BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:41 AM

Lori Drew, 47, has been charged in Federal court with one count of conspiracy and 3 counts of accessing protected computers without authorization. While serious, each count carries a penalty of up to 5 years in prison, none of the charges is for murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 11:03 PM

Not a prank by a fellow student, but by an adult - a parent, with demonstrated intent...

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: heric
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 10:48 PM

And while we're at it how about the air marshalls who gunned down that paranoid guy escaping a plane in Miami? ( . . . speaking about bringing in the police as overkill.)

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 05:26 PM

I am still trying to figure out why a woman is being charged with murder for pretending to be a teenage boy and courting and dropping (hard) a girl who then committed suicide. If a teenage boy had done the same (they often do)and the girl committed suicide, would he now be charged with murder?
Are teenagers therefore to be held hostage by a threat of suicide?
I don't get it. It was a mean thing to do...but murder?

High schoolers play mean pranks all the time. A trip to the principal, a public apology, maybe a suspension. Bringing in the police is overkill.

Which reminds me - what happened with the man who bought a lemonade for his son/nephew and was arrested for child neglect? Anyone know?

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 23 May 07 - 04:57 PM

"Before I felt like I fit in"

He probably said that because he had never before been ridiculed or bullied in the school. That doesn't mean that he told anyone of the situation when it occurred. Like I said, anyone could have reported the incident.

The principal suspended the bully with the approval of his parents. This tells me it wasn't the first incident.

To expect the boy to "laugh it off" at the time is asking too much. It makes me wonder what he did do?

When FOX asked him how he felt about it, I guess he should have said, "What sandwich?" - (thanks, heric)

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: heric
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:44 AM

what sandwich?

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:26 PM

Dianavan--try the first posting: "Before I felt like I fit in". Said after the fact--of course--but fairly obviously speaking to his desires at the time of the incident.

Charlie--there has to be a middle ground between a knife in the ribs and an appeal to the authorities for something to be done about the sandwich, the latter of which will be perceived as needing adults to fight your battles. It seems fairly reasonable that middle way would be to say nothing--except to your parents when you get home. Obviously the main culprit in the sorry affair is Fox News--for exploiting it. But the superintendent played right into their hands--by overreacting. Talk to the young lout responsible for the sandwich--but that should have been the end--unless, as I said earlier, he has a record of such actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:12 AM

Well, I for one think this thread is settling down to describing the reality of the situation, or as close as one can from away. There are outstanding questions but they're unlikely to be resolved in our lifetime, even on this forum.

Things in Lewiston will get better or worse, but at least there is evidence that people there are trying to intervene in a positive fashion.

Ron-

There is a danger that if the Somali student had stood up for himself in a traditional fashion the non-Somali student would have had a knife in his vitals. I'm pleased that no knife work was involved. A threat response by the Somali student, on the other hand, might well have been ignored by the non-Somali student who would not likely realize that the issue could become a mortal one.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:11 AM

Ron - Can you show me where anyone has claimed that it was the Somali boy who protested the sandwich?

He may have stated that he just wanted to fit in, much later - in other words, after the fact. Anyone could have reported the incident to a teacher or the principal. The media made a big deal and the kid says, gee, I just wanted to fit in. This is his fault?

heric - Too funny. You are absolutely right, there are many ways a kid could respond to the sandwich. In my high school it would have meant a fist fight or a food fight. I'm sure the Somali kid was simply mortified. He probably wanted to slither under the table and disappear.

The point is, the Somali kid had absolutely no cultural reference. He would not have the faintest idea how to handle such an insult.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:55 PM

Lost my cookie--but I suspect you could guess who wrote the last posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:53 PM

Charlie--

I agree with you about standing up to jokers. But that would mean in this case: either ignoring the sandwich, putting it very obviously in the trash, or more effectively--waving it around and asking loudly "Is anybody missing this?"--or something similar. Not seeking adults to punish the alleged miscreant--that just confirms that you need adults to fight your battles--you're helpless by yourself. I would have thought you'd learned this in high school or before.

This boy said he only wanted to "fit in"--therefore was not about to fight back in the above way. I'm still waiting for anybody who thinks protesting the sandwich was a good idea to say exactly how that approach would help him "fit in".

