names back and forth, as to 'good cop' and 'bad cop'...but somehow things never get changed BACK to independence and freedom!..The ever controlling noose of the Federal government, in bed with globalist tyrants, just keeps getting tighter!.... So, who's to blame?....the knot, or the rope?????? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 12 Nov 11 - 05:09 PM Twiddle dee and twiddle dum... Not one single plan of their own... Just the same ho hum... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Nov 11 - 05:40 PM I already clearly stated my plan, Bobert, in my post of: 11 Nov 11 - 02:20 PM Read it. And consider how they do elections in Cuba. I've spoken of that before, in detail. You can look it up on Google by googling "Cuban electoral system". Something like that is my plan. It can only be done if millions of individual people change their basic beliefs and assumptions about how to fairly organize a democratic election. And that will take time....and suffering, because until people are suffering, they simply can't be bothered to alter an existing status quo. They'd rather sleep, and repeat old behaviour...while expecting a different result. That's the definition of insanity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 12 Nov 11 - 06:28 PM That not a plan, LH... That is what you'd like to see as an end game... How do you get there??? That's the BIG question??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Sawzaw Date: 13 Nov 11 - 08:29 AM "A 2nd term Obama can be a progressives dream" Some of us live in a dream. Some of us live in reality. "elections in Cuba" A sterling example of an oxymoron. Which world does LH live in? Human Rights Watch Cuba: Stop Imprisoning Peaceful Dissidents The conviction of six dissidents in summary trials for doing no more than exercising their fundamental rights highlights the continuing abuse of the criminal justice system to repress dissent in Cuba, Human Rights Watch said today. Raúl Castro's government should immediately release the prisoners, who were given sentences ranging from two to five years in prison, and cease all politically motivated repression against Cubans who exercise their fundamental freedoms, said Human Rights Watch. Four people were sentenced on May 31, 2011, in Havana for distributing pamphlets criticizing Raúl and Fidel Castro, and two human rights defenders in Holguín were sentenced on May 24, charged with "insulting national symbols" and "disorder" for public acts that they denied had taken place. "With this new round of prosecutions, the Castro government is sending a clear message to dissidents that the status quo has not changed in Cuba," said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. "Publicly criticizing the government can still earn you a harsh prison sentence." Luis Enrique Labrador, 33; David Piloto, 40; Walfrido Rodríguez, 42; and Yordani Martínez, 23, were sentenced in Havana on May 31 on charges of contempt and public disorder. An official document addressed by the state prosecutor to the Criminal Court of Havana, a copy of which was obtained by Human Rights Watch, said the four were detained on January 14, when they went to Havana's Revolutionary Square and threw leaflets into the air with slogans such as "Down with the Castros." When agents of the National Revolutionary Police arrived at the scene, the four men sat down on the ground, an act the prosecutor deemed "a defiant and provocative attitude...that interrupted the traffic flow." Martínez was sentenced to three years in prison, while the other three were each sentenced to five years, according to their families and human rights defenders in Cuba. Family members told Human Rights Watch that state security agents had visited their homes the day before the trial, warning relatives that if they "created a scene" and called attention to the hearing, the detainees would be left in pretrial detention indefinitely. One man's mother said she was fired in April on the grounds that she was "the mother of a counterrevolutionary." The families also told Human Rights Watch that Martínez and Piloto went on hunger strike in May in Valle Grande prison to demand they be put on trial. In response, they later told their families, they were handcuffed and beaten by a prison official. In a taped interview with a Cuban human rights defender, Juan Carlos Gonzalez Leiva, which was later replayed for Human Rights Watch, Rodríguez called the trial a "a mockery." He said the judge simply rubber-stamped the prosecutor's recommended punishment, ignoring the defendants' arguments in their defense. Elizardo Sanchez, the director of the Cuban Commission on Human Rights and National Reconciliation, an independent human rights group not recognized by the Cuban government, told Human Rights Watch that state security agents surrounded the local courthouse where the trial took place, preventing human rights defenders and other members of the public from attending. On May 24, Marcos Maikel Lima Cruz, 33, and Antonio Michel Lima Cruz, 28, brothers who were members of a human rights group in Holguín called Pedro Luis Boitel - were sentenced to three and two years in prison respectively in a closed, summary trial. Their father, the independent journalist Marcos Antonio Lima Dalmau, said the two were arrested on December 25, 2010. Lima Dalmau, who was allowed to attend his sons' trial, said they were accused of insulting national symbols and causing public disorder for allegedly dancing naked in front of their house, and spitting, urinating, and stepping on a Cuban flag, which both denied. Human Rights Watch believes that the charges were fabricated to prosecute