BS: Language -American/English

Subject: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 May 07 - 05:58 AM

I was surfing on Youtube and I came across a discussion between Jay Leno and Eddie Izzard on differences between the the American and British versions of the English language. Jay was amused that the British would say, " I starting university in September", whereas Americans would say "...the university". However, would Americans say", I'm starting at THE Yale University in the fall" Or, "I'm starting at Yale University..." Any thoughts on the subject?

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 07 - 06:14 AM

Some American English comes from Irish immigrants. To me, 'going to the university' sounds like an Irish accent.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 May 07 - 07:19 AM

I'd guess that in common speech most in the US would consider the "the" redundant, as there is only one Yale university. The "the" might be used in very formal written matter but would not be common in speech.

An acquaintance who did some typing for an admisssions office administrator at MIT (what most people called it) about 50 years ago remarked that he insisted that it always be "the M.I.T.," but most others in the office left off the "the." The particular administrator was otherwise considered a bit peculiar, as he was British, and my acquaintance was forced to find other employment as his accent was unintelligible (to her) on dictaphone recordings.

A "confounding" factor in that case is that most others would have considered it appropriate, when spelling it out, to say "the Massachusetts Institute of Technogy" but would use "M.I.T." or "MIT" as an acronym (without "the") rather than as an abbreviation where, for technical "correctness" it would be appropriate in formal usage.

It should be remembered though that the distance from New York on the east coast to Sacramento on the west coast is about 2/3 as far as from New York to London, and there's lots more "culture" in the intervening space (unless you consider fish as social animals); so there are lots of regionally deviant speech practices in the US. Generalizations about what "an American" would say are likely to be fairly questionable in the next county, much less at opposite ends of the country.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 May 07 - 08:11 AM

The estimable JohnInKansas said, in part:

but would use "M.I.T." or "MIT" as an acronym (without "the")

"MIT" is not an acronym for the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. It's not commonly pronounced as "mitt", but rather spelled out vocally.   It is an initialism, like USA, IRS, FDA, NFL, and CBS. On the other hand, the short vocal form "NASA" the National Aeronautics and Space Administration is pronounced "NASS-A", as a word, so it is an acronym.

"M.I.T." is an abbreviation.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: Grab
Date: 02 May 07 - 08:33 AM

British usage makes more sense, I think. "The university" - is there only one in the US? ;-) Nope, it's "going to uni" in the same way as "going to school" or "going to work".

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 May 07 - 08:39 AM

Everybody here in Charlottesville knows that The University is UVA...

But I've run into interesting things with British versus American English. Apparently "quite" means "slightly" in British and "very" in American in a sentence like They were quite amused. Very different interpretations!

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 02 May 07 - 09:19 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 02 May 07 - 09:28 AM

Irish Usage:

"Going to University" implies partaking of a course of study at a university.
"Going to Hospital" implies "is a patient"

Going to the university would be used if the speaker & audience both already know which university is meant.
It could also mean physical presence at the university, but not attendance on a course.

My sister is going to university, she is a third-year Electrical Engineering student.
My dad is going to the university today. He is going to un-block some pipes. Next week he is going to the hospital to install some new bathroom fittings.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 May 07 - 09:31 AM

Ah, but Americans say, "I'm going to college in the Fall" and not "I'm going to the college in the Fall" except when only one college can be assumed (as in a one-college town, such as where I was raised up).

Just to add to the confusion....

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 May 07 - 09:45 AM

I think most Americans would specify "I"m going to Harvard" or "I started at USC in September" rather than say "I'm going to the university". I don't think that I'd automatically accept Jay Leno as the final arbiter of American-English grammar and usage.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 07 - 10:53 AM

The people I stayed with in Louisville would say "I'm in school tomorrow". They were studying for a doctorate at the university.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: leeneia
Date: 02 May 07 - 11:14 AM

Americans don't say "university" much. Why say five syllables when you can say two - "college."

As in "I want to go to college when I get big."

"He's going back to college in September."

"She's a college English teacher."

Brits seem to achieve the same brevity by shortening "university" to "uni." Ugh.

As for "the", it usually means that one particular thing is being referred to. When Americans say, "The baby is in the hospital," they are thinking of the hospital as a building, almost certainly a building known to the speakers. For example, where I live it would be Children's Mercy Hospital.