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 May 07 - 10:27 PM

Ron-

Geez, haven't you learned that sometimes one gains respect for standing up to "jokers"?

Where did you go to school?

And, yes, sometimes it labels you as a "complainer" and you lose.

It's a tough call if you're a minority.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 May 07 - 09:53 PM

Charlie-

So life in Lewiston is not easy for a Somali. This sort of reaction to a ham sandwich does not make it any easier.

And, I repeat, the boy only wanted to "fit in"--did you not notice this? How did protesting the sandwich help in this?

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: heric
Date: 20 May 07 - 09:45 PM

"I don't think it's nice, you throwin that ham." ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 May 07 - 09:43 PM

Dianavan-

You're spot on in this debate, and that's not easy to do when you are not a resident of the community that all of you "from away" are talking about. Ron is off-base on this incident and Dickey... oh well, why waste time trying to even reason with him.

Life for the Somalies in Lewiston is not going to be easy but it's more promising than in Somalia, and they're willing to work and learn. Fortunately there are enough people in greater Lewiston to encourage them in this process.

If I had the power I'd be temped to transport some Mudcatters to Somalia and watch how well they adjusted to the society they found themselves in.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 May 07 - 09:02 PM

Dianavan-

I would think that most kids in the Somali boy's place would feel intimidated--and NOT want to draw attention to themselves. I would have felt intimidated--I'll tell you that. And said nothing. Somebody, however, told the boy it would be a good idea to protest the sandwich. And that person did the boy no favor.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 May 07 - 07:38 PM

Dickey - This is not about the Palestinians

Ron - Sorry if I misunderstood you. I don't think it was the Somali kid who called attention to the incident. The media called attention to the incident and to the kid. If I were the kid in question, I'd find it hard to fit in, too. The entire situation focussed attention on him. He was just expressing his feelings.

You simply cannot compare his feelings or responses to what a Jew would do in the same situation. Most Jewish kids in public schools are not new to the school system.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:04 PM

You now know why our elders always said "Don't play with your food."

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: mg
Date: 20 May 07 - 03:21 PM

Well, the Palestinians are victims of a whole lot of land "transfers", water appropriations, etc. It's a horrible situation all the way around. I don't believe the Palestinians want to dominate the world but maybe I'm not reading this right. I guarantee if you met some in person you would like them a lot. They are wonderful people in a terrible situation. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Dickey
Date: 20 May 07 - 11:27 AM

Dianavan:

I think you are the one that spreads hate as evidenced by your pro Iranian, Pro Hezbollah anti Jewish, givem em shit attitudes.

I think the Pallestians are victioms of their so called government and used as tools to try get revenge in Israel. If they would settle down and be peaceful, thwy could attain their own soveriegnty. But that is not the objective of their "leaders". The real objective is to dominate Israel and all of the middle east and possibly the world.

You will no doubt disagree vehemently and try to support it by calling me hatefull, stupid lazy etc. like you have in the past. If you really want to make your point, present it in factually rather than emotionally.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 May 07 - 11:08 AM

Dianavan--

The Somali boy said all he wanted to do was "fit in"--and he said that before the incident he felt he did. My point is that making a big deal of the sandwich, especially done by the superintendent, is the worst possible way for him to fit in. Why is this not so?

Do you think the Somali boy thinks he "fits in" now? If not, why not?

Interesting that "arrogance" seems to consist of disagreeing with you. You may be able to find examples of arrogance----but this is not one.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:41 AM

Oops, Dickey, you're off topic again and spreading more of your hate for Palestinians, and Muslims, in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Dickey
Date: 20 May 07 - 12:52 AM

I am not religious or a watcher of religious shows but this morning all I could find for my grand daushter to wach was a religious show about Sampson with puppets. After it went off the TV was left on and I heard several lessons being taught about tollerance and sharing. For example two kids were given three pancakes and one was mad because the other got two and what to do in such a situation.

I thought how odd it is that Palestinian TV is broadcasting shows with a Mickey Mouse like character teaching little kids to hate and how to get back at their "enemies" and Christians are doing the opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 May 07 - 09:39 PM

I hope I didn't kill this thread.

