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BS: Could there be multiple universes?
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Subject: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Gulliver Date: 16 Apr 07 - 08:43 PM I read that around the time of the big bang the universe was compressed to the size of a grapefruit (try to get your head around that!) and it then exploded. Could there then be (or have been) other universes created in the same way. Or is ours the only one that exists (or existed)? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 16 Apr 07 - 08:49 PM There could be multiple universes. In fact, the fuel of the original big bang could have been the detritus of an earlier universe, condensed throuogh entropy and catastrophe into a grapefruit sized potentiality. I don't know this for sure, personally, but Coulda's are kinda easy. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: GUEST,patty o'dawes Date: 16 Apr 07 - 08:59 PM Do multiple universes have multiple orgasms? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:11 PM naawww...those are confined to THIS one! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Peace Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:13 PM Hell, yes, of course. There are many many universities in Canada alone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:14 PM Yeah, there could be. It's a possibility. There seem to be multiples of other very large things (planets, suns, galaxies), so why not universes? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:16 PM {ummm..Patty...are you missing one?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Peace Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:18 PM Universes? I thought it was universities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:22 PM Yes I have franchise on the other universes. I bought it on e-bay. If you wish to be considered for rehousing in another universe, just send me ten quid and I'll see that your application is registered and gets forwarded to apropriate person. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Peace Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:31 PM Can we have a choice of colour scheme? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: wysiwyg Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:40 PM Could there be multiple universes? Oh..... OK, sure-- I wasn't going to allow but but since it's YOU who asked, OK, OK..... Can we have a choice of colour scheme? No! That is going TOO FAR! Now, run out and play, and make do with what you have! ~Your Mother |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Folk Form # 1 Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:47 PM Do you mean multiple universes existing at the same time but in other dimensions? This is a staple of science fiction and as a teenager, I use to greedily devour science fiction. The answer is no, of course not. It is a fanciful idea that has no evidence whatsoever to back it up. A bit like theology, in fact. By the way: a good example of a science fiction alternative universe story is Bob Shaw's A Wreath of Stars. Excellent stuff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Peace Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:48 PM The folks in other universes say the same thing, PE. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Sorcha Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:50 PM Of course there could. Where ya been all yer lives? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:06 PM PE, there is a lot of good math that backs up the possibility that time is a grapevine of parallel universes in which every alternative to every event that can occur, actually does. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Don Firth Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:19 PM Clicky. Fascinating! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Rapparee Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:24 PM Oh, yeah. Definitely. I think I remember one night back in '67 when I visited all sorts of other universes, including this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:46 PM Yep...Kaku may be right....we may someday collide with some other universe and go BANG. Pardon me if I refrain from hiding under the bed...*grin* THIS universe is about 14 Billion years old now, we are told....maybe it will last until I get my socks washed.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Rapparee Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:48 PM ...and then maybe not. Depends on how long it takes to wash your socks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Stephen L. Rich Date: 16 Apr 07 - 11:11 PM Four out of five universes are undecided on the question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: George Papavgeris Date: 16 Apr 07 - 11:11 PM Not only there could be, there SHOULD be multiple universes. Otherwise what do we use all those universal joins for? (Not to be confused with "universal joints", which were Woozy John's joints, as they were passed around in an open ended spiral until they reached escape velocity - that is, they never returned to John). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Apr 07 - 02:25 AM Maybe if you don't wash your socks at all, Bill, it'll last forever. Would you be willing to make such a sacrifice on behalf of an endangered world? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Grab Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:31 AM Last I heard, the "multiple universes" thing in physics was a way of doing the maths to make the quantum mechanics drop out with a sensible answer under certain conditions, because of it all using probabilities instead of known states. This doesn't necessarily mean the universe does it that way. As a ferinstance, suppose I go to my online bank and transfer £10 from one account to another. This means that I can now take out £10 more from the second account. But it doesn't mean that a physical £10 note has ever moved location. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: GUEST,Boring old pedant Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:25 AM The 'uni' part means that there is only one. If there's more than one, we gotta think of a new name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: GUEST,Russ Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:02 AM Depends. What do you mean by "universe", "multiple", and "be." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:07 AM 1. All matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole. 2a. The earth together with all its inhabitants and created things. b. The human race. 3. The sphere or realm in which something exists or takes place. 4. Logic See universe of discourse. 5. Statistics See population (sense 5). ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, from Old French univers, from Latin niversum, from neuter of niversus, whole : nus, one; see oi-no- in Appendix I + versus, past participle of vertere, to turn; see wer-2 in Appendix I. From the American heritage. In other realms of discourse, the term means, essentially, a closed system of things taken in its entirety. In quantum science this is sometimes known as the "many worlds theory". Wikipedia: "The many-worlds interpretation or MWI (also known as relative state formulation, theory of the universal wavefunction, many-universes interpretation, Oxford interpretation or many worlds), is an interpretation of quantum mechanics that claims to resolve all the "paradoxes" of quantum theory by allowing every possible outcome to every event to define or exist in its own "history" or "world", via the mechanism of quantum decoherence, instead of wavefunction collapse. Proponents argue that MWI reconciles how we can perceive non-deterministic events (such as the random decay of a radioactive atom) with the deterministic equations of quantum physics; history, which prior to many worlds had been viewed as a single "world-line", is rather a many-branched tree where every possible branch of history is realised. The relative state formulation is due to Hugh Everett[1] who formulated it in 1957. Later, this formulation was popularised and renamed many worlds by Bryce Seligman DeWitt in the 1960s and '70s.[2][3][4][5] The decoherent approach to interpreting quantum theory has been further explored and developed[6][7][8] becoming quite popular, taken as a class overall. MWI is one of many multiverse hypotheses in physics and philosophy. It is currently considered a mainstream interpretation along with the other decoherent interpretations and the Copenhagen interpretation." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Rapparee Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:13 AM We could call empty ones "blankverses." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:12 PM I looked behind me, and what did I find? an Obverse! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Wolfgang Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:14 PM Multiverse is the new word, or better the new meaning for an old word as used in "the English multiverse ballad". Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Rapparee Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:48 PM And the truly odd ones are called "perverse." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 17 Apr 07 - 01:29 PM And the tiny ones -- like ours -- are called (by those in the Know -- "punyverses". A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Wesley S Date: 17 Apr 07 - 01:32 PM Multiverse sounds like a very long poem - or the place you can watch a movie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Shaneo Date: 17 Apr 07 - 01:36 PM There was no big bang , God made the world , have faith people |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 17 Apr 07 - 01:39 PM Wow! And He told you about this, Shaneo? Send him over...I have a few questions about the details. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 17 Apr 07 - 01:42 PM I have been of the multiverse opinion for about 15 years. I believe they are born within black holes and possibly some super nova. When the universe was young and things were closer the collection of super massive black holes and their collisions were huge and could be what we now call quasars. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Apr 07 - 01:55 PM Thank you for that excellent bit on the multiverse/quantum mechanics thingie, I've read a lot of sci-fi based on it and nobody put it quite that way. Best example = Timeline (the book, not the movie, where they had to take the science out). I think that the way it works is that time is an actual physical dimension of which we only perceive its intersection with our perceived three dimensions of space (like the squares in Flatland), which we receive as Now. Which means that all other times exist, just not where we are, but we can do the thought exxperiment of if we COULD be there, this is what we'd get as "now" (and it could be anything). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 17 Apr 07 - 02:02 PM When we look at the possibliity of multiple universes the first proof we have is the intermediate interactive gravity enabled cores of black holes in which universes generate Mega global customized dimensions and schemas between disparate universes. In this out-of-the-box vertical relationship, we can visualize frictionless cross-platform vertices of non intersecting universi on different dimensional constraints and see how they enable end-to-end frictionless functionalities. The emerging metadata helps us see the objectives of each transforming and emerging universe from within different black holes. IF we refigure entity-relationshiped next-generation universes with precision we can get a handle on the Mega scale and document interactive scalable solutions to this question. hey kids,,, you too can be the jargon king and impress and BS your teacher or boss... http://www.strauss.za.com/sla/newspeak.