When a Brit or Brit substitute says "The baby is in hospital," I believe he means that the baby is in the high-level system of medical care, not in a building.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 02 May 07 - 11:24 AM

'Uni' is Australian - it only became common in England when programmes such as 'Neighbours' and 'Ramsay Street' arrived.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 02 May 07 - 11:26 AM

And not all colleges are universities.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: Greg B
Date: 02 May 07 - 12:41 PM

Some assert that American usage and accent is actually similar to
British usage before 'the queen's English' became standardized.

Anyway, the one that always bothers me is 'going to the bathroom.'

I mean, if you have to pee, and are on the way to do so, you're
'going to the bathroom.' Once you arrive there, what's the first
thing you do? You 'go to the bathroom.' Now how can you do that, as
you're already there? On the other hand, if you 'go to the bathroom'
on the way to the bathroom, you've just 'had an accident.' On top
of all that, there's absolutely no assurance that there is, in fact,
a toilet in the 'bathroom.' In a loo, or a WC, there certainly will
be, but if it's simply a 'bath room' you can't go to the bathroom
there, or at least would be considered quite rude for having done
so.

Anyway, I...oh, excuse me, I just have to step down the hall for
a moment.

(Has he been... ---yes, after breakfast.)

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 May 07 - 12:59 PM

Greg B. In the UK, the expreesion, "I'm going to the bathroom" means just that! i.e. I'm leaving now and making my way to the room that houses the bath", and, of course, in lots of British homes, that room also contains the toilet( the thing you sit on ).

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 May 07 - 03:00 PM

In parts of eastern United States, the expression "I'm going to home," rather than "I'm going home," is heard. Especially Pennsylvania, New Jersey, if I remember correctly. Origin could be German; I haven't looked it up so I'm guessing.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 May 07 - 03:07 PM

Two Nations divided by a common language !

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: Greg B
Date: 02 May 07 - 03:13 PM

Then again, in the UK 'I want the loo' implies that someone
should bring you one.

I did notice in Britain that not a few homes of varying ages
sensibly located the washing facilities (i.e., basin and
bath) in a separate space from the W.C. Quite rare in
the US, where we solve the privacy problem by simply having
scads of 'bathrooms.' (How about when Fr. Stone walks in on
Fr. Ted in the bath and asks to use the toilet, is given
the nod, and promptly drops 'em and has a sit-down right
next to Ted's nose?)

Here's a related ambiguity. 'Going to the bathroom on the
floor' is considered very rude--- but how the hell else are
you supposed to get there? Traverse the walls?

Use of the euphemism 'lavatory' was popular in the US until
the late 60's, then it fell into disuse.

In US English, the kitchen term 'sink' may refer either to
the basin or to the surrounding counter surface, particularly if the
latter is covered in ceramic tile, although 'kitchen sink' rather
consistently refers to the basin. Similarly, what's called a 'cooker'
in Britain is over here a 'range' or a 'stove,' the 'stove' is
more commonly used for a cooker/range which is gas-fired; electrics
tend to be 'ranges' if equipped with an integral oven, or 'cooktops'
otherwise.

It's only a frigidaire if it's made by Frigidaire, but in any
case it's just called a 'refrigerator' or 'fridge.'

We don't Hoover, we more generically vacuum.

We don't 'reverse' the car, we 'back up.'

Should we get started on pluralization?

In Britain, a single entity made up of a number of sub-entities is
more often pluralized. In US usage, when talking about the House
of Reprentatives, it will be said 'The House of Representatives is
voting on the bill' whereas the BBC would say 'The House of
Representatives are voting on the bill' or even 'The House
are voting' which latter is very awkward to American ears but
actually correct as it is not the House which votes but rather
the (plural) members of said body.

'Go' is a much more common term in Britain to denote a resignation
than it is in the US. "The commentators disagree on whether the
Prime Minister would go following the vote of no-confidence..."
In US usage, 'go' would be more closely delineated---- 'be fired'
or 'resign' or 'quit.'

American men can wear suspenders to keep their trousers up, even
manly men. British male MPs have been known to show up in the
scandal sheets having been photographed wearing 'suspenders.'

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 May 07 - 03:40 PM

Nothing wrong with British men wearing supenders they hold socks up.