Carry on, catters.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:15 AM

I've really messed up this time. I started another thread because I thought this had been deleted for some reason. I'll copy my post and hope that a clone will delete the duplicate.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Although I hadn't posted to the thread about the Somali boy who was bullied by another student with a ham sandwich, I was following it with great interest. I found it interesting that, with the exception of heric and a couple of others, most of you don't seem to understand how harmful bullying can be.

I just want to say that in order for children to learn, they must be in an emotionally safe environment. If they feel teased, picked on, threatened, de-valued, ostracized or bullied, they are emotionally unsafe and are so busy dealing with their feelings that they can't learn. District policies vary but I would say that any kid who intentionally taunts another child should be reported to the principal. What the principal does with that information depends on district policy.

I find it odd that some of you are seemingly insensitive to the needs of a Somali child who probably came to the U.S. via a refugee camp. Do you have any idea what these kids have been through or the culture shock that they are experiencing? Sitting quietly in a lunchroom with non-Muslims would be a feat in itself. I'm surprised the Somali kid wasn't pushing his way to the front of the line so he could be fed. Thats what refugee children have had to do to survive.

I have no sympathy for the little jerk who threw the ham sandwich on the table in front of the Somali Muslim. It was a deliberate act of cruelty. I'm glad the bully's parents backed the suspension by the principal.

Some of you think that because you were teased as a child, its O.K. for kids to tease and bully today. Its not! Alot of things used to be acceptable in the past but that doesn't mean they were right. Past actions are no justification for today's bullies. You can't have it both ways. Either schools protect all children or they protect none of them. You decide.

Ron - I'm sure that you are right about the response of most American Jews. If however, the Jewish boy had come from a refugee camp (or any other camp) in the desert where he had to fight for food, I think he might have been affected in a similar manner. Keep in mind, the Somali boy was probably adjusting to many cultural differences. His response was perfectly normal. He just wanted to fit in.

Why compare the Somali to a Jew on the basis of ham alone? There is really no comparison. Muslims are considered the enemy by many in the U.S. Somalis are usually black. This child was probably learning English. Your comparison is not really about a Somali child, its about your need to show that Jews are in some way superior. I'm disappointed to learn how arrogant you are. Have you ever experienced war, hunger or homelessness as a child?

btw - I doubt very much if it was the Somali kid or his parents who complained. It was probably other kids who witnessed the act of unkindness and reported it to a teacher. Good for them! Any so-called news agency who chose to distort this story and make it seem like Muslims demanding special treatment should be called to task. The real story was about bullying, the hate crime was committed by FOX.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 07 - 04:55 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 May 07 - 02:07 PM

heric-

I'm not saying the Moslem child was a whiner--I don't think he was----just that his reaction--probably advocated by his parents--was not helpful--to himself. The report (not Fox) quoted him as saying how much better things were before the incident--that all he wanted to do was "fit in"--and up to then he thought he did. If you want to fit in, you don't want to call attention to yourself--and that's what protesting the sandwich did--in spades, thanks to the stupid overreaction of the superintendent.

Obviously the kid who put the sandwich on the table was a young lout--no argument there---who just wanted to get a rise out of the" foreigner". Unfortunately, he got one.

A much better idea, as I said earlier--and what a Jewish child would likely have done--is to push the sandwich down to the end of the table, or throw it out. Without a word. And then go back to talking with your friends.

And drop the subject.

A sandwich may be sometimes "more than a sandwich"--but it doesn't have to be if you don't overreact.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 07 - 01:17 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: heric
Date: 05 May 07 - 12:47 AM

Well it is strange Ron because I have no particular affection for Muslims and I entirely agree that no appeasement of Islamo-fascists is necessary e.g in the cartoon fracas. But I don't like Fox or the lesser sites stirring up a hunt for such enemies where they don't exist.

The weird thing now is you and I screaming as to what a not-big-deal (very small deal) it is, and yet for opposite reasons. I think we agree that we don't know the specifics.

I read a lot of it and I don't have the initiative to confirm which is the UPI report, but the way I remember it is some louts tossed a paper bag with an unwrapped ham steak in the center of the lunch table, then smugly waited for one of the Somali boys to reach in.

