BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 11 - 05:14 PM

Oh good! I always thought I was primeevil!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 11 - 02:39 PM

Yes, Bill,

I asked Mom, and she said that you were indeed the handsome, evil twin....I didn't dare ask what she thought of me.

-Joebro-

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 May 11 - 02:32 PM

Don Firth re' God's belly button...just proves there is a Goddess who gave birth to Him!**bg**

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 11 - 02:02 PM

( Joe... I'm the 'handsome' twin...right?)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 11 - 01:40 PM

That link posted by number 6 - it's a beautifully timed trap by the questioner!! And clearly appreciated as such by most of the people on the platform. It's funny, lighter - lighten up.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 11 - 12:39 AM

Yeah, I think people said what they thought here, in a fairly peaceable manner. So, that being the case, I'd just like to say, "ditto." And, like my evil twin Bill D, I am very impressed with the messages I posted above....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 May 11 - 09:34 PM

No one needs to post more...just re-read THIS thread. I can't think of any serious positions on either side that have not been laid out.

(of course, pay special attention to MY gems... **grin**)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Ed T
Date: 11 May 11 - 09:33 PM

"Is there a "Mother of all God Threads"? ""

There may be a motherfu***r of all threads"
:)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 11 - 07:50 PM

Does God have a belly button? If so, then what might be the implications of that?

Jack the Sailor should be able to tell you. He sounds like a navel man.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 May 11 - 07:09 PM

Does God have a belly button? If so, then what might be the implications of that?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 May 11 - 06:20 PM

Is there a "Mother of all God Threads"?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Ed T
Date: 11 May 11 - 06:06 PM

It's the scourge of the God threads:)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:44 PM

I don't get it.

He says that "all belief is a coverup for insecurity."

The guy's question implies that if Deepak believes what he believes, he's covering up his insecurity.

"Covering up insecurity" apparently means "pretending you're not afraid."

OK, so Deepak's belief, like everybody else's, helps him pretend he's not afraid.

But that doesn't mean his belief (or somebody else's) isn't true - only that it lets them pretend they're not afraid.

The point is that if you weren't afraid, and trying to hide it, you wouldn't bother to believe anything. It doesn't say anything about the truth or falsehood or other value of your belief.

Also, it seems clear enough that when Deepak was talking about "belief," he meant the dogmatic acceptance of spiritual or religious doctrines. (That's the sort of thing he talks about.)

When the questioner asked, "Do you believe that?" he was referring to the non-dogmatic kind of belief that's based on personal experience in the world. Like, "I believe I'd better take an umbrella because it looks like rain," *not* "I believe in Zeus and Hera."

So there's no contradiction. And that's why Deepak looks puzzled: the audience is laughing and applauding over a mistaken play on words.
By the way, I read Deepak's first book and thought it was kind of silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 May 11 - 04:36 PM

Kazooba, kazooba. Wabnigot frachet. Ding, dang, dong.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: number 6
Date: 10 May 11 - 11:44 PM

do you believe that ?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:51 PM

Yes - absurd is in the eye of the beholder.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:14 PM

Depending, of course, on what you mean by "absurdities".

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 18 May 07 - 09:14 AM

BELIEFS

"As long as people believe in absurdities
they will continue to commit atrocities."

                            Voltaire

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 May 07 - 06:39 PM

And may you be with your god when s/he/it needs you.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 May 07 - 05:11 PM

Or may your god, he be with you if you need her. or may she be with you if you need him.
Or may it be with her and him if you need 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Big Phil
Date: 17 May 07 - 06:55 AM

Or, May your God be with you when you need him.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Big Phil
Date: 17 May 07 - 06:54 AM

May your God be with when you need him,.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 May 07 - 05:46 PM

I guess I need to re-evaluate, I receive this in the mail:

The power of prayer

(I didn't scan it, I just took a quick snapshot...but maybe you can get an idea.)

Do they do this in Germany, Wolfgang?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 May 07 - 05:21 PM

We should believe in God because with out him the only thing to base our rules and morality is ourselves and that automatically leads to naturalism.

Which bit of god's word as written in the bible do we set our morals by then?