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 17 Apr 07 - 02:10 PM Myrrzy, we can have many different dimensions in our own universe but to create a space time bubble with its own exponential growth it is thought it can be done with only 30 lbs of matter under near infinite pressure. IF you had a device to make that pressure in your basement you could put a 30lbs of bread dough in that oven and poof a new universe would be born. Your house should be just fine since the resulting universe would sprout entirely outside our space time universe. Usually those pressure ovens are inside super massive black holes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:12 PM I thought the term multiverse referred to the collection of "universes", rather than to a single one of these. Assuming there is a collection of them. Perhaps "cosmos" might be a better term to adopt than universe in this context. "near infinite " - that's an oxymoron. No matter how big a finite number is, it's still no nearer to infinite... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:28 PM Maybe when they come up with these quantum computers we'll find ourselves getting into discussions with people from alternative Mudcats in other universes. "What is folk?..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Peace Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:38 PM That is very funny, McG of H. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:05 PM ah, yes...9-dimensional 'folkieness'...played on one of these |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Gulliver Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:51 PM In an attempt to get back to the thread .... (thanks everyone for the entertaining comments!), there is the factor of TIME. When space is so constrained (as at the time of the Big Bang), I read that time is slowed to almost nothing (in fact it may not have existed--another mind-blowing concept!), due to a space/time relationship thing. So if TIME is limited to our universe, how can there be other universes? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Peace Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:54 PM Why think that time is limited to our universe? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Peace Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:01 PM Sorry. I reread your post for the sixth time and it says that time is a creation/result of space. We assume that this was the only universe created by the big bang, but that's an assumption. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:03 PM If one could arrange to be in several universes at the same "time", it would increase the odds of achieving multiple orgasms... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Peace Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:06 PM Only if you had the time for them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:12 PM I'm taking bookings for this alternative universe, where you can eat pork pies and chocolate without getting fat; politics are illegal; the universal drink is Talisker and independence day is celebrated every year by colourful folk dances to traditional tunes like Louie Louie. Unaccompanied ballad singing of songs longer than three verses is punishable by death. Terms and conditions apply. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:55 PM After a trip through this thread, the only thing rolling in Einstein's grave might be a joint . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:20 PM Time is also a construct of view; it seems perfectly possible to me to have a universe where time goes in two directions, or even detours in loops of various sequence for entertainment. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bert Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:30 PM Well terminology seems to be one problem here. Universe conventionally means 'everything there is' But, that doesn't preclude there being many BIG BANGS within that everything. Every time that man has tried to define the Universe his answer has always come up WAY TOO SMALL. So I would say that Gulliver is absolutely correct in surmising that many big bangs have ocurred. Whether you call them parts of the one universe or the creation of separate universes is just a question of semantics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: katlaughing Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:21 AM No, Bill. They will play it on one of THESE (Quicktime movie) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:36 AM I once read a book called 'The Nature of Reality' by David Deutsch. I think that this book was about the 'Many Worlds' explanation of quantum mechanics. I'm not too sure, though, because my brain shrivelled! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:17 AM There are no Big Bangs but rather a collision or,,,, an expansion after great compression inside a super massive black hole. in other words There are 2 possiblilities in my way of thinking in the creation of a universe... #1 a black hole creating a universe seperate from our own #2 a COLLISION of 2 universes (the intersection of 2 branes of existence) that have enough in common somehow to allow an interaction. or for kids under 4 years of age.... #3 god did it 6000 years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:21 AM YES! kat! That was the one I was looking for when I started my post. "resonant chamber"....I just couldn't remember the name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:30 AM kat that is gorgeous, where can I see and learn more about the works and creators? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:00 PM OK found it, ordered it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Wolfgang Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:37 PM "Sheila, come finish that universe experiment in the Petri dish and let's eat a pizza" "No, not yet, Marc, it's so interesting" "How's your universe going? Have you intelligent replicators? And how have you set the variables?" "I was going for a universe with not too much replicators. So I set the fine-structure variable to the usual value for semi-stable universes, the velocity of light close to ....(300,000 km/s in our units), the ... Yes, I got a slowly expanding universe with replicators, some of them even intelligent replicators" "Do they know of each other?" "No they are too far in space and time and they usually kill themselves off quickly once they find out about quark power. Here's one of them orbiting a light source. They call their orbiting mass Earth and they consider me as omnipotent, all-knowing and benevolent. The buggers think I interfere in their daily doings instead of just watching and protocolling" "All-knowing, my arse. If we were that we wouldn't have to worry about the end of term physichemistry of universes examination. And benevolent, haha, kill them off now, Sheila, and lets go. You have done more than enough for this day's assignement. I stopped my experiment just after one bunch of intelligent replicators had killed off all other intelligent replicators in their light source conglomeration. I had chosen the values to give rise to many replicators. It is so much fun to see them fight." "OK, Marc, I come with you for a pizza, but I let the experiment run until we come back." "Don't be sentimental, Sheila." "I'm not, I'm just curious. Those intelligent replicators on the Earth will when we come back either have killed themselves or colonised at least their local light point conglomeration. It's a toss-up." "OK, I bet on extermination before we even order the pizza. We can check later on the historical display" "Fine, I bet on colonisation. The loser pays the pizzas." "Will we have to make universes again next week?" "Yes, but the task is to make the more quickly pulsating ones. Boring, no replicators to watch." "Yeah, but don't you like the quickly successing big explosions? Like a firework." "Marc, do you think there could be intelligent replicators of several multiversers size watching us in their Petri dishes and debating killing us off before or after the pizza?" "Don't be silly, Sheila". Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:48 PM Donuel...I hope you found the full-length version of "resonant chambers" and its kin on YouTube. They are ALL awesome! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: John O'L Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:16 PM There can't have been a Big Bang. Sound requires atmosphere. It must have been a Big Silence, or BS. (The music section is of course a seperate universe.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: nutty Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:24 PM If we remember that ever star in the sky is the equivalent of our Sun and around every star is the equivalent of our planets, then its odds on that out there somewhere is an equivalent universe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:30 PM ummmm..sorry, nutty, I don't see the logic. "universe" is mostly used to mean 'everything'...stars & planets are just a part of everything. Separate universes are mostly the result of attempts to make mathematical equations balance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: nutty Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:36 PM "universe" is mostly used to mean 'everything' but 'everything' within our comprehension, Bill. We have to accept that we know so little at present that such things are possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:48 PM Wolfgang, that is one of the best renderings of that kind of theme. Better than the Shatner episode on Star Drek when they wer up against an all powerful baby. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: BK Lick Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:52 PM pity this busy monster,manunkind, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:08 PM "..but 'everything' within our comprehension, Bill." well...speculating about what might be beyond our comprehension can be interesting, but that doesn't say much about its possibility. Over & over many people make a kind of jump - from giving a concept a name to acting as though it acquires some sort of reality from the naming. Our language enables our imagination in some strange ways.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:08 PM Say, is resonant chamber another word for ass? And if it is, shouldn't Big Bang be better stated as Big Poot? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Gulliver Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:33 PM I did a bit of googling on this and there are a lot of theories out there--enough to keep me reading until the end of the week at least--and lots of them deal with multiverses, etc. Which got me to thinking about our own universe collapsing on itself in a few gazillion years. Shouldn't we get off our butts and do something about this? What can we do to save the universe? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:35 PM Fart a lot............ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:36 PM Add mass. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:23 PM No collapse in this universe. Aunti Gravity will keep our family of galaxys movin on out until the last cold spark sputters into darkness. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:34 PM doesn't everyome know the old joke about the elderly lady at the astronomy lecture? "...Oh, thank goodness! I thought you said 10 MILLION years!