BS: Even we can't be this stupid

Subject: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: 282RA
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 06:11 PM

This just can't be true. How do they think this is going to help anything?? Then we have two officers contradicting each other. What the hell is this? I never heard about this before. I never heard so much as a plan for it. This can't be true.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18227048/

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 06:20 PM

They never bloody learn, do they?

I bet the Sunnis will be right pleased at being prisoners who can only go out with an escort.

Ghettos only save trouble for those that establish them, never for the pour souls that have to live there.

I bet the grunts who have to guard them will get off on being between the inmates and the outmates (NOT). They won't know which way to duck, and some of them will die as a result.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 06:26 PM

Ain't it strange, we just move the places where religion kills people around the globe.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: 282RA
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 06:31 PM

Moreover the gate guards will almost certainly have ties to the various militias and we're going to let them decide who goes in and out. Well, that smells highly rotten.

This can't be true. We're not going to turn Baghdad into walled-in gulags. Those Sunnis are essentially in a concentration camp now with the Shiites surrounding them. You can fire mortars and grenades into it and they're sitting ducks.

We're going back to medieval times.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 06:41 PM

If they all keep it up, there will be no Baghdad and no Baghdadites to fight over. Why not just bulldoze it now? (tongue in cheek)

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 06:50 PM

All this reminds me of the occasion when a US officer talking about the devastation of a Vietnamese village in 1968 ( Ben Tre was the name of the place) explained ""It was necessary to destroy it in order to save it".

That's more or less what's been achieved in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:06 PM

One of the all-time great quotes, McGrath...the "Army officer" who allegedly said it has never been identified and the odds are excellent that the statement was invented by journalist Peter Arnett.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: skipy
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:13 PM

Yes we can! we have been before & trust me, we will be again!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:15 PM

Never lay bets underestimating the profundity of human stupidity, amigo. There is no bottom to it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:18 PM

Ha! There are no limits to how stupid "we" can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: John O'L
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:20 PM

I think it's a terrific idea. It worked well for decades in Berlin. The sand curtain? The oil curtain?
The Abramic curtain.
Curtaingate.
It's curtains for you, I've got a rod in my pocket. Is it a curtain-rod?
Why didn't you stop them taking your gate? I thought they might take offense.

Insanity on insanity. What can you say?

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:21 PM

The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:29 PM

I think it would be more fun to start putting up walls in the USA to separate the Democrats and Republicans. ;-) And walls to separate the "liberals" and "conservatives". And walls to separate Blacks, Whites, and Hispanics.

Yeah, baby! Just imagine it.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: kendall
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:44 PM

Where did we get the right to get involved in the civil war of another country?

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:50 PM

Been like that a looong time, Kendall.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:52 PM

BTW, where is that fuckin' useless United Nations?

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 08:47 PM

It will be a very nice thing to have a wall, so that one can launch mortars OVER it without having to hide.

"It is very difficult to discern the difference between a man who can't think and one who won't think."

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 09:13 PM

The sand curtain? The oil curtain? The Abramic curtain.

The Great Wall of China?

The Maginot Line?

Somehow I seem to remember someone pointing out that those within a walled city have no way to escape if the gate is breached.

Doesn't history indicate that once you're thus "protected" you usually, sooner or later, end up being exterminated.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 09:21 PM

Wonder what the northern irish think of this...

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 10:15 PM

I don't get it. Why protect the Sunnis when it is the Shiites who are the victims? The death and carnage of late has been happening in predominately Shiite neighborhoods. The Sadriya district is Shiite.

Are they walling the Sunnis in to protect them or to contain them? Whats the point if the bombs are mostly from al Qaeda? Why do the coalition forces know nothing of this plan? Whose idea was this and who wants it?

"U.S. Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell IV, the top spokesman for coalition forces in Iraq, was quoted as saying Wednesday that he was unaware of any effort to build a wall dividing Shiite and Sunni enclaves in Baghdad and that such a tactic was not a policy of the Baghdad security plan."

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 10:38 PM

The Sunnis were and are the minority. They don't have Saddam. They don't have control.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Bert
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 12:24 AM

I think it would be more fun to start putting up walls in the USA to separate us from the politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 02:42 AM

So everybody seems to agree that it's a stupid idea, but I don't see anything constructive other than to not build it and let them all keep on killing each other.

Incidentally, the wall in Berlin served its purpose while it was needed; now, its gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 06:47 AM

"Where did we get the right to get involved in the civil war of another country?"

We didn't get involved in it Kendall, We bloody well started it, or rather our criminal leaders (on both sides of the Atlantic) did.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 08:27 AM

So much for Teribus's cry of Iraqi sovereinty.

It appears that the Americans have been walling in the Sunnis under the cover of darkness.
"We expect the sunni area to be contained within one month" said one spokesman for the "coalition" on BBC TV.

The criminals who started this mess must not be allowed to walk away...Blair will leave office in a few weeks and public outrage is already on the wane.