To me that was the tosser's way of reaffirming his approval of the pig head incident, but I could be reading too much into it.
I agree that the kids should not be little whiners for any reason, but we don't really know the extent to which they were. And we do know they didn't start any of this. At age 15 I had not yet perfected my Clint Eastwood demeanor, and I was born here. I just see the burden more on the kids who started it, I guess.

Peace I want some of those little eloquence pills you're taking.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 07 - 11:02 PM

eloquently said




but I still think emotion needs to govern the gut, if only to motivate a reasonable mind to action.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 07 - 09:44 PM

Many years ago a wise judge--I know that may seem an oxymoron to some people--decided that some kids who'd defaced a beit knesset with spray-painted swastikas should find out the magnitude of what they'd done. With the help of the rebbe, they had to research and do a fairly large research essay on the history of the Jews with emphasis on the Holocaust. If I recall correctly, there were four youths involved. They had two months and they did as the judge ordered. The tale does not end with any of them converting to the Jewish faith, but of their own volition they requested the right to address the people whose house of assembly they'd desecrated. Wearing yarmulkes they stood in front of the people they'd offended and apologized.

There are times a ham sandwich is more than a ham sandwich. There are times when people make really stupid choices. There is certainly enough blame to go around. And unless the tone changes on this thread, the same will be said of it. Reason vacates the mind when emotion governs the gut.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 07 - 09:44 PM

Sorcha: the bags of pig blood aboard Isreali buses to deter muslim suicide bombers
IS A FACT -

not a fiction or invention of mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 May 07 - 09:40 PM

heric--

One more thing. If you would do just a tiny bit of research, you would find that I am in fact one of the most outspoken Mudcatters in favor of immigrants' rights. I have come out more than once for a path to citizenship for all illegal immigrants--without any having to return to their supposed "country of origin" for "touch-back"-- the latest slogan of the Neanderthals who bleat about "amnesty". I am also in favor of driver's licenses for all illegals--prohibiting licenses is not going to stop them from driving--and I'd rather have people on the road with licenses. And I'm dead against the brilliant suggestion recently made to revoke the automatic citizenship of all children born in the US--including children of illegals.

You might check my thread "Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend"--in which I argue that if the Democrats had sense they would band together in support of immigrants' rights--not least since it is a classic wedge issue to split the Republicans.


But the fact remains that a ham sandwich is not where to draw the battle lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 May 07 - 09:20 PM

Heric--

Please do yourself the favor of reading the UPI report--did my first sentence escape you?

I made up nothing--check Mickeyy 191's post of 28 Apr 2007 8:20 PM.

Exactly why is UPI not a reliable source?

Then you can simmer down from your high dudgeon of the" Dickey Davies duo"--(rank slander, by the way--and therefore not your usual style.) He and I both believe the incident has been blown wildly out of proportion-- a ham sandwich should not be a cause celebre. There the similarities end.

I've said that neither the anti-Mexican nor the anti-Somali attitudes are justified--did Dickey say this?   And exactly where is my "contempt" for the Somali boy--direct quotes please.

I'm sorry he made a bad choice--due to bad advice. If I have contempt, it's for the superintendent--who made a trivial incident something much worse--and helped nobody by doing so--including himself.

Then perhaps we can discuss the issue without wild accusations. I'd be particularly curious to have you tell us how protesting the sandwich--sorry, that's what UPI says--has helped the boy. As I said earlier, one of the things you learn in school is what battles to fight.    Do you deny this? The choice he made was not a good one--and the superintendent made it worse.

As I said earlier, there's absolutely no reason this incident should ever have been considered so significant that we would even hear of it. It should have been at most an affair within the school.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: heric
Date: 04 May 07 - 10:44 AM

It would have gone better for the kid if he lied, sure. I think we can all agree on that too. It would have spared him the contempt and ridicule of the Dickey Davies duo and hundreds of anti-immigrant websites. Doesn't change the fact that he was just sitting there eating his lunch. His "failure to lie" was not a crime justifying this storm of outrage generatd only by anti-immigrant types and no one else.