Believe in the Ten Commandments and you clearly have some faith in the Old Testament. All of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 May 07 - 07:41 AM

Folkiedave has it right in the study I have mentioned. Those who knew they had been prayed for had a statistically significant worse outcome than the other two groups (mind: with large numbers involved a statistically significant effect can be fairly small). This is not the first result of this kind (another is mentioned in the link below).

This could be a nocebo effect ("My God, they assign me to the group who is prayed for: Is it really so bad"). The authors of the study report it but treat it as a statistical fluke.

I do not think the effect of prayer could or should be studied for several reasons:
(1) If there is a God, why should he be forced to interfere by prayer that is randomly assigned in a study?
(2) "Study prayer" comes only in addition to genuine prayer by friends and relations. A real no-prayer control group ("please tell all your friend and relations not to pray for your recovery, because you are in the no-prayer at all control group") will never be run for obvious reasons.
(3) The causal relation I-pray-and-therefore-I-get is not really a Christian idea (Ebbie has said that I think). To pray for something/someone with all your heart with no good result (missing child found dead) is never treated in Christian teaching as a proof for the absence of a God.

The article below mentions some of the problems with prayer studies. My opinion is found among the arguments against such studies. But I know that there is a subgroup fo Christians (in particular in the USA) who list seeing positive effects of prayer as a proof of God. For such a simple-minded thinking it is worthwhile listing methodological problems and pointing to other studies.

When my daughter was 7 years old, she came to me and told me she could prove there was no God. How, I did ask. She said she'd pray for X (her most hated classmate) to break a leg and if he would not break a leg that would be the proof of there being no God. I sighed, praised her for the methodological thinking but told her that if there was a God he'd surely not listen to prayers praying for bad luck of others.

She hates going to religious instruction in school but her parents (both atheists) think she has to be somewhat older before deciding on her own that she does not want to hear about God and religion (it is optional).

In summary, I find prayer studies pointless, but I like to list methodological problems and other finding for those who believe in such studies.

Can Prayers Heal? Critics Say Studies Go Past Science's Reach

Studies about placebo effects, that's something different. If only these effects were not so weak as they are and if they would show not only in subjective outcome variables...

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 May 07 - 05:02 PM

guest..you risk having your posts deleted if you don't sign them in this area....but I will briefly respond...again...to this overused and poorly understood idea.

leaving aside for a moment worrying why 'Naturalism' is automatically a problem, it is perfectly easy to create and recognize rules & moral principles based simply on common sense. That is how 'most' laws in the world are written. It makes sense to have a rule against killing others, or stealing their property, or coveting their wives...we don't NEED a god to explain these things to us.....and if you have noticed, the 'gods' of various religions don't always agree on the details about what is moral & right.

   The fact is, most of the supposed religious rules are seldom followed exactly as written, but are interpreted freely by religious leaders to fit their notion of what is 'good & right'.

We really need, as a species, to get beyond the idea that we can't operate without looking up in some ancient text the 'rules' about how to live.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 07 - 03:35 PM

why should we believe in god? We should believe in God becaus with out him the only thing to base our rules and morality is ourselves and that automatically leads to naturalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 15 May 07 - 10:34 AM

Interesting responses. Thanks, alla youse. :)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bee
Date: 15 May 07 - 10:33 AM

"Fair enough, Bill. But whether a common event or not, I think the fact that information alone can initiate a positive or negative condition of health is a really telling fact. I suppose you could and would argue that the brain has receptor sites for information, with concomitant biochemical sequelae, and so on. But it's a pretty far stretch, to my way of thinking.
" - Amos

Why is it a stretch? As Bill notes:

"Jiminy, Amos...you take in information all day long that is not exactly 'physical'. Hearing a siren, or seeing a TV show, of reading the paper is not like getting an injection or swallowing a pill...but they can [make] you sad or raise your blood pressure, ot even soothe you if you read the right things. :>) ....why shouldn't knowing of someone's concern (whether thru prayer or not) be just another form of 'information' which can affect your well-being?....without attributing metaphysical properties to it? Adrenaline and various other hormones are triggered by **the brain's** reaction to various stimuli." - Bill D

Anything that affects us on any emotional level, which amounts to a great deal of the non-physical information we receive, will affect our physical bodies because of the interaction of hormones with our brain, blood, heart, etc.

