BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism

Subject: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:22 AM

Interesting article indicating that much Anti-Americanism is endemic to certain Europeans:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -




Hamburgers or foie gras


Don't exaggerate the extent of anti-American feeling. The US should identify its real enemies

Justin Webb
Thursday April 12, 2007
The Guardian


What is there not to like about the US? There are a number of possible answers, not all printable. But after weeks spent talking to anti-Americans in Paris, Cairo and Caracas, I am more convinced than ever that the anti-American mindset is often just that: a mindset, a prejudice. It is not racism - America has no racial profile to be hated - but nor is it simply a reaction to events and policies.

There are those who argue that their hatred of America is caused by American actions - as a Cairo professor put it: "It's the policies, stupid!" This way of thinking puts support of Israel at the top of a list of actions that ends with almost everything George Bush has said or done. But Bush, to me, is an enabler of anti-Americanism, not a creator.

This creed is not reactive, it is visceral. Why else would English friends with impeccable anti-racist credentials ask about our children (who grew up in the US) "How will you get rid of their accents." Well, why would we want to?

It is a historical fact that anti-Americanism predates the US. It was not invented in reaction to the Monroe Doctrine or the use of marines to pacify Latin America or McDonald's or Hollywood or Bush. It was invented by European biologists who wrote of the New World, shortly after it had been discovered, that nothing good could come of it. It was ghastly. It stank. One cultured scientist, the Dutchman Cornelius de Pauw, put it thus: "Everything found there is degenerate or monstrous." A lot has happened since then, but some people have not noticed, or do not want to.

The French writer Bernard Henri Lévy points out that the impetus for much of the European disdain for the US came from the right; from "a fascist tendency in French thought based on fear and hatred of democracy". Part of that hatred lives on in our friends' question about our children's accents: it is a deeply held belief among Europeans that US democracy leads to a coarsening of culture. They think our children sound crass. It does not matter how many Nobel laureates live in the US, or how many novelists or musicians; in the end, the taste America leaves in the mouth is of hamburger, not foie gras.

John Bolton looks to me like a hamburger man. The least diplomatic of any recent American diplomat, Bolton, lately of the UN, is the living embodiment of what anti-Americans mean when they say "It's the policies, stupid!". When Bolton growls that "the legitimacy of the US comes from ourselves, we do not require any external validation", you can feel the anti-Americans of the world unite and punch the air with delight; they have their cause and, lo, it is reasonable.

So Hubert Védrine, the former French foreign minister, tells me with a sigh that "the Americans are a colonising people with a mission to convert the world". They have forgotten the lessons of history, he says, and it is Europe's job to remind them. I asked John Bolton to comment on this lofty French vision. "Good luck," he chuckled.

It is, of course, perfectly reasonable to disagree with Bolton. It's perverse to argue - as some US commentators have - that anti-Americanism is always illegitimate. After all, plenty of Americans dislike Bolton with the same passion. It is also possible to exaggerate the extent of anti-Americanism. Living in the US for the past five years, I assumed the rest of the world was seething with passionate resentment at the way it's been treated.

But from a battle-scarred member of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, just out of prison and expecting to go back any day, we heard only polite disdain. He had no interest in America he said, but he did not have any desire to see it destroyed. Of course there are those who would slaughter all Americans, but our interviews suggest that the US needs to be a little more discriminating when judging who its real enemies are.

The Harvard political scientist Samuel Huntington has written that "America is not a lie, it is a disappointment". In other words, the promise of the place is real, even though the reality of American action is often depressingly flawed. The US is a project in which the world has a stake; we outsiders created it and we ought to nurture it, not tear it down.

· Justin Webb is BBC Radio's chief Washington correspondent; Death to America - Anti-Americanism Examined is on Radio 4 next Monday at 8pm
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I was reminded of that old quote from I don't know where (Europe, certainly, but source? I know it's been attributed to Oscar Wilde)"The United States is the only country to go from barbarism to decadence without the intervening period of civilization."!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:25 AM

That was GB Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:36 AM

But there are way more attributions to Wilde than Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:48 AM

That is a very flimsy piece of word-spinning.

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 05:59 AM

If it's not too much trouble, could you give us a name please?

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: Stu
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:11 AM

Interesting article.