(If you think the parody-as-fact information is wrong, why do you perpetuate the "ham sandwich in a baggie" part of the joke, which is the primary thrust of the mocking and ridicule.)

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 May 07 - 03:40 AM

Mary--

We only know what we read. I would say UPI is a pretty good source, wouldn't you? Fox is despicable--I think reasonable people should agree. The approach they took in mocking the "ham sandwich" incident is particularly revolting.

The fact remains that "a public forum held by the city's Sun Journal" had to be "halted because of the overt hostility on display"--sparked by this incident, with others in the background. It's also obvious that rolling a pig's head into a Somali mosque is totally unacceptable.

So why the "overt hostility"? I think it's obvious that one of the main reasons is a perception among many Americans who've been here for a while that recent immigrants are not willing to do what other immigrants have always done--assimilate. If you doubt this look at some of the rather intemperate remarks about Mexicans in the US--in Mudcat, yet.

Both the people who rail against Mexicans who "refuse to learn English" and those who resent the Somalis in Maine are dead wrong. I think we can agree on that.

I also suspect--though I have absolutely no evidence--that local Maine boys have been killed in Iraq and that the sight of Somalis makes certain people in Maine think of Iraqi insurgents--or Osama.   Look at the treatment given Sikhs right after 9-11 in the US--just for wearing a turban. So there are definitely bigots in the story.

But if you ask for special treatment, you are playing right into the hands of the bigots. If you disagree, exactly why?

And saying you are "hurt, offended" by a ham sandwich being placed on a table "where Somali students were eating" is asking for trouble.   As I said, do you think a Jewish student who keeps kosher would have reacted the same way?   Not if he's smart--and gets good counsel from parents etc. The Somali boy got wretched advice. And the school superintendent has blown this incident way out of proportion--"one student was suspended and more disciplinary action was possible". Suspended? Talk to the offending student if you like. Only if that student has a history of much worse should a suspension be considered. "Hate crime"?   The sandwich does not rise to this level. But the overreaction stokes hate. And so does Fox.

But as I said earlier, anybody who would push the student to protest the ham sandwich is doing him no favor. Now he's the center of a firestorm--and has established himself as the perfect outsider. When all he wanted to do was "fit in". This is not the way to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: mg
Date: 04 May 07 - 12:41 AM

We don't know enough about the situation to assume it was harmless...it depends how it was done, was it truly just leaving something there? Or was it done in a threatening way, as in I know how to push your buttons and I will..and if the child on the receiving had been traumatized by war etc...who knows what went through his or her head...Trust me, a determined 14 year old, girl or boy, can transmit a whole lot of information through a ham sandwich. I don't know if that was the case here or not.

It makes me recall the days when Catholics were scared to go to public schools, and one real reason was the lunch situation..fear of being served, and somehow being made to eat, meat on Friday. We could be around it , we just couldn't eat it...I am sure there were cases of kids being held down by other kids and made to eat it...And there was also the fear of just the temptation....faith was taken quite seriously by us in those days, and still is by many people....

We can't accomodate each and every religious rule that people come here with, but we can't deliberately insult them either...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 May 07 - 10:57 PM

In fact, Peace, Jewish kids come off well in this--as far as we know they are not protesting ham sandwiches being put in front of them. They probably would ignore something like that--which is what it deserves--just push the sandwich to the end of the table and continue talking with your friends. Their attitude is much more sensible than that of the Moslem child--probably pushed by his parents--and amplified by the stupid move of the principal--which has blown this trivial incident way out of proportion. There is no reason that it ever should have had so much publicity that we should ever have heard of it.

There is virtually no parallel with the Imus situation. The sandwich could be ignored--and should have been. The Imus situation should not be ignored--and it was not. The Imus remark was one of a series of remarks--I don't care if he was paid to "push the envelope"--he should have realized there was a boundary he could not cross. And he crossed it--again--he had done it several times before.

Maybe CBS radio is also culpable. That does not let Imus off the hook. He signed the contract--he knew what he was walking into--and he can't complain financially--his stupid schtick has piled up enough so he can retire comfortably, to say the least, tomorrow. My sympathy for him is limited.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Dickey
Date: 03 May 07 - 10:33 PM

Who let the Sneetches in?