At least Blairs actions seem to have ensured that the party which supported him in his war will never again govern in the UK.

Scotland appers set on the road to independence, and no Scottish Labour MP's means the end for Labour in Westminster....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 08:56 AM

Seein' as it is Bush has completely screwed up Iraq, I think that rather than building a wall he should build a nice community for them on his Texas ranch...

B:]

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Stu
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 09:06 AM

"Incidentally, the wall in Berlin served its purpose while it was needed; now, its gone."

True, that too was erected by a morally corrupt militaristic regime as a tool for oppressing the population.

But with any luck, someone will come along who can illustrate (literally) the utter futility of this action using non-violent methods.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 09:33 AM

"the wall in Berlin served its purpose while it was needed;"

Oh, that's right, I forgot; without it, the people of East Germany wouldn't have been able to survive in a peaceful democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 10:16 AM

The Sunnis were and are the minority.

Not in Baghdad they aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 10:39 AM

You have to wonder if the plan is not to protect Sunnis but to get rid of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 11:45 AM

The only wall I ever want to see is the Separation of Church and State.

Wall out Mexican immigrants? Walls between Israel and Palestinians? Walls of new prisons being put up in the US? Does anyone remember the Iron Curtain? And the Berlin Wall?

The biggest wall is the one between rational and insane thinking.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 12:08 PM

282RA - If what Mcgrath says is true, that Sunnis are the majority in Baghdad, then the wall is probably being built to protect Sunnis and keep Shiites out. In the meantime, its the Shiites who are taking the brunt of the insurgency as well. Doesn't seem like the U.S. is working with the Iraqi govt. but against it.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 12:38 PM

illustration of how all plans will work

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 01:27 PM

The more I see of the Iraqi on Iraqi strife the more I am on Bush's side in this incredible mess.

The insanity is confined in Iraq, where it belongs. Obviously the wall is a temporary attempt to solve an intractable problem. Bush didn't create the hate. Saddam controlled the hate by state terrorism. In removing the state terrorism, the pressure in the kettle is venting.

Same thing happened in Yugoslavia and the result has been multiple states and UN guard troops. Clinton took a lot of criticism for US involvement, but in his case he showed much more of that quantity singularly lacking in the Bush administration - Leadership.

Clinton did not hesitate to bomb when it would motivate the Serbs.

Clinton utilized NATO and the UN. He engaged in no breast beating and de-emphasized religion except as pointing out that the majority of the victims were Muslim. In fact, the violence was extreme between and among Catholic, Orthodox, and Muslim. Some longstanding icons of peace between different cultures were destroyed, and a lot of mines were laid and many innocent civilians died. But the West went in with overwhelming force and was for the most part organized.

We are in a more difficult part of the world, and much farther from the West. Still, many of the isues are of a similar nature. Bush's attempt to deal with it is not altogether wrong. Unfortunately, his people were not nearly as competent as Clinton's.

But between Saddam and Bush there is no choice. Between the Osamas and Zarqawis on the one hand, and the US and British and Australian and Canadian forces on the other there is no possible contention. With the most western and enlightened of the Muslim countries putting people to death because betrothed couples are walking hand in hand, cutting heads off for converting to another religion, what is there to seriously say? You want Saddam back? Want to go backwards in time?

Who is really being stupid?

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 01:35 PM

It is really stupid to invade other countries over nonexistent "weapons of mass destruction". Don't be surprised when it leads to trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 02:42 PM

I think it is stupid to unilaterally invade other countries on the unfounded contention of WMDs. I think the earlier invasion of Afghanistan was much better organized, justified, and prosecuted. Iraq is an example of how one shouldn't start something one isn't equipped to follow through on.

It is argued intelligently that it was unwinnable from the start. But certainly, how the US went about running the country after the initial military thrust was clumsy even for us. That doesn't make us evil, it doesn't make the terrorists heroes. It does give them all too many ways to present themselves as heroes, though.

It is a huge conflict of perceptions. But make no mistake. These terrorists are just like Nazis. They have the same self regard and the willingness to sacrifice anyone and anything in achieving their aims. They have world-wide powers of organization, and access to a lot of money.

Plenty of mistakes were made while fighting the Nazis, but it was still necessary to fight 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:33 PM

Hey, you lot elected Junior in the first place... yes I think you CAN be that stupid!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:37 PM

Plenty of mistakes will be made fighting foreign invaders who unwittingly act as the armed mercenaries of giant oil companies...but it will still be necessary to fight them. Until they leave. And they will. Just like the Russians eventually left Aghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 06:13 PM

"but I don't see anything constructive other than to not build it and let them all keep on killing each other."