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:06 PM Possibility (there are serious scientists who consider it a likelihood): A massive star imploded into a black hole. The result was a Big Bang and another universe began. Us. Here. And in our universe, every time a massive star implodes into a black hole, another universe starts. And they, in turn. . . . And, of course, the universe from which our universe sprang was created the same way. Big fleas have little fleasAnd then there is the little matter of eleven dimensions. They're right here, but we're able to perceive only three, and have a sense of the fourth. All of which boils down to this: hard-headed "realists" shouldn't necessarily be so phlegmatic about such things as paranormal phenomena. They might be "leakage" from other dimensions. (Cue Twilight Zone theme.) Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:48 PM It is also interesting to consider that all scale is a function of viewpoint, and imagining a very very huge universe in which to be is comforting to a species of small bipeds who can't even get off one third-rate planet. But it als means that space and its boundaries may be nothing more than an artifact of looking out. If so then the notion of " universe" as "everything" is just an anthrocentric conceit. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:55 PM "Small fleas have larger fleas Beneath their feet to go on; And these in turn have larger still; And larger still, and so on." A guy I knew 40 years ago...(who never even went to college, but knew I was) came up to me one day with this "what if all the atoms are really little planets?...and we in turn are just atoms in someone else's universe?" It's SUCH an easy thing to toss about...and often good fun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: nutty Date: 19 Apr 07 - 12:59 AM Over & over many people make a kind of jump - from giving a concept a name to acting as though it acquires some sort of reality from the naming. That's kind of like what happened in religion isn't it, Bill. Didn't God/Allah acquire substance the same way?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: freda underhill Date: 19 Apr 07 - 09:28 AM There are truly parallel universes - I just posted quite a long post to this thread and it disappeared to.. somewhere! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: freda underhill Date: 19 Apr 07 - 09:38 AM so, here we go again! excerpts from conversations between Professor Paul Davies and Phillip Adams. (they've been discussing quantum physics, and move on to parallel universes.. Paul: That's right, but the question is, are all these possibilities really there? Are they co-existing in parallel? Or is there only one reality, one universe, and if so, how does it get selected from the myriad realities on offer? Phillip: Parallel universes — a mind-boggling notion. Are you suggesting that there are universes in which Tony Blair lost the last British general election? Paul: That's right, yes. According to the theory — if you subscribe to this particular many-universes interpretation (which many of my senior colleagues do, I might say) — these contending realities are really there. In other words, quantum physics tells us that there isn't one universe — there is an infinity of them. All of the different possibilities, all of the things that are possible at the atomic level and above, are really happening somewhere. Not over here or over there in our space and time, but in some parallel reality. Phillip: Are there Luddites who take an alternative view to this, who are hostile to this interpretation of quantum mechanics? Paul: Yes, there are. I would say that during my career there's been a decisive shift towards the many-universes view of interpreting quantum mechanics. Possibly a majority of the senior figures working in this area of theoretical physics now would regard themselves as backing the many-universes theory... Phillip: I'm very grateful that we don't notice bizarre quantum effects in daily life, Paul.…. But I've got a terrible feeling that another interview is being conducted in an identical room where you're taking a completely different position. Paul: Yes, that is exactly right according to the many-universes view. Not only are there all these different realities, but many of them are inhabited by beings who are almost carbon copies of ourselves. So there will indeed be another universe somewhere with a Paul Davies and Phillip Adams having a slightly different — even infinitesimally different — conversation! Phillip: This raises the issue of the way the human mind is entangled in the ultimate reality of the cosmos, because you are now dealing with our perceptions of it. Paul: Indeed. That's actually the whole point. The really disturbing thing about quantum physics is that it does seem in some way to involve the observer. It entangles the observer and the observed in a very intimate way. You see, in the old-fashioned classical physics, the observer was just there for the ride. But when it comes to quantum physics the situation is dramatically different. ..quantum phenomena enfold or entangle the observer with the observed in a manner that simply can't be untangled. This entanglement seems to bring something like 'mind', something like 'observer', into nature in a very intimate way. Now that is anathema to most scientists, who struggle to keep mind and subjectivity out. The question is how to interpret the rules of quantum mechanics when applied to the entire cosmos. If you are one of those people who believes that the observer matters, then you have a problem with quantum cosmology, because if you apply quantum physics to the whole universe you can't get outside the universe to observe it. The universe is everything that there is. There are no external observers, by definition. The many-universes people are okay on this point because they can just assume that all possible universes that can exist get created, and then act out their alternative histories in parallel. So, for example, just as we see a universe like ours which is expanding from some initial singularity to an uncertain future, well there would be another universe which has not expanded so far as ours and would already be collapsing. There would be yet another that would be expanding much faster, and would already be nearly devoid of matter because the galaxies would have flown very far apart. All of these universes are there together. full discussion here.