BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?

Subject: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 07:33 PM

I'm housebound today so I watched Animal Farm for the first time in many years and discovered that I don't understand it at all.

I realize that it's a political statement, along the lines, one might say, of Lord of the Flies, but who is what and just what is the message? Man is a corrupt tyrant, OK. The animals are a citizenry that rise up against the ruling body. They then, in turn, also become lazy, self-indulgent, greedy and corrupt. What else?

The ending- that's the part that is so ambiguous that I don't grasp it at all. The new people driving up to the Farm? A new beginning? What's going on?

It's been years since the rebels went into hiding, but although they are old they are still alive. Why then is everybody at the Farm dead? There is that image of the dead pig in the mud- was everyone else so underfed and abused that they died? I can see why Napoleon died; he had become alcoholic, but what about the others?

As you can surmise, I'm such a literal-minded person that I have great difficulty with nuance and intimation. I'm sure this film (not to mention the book) has been discussed and dissected in schools everywhere. But I wasn't there.

Any thoughts on this? Anything to pass on to me to ease my mind?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 07:35 PM

Orwell's condemnation of the USSR.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 07:42 PM

OK but can you break it down for me?

The movement that became the USSR rose up against the corrupt monarchy and then became worse than what they had rebelled against? What about the vignettes within?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 07:46 PM

Go to your local bookstore and purchase the "Cliff Notes" it will spell it all out for you. If you have a modicum of understanding, regarding the 20th century, it will be fabulous fun - satire at its best - lots and lots of irony.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 07:51 PM

Animal Farm
(snobby version)
By George Orwell
Ultra-Condensed by Samuel Stoddard and David J. Parker


Old Major, the Pig

    Let us overthrow the depraved czar, Farmer Jones, a symbol of a feudalist government that falls into moral ruin by its own excess and corruption. (dies)

Napoleon, the Pig

    Yes, let us indeed overthrow the human oligarchy as Karl Ma--uh, Friedrich Enge--uh, Wladimir Iljitsch Leni--uh, Old Major said.

Snowball, the Pig

    Yes. I'll lead the defense, unwary that you, like the other Napoleon, are pulling a strategic Stalinesque maneuver by using our revolution as a means to set up your own cruel totalitarian empire. I'm a regular Leo Dawidowitsch Trotzky!

(Napoleon sicks his pack of secret police dogs on Snowball, and they EXILE him.)

Sheep

    See how easily we, the blind followers of our leaders, ignore the facts and are swayed into loyalty by the pushing of emotional buttons? Four legs good. Two legs baaaad.

Rats and Rabbits

    Can we, the Menscheviki, be comrades too?

Moses, the Raven

    Take comfort in what I, a symbol of the Orthodox Church, say. When you die, you'll go to the glorious Sugarcandy Mountain. So there's no need for revolution after all.

Squealer, the Pig

    Go away, opiate of the people. Like Goebbels, the German minister of propaganda, I have a much greater hold on the people than you do.

Pigeons

    Let's be the message carriers of communism and spread the doctrine of the revolution far beyond the physical boundaries of our regime.

Boxer, the Horse

    Napoleon is always right. Like the Russian working class, I am convinced of the necessity of our revolution, firmly devoted to its cause, and work hard for my leaders.

Napoleon, the Pig

    Good horse, Boxer. We need more animals like you.

Boxer, the Horse

    I'm old now. At long last, I have reached retirement age. Now I can rest peacefully while Napoleon takes care of me.

Napoleon, the Pig

    Think again, you lazy oaf. (sells Boxer for glue)

(The animals destroy the windmill in an action symbolic of the failure of the Five Year Economic Plan. Then the pigs turn into humans. Thus ends this dystopian fable on totalitarianism.)



THE END

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 07:51 PM

Some of it is straight-forward. It addresses the time from about 1917-1940s in the USSR. Changing political system. Emergence of a classless society in which some are more equal than others. Two legs good, four legs bad, and the animals that come to rule the roost (the pigs) walk on two legs. The gradual changing of slogans--much in line with Orwell's way of thinking that developed to its maximum in "1984". Orwell had participated in Empier as a police officer in Burma (?), and I suspect much of what he learned/saw there was a later response to the effects of colonialism. However, I am not all that up on Orwell, so best I shush and let those who are more fully address the questions you have.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 07:51 PM

The bottom line of "Animal Farm" is don't try to do better, don't rock the boat, don't bother thinkin' that things can ever be better..."Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"...

Okay, I've never seent he movie and so I'm probably a million miles off but I've read the book and if the movie is anything like the book then that's whaty it's about...