Lead off, Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:45 AM

>>It is a huge conflict of perceptions. But make no mistake. These terrorists are just like Nazis. They have the same self regard and the willingness to sacrifice anyone and anything in achieving their aims. They have world-wide powers of organization, and access to a lot of money.<<

Sounds way more the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 12:03 PM

>>But between Saddam and Bush there is no choice. Between the Osamas and Zarqawis on the one hand, and the US and British and Australian and Canadian forces on the other there is no possible contention.<<

Who the hell are you to tell us there is no possible contention? Of course there is. You sound like Bush and Cheney. OF COURSE we can contend whether Iraq was better off under Saddam than the way it is now. You'd better believe it can be contended and contended rather convincingly.

>>With the most western and enlightened of the Muslim countries putting people to death because betrothed couples are walking hand in hand, cutting heads off for converting to another religion, what is there to seriously say? You want Saddam back? Want to go backwards in time?<<

What evidence do you have that Saddam had people's heads cut off for walking down the street hand-in-hand? Saddam was not at all a strict Muslim and this was supposed to be breaking some Muslim taboo although I have no proof that it is actually true. The amount propaganda thrown around today because of this war makes me take everything I read with a grain of salt. Do I want Saddam back? Pretty stupid question since he's dead and it's a totally moot point now. Would I rather have left him in power? To avoid our current situation, yes. If we aided some Iraqi group to overthrow him, I could have gone along with that. But not this--no, absolutely not.

>>Who is really being stupid?<<

Anyone who says the present situation is still better than Saddam.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 05:16 PM

Iraqi prime minister Malaki today ordered the Americans to stop construction of the wall, saying that "there are other methods of protecting our citizens"

It appears that the Iraqi government had not been informed about the walls construction.   So who really runs Iraq?
We are fed bullshit on a daily basis and we swallow it up.
The fact that there are still people out there who believe the war was a good thing, or that our governments tell us the truth, depresses me......Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 05:22 PM

Here's the Link

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 10:01 PM

"BAGHDAD, April 22 (Reuters) - Iraq's prime minister said on Sunday he had urged the U.S. military to halt work on a wall separating a Baghdad Sunni enclave from nearby Shi'ite areas after sharp criticism from some residents.

The cement wall around the district of Adhamiya is part of a new U.S. military tactic to protect flashpoint neighbourhoods with barriers, in a security crackdown in the capital that is seen as a final attempt to halt civil war between majority Shi'ites and minority Sunni Arabs.

Car bombs killed 18 people in Baghdad on Sunday and gunmen shot dead 23 workers from an ancient minority sect after pulling them off a minibus in the northern city of Mosul in an apparent revenge attack.

Speaking in Cairo at the start of an Arab tour to drum up support for Iraq, Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, a Shi'ite Islamist, said he objected to the 5-km (3-mile) wall, which residents said would isolate them from other communities and sharpen sectarian tensions.
"I asked yesterday that it be stopped and that alternatives be found to protect the area," Maliki said in his first public comments on the issue.

"I said that I fear this wall might have repercussions which remind us of other walls, which we reject," he added.

Some Adhamiya residents have compared the wall to barriers erected by Israel in the occupied West Bank.

The U.S. military sought on Sunday to play down any hint of friction between Maliki and American commanders behind the Baghdad plan, saying it would coordinate with the Iraqi government and Iraqi commanders on how best to establish security measures.

"The government of Iraq and MNF-I (Multinational Force-Iraq) do agree that we need to protect the people of Iraq. How that is done is always being discussed and we will continue that dialogue," the military said in a statement."

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 10:54 PM

Did they really think they were going to build this thing in secret? This is just bizarre. Who gave the orders to construct this wall and where did they get the funding? I can't imagine a decision as this wasn't approved by Bush. Yet his generals don't know about it. They need some investigations into this. What the hell is going on here?

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 10:56 PM

Sorry, AKe, I didn't see your post before I added mine.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:00 PM

"What the hell is going on here? "

What is 'a president who answers to no one and is completely out of fucking control'?

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:38 PM

Jeapardy is more than a notion.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:40 PM

So is Jeopardy.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 02:34 AM

And some people think the Muslims are backward. It sounds to me like they are the only ones doing any thinking.

"Isolating parts of Baghdad with barbed wire and concrete barriers will inflict social and economic damage and it will lead to more sectarian tension," it said. "This measure will harm the residents and it will have a negative impact on the areas instead of solving the problems." - The Sunni Iraqi Islamic Party

...and these were the people they were supposedly protecting by building the wall.

I agree. There needs to be an investigation. Who ordered it and who was contracted to build it?

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:47 PM

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The future of a U.S. military plan to erect concrete walls around Baghdad neighborhoods was in doubt Monday amid a growing outcry from Iraqis who said the barriers would fuel sectarian discord.

A day after Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki ordered a halt to the construction of a 12-foot wall that would separate Sunni Muslims from Shiite Muslims in the northern Adhemiya neighborhood, American officials said they'd reconsider plans for that barrier and several others in Baghdad. But they dodged questions over whether the construction would stop, and an Iraqi military official said it would continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Peace
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:49 PM

Organization is the key . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Even we can't be this stupid
From: Peace
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:56 PM

"Even we can't be this stupid"

Wanna bet?