It is only politicians who insist on wearing a lady's 'suspender belt' who risk being pilloried for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: MMario
Date: 02 May 07 - 03:56 PM

usage in the US in locales where there may be multiple univeristies and/or colleges can become quite involved. In the town I currently reside in - if one goes to "the college" it means Keuka College. "the colleges" means Hobart and William Smith. anywhere else is is usually referred to by name.

When I was attending school in Ithaca, if one went to "the college" it was Ithaca college; if one said they went "to college" invariably they would be asked "which one" - since Cornell Univeristy has a number of colleges within the university, plus there are several local community colleges as well as Ithaca College. "The univeristy" would be Cornell.

Technically I was a student at "The State University of New York at the New York State Agricultural College at Cornell University" which is a mouthful. However "I'm an aggie" told people where I attended.

the State University of New York is usually referred to as "SUNY" (pronounced soo-knee) and a comment of "I go to SUNY" will usually be followed either by a specific campus locale - or someone asking "Suny WHERE?"

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: Alice
Date: 02 May 07 - 04:23 PM

What's Engish
(as spelled in thread title)?

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 May 07 - 05:45 PM

I grew up in New Jersey, and NEVER heard anyone say "I'm going to home," as reported above. Of course, maybe that's usage in South Jersey (Philadelphia area), alien territory to me.

I've never heard Americans anywhere use the phrases "to university" or "in hospital" in the British fashion, without interjecting a quick, understated "the." However, "in college," "at college," "to college," etc., are perfectly normal verbalizations hereabouts and almost never used with the extra word "the." Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 May 07 - 06:06 PM

'John' has pretty well replaced other terms, at least in my hearing.

I have a 'loo' table made in England (a circular table on which loo and other card games are played). I think the game is obsolete everywhere now, so only antique furniture collectors know the term.

I think Poppagator is correct; occasionally the English usage is heard, but the speaker is a fan of UK whodunnits or has spent time in eastern Canada.
Sorry if I maligned New Jersey, PoppaGator. I knew a fellow who used 'going to home' regularly; he lived in New Jersey and worked in NY- he could have come from Philly. I have run across it in the novels by Constantine, which are set in Pennsylvania.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: Azizi
Date: 02 May 07 - 08:36 PM

Fwiw, I grew up in South Jersey, and I had {and still have} relatives in West Philly so was there alot. Plus I went to school {meaning "college"} in North Jersey. And like Poppagator, I "NEVER heard anyone say "I'm going to home" as reported above."

We'd say "I'm goin home".

But when I came to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania I heard some folks say "I'm going to my crib" which means the same thing as "I'm goin home". But that's slang which is a whole 'nuther subject-or
at least it's another facet of the same subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/Engish
From: Azizi
Date: 02 May 07 - 08:49 PM

Also, African Americans {and other folks?} say a person has
"gone on home" to mean that he or she had died. And a "home going service" means the funeral service.

I only heard that last phrase about four years ago, but it may have been used long before then. However, I definitely didn't hear "home going service" when I was growing up or when I was a young adult {which was many moons ago}. We'd say a person "passed away". And the "funeral service" was called a "funeral service" and the time before the funeral service when people would "pay their last respects" was {and still is} called the "viewing". And the community meal after the grave yard service was {and still is} called
"the repast".

We didn't have "wakes" which I hear tell is part of some folks' traditions.

This may be too much morbid information. In case anyone is wondering, I got from college to funerals via the phrase "going to home" which I never heard before-and for that matter, I still haven't "heard" it. But I read it for the first time on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Greg B
Date: 02 May 07 - 10:32 PM

New Jersey, existing as it does between Philly and New York, has
probably the most diversity of expressions and accents of any place
in the US. People from areas near each metropolis sound very similar.

On the other hand, folks from, say, 'the Brunswicks' have a very
distinctive accent and vocabulary.

In North Joisey ('Bergen (Boigen) County' well known as Sopranos country), the funerary practice is to have two or three 'viewings' at which the immediate family will be present for the whole time, and at
which friends and more distant relatives will 'pay their respects.'

This is the point where people say 'Sorry for your loss.' Frequent
response is 'whaddya gonna do?' Someone will chime in 'at least
he/she didn't suffer' if the person had the decency to have a
massive coronary or stroke. Or in fact, even if they died a slow
death of cancer. (This is why people who've ever lived in North
Jersey laugh uproariously when the Sopranos are waking Olivia,
Tony's mother.)