the brothers in retaliation for their human rights work. Lima Dalmau said that one of the witnesses who testified in their trial - a neighbor - said he had accompanied police when they inspected the brothers' home, and had seen the flag hanging undamaged on a wall. Cuba's laws empower the state to criminalize virtually all forms of dissent, and grant officials extraordinary authority to penalize people who try to exercise their basic rights. The Cuban Criminal Code penalizes anyone who "threatens, libels or slanders, defames, affronts or in any other way insults or offends, with the spoken word or in writing, the dignity or decorum of an authority, public functionary, or his agents or auxiliaries." The violations are punishable by one to three years in prison, if directed at high ranking officials. Such laws violate the right to freedom of expression recognized in article 19 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights - signed by Cuba in 2008. "The dissidents were prosecuted on the basis of their political beliefs, and because they dared to exercise rights that all Cubans should enjoy," Vivanco said. "They should never have even been tried, let alone convicted." |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: GUEST,999 Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:10 PM I agree with Sawzaw that Obama isn't the answer. The rest of that most recent post is blather that while likely true does bugger all to forward the discussion on this thread, imo. The present problem is in the coming election. The need is to change congress, because it matters little who the president is. Too many people here on both sides of the issue/equation are frustrated with a president who has been able to achieve very little. Some ascribe it to unwillingness on his part, some to darker intentions, and still others bring in all the bad things Obama has done by not being able to overturn decades of crappy politics in Washington, DC. The USA, if it has any intention of surviving as a country has to begin electing free agents, that is, people not with one or the other party. I think Bernie Sanders would win as an independent. Before anyone cries, "No he would lose his voice in the senate", think, please. He has no voice anyway. Why do you not want elected officials who belong to no party and who owe allegiance to only one group of people: the voters? In short words, eff the Repubs and eff the Dems. As for remarks made by Nader, he did great work against large corporations. I hope he runs for the senate so he can effect some decent change. Please, start looking at who could run as independents and start asking them to do so. The two-party system has to be broken. imo |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Greg F. Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:49 PM Agreed, Bruce, that Obama isn't the answer. However, absent a Sanders Presidency - 'tis a consumnation devoutly to be wish'd, but a practical impossibility - Obama is preferable to any of the circus of lunatics proposed by the Republicans. Its a shame, but there it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: GUEST,999 Date: 13 Nov 11 - 01:10 PM IMO, it matters not one jot or tittle who the president is. It matters who sits in the House and the Senate. At present, there isn't a single Republican who shines. Much the same can be said of the Democrats (although I'm not aware of who will be running for the Democratic Party presidential nomination). |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Nov 11 - 01:46 PM My comments were regarding the Cuban electoral process, Sawzaw, not a blanket statement on every single possible incident of justice or injustice in the entire Cuban experience. Yes, there are some injustices in Cuba. Every nation has some incidents of injustice in its so-called "justice" system, the USA and Canada included. That wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about how their electoral process works, how they select candidates, run an election, how they vote, campaign, etc. I suggest you look it up on Google...easily done by merely googling "Cuban electoral system". What they do is what WE should be doing if we want a truly representative and honest electoral process. If you're not afraid to be confronted by an uncomfortable truth that you are apparently completely unacquainted with, you'll do it now... ;-) (not bloody likely, I expect) |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 13 Nov 11 - 03:53 PM I HAVE looked up the Cuban electoral system, Little Hawk, and combed through a whole mess of information. What I have found boils down to two salient, unavoidable points: 1. It's a one-party system; andIn what way does that differ substantially from the system we actually have here in the U. S.? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Nov 11 - 01:05 PM Don, there is no political party involved in selecting or running candidates in Cuba. Here is an article which explains how it works: Cuban electoral process Read that. Give it consideration as to what would happen if we in Canada, the USA, and other western "democracies" had the sense to conduct elections in a similar fashion and get political parties themselves out of the process entirely! We would, by golly, have very inexpensive, simple, and uncorrupted elections, and our chances of creating a truly representative and honest government would go up by about 500%, in my opinion. **** You are correct that the Cuban republic identifies itself as a One-party system, but that party does not select the candidates who run in Cuban elections. The ordinary public selects the candidates, in a