In my opinion the main problem with the US (and it's not exclusive to that country) is a lack of moral leadership. The pursuit of free market economics has clouded the vision of people seeking democracy - the very concept of democracy has been undermined by this relentless adherence to capitalism in it's purest form - unregulated markets responding to the wishes of a population being manipulated by the people they are buying from, the very same people who hld public office and are accountable to shareholders at the same time.

The "fascist tendency in French thought based on fear and hatred of democracy" has taken hold in US politics and this sets alarm bells ringing in Europe, where the consequences of such thought are within living memory. We become what we fear most. In Europe however, there is a the political and public will to counter such tendencies where they exist and I'm not sure this exists in American politics. The differences between the main parties are too few (any Americans like to comment on this) to be different in real terms, and this is not healthy for democracy.

Anti-Amercianism around the world is a reaction to the imperialist nature of their cultural exports and belligerent foreign policy - hardly good adverts for a creative and vibrant culture that has so much to offer beyond gangsta rap, Hollywood bilge, Disney and junk food.

Any country that seeks to impose it's will on others without taking into account how the people that actually live there feel (not the politicians) will be viewed with resentment, and currently America is the big imperialist power that is fulfilling that role.

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: pdq
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 09:02 AM

Everybody needs an enemy. Political, racial and cultural 'leaders' around the world find the US to be a convenient target and rally their supporters by using us.

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: Scoville
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:40 AM

Anti-Amercianism around the world is a reaction to the imperialist nature of their cultural exports and belligerent foreign policy - hardly good adverts for a creative and vibrant culture that has so much to offer beyond gangsta rap, Hollywood bilge, Disney and junk food.

No kidding.

I'm not saying our pop culture doesn't suck (it does) but we wouldn't export it if it didn't sell. If these companies stopped making money abroad, they would go away. That's capitalism. STOP BUYING OUR CRAP. I live here and I don't even buy it.

I don't think anti-Americanism is always illegitimate; we've certainly earned our share of the mud slung at us. I also don't think, in turn, that any other country is universally represented by its government/faction in power (Iraq is not populated completely by terrorists, to make a rather extreme example).

And, right now, both of our political parties have their heads up their you-know-whats and are more concerned about badmouthing the other side and distracting voters with buzzwords than actually accomplishing anything for the rest of us. We also have this bizarre problem wherein people who, in economic terms, should be voting Democrat are voting Republican because of the "family values"/morality ploy. The Republicans think this is great and the Democrats don't know how to bridge the gap. We're all dyed-in-the-wool Democrats at my house and we're still completely disgusted with the apparent bunch of snobbish Northeasterners who seem to dominate the party. Hell, if *I* can't relate to you as a Democrat, you're sure not going to win over anyone else in the West or the South.

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 12:22 PM

To clarify, my comment was to an unnamed guest at 05.59 above. It was a response to a rude person, whose comment has since been removed - not to any of the other posters, who are left on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: Grab
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:05 PM

It's reaching a bit to compare the anti-Americanism of today's world, based on the actions of megacorporations, superpower politics and miltary bullying, to the bias against a hostile colony land 600 years ago!

And I'd disagree with his implied assertion that anti-Americanism has been in place for years. For much of the 20th century, "American" equalled "cool", starting in the 20s and continuing until well into the 60s. OK, not so popular with the governments behind the Iron Curtain, but well popular with their citizens. Racism and Vietnam dented it in the 60s, but still, I think the fact that Americans were protesting their government's actions made a difference. A clear majority for Bush in 2004 has rather given the impression that Bush's views do represent the opinions of most Americans, even if it probably doesn't represent the opinions of most American Mudcatters!

The author calls Europe's reminders of colonial hubris a "lofty vision". It isn't really - it's a reminder that 100-200 years ago, most of Europe went about business abroad in much the same way as the US is doing today. Partly the European nations did this because they could, and partly because there was money in it, but partly there was also a real belief in a manifest destiny for each country to rule the world (or a part of it). The result has clearly been pretty disastrous for everyone. Is it really too much to ask for the US government to check *why* they're doing this stuff? If it's for the money then at least say so, but if you're going to give us the "giving freedom to the natives" spiel then you'd better look like you're really trying, because Britain/France/Belgium/Holland did the same in the 1800s and it didn't work out too good.

But this requires American politicians to listen to the rest of the world, and the problem is that they seem scarily insular. The rest of the world will be profoundly affected by the results of any US election, but no-one outside the US has a say in it. In other words, it's consequences without representation. If 9/11 should have had any lesson, it's that no-one should assume you can mess with people around the world with impunity, but these guys seem to be thinking of 9/11 as a "first strike", whereas it was actually a reprisal for American actions over years.