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Peace
Date: 03 May 07 - 08:19 PM

Keriste, how did the JEWS get in this now? I suppose someone will be along to blame THEM for the mess!

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Dickey
Date: 03 May 07 - 07:41 PM

I have assiciated whit Jews who have the same religious beleifs about pork. They will eat just about anything including crabs at a gathering.
[crabs are a scavenger animal and considered non-kosher or treif along with any shelfish or fish without fins and scales]

They always say they "keep Kosher at home" and never stir up a ruckus over what is served to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 03 May 07 - 05:54 PM

True Peace, if that would only be done! The problem with that though is that the teacher's (parent's) mind already has been corrupted with the dogma of their own beliefs, and that is passed to the next generation. Somehow a way must be found to break this cycle.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Peace
Date: 03 May 07 - 05:16 PM

"The first step is to teach peace and tolerance in our schools without any religious interference in education. If this could be a worldwide goal of the UN it would at least be a starting point."

That is, IMO, the second step. The first step is to teach it in homes, then the second step won't be necessary in a hundred years.

Subject: Words ADD: Star Belly Sneetches - Dr. Seuss
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 May 07 - 03:50 PM

Now, the Star-Belly Sneetches-
Had bellies with stars.
The Plain-Belly Sneetches-Had none upon thars.
Those stars weren't so big. They were really so small.
You might think such a thing wouldn't matter at all.
But, because they had stars, all the Star-Belly Sneetches
Would brag, "We're the best kind of Sneetch on the beaches.
With their snoots in the air, they would sniff and they'd snort
"We'll have nothing to do with the Plain-Belly sort!"
And whenever they met some, when they were out walking,
They'd hike right on past them without even talking.
When the Star-Belly children went out to play ball,
Could a Plain- Belly get in the game…? Not at all.
You only could play if your bellies had stars
And the Plain-Belly children had none upon thars.
When the Star-Belly Sneetches had frankfurter roasts
Or picnics or parties or marshmallow toasts,
They never invited the Plain-Belly Sneetches.
They left them out cold, in the dark of the beaches.
They kept them away. Never let them come near.
And that's how they treated them year after year.
Then ONE day, seems…while the Plain-Belly Sneetches
Were moping and doping alone on the beaches,
Just sitting there wishing their bellies had stars…
A stranger zipped up in the strangest of cars!

"My friends," he announced in a voice clear and keen,
"My name is Sylvester McMonkey McBean.
And I've heard of your troubles. I've heard you're unhappy.
But I can fix that. I'm the Fix-it-Up Chappie.
I've come here to help you. I have what you need.
And my prices are low. And I work at great speed.
And my work is one hundred per cent guaranteed!

Then, quickly Sylvester McMonkey McBean
Put together a very peculiar machine.
And he said, "You want stars like a Star-Belly Sneetch…?
My friends, you can have them for three dollars each!"
"Just pay me your money and hop right aboard!"
So they clambered inside. Then the big machine roared
And it klonked. And it bonked. And it jerked. And it berked
And it bopped them about. But the thing really worked!
When the Plain-Belly Sneetches popped out, they had stars!
They actually did. They had stars upon thars!
Then they yelled at the ones who had stars at the start,
"We're exactly like you! You can't tell us apart.
We're all just the same, now, you snooty old smarties!
And now we can go to your frankfurter parties."
"Good grief!" groaned the ones who had stars at the first.
"We're still the best Sneetches and they are the worst.
But, now, how in the world will we know," they all frowned,
"If which kind is what, or the other way round?"
Then came McBean with a very sly wink.
And he said, "Things are not quite as bad as you think.
So you don't know who's who. That is perfectly true.
But come with me, friends. Do you know what I'll do?
I'll make you, again, the best Sneetches on beaches
And all it will cost you is ten dollars eaches."
"Belly stars are no longer in style," said McBean.
"What you need is a trip through my Star-off Machine.
This wondrous contraption will take off your stars
So you won't look like Sneetches who have them on thars."
And that handy machine Working very precisely
Removed all the stars from their tummies quite nicely.
Then, with snoots in the air, they paraded about
And they opened their beaks and they let out a shout,
"We know who is who! Now there isn't a doubt.
The best kind of Sneetches are Sneetches without!"
Then, of course, those with stars all got frightfully mad.
To be wearing a star now was frightfully bad.
Then, of course, old Sylvester McMonkey McBean
Invited them into his star-off machine.
Then, of course from THEN on, as you probably guess,
Things really got into a horrible mess.
All the rest of that day, on those wild screaming beaches,
The fix-it-up Chappie kept fixing up Sneetches.
Off again! On Again! In again! Out again!
Through the machines they raced round and about again,
Changing their stars every minute or two.
They kept paying money. They kept running through
Until neither the Plain nor the Star-Bellies knew
Whether this one was that one…or that one was this one
Or which one was what one …or what one was who.
Then, when every last cent
Of their money was spent,
The Fix-it-Up Chappie packed up
And he went.
And he laughed as he drove
In his car up the beach,
"They never will learn.
No. You can't teach a Sneetch!"
But McBean was quite wrong. I'm quite happy to say
That the Sneetches got really quite smart on that day,
The day they decided that Sneetches are Sneetches
And no kind of Sneetch is the best on the beaches
That day, all the Sneetches forgot about stars
And whether they had one, or not, upon thars.