The concept of prayer is one of my personal bugaboos about religion. It's offered as a kind of spiritual multi-tool, good for talking to God, healing, safety, prevention of illness and accidents, good luck for your sports team, etc. Yet there is no evidence whatsoever that prayer works for any of these things. Its only proven use, in fact, is as a personal meditative device much like any other method of meditation, in which one essentially takes control of one's emotions in a positive way. Even then, it has to be a particular approach to prayer, as I imagine your standard passionate 'shouting out to the Lord' type of prayer most likely gets adrenaline flowing rather than slowing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 07 - 10:25 AM

"information that comes in not as sensation (aside from the sound waves or light stimuli), but only as meaning"

ALL information ( except perhaps telepathy) comes IN as sensation- the brain then interpretes the sensory information ( sound, for example) into meaningful words.

Dream and thought might be considered to be meaning, but they have both been shown to involve chewmical activity within the brain: They appear to be memories ( real or false) that are being recalled at random ( or in the case of thought, semi-random)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 15 May 07 - 10:16 AM

Well, of course, Bruce. I was talking about information that comes in not as sensation (aside from the sound waves or light stimuli), but only as meaning. Physically, the impact of someone saying "You are being prayed for" and someone saying "We're having green jello for dinner" are comparable. The learned habit of deriving meaning from such inputs is where all the difference occurs.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 07 - 10:05 AM

"the brain has receptor sites for information"

Obviously- all those nerves providing information ( about the environment and what is happening outside the brain) do go to the brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 15 May 07 - 10:03 AM

Fair enough, Bill. But whether a common event or not, I think the fact that information alone can initiate a positive or negative condition of health is a really telling fact. I suppose you could and would argue that the brain has receptor sites for information, with concomitant biochemical sequelae, and so on. But it's a pretty far stretch, to my way of thinking.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bee
Date: 15 May 07 - 06:23 AM

Okay, that airy evocation of Cayce reminds me of a joke told me by a Cree man regarding the suggestive correlation between the dwindling of buffalo and the influx of White men: "All those buffalo souls had to go somewhere."

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 May 07 - 06:08 AM

How was it generated just by a change in abstract information about a mental process?

Abstract information? They were told they were being prayed for (and I suspect as christians) they were expecting this top have an effect - otherwise even as christians they would be expected not to believe in the power of prayer.

The important control group of this experiment were the two others

Group 1 received prayers and didn't know it; Group 2 received no prayers and didn't know it; there was no difference between the two - so prayer did not help.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: GUEST,ndeBELIEVER
Date: 15 May 07 - 01:34 AM

man is god?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 May 07 - 10:34 PM

"...with no physical input to the system..."

Jiminy, Amos...you take in information all day long that is not exactly 'physical'. Hearing a siren, or seeing a TV show, of reading the paper is not like getting an injection or swallowing a pill...but they can [make] you sad or raise your blood pressure, ot even soothe you if you read the right things. :>) ....why shouldn't knowing of someone's concern (whether thru prayer or not) be just another form of 'information' which can affect your well-being?....without attributing metaphysical properties to it? Adrenaline and various other hormones are triggered by **the brain's** reaction to various stimuli.

"You can get paralyzed by an unwillingness to conclude based on data easily available, for fear you might have to change your mind later."

You can...but doing so is usually an indication of a psychological problem.


"I prefer to draw the best conclusion I can with the data I have, reserving the right to contradict myself with complete certainty in the face of new information."

Hmmm...ok, that explains a lot.
I prefer to work out a system of determining what kind of data justify drawing any conclusion! Sometimes there is just no way to decide, so I don't! I guess this is what pushes me into skepticism. **DOUBT** is easier for me than continuous re-contradicting myself. I do NOT consider myself close-minded and unwilling to accept evidence...I just have a narrow view of what qualifies as evidence

   Differ'nt strokes fer differn't blokes, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 07 - 08:08 PM

It would certainly make the decision clearer and simpler. And, I suspect, more truthful.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 May 07 - 07:54 PM

Oh, WYSIWYG, I would hope for such a day! hee hee

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 07 - 06:31 PM

It is also best not to assume too little.