Okay, there tons of symbols in the book... The horse ar the "true belivers" and end up working themselves to death in the name of the movement... The pigs are, ahhh. the new bosses and everyone else is just everyone else...

I hated this book even though I couldn't put it down...

I still hate this book because it says there is no hope for change...

But I haven't seen the movie...

...but the themes of the book are very depressing...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 07:52 PM

OK. Bobad's got the quintessential explanation. Sorry to have cross-posted with you, bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 07:55 PM

The movie is graet. It handles the book well. Worth watching, Bobert. (It's a cartoon, but doene with the 'class' of "Charlotte's Web" or "Watership Down.")

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 07:59 PM

Sincerely - purchase a study guide TONIGHT - if you are serious about UNDERSTANDING you WILL have fun if your IQ runs, even a hair, above 85.

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 08:05 PM

Maybe just a hair, gargoyle.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 08:08 PM

I have 85 hairs. That's about all, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Joe_F
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 09:11 PM

I believe that more than one movie has been made from the book, so you may not all be discussing the same one. As to the book, however, it is (like Nineteen Eighty-Four) a satire, written with a political purpose: to debunk Stalinism. Orwell was a socialist, and believed that if socialism was to have any chance of success, the first requirement was to dissociate it from what had happened in Russia. Animal Farm is a pretty faithful allegory of the fate of the Russian revolution. (Orwell even made a last-minute change in wording in order to be fair to Napoleon-Stalin.) Nineteen Eighty-Four is a more complicated satire, with the warning "It can happen here too, if we turn socialism into a religion".

ObSongs: In the movie version I saw, "Beasts of England" was charmingly rendered as a chorus of animal sounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 12:02 AM

Go to the source, read the book. Here it is. The movie, whatever and whichever it is, is a different work, it is, by definition, a mediated version of the original. I haven't seen the movie, but this is what happens when a work of art is interpreted and moved into a new form.

Animal Farm has a lot of currency today. It may have started in the period and the subject matter suggested above, but if you read the story, you'll see a great deal that has application now. And that's the sign of a good book.

SRS, MA, English, 1999.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: GUEST,michaelr
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 12:39 AM

Pink Floyd's "Animals" makes it even clearer: Pigs run the show, dogs do the dirty work for them, sheep are led to the slaughter.

Couldn't be perfecter.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 02:03 AM

If you are discussing the classic cartoon - the John Halas and Joy Batchelor film, produced by de Rochemont Films, bear in mind when considering whether it faithfully replicates the meaning of the Goerge Orwell book, that is now proven that it was substantially funded by the CIA as anti-soviet propaganda.

Enquiries as to US rights should be directed to Shaler McReel at the current de Rochemont corporation called de Rochemont Films Inc.

Enquiries as to non-US rights should be directed to Joe D'Morais, at Blue Dolphin Films Ltd, London, who AFAIK still represent the Halas and Batchelor Collection Ltd.

There is a research archive on Halas and Batchelor material generally at an academic institution in Surrey but Shaler McReel has a quantity of Animal Farm-specific material.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 03:45 AM

Bobert, it is not true at all that "The bottom line of "Animal Farm" is don't try to do better, don't rock the boat, don't bother thinkin' that things can ever be better..."Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"..." George Orwell was very much a man of the left, but he was not a blind ideologist. These types he severely criticised (especially after his experiences in the Spanish civil war). And he certainly was no political conservative or surrenderer in the face of brutality, as you suggest. In other words, he would never give his critical faculties over to any party or any abstract idea: everything has to be critiqued in the light of experience; experience should never be twisted to suit the party line. That is the punch line of 'Animal Farm' and also the theme of '1984'.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: John O'L
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 04:07 AM

If you'd been sensible and watched Pirates of the Caribean or something you wouldn't have had to upset yourself wondering about meanings and stuff, but oh no, you had to go and do something cerebral.
Ah, me.
Free time is wasted on the intelligent.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 09:48 AM

Ebbie

the key is the bit in the book (and done visually in the animation) that goes 'the animals looked from the pigs to the men and back, and could see no difference'...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 09:56 AM

the underlying message is "power corrupts"

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 10:00 AM

and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 10:04 AM

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 10:08 AM

Well said Foolestroupe.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 10:29 AM

Somebody will come along sooner or later and quote the original source...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 11:04 AM

Lord Acton (though it is often attributed to Marx).

Read the book. I posted a link to the full text.