That's the point - it really is the policies. "Death to America" doesn't mean, "We're going to go over there and kill you". It means, "If you come over here and try to mess with us, we're going to kill the guys you send over. And if you try to hurt us some other way, like financially, we'll hurt you some way that we choose. So back the hell off." If there was no risk of the US attacking Iran, they wouldn't care. As the article says, there's a whole lot of other Muslims who don't hate the US specifically, they just want the US government (and military) to go away stop screwing up the world.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:18 PM

Coming up on NPR

The Anti American Facism of Evangelist Christianity

i kid you not

whoa I thought the Bush appointee to head/censor NPR would have done anything to keep this show off the air.

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:42 PM

All overwhelmingly powerful empires generate suspicion and dislike, as well as adulation. In a way the former can perhaps be a healthier reaction. But it's probably better to avoid both of those, and settle for a positiion of critical friendship.

Of cpouirse at certain times "critical friendship" means sharing the patriotic hostility felt by a lot of Americans to some things about American politics and so forth.

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:50 PM

As I read it, the George Bernard Shaw quote was "The USA is the only country to have passed from infancy to senility without an intervening period of maturity".

The definitive quote on civilisation was, I believe (tho' I'm not absolutely certain), from Mahatma Ghandi.

Asked what he thought of American civilisation, he replied "I think it would be a good idea".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: DougR
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 05:02 PM

Still and all, dispite the fact that the US is hated by much of the world, lots of folks still want to immigrate the this country. Some die trying to get here. How do you explain that Stigwead?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 05:34 PM

I think it was "Western Civilisation" that Gandhi thought might be a good idea, rather than American Civilisation as such. (And why is it that so many people spell his name wrong? Including those who clearly admire him.)
..............................
I don't think that the fact people want to emigrate to country means they necessarily admire or like that country. There are any number of other factors involved. When people within a country uproot themselves and move from some rural region to the big city that wouldn't be taken as grounds for thinking the big city is necessarily that wonderful a place to live in. It's a lot more complicated than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 07:30 PM

What I value so much in The United States is the wealth of self-criticism and the will to pay attention to it.

I am not threatened by those within our own country who burn, wear, walk on, or comment physically on the American flag, for this implies the flag has value and meaning. It's when morally tired people try to make these things illegal by definition, because it substitutes a self righteousness to the existence of the flag that has heretofore been earned and continues to be earned.

I am not worried for my country when everyone is proclaiming the poverty of our values and how much better things used to be, what gives me pause when the chest beaters are ascendant, claiming that Americans are best and right simply because they are Americans.

I am not threatened by the wealth of culture and languages that co-exist within our country, I am threatened by those who wish to codify that English is the language of this country by making it a law. This idea that such a thing can be legislated is a misunderstanding of the use of language and law alike. (By the way, ask the French and the Quebecois how well these laws work).

On the other hand, I reserve the right to be personally affronted when the flag of my country is desecrated. I reserve the right to defend the honor and institutions of my country in open debate, and I reserve the right to cuss out those who offend my linguistic sensibilities for any reason at any opportunity.

For I Am Free.

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:05 AM

'A clear majority for Bush in 2004 has rather given the impression that Bush's views do represent the opinions of most Americans, even if it probably doesn't represent the opinions of most American Mudcatters!'


Its my impression that Mudcatters [& folkies] in general are not representative of the opinions of most of the populations of their respective countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: Amos
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:16 AM

ANd Bush's majority was far from clear. ANd it has gone down consistently since.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Guardian article on Anti-Americanism
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 11:06 AM

"On the other hand, I reserve the right to be personally affronted when the flag of my country is desecrated. I reserve the right to defend the honor and institutions of my country in open debate, and I reserve the right to cuss out those who offend my linguistic sensibilities for any reason at any opportunity."

I keep coming back, in these discussions, to the fact that it is not America, the American people, or the American flag that is the problem.

It is emphatically the bastards who currently run the country who have dragged its honour and pride through the mud.

Western democracies (including the UK) consistently elect the worst possible people to govern, because they believe that they are electing representatives, and (over and over again) only realise too late that they have elected rulers.

Unfortunately, to realise this you need to understand the system, and most countries in the Middle East haven't a clue. Hence the current wave of hate directed at the American people, who are mostly just as upset about the war as the muslims.

Don T.