Dr. Suess

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 03 May 07 - 03:40 PM

I often wonder why people with religious beliefs that show the least tolerance for the differing beliefs of others are the first to claim offense at perceived insults to their own faith.
While the ham sandwich incident was an ignorant act to describe it as an act of hate goes way overboard. Tolerance and respect sometimes must be earned and showing tolerance as well as expecting it may be the best road to travel. So many people have died fighting over the centuries because of stupid religious beliefs that a ham sandwich is hardly the most important issue. In order for the world to live in peace and harmony religious bigotry from all sides must stop! The first step is to teach peace and tolerance in our schools without any religious interference in education. If this could be a worldwide goal of the UN it would at least be a starting point.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Dickey
Date: 02 May 07 - 10:27 PM

C'mon Ron. It doesn't hurt so bad does it?

Back when that World Cup Soccer crap was so intense I saw someone say that in Germany, Brits were carrying around model WW2 fighter planes and pushing them into the faces of the Germans while making airplane noises.

I think that was rather rude but war was not declared over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 May 07 - 10:11 AM

It's actually quite surprising just how fine the line can be between what is considered a joke and an insult, even when the perpetrator is a so called adult.

What may seem a jolly little jape to one person can be surprisingly hurtful to another if it hits a sensitivity. Unfortunately teenagers have not, in general, got to the point where they can think things through to the ultimate conclusion, nor are they really aware of just how much their fun can impinge on others. Mostly, IMHO these kids are not being racist, sexist or any other type of ist - they are generally just performing for an audience of their peers and trying to make themselves look clever.

The shame of it is that some people just never grow out of that habit and, even in their so called mature years, don't get that line, or don't consider that it should apply to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 May 07 - 11:39 PM

Believe me, Charlie, it pains me to be on the same side as Dickey on anything--it's an unnatural act.

But if you can't tell the difference between spitting in somebody's face and putting
a ham sandwich in front of him, you need to think this through a bit more. This is so unlike you--you're usually a very clear thinker.

Since I suspect you were a kid at one time, you might consider this: Kids need to feel they are not outsiders--that they belong. A great way to ensure that you are considered an outsider is to insist on special treatment. Protesting that you should not have a ham sandwich in front of you--when nobody else would complain--is asking for special treatment. And thereby making yourself an outsider--needlessly.

Not smart.

Look at what the boy said: "Before I felt like I fit in and everything was normal" That tells you what he wanted. He wanted to fit in. This is precisely the wrong way to do that. In fact, it will get you a reputation as a crybaby who needs adults to fight his battles--and an outsider.

Since I was a once a child, I know this is true. And you may also recognize it.

Anybody who would push the boy to protest the ham sandwich is doing him no favor.

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 May 07 - 12:15 PM

Sorry! My apologies too. I guess I should not jump to conclusions!!! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 May 07 - 11:49 AM

Ron-

Sorry if I puzzled you and any other Ron's except for "Ron Davies".

I should be more specific. Ugh!

Charley Noble