free and completely open manner. Your comment that the USA actually has a One-Party system is apt...and quite correct. It's the USA-ian Corporatist/Military Party, in truth, but it masquerades as 2 separate parties, Democrats and Republicans, and DOES control the selection of candidates and makes them beholden to corporate funding from the getgo, so that once in office they will serve the Corporatocracy. That's pretty much the diametrical opposite of what is done in Cuba, where elections are extremely inexpensive, where candidates run on their individual merits and record, NOT on party affiliation, and NOT with any financial advantage over competing candidates. The only advantage a candidate can have in Cuba over another candidate aiming for the same office is this: Do the voters in that region have greater confidence in his or her honesty and abilities than they do in the other candidates for that office? If so, he or she will win. That's it. Period. There is no way to corrupt and subvert a system as simple and transparent as that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 14 Nov 11 - 03:18 PM Thanks for posting the link, Little Hawk. I hadn't found that one in my search. Might could be! I gave it a quick scan, but I'll go back and read it more thoroughly. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: akenaton Date: 14 Nov 11 - 04:06 PM Excellent article LH.....and I endorse it 100%. Such a system requires a leader who can be viewed as incorruptible. In Fidel Castro the Cuban people have found an example in pure gold. The worth of such a leader is not measured in material possessions, we must all learn that lesson if we are to construct a better society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Amos Date: 14 Nov 11 - 04:43 PM Pish and tush. Those of you who have the option of voting for Obama should absolutely do so. The alternatives are too disgusting to contemplate. At the very least, in Obama, you have a man of intelligence and a desire to move things forward and make them better. Why would you want to forward the suppression of the whole nation for the benefit of a small fraction of it? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Nov 11 - 05:05 PM I am not saying to anyone that they should NOT necessarily vote for Mr Obama, Amos. If you believe in him, and you think he's the better alternative to someone else, then by all means...vote for him. What I am saying, however, is that ALL the western democracies...not just yours...need to reform their electoral systems in such a way that we don't get just "the best candidate money can buy" instead of the person who really IS the best candidate. To do that, our electoral systems have to be set up very differently from the way they are now, and I'm suggesting that the Cubans have a model with some very good features in it, features that we could just as well work into our own electoral systems if people had the vision and the will to do it. If people are kept ignorant of possible alternatives to the electoral status quo, then they'll be just like a monkey who cannot see the bars of his own cage. He imagines himself to be "free", but he is not. Cubans are not free either. No one in this world lives in a truly free system, everyone's inside a sort of cultural cage with bars they can't see...or they refuse to acknowledge...but the Cubans HAVE managed to create a simple, honest, nonpartisan, and open electoral system that is not corrupted by hidden payoffs and corporate funding of the candidates. That is one thing they have that we ought to pay very close attention to. People can't pay attention to it if they are never even told about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: GUEST,999 Date: 14 Nov 11 - 06:47 PM Much as I hate to say it, I think Amos is right. However, I do wish Bernie Sanders would step into the ring this time 'round. And if wishes was fishes . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Songwronger Date: 14 Nov 11 - 08:28 PM Since when does intelligence have anything to do with politics? And if Obama's so smart, how come he freezes when his teleprompters go down? Obama told me (and the rest of us voters) that he would close the prison at Guantanamo. So what does he do? "Instead of shuttering the notorious Guantanamo Bay prison as promised, President Barack Obama has upped the stakes. For the first time, a detainee faces execution if convicted at an offshore military tribunal on the U.S. naval base in Cuba." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/worldview/obamas-revamps-tested-in-nashiri-trial-at-guantanamo-bay/article2231966/ Oh, yeah, we need that Cuban system here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 14 Nov 11 - 09:44 PM Obama went 2 hours with the entire Republican caucus without teleprompter and tore them a new one... Next ObamaHateBrigade garbage... Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 14 Nov 11 - 09:48 PM "And if Obama's so smart, how come he freezes when his teleprompters go down?" That is a load of fetid dingo's kidneys. Not true! Obama is an excellent extemporaneous speaker. I don't know how that crap got started, but it comes from the same garbage can as the "birther" lie and "Obama is really a Muslim," and the rest of that collection of libels and slanders. Pure hate-mongering. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Songwronger Date: 14 Nov 11 - 10:58 PM Hitler was a bright guy too. Did that make him the most qualified for the job? I could post links to video of Obama standing, waiting while they fix his teleprompters, but we all know the score on that. And why hasn't Obama closed the prison at Guantanamo? He's the president. That would be easy enough to do. Did the Republicans block him on that one? Obama's a sociopathic liar, same as George W. Bush. They were cut from the same cloth. They work for the same team. They tell you the same lies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 14 Nov 11 - 11:18 PM Oh, the old Hitler defense, songwronger??? Gets you a 2 on the 10 scale in Basic Debating 101... Okay... Maybe a 1.... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Songwronger Date: 14 Nov 11 - 11:37 PM Supporting Obama the Unproven was acceptable, but not Obama the Killer. Why the hell would you defend a piece of garbage like him? If you support him now, you support his policies. He said he was going to close Guantanamo, but he's upped the torture there and now he's going to carry out a little tribunal murder. Why would you defend behavior like that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Nov 11 - 12:58 AM Fear of the Republicans, Songwronger. That is what drives many here to support...or overlook...some of the things Obama is doing. It is their intense fear that he will be replaced by another Republican administration, so they feel they MUST support him no matter what! That's how the old 2-Party gambit works. You scare the hell out of each half of the American public by making them fear that the guy whom the other half is supporting will get elected...at any given time. It works great too, because those frightened people get on Internet forums and foam away at each other over their partisan fears and the great imperial machine rolls merrily on, no matter which party gets elected. This may be partly why the Soviet Union collapsed. They didn't have the wit to split their monolithic One-party system into 2 separate and officially opposed Communist parties! .....a "liberal" Communist party and a "conservative" Communist party....and they could have done so! If they had, they could have perpetually turned the anger of the Russian people on each other over the 2-party divide, and they might well still be in power, but with only ONE MONOLITHIC Politburo in place, the people's anger turned on that monolith...and they brought it down. This doesn't change the fact that there really were liberal Russian Coummunists and conservative Russian Communists, but like I say: they didn't make it into an official 2-party divide. If they had, they could have played one half of the Russian public against the other half just like it's done with Republicans and Democrats in the USA...and no one could have accused them of NOT having "democratic" elections either! What you have in the USA is two Capitalist parties. They look so alike to the rest of the world, once in office, that it's laughable...but the choice between them supposedly guarantees "democracy". Ha! A good joke, that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 15 Nov 11 - 01:46 AM I will not lower myself to debate with Songwronger. Comparing a political figure that one does not like to Hitler is the unmistakable mark of a person in the grip of irrational hatred. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Nov 11 - 02:10 AM He was making a point about intelligence not being the only benchmark of good leadership, not equating Obama with Hitler...but I find that people do this automatic reflex thing of comparing basically ANY politician they are really against to Hitler in some way or another...and it's generally an unwise thing to do...it arouses equally extreme responses. That's because Hitler has become the automatic mental example of "ultimate bad politician" to people the world over. It's never wise to name him in connection with some present politician, because it just distracts from serious analysis of a situation by reducing it to a huge stereotype. For example, every time the USA decides to "get" some foreign bad guy, he is compared in the American media to who? To Hitler, of course! This happened with Saddam Hussein, Muammar Gadhaffi, and it has been done with Ahmadinejad too. It's an equally lazy and predictable label no matter who uses it on whom, as far as I can see, because there's so much historical baggage attached in people's minds to Hitler as the symbol of ultimate evil that the conversation gets derailed the moment his name comes up. Stalin was probably just as bad or worse than Hitler. Pol Pot was probably worse than both of them...though he affected a much smaller area of the world. Regardless of that, the name "Hitler" remains the ultimate insult, the ultimate provocation, the ultimate word to cause rational discussion to cease and people to go totally off the deep end in their responses to each other. It's like calling someone "Satan"...it kind of precludes having any kind of worthwhile conversation about the subject. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Stringsinger Date: 15 Nov 11 - 12:49 PM Obama has made himself irrelevant. Our leaders in the US are corrupted. Democracy is now in the hands of the Patriots of the Occupy movement. The war is widening from Afghanistan to Pakistan. Drones are killing innocent people. Veterans are discovering that they have been had. Transnational Corporations are ignoring human rights. Obama has lost his credibility along with the Democratic Party. He has betrayed us by his promises of which he never delivered. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 15 Nov 11 - 03:59 PM A little background on technology, folks: Since its invention a half-century ago, the teleprompter has been used by news anchors, newscasters, actors, comedians, and just about everyone else who appears in front of a television camera—including presidents and presidential candidates, Republicans and Democrats alike. The purpose, of course is to strive for precision and accuracy in their speeches. The teleprompter substitutes for written text on a piece of paper. The story that Abraham Lincoln read from his notes for his Gettysburg Address on the back of an envelope is not just legendary. It is true. The used envelope he wrote the speech on still exists. When master speech-maker Franklin D. Roosevelt came on the air with his "Fireside Chats" in the 1930s and 40s, he read from copy that he had written himself. No one could criticize him for reading from a prepared text for the simple reason that they couldn't see him reading. But anyone with a brain cell knew that speeches that cohesive and precise had to have been written ahead of time, even if FDR did deliver them in a friendly and informal manner. Prior to the teleprompter, "cue cards" were used. Someone would stand next to the television camera with a "deck" of poster-size cards on which the script was hand-printed in large, dark block letters. These were commonly used on entertainment shows, and frequently when they switched cameras on shows like "The Andy Williams Show" and "The Glen Campbell Good Time Hour" you could catch occasional glimpses of one of the crew holding up a cue card with song lyrics and/or gag lines on it. As the entertainer finished what was on one card, it was dropped or handed to someone else and the next card was held up. In 1959, when Patti McLaughlin and I did the television series, "Ballads and Books," on Seattle's KCTS Channel 9, the producer asked us if we wanted cue cards. Since we had sung the songs dozens if not hundreds of times, we declined. But had we been delivering a lecture or political speech where we wanted to make certain that we had covered all the salient points, we would most certainly have opted for cue cards—or these days, a teleprompter. As it was, when we talked about the history and background of the material we were singing, it was in answer to questions posed to us (the "experts") by Buzz Anderson, who emceed the shows—and who had the script in his hands. Prior to the invention of the teleprompter, news anchors such as Walter Crokite, Chet Huntley and David Brinkley, and Edward R. Murrow could be seen with typed scripts in their hands, unobtrusively glancing at the script, but keeping their eyes focused on the camera as much as possible. Now, you see news anchors and reporters looking at the camera. Or just to the side of the lens, where the teleprompter is located. Criticism of former President Ronald Reagan's teleprompter use was that he was merely mouthing stuff written for him by gofers, something Reagan had been conditioned to do during his years as TV spokesperson for General Electric. Concealing Reagan's teleprompter use was deceptive. As a law school lecturer, President Obama would not have used a teleprompter. From that, it appears that he is not used to reading as a substitute for speaking his thoughts ex tempore. By attempting to capitalize on such trivia, Republican candidates demonstrate how little of substance they really have to talk about. By citing such childish irrelevancies and trumpeting that they won't be using such technological aids, Republican hopefuls may be shooting themselves in the foot. We've already seen some pretty hilarious—and highly revealing—examples of disorganized thinking from people like (presumably) former candidate Sarah Palin, and more recently Rick Perry's monumental "OOPS!" There will be more to come, I'm sure. Excellent fodder for stand-up comics and "Saturday Night Live" skits! Those who keep repeating canards about Obama's presumed "dependence" on teleprompters (not the case at all), and comparing him with Hitler (a stupid and mean-spirited piece of hate-mongering at best) reveal the nature of their own character and more than amply demonstrate that they have nothing of substance to talk about. Don Firth P. S. As to Obama's irrelevancy, could anyone do any better when faced with the Congress that he has had to deal with? If so, who? |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bobert Date: 15 Nov 11 - 07:08 PM We have seen first hand that the Republicans aren't bluffing... They ***are*** radical and they will kill stuff impulsively to impress their Koch brother funders... It ain't paranoid if they are out to get you and the current Republican party is out to trash the New deal... Now the "classless and free" ostriches here hang on their bullshit ***both sides*** narrative... These two are like stuck records with no real understanding of just how close the Republican Party is to disassembling the American Society... This ain't about "fear"... It's 100% about reality... "And then they came for me"... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Songwronger Date: 25 Mar 12 - 11:23 PM I voted for him because he promised to end the wars, but he lied on that. Then he got all severe and went to work on gutting America's social services: How Obama Tried to Sell Out Liberalism in 2011 And now he's wallowing in the death of Trayvon Martin. He's such a media hog. I can understand Al Sharpton making a big deal out of the shooting because that's how he pays the bills, but Obama...he's the president, and he out-lowlifes Sharpton and Jackson and all the rest put together. "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon." So disgusting. And FAR beyond any political explanation. He has the black vote sewn up, so why the crocodile tears? I've come to the conclusion that Obama is insane. On a par with George W. Bush. I mean, Obama's narcissism is SO INTENSE