All things being equal, some things a more equal than others. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 11:16 AM

An even better quote from SRS's link:

"Men cannot be made good by the state, but they can easily be made bad." — Lord Acton

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 11:17 AM

Maybe I'm dense, bit I never really thought of Lod of The Flies as political book. Did I miss something ?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 11:19 AM

Not in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 11:21 AM

I'm the one who mentioned Lord of the Flies, Guest, and I meant it only as another book that deals with the human condition.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 11:23 AM

A story of a fledgling democracy being overthrown by a type of primitive fascism political? Naw.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Tinker
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 11:31 AM

Pink Monkey

cliffsnotes

You don't even have to leave home to get the analysis any more. The cliffsnote link seems to address your question the best Ebbie. It seems the movie might have left out a few critical pieces of information....

tinker

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 06:55 PM

"A story of a fledgling democracy being overthrown by a type of primitive fascism political? Naw. "

I agree with that, memyself. Just that I do not at all care for the book. And that's after over six readings. Blahhhhhhhhhhhhhh . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 01:40 AM

Maybe I'm dense, bit I never really thought of Lod of The Flies as political book. Did I miss something ?

The "Wizard of Oz" was an intensely bitter political book until Hollywood got a grip on it.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 03:41 PM

A couple of thoughts occurred to me in reading the original post; several of these having also occurred to others, I add only this: Orwell got the idea of setting his allegory/satire on a farm from a specific incident (presumably the idea of which animals would best represent different "Types" of Humanity and/or different factions/groups in the specific Russian setting came to him pretty quickly too). The incident? He saw a young farm-boy, on foot, "driving" a great Clydesdale cart-horse down a country lane; the boy wasn't beating the horse, just waving a stick as an "encouragement", or threat, and the poor brute was rolling its eyes in fear. Orwell recognised that the horse could have crushed the youth instantly, but it had learned fear, obedience, "I will work harder" as Boxer puts it. "Working people of all nations, unite..."; at least it will be a while before you can't tell the New Boss-Class from the Old, and maybe one day the Revolution will break out of the usual pattern. But then, we come back to "Types" of Humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 03:49 PM

I don't like the original book much either, Peace. It's a real downer. But it does make some good points.

We need a new George Orwell to write a new satirical book of this sort on the misuses of corporate power and mass marketing.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 04:54 PM

"We need a new George Orwell to write a new satirical book of this sort on the misuses of corporate power and mass marketing."

They write for the Wall Street Journal!

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 02:31 AM

Aren't there some books on 'the Corporate Wars'?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 10:30 AM

There was a little Alan J. Pakula flick that made an impression, from over 25 years ago. I just looked it up--Rollover. I'd have to watch it again today to see if it still has the clout it did back then. It was sort of a China Syndrome for the world financial situation.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 07:59 AM

I read one recently - can't remember title or author - that was noe more than about 10 years old - in which the clever plot was to destroy the world banking system.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:43 AM

You can apply it to any political situation, but it wasn't really about Russia, more than anywhere else. Could have been written about the power brokers in UK folk scene. (The Hooray Henries of the traddy scene whoop it up globetrotting round the various folk festivals of the world, whilst the sexy young contemporary singers who spearhead the music revolution - filling the folkclubs in the 1960's, die prematurely having been driven into exile!)

Orwell had just come back from the Spanish Civil war and his narrative directly addressed his experiences there.

He had been involved with a republican militia called POUM, who like Snowball's followers, were done for by people who had been their comrades. The skilful storytelling of how self interest is pursued by the pigs under the guise of idealism, are what make Animal Farm a great human document.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:04 AM

"it wasn't really about Russia, more than anywhere else" -

While I agree with the gist of your post, I think it's quite clear that Orwell WAS thinking of the Russian experience in particular, but of course he chose a form (allegory) that makes the story more widely applicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:57 AM

I always used to think so - but apparently in his mind, it was about Spain rather than Russia.

A lot of people thought it was about Russia though, and it was given a low key publication, because the Russians were our allies at the time. It was the war. It received a bit of a mauling from the left wing press - fair enough I suppose - 20 million Russian dead - it was hardly a time to start making veiled insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Farm- Meaning?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:54 PM

A film can rarely capture the true meaning of a book. One loses, usually, the nuances and the pictures that only your own mind can conjure up.

I have seen both the film (years ago) and read the book (years ago). The film, as I recall was a great disappointment after having read the book. The same for 1984. Why can no one capture 1984, Winston, Big Brother, and all the meaning---it turns into what later became an Isomething or other commercial and, of course, never forget the terror part in the room all fear. Better in the book.

Bill Hahn