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:23 AM But when it comes to quantum physics the situation is dramatically different. ..quantum phenomena enfold or entangle the observer with the observed in a manner that simply can't be untangled. This entanglement seems to bring something like 'mind', something like 'observer', into nature in a very intimate way. Now that is anathema to most scientists, who struggle to keep mind and subjectivity out. Aye, there's the rub. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:56 AM "...a kind of jump - from giving a concept a name to acting as though it acquires some sort of reality from the naming. "That's kind of like what happened in religion isn't it, Bill. Didn't God/Allah acquire substance the same way??" ...might be....I suspect something like that. Enormously complex cultural/personal process based on 'real' experiences with creative interpretations. Honest people making the best guess they can to account for phemomena of interest...like death and thunder and the sun & moon and dreams. But an honest guess is not necessarily the correct guess....and once the DIShonest get ahold of it, strange things can happen. It is not a matter of 'proving' that those guesses were wrong...in fact, some of them 'might' be right...but rather, the burden of proof is on those who choose to adopt the results of the guesses AS truth. I just choose not to buy into a belief system developed that way without better documentation.....kinda stubborn that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 19 Apr 07 - 11:08 AM "Over & over many people make a kind of jump - from giving a concept a name to acting as though it acquires some sort of reality " Bill D Yeah Bill its called a hypothesis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Don Firth Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:41 PM ". . . what if all the atoms are really little planets?...and we in turn are just atoms in someone else's universe?" Fun concept, Bill. Wa-a-a-ay back, I bought a book entitled Adventures in Time and Space ed. Raymond J. Healy & J. Francis McComas (Random House, Aug '46, $3.00, 997pp.). One of the stories it contained was "He Who Shrank," by Henry Hasse (Amazing, Aug. '36), in which the protagonist is an unwilling participant in an experiment that caused him to shrink, and continue shrinking. He would fall into matter (piece of paper on a desk), emerge as a gigantic being in a "universe," diminish in size until he floated down onto an electron (orbiting its nucleus like a planet orbiting a star), become "normal size" for the beings there, have lots of adventures, then dwindle and vanish, and the whole process would happen again as he entered layer after layer of smallness. Spoiler Alert: the man who quotes the "shrinker's" narration is a science fiction writer—here on Earth. The shrinker finishes his narration—up to that point—as he diminishes and disappears into a sheet of typing paper. Just passing through on his way to. . . . I'm guessing that the story was the basis of the movie "The Incredible Shrinking Man," although the screenplay—and the novel—are credited to Richard Matheson. Good special effects for a 1950s movie, but the scope of the short story was much more sweeping and awe-inspiring. Remake scheduled to come out in July, 2008. There was also a novel on the same theme: The Girl in the Atom. Not great. The anthology contained some of the classic classic science fiction stories from the pulp SF magazines in the 1930s. Several of them emerged later on in longer form—movies. At least the movies were based on the short stories. One was "Who Goes There" by Don A. Stuart (Astounding, Aug. '38) on which the movie "The Thing" was based. James Arness (later, Matt Dillon of "Gunsmoke") was The Thing. But the "thing" in the short story was far more scary. Alien. Deadly. And it could assume any shape. Could have been the guy sitting next to you and you wouldn't know it until too late. Antarctic setting. They had to get the thing before it occured to it to surn into a seagull and fly away North. Another was "Farewell to the Master" by Harry Bates (Astounding Oct '40). This was the germ of the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still." The story concludes with a man carrying a dead alien humanoid to a parked spaceship with a huge robot standing motionless beside it. The man say, "I'm sorry about your master." To which the robot intones, "You are mistaken. I am the master." The movie was considerable expanded, with an anti-war, anti-violence theme. Classic film. The anthology includes Isaac Asimov's "Nightfall" (Astounding Sep. '41) and "Black Destroyer" by A. E. Van Vogt (Astounding Jul '39). And a couple dozen others of comparable quality and vintage. One of the best $3.00 investments I ever made. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: John O'L Date: 19 Apr 07 - 11:07 PM "If you are one of those people who believes that the observer matters, then you have a problem with quantum cosmology, because if you apply quantum physics to the whole universe you can't get outside the universe to observe it." Couldn't any (or every) person in any or every universe be regarded as an observer? Why the need to get out of it? Or does "the observer" mean something different in quantumspeak? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: GUEST,jaminjo Date: 22 May 07 - 12:05 PM Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes Yes YES YeS..etc |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 22 May 07 - 06:23 PM very....ummmm...enlightening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 23 May 07 - 09:24 AM Don Firth, I had some leakage yesterday. I was in a hypnogogic reverie when I realized that a friend of mine was feeling worried about his elderly father inlaw being ill. Having no earthly way to explain how I knew this, my inclination to call and give him my condolences and good wishes for his father in law was overpowered by my past experiences of telling people things I should not know anything about and creating suspicion and uneasiness. He stopped by the next day and said his father in law was ill, but also his dad and mom were also hospitalized. Time information "leakage" is common. The 9 year old MIT egg experiment is proof. Gaining some imperical way of means of understanding it may come from a breakthrough in cosmology. Such information in the hands of organized religion or warring nations is discomforting. Do we want to know? I believe most people do not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 23 May 07 - 10:01 AM Most people, I think, have built their palisades form against such abilities because they have had too much random and difficult experience when "open". Knowing is a non-local occurence which gets put into localized bottles in order to appear sanitized. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Date: 23 May 07 - 10:42 AM Does anyone else think that the current trend for Scientists to be chatting about this kind of "multiple universe" theory - and getting research grants to do it - is the modern equivalent of Mediaeval Theologians disputing about how many wings angels had; or dancing on pinheads, of course? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: MMario Date: 23 May 07 - 10:49 AM no - because there has been some serious mathematical analysis of various phenomenon that fit into the multiverse theories. But whether or not there is or will be "proof" - who knows. Who ever thought there'd be imaging microscopes that could resolve detials smaller then the wavelength of visible light? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 23 May 07 - 04:44 PM Very different kinda thing; they are working from hard facts and extrapolating using proven mathematics, not philosphical imponderables. Important differentiation. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: GUEST Date: 23 May 07 - 08:06 PM a2xt3 ------------ = nxt/mn + >d=fxl/2 L c24352 (hd4) NOPE! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: gnu Date: 24 May 07 - 06:53 AM Yes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: gnu Date: 24 May 07 - 06:53 AM No. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: gnu Date: 24 May 07 - 06:53 AM Maybe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: MMario Date: 24 May 07 - 08:35 AM and only on alternate tuesdays during months with an "r" in them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 24 May 07 - 10:06 AM Ambiguity is not the answer. I think. But it might be the question. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 24 May 07 - 12:30 PM Here's how you get there (I think Google is working on a map) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 24 May 07 - 02:25 PM Bill thats a drawing of a concept of the emergence of quanta at the quantum level oppoing into our reality and its loopy ride back to where it came from. There are so many different perspectives one can imagine to depict the quantum chaos ride between here and there. for example the camera of the mind could look at only the barrier, or only one side or both. I have made so many computer generated pictures of this phenomena I bet I got it right at least once. I use chaos and fractals in polar distortion filters and wave generators in all sorts of combinations. I keep the ones that offer an ineffable beauty. be it modern art of doodling the quantum universe it is visually appealing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Richard Bridge Date: 24 May 07 - 06:10 PM Since quantisation is a construct, not reality, it follows that there is no reason to hypothesise mutiple reality. THe question cofuses the analytica tool and the actuality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Richard Bridge Date: 24 May 07 - 06:11 PM 100 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 24 May 07 - 06:17 PM The construction, however, does reflect the reality as far as we have tested it Richard. Discrete energy levels and particle entanglement are testable actualities. Why do you think quantization is just a "construct" ? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Richard Bridge Date: 24 May 07 - 06:32 PM Heisenberg. You can never demonstrate which route the last photon actually took. Discrete energy levels are measurable - within what we know of measurement of energy. What if one did not recognise the concept of vorticity in measuring water-flow energies? What we cannot prove is that ther eis a photon or quark, or subatomic particle. What we can at best show is that the gross evidence is consistent with them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: GUEST,Ed Date: 25 May 07 - 05:59 PM Why not a triangular universe? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 25 May 07 - 06:16 PM No reason why not. The notional 4D frame of our apparent universe strikes me as arbitrary as all get-ut. Left-corkscrew space, three-vector time, and self-multiplying energy would be fun variables to start a universe with, I think. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 25 May 07 - 07:37 PM I have a suspicion that the 'variables' are actually pretty UNvariable....some things just make more sense than others.....and before you suggest that my idea of 'sense' is narrow & rigid, Amos..*grin*, I still would be willing to bet 25¢ that most theoretical varients will remain that way. Equations are fun, but we can always describe things we can't really conceive of or explain in any useful manner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 25 May 07 - 08:11 PM I created a character that could travel in the Z axis of space and effectively step into a preferred mirrored universe. While he can get out of tragic situations, each Z axis side step causes him to become left handed instead of right and visa versa. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 25 May 07 - 08:58 PM Bill: I think this depends entirely on what you consider space tiself to be, and whence it cometh. Most pure-physics models are pretty dull about this, citing space as the thing you find energy in, and energy as the things you find in space. Very circular and indicative that there is somer underlying paradigm, or assumpiton, that just begs to be discovered. Of course it is very disturbing to think about a defintion for space itself, since we are accustomed to mostly being inside "it" (or "them" depending on your definition). It strains the brain like a fish trying to describe water. But that is not grounds for rejecting the question. Thought itself, it seems to me, creates a variety of dimensional-like constructs in its exercise and may have more to do with the kind of space we see than one would suppose. Just messing with you, though, Bill. I know this is all silly stuff, since thought is generated by the brain which is safely and permanently located in space, and therefore space can only be some external bowl of water in which we swim, I guess... :>) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 26 May 07 - 08:57 PM gee...you ARE getting close, Amos.... ;>)...but even that bowl of water metaphor is dangerous, as it tends to give substance TO space. I know...lots of debate over whether 'space' is curved...positively, negatively, or just flat. Some of those theories and equations require one or the other. .....Now I wonder what 'shape' space might have been one second before the 'big bang'.(if there was one)....and if that shape changed a few seconds after the big bang. Well, what I really wonder is whether 'space' makes any sense without things 'in' it. Was there at some 'time', NO-thing? And if so, was there any space to be curved? Is 'space' only a name for that not-solid area between the solid stuff we care about and can weigh, measure and take pictures of? I am, of course, heading in my usual direction of wondering just how our obvious need to name certain aspects of whatever passes for reality also affects how we construct theories about the ultimate nature of things. " Most pure-physics models are pretty dull about this.." Yep...kinda dull. It is a lot more interesting to manipulate terminology and imagine META-physical realms where dimensions and planes of existence and entire universes can be tossed about with impunity. Entire religions have been built on these imaginary realms...(Oahspe, Urantia). We make fun of them, but talk seriously of wormholes into other universes where physical laws are 'different'. It's an interesting feeling to have evolved into a being with a physical brain complex enough to ask these questions and wonder ....ummm...how we can ask these questions! Just being able to contemplate our own existence seems to imply ALL the other questions - even the ones we can't answer. "Can God make a weight he can't lift?"...Can Man ask a question he can't, by definition, ever answer?.......me, I suspect he sure enuf can.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Wolfgang Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:25 AM A fine an easy to read commentary: We will never explain the cosmos by taking on faith either divinity or physical laws. True meaning is to be found within nature (link to GUARDIAN) Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:37 AM ...thought is generated by the brain... That's a hypothesis in itself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:39 AM What I mean by that is, it has been suggested that that is analogous to assuming that a TV programme is generated by the TV set. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 26 Jun 07 - 03:33 PM A very nice commentary, Wolfgang. It even hints at the semantic issues of referring to "physical law" as if it were a set of rules which were 'followed' as the Universe took shape, instead of just being the relationships we discover. When someone suggests there 'may' be other universes where neutrons and protons had slighly different weights, and thus don't combine, I see the point, but I also suspect that part of BEING neutrons & protons...etc..IS their weight relationship, and that the very speculation makes little sense. In any case, I can't see how we could ever test the hypotheses about alternate universes...even if we can 'describe' them mathematically. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: GUEST,282RA Date: 26 Jun 07 - 04:45 PM What if dark matter is matter in a parallel universe? Perhaps it warps space that is close to our own but does not interpentrate it so it is not perceptible to us but the effects of that warpage are felt in our universe but we can only understand it as some kind of invisible matter clumping our universe together. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 26 Jun 07 - 05:34 PM ah, yes...'perhaps'. We can't see it, feel it, measure it...but we can talk about it. *shrug*..if we can't TELL either that we are affected by something, or that it exists at all, speculation about its nature is but a game...perhaps... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:09 PM Mudcat is the ultimate alternative universe.....imagine a world where someone gives a shit about what you think.....where your intimate thoughts are preserved for posterity....... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: John MacKenzie Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:18 PM Of course there are parallel universes, that's what accounts for ghosts, We all inhabit the same space at different wavelengths, and sometimes when they get too close, we can almost see the people in another dimension. This is why they appear to walk through walls, because those walls don't exist in their world. G |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:33 PM how did you get there Giok? |