that he uses that poor family's grief to strut and preen and draw all eyes to himself. That is FAR beyond bad taste. It's...insanity. But it won't be next year. If things go according to plan, the DSM will decommission narcissism as a mental illness. This looks suspiciously like a nod to our over-the-top narcissistic leader. This would be like the Italian equivalent of the American Psychiatric Association telling Mussolini back in the thirties that he's the picture of health. Such quackery. Obama's nuttier than a squirrel's winter den. There's a movement to remove him from office due to mental incapacity. It's sounding more and more like a good idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Mar 12 - 12:05 AM Well...I have to kind of wonder a bit about the sanity of almost anyone who deliberately sets out to become President of the USA! Specially in recent years. Would a truly normal person want that job? Narcissism may in fact be a necessary requirement for almost anyone seeking that office in the first place...although...I won't completely discount the possibility that a genuine saint would take on the job out of a sense of duty and service to the nation. (Kucinich comes to mind) But...what chance would such a highly motivated and selfless individual have of ever getting enough financial support from his party and its media backers to have even the ghost of a chance of running a winning campaign? Zilch! ;-D Not a hope in hell. The parties pick candidates who represent established interests...NOT progressive changes! Obama got lots of funding...he was by far the best funded candidate in 2008. He has proven to be merely a quasi-liberal trojan horse for neocon corporate-backed war interests...just like Tony Blair did when he was elected in the UK. The British thought they were voting in a progressive when they elected Tony Blair. They were dead wrong! The American liberal left has experienced the same shocking disappointment in Mr Obama...but some of them just aren't ready to admit it yet. Besides...they hate the damn Republicans so much that supporting Obama is their automatic reaction no matter what he does or doesn't do. They'd support him even if he attacked Iran, killed millions, and took away every last civil right they have left...just so they could keep sticking it to the Republicans!!!!! (and if the stark raving mad Republicans did get in, they'd very likely be even worse than Obama). That's how the old 2-party "divide-and-conquer" tactic works in the USA. Heads they win! Tails you lose! Either way, the corporatocracy wins every election. As long as big corporate money funds your elections, I can't see any way of changing that. The media are the message. And the coporates own the media. Closed circle. You are already living in George Orwell's controlled 1984 society, but USA-style, that's all...and that requires that your 2 parties act as a fig leaf to cover the corrupt financial Oligarchy that owns both of them, body and soul. I have no recommendations at all for what you can do about it, no solution for your vanished democracy, because I am not Superman and I am not God. Just stating what I see happening in the USA, that's all. Nothing more than that. I can do nothing about it, and I know it. Like you, I simply want to know what's really going on in the world, and I sometimes can't resist commenting on it. If my comments bug you...(shrug)...what difference could it really make? How important is it that we disagree about something? Will it matter in 50 years? Will anyone remember it in even 1 year? I don't think so. So don't sweat it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Don Firth Date: 26 Mar 12 - 12:37 AM . . . blah blah blah blah blah. . . . Still beating the same old hum-drum. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 26 Mar 12 - 02:18 AM "Waist Deep in the Big Muddy and the Big Fool Says to Push On"....Seeger GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 26 Mar 12 - 03:42 AM "I voted for Obama, but..." So vote for Romney this time around...and get Obama again..unless you can't see past skin color! Damn, now that Kucinich is out...he would be free to run with Paul as Independents....only to find out opening week, what the guys who OWN the government will allow them to do. Ever notice how that pesky ol' Constitution needs an owned party to get it out of the way???..that way the 'devotees' will rationalize it away, that it's O.K.!!!! "We LOVE it that way! We love it that way, everyday And we hope that the bad times are here to stay.. Fa la la la la, la la la la laaa We all love to sing our American Waltz It's our dream come false.. Fa la la la la, la la la, la laaa" GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: kendall Date: 26 Mar 12 - 09:22 AM If the democrats get in we are screwed. If the republicans get in we are raped. Some choice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Wesley S Date: 26 Mar 12 - 09:29 AM "There's a movement to remove him from office due to mental incapacity. " Care to provide any links to this movement or should we just take your word for it? Which is fine because we all trust you implicitly. "The problem with quotes on the internet is you never know if they are genuine - Abraham Lincoln" |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Bill D Date: 26 Mar 12 - 10:38 AM So, Songwronger... what's your day job? Writing copy for Rush Limbaugh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: I voted for Obama, but... From: Greg F. Date: 26 Mar 12 - 10:46 AM Mental incapacity? That's Santorum, for sure. Or Gingrich. No, WAIT! its Ron Paul with the black helicopters && all that. |