You can get paralyzed bvy an unwillingness to conclude based on data easily available, for fear you might have to change your mind later.

I prefer to draw the best conclusion I can with the data I have, reserving the right to contradict myself with complete certainty in the face of new information.

The fact that information alone, with no physical input to the system, can precipitate healing OR decline, is extremely central to the questions in this thread -- if knowing can reform matter, then it would appear in some way to be senior to it.

Awful thought, really. Make your hair fall out....

:D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 May 07 - 06:25 PM

Any serious reader will realize that mental state can affect physical change. Bio-feedback and placebos are documented. Exactly how and under what conditions will take a LOT more study. It's best not to assume TOO much while studies are ongoing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 07 - 03:55 PM

IF it had been entirely inefficacious, FD, the control group would have had NO statistically meaningful variation. But they did. A change of mental information correlated with worsening or complications. How do you figure that information brought about a biochemical change? There was no physical difference, acording to the purely mechanical model of life science. You attribute this to stress, but that's an easy answer. Where did the stress come from? How was it generated just by a change in abstract information about a mental process?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 May 07 - 03:41 PM

I grew up with Christians. Christians are taught to always pray: But let thy will, not mine, be done.

So imo people who react badly to knowing they are being prayed for are not in full understanding of the process.

I think the Wiccans have the right idea: Let it be for the highest good.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 May 07 - 03:36 PM

I cannot agree about the back door. If people (remember this is America so the chances are they were christians anyway) were being told they were being prayed for, then they could easily develop the stress that they did - after feeling pressure to get well- knowing they were being prayed for.

The question then is - would atheists feel the same pressure? I would suspect finding a control group would be hard!!

But the question seems well answered to me - the so-called power of prayer was subject to a scientific test (funded let us not forget by an avowedly Christian organisation) and it failed.

I bet if it had passed the test the story would have been shouted about!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 07 - 02:46 PM

Folkiedave, thanks for the clarification.

But, to put the question in another perspective -- if being told one is being prayed for can make an individual develop complications, my impression is the same back door is being opened. In other words, individual cognitive states can govern the healing experience of the organism, simply by changing the data the individual holds on to.

This is not news -- the literature on psychosomatic conditions is rich with examples, not to mention studies of placebo effects. Why should mere data held or not held by a point of view be so able to influence the biochemistry of the body?

That's the core question. That, plus the more fundamental question of "who" holds information, and what a "who" is, anyway.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 May 07 - 02:46 PM

Heard at a local ER:

"Father, should I pull the plug on dear old Edna? What's the right thing to do?"

"Oh dear-- they took morality away from the Church just last week; did you not look up secular humanist in the yellow pages to come visit you to discuss that?"

Imagine that one if you will.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 May 07 - 02:19 PM

If the individual can increase his probability of healing by being told he is being prayed for, whether he is or not,

My understanding of the study was not that at all - but those who knew they were being prayed for GOT WORSE!!

And as I posted earlier it was thought this might be the result of stress.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 07 - 01:20 PM

Those numbers are most interesting, and appear to rebut the cases I referred to from Dossey; but I would have to dig them back out again and I don't have the book available.

However, they ALSO raise another interesting question. If the individual can increase his probability of healing by being told he is being prayed for, whether he is or not, then what does that power of healing-by-postulated-information say about the biomechanical limits of the organism? Seems to me it leaves a wee door into other universes open in the back.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 May 07 - 12:42 PM

Thanks for pointing that out, Bill. I do make it a point to avoid conviction       :-)    while enjoying as many perceptions as possible.

Daylia, the scientists that claim they have proof of "near death experiences" are charlatans.

Frank, that statement is an insult, an attack, and a sweeping generalization. I am not a scientist. I do not take it personally.

WHy do you make assumptions about other people's feelings, by the way?

OF course I have provided no scientific facts here. That's because I have yet to make a scientific claim on this thread. I've posted a personal anecdote or two, expressed my points of view, and defended what I perceive as the 'underdog' on this thread (ie God and believers in God).

And that's all I intend to do on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 May 07 - 12:26 PM

just to be clear..Frank suggested:

"....I suggest you look into the depth of your own convictions."

not perceptions.