Unlike Irish wakes, N. Joisey Italian wakes are really awful,
alternately boring and morbid affairs. The men run outside to
smoke as often as possible. Everyone runs like hell when the
Rosary Altar Society descends upon the place to say the Rosary,
as tradition dictates that you can't escape in the middle of it.

The longest of these, the last evening before the funeral Mass and
subsequent internment, is often called 'the wake.'

The funeral proceeds from the mortuary, to the church (if a Mass is
to be said), then past the deceased's home, to the cemetery.
Following internment, everyone goes out to eat at a local Italian
eatery--- big buffet. Ingestion is to N. Joisey Italians what the
up-beat Jazz funeral procession from the graveyard is to New Orleans
residents.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 May 07 - 03:24 AM

Growing up in the England, I was always surprised to find out that certain,to me, everyday words, would be unknown elsewhere in the country. For example, the words "mither/mider" ( meaning to bother or annoy) are common in the north of England but pretty much unknown in the south of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 03 May 07 - 05:42 AM

To me, 'I'm going to my crib' suggests 'I'm going home to bed'.

When I went to northern Scotland someone needed to explain to me that if someone asked 'Where are you staying?' they didn't mean 'Are you in a hotel or staying with friends?' but 'Where do you live?'

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Azizi
Date: 03 May 07 - 08:07 AM

Topsie, I think that is how the word "crib" came to be slang for "home", since a crib is a baby's bed. Of coursed, a "baby" is slang for one's adult partner, but in this context I mean an infant or a child who is up to one year of age.

A child who is 1-2 years old is called a "toddler" and a child who is age 3-4 years is a "pre-schooler" even if he or she doesn't go to pre-school. After "pre-school" comes "elementary school".

Children who are elementary school age {usually 5-11 years old} are called "kids" :o)

Elementary school used to be called "grade school" but I haven't heard that term much lately.

Which grades make up elementary school vary from place to place and from time to time within those places. Nowadays, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and its surrounding area, public {and private?} "elementary school" usually goes from kindergarten to 5th grade.

Teachers and other shool personel sometimes refer to "primary" and "intermediate" grades within the school system. Primary grades are kindergarten to second grade. Intermediate grades are all the rest of the grades in that school. But I don't think that the general public knows or uses this terminology.

In the Pittsburgh, PA area, after elementary school, children become "youth" or "pre-teens" and these youth/pre-teens go to three years of "middle school" {6th-9th grade}.

When I was growing up in Atlantic City, New Jersey in the 1950s, "middle school" was called "junior high school". And junior high school was grades 7th-8th. I understand that Pittsburgh used to have this same junior high school system in the 50s but by the time my daughter was going through school in the 1980s, that public school system had switched to a middle school system.

After going to a middle school {which usually is in a separate building but might not be}, "pre-teens" become "teenagers" when they graduate from middle school to high school {or even if they don't graduate to high school. But that's a whole 'nuther story}.

"High school" {grades 9th-12th} is sometimes called "senior high school". But this could be confusing since students in the 9th through 12th grade are referred to as "freshmen", "sophomores", "juniors", and "seniors".

Then if they go on to college, the seniors become freshmen and so on as they move through that educational system. Btw, as was mentioned in a post above, "college" usually means the same thing as "university" as in America, two syllable words are preferred to words with one syllable or three or more syllables.

But that's also a whole 'nuther story...

I was talking about grades. Here's another thing. While kids {children} are moving through those educational systems, from elementary school {grade school} through high school, they usually get "grades". These grades are recorded on a report card that the children/youth take home to their parents/guardians. "Grades" include check marks for behavior and specific alphabet letter to denote how well or how poorly the student does in certain subjects in that grade time period.

When I was in school, the grades were-from best to worse-"A", "B", "C", "D", and "F". This was the same grading scale that was used in Pittsburgh for a long time, but for some reason-the failing grade was changed from a "F" to "E". But my school teacher daughter tells me that parents still say that their child got a "F" when the child actually got an "E".

By the way, teachers are called "teachers" through all of these grades, though a college {or university} teacher may also be called a "professor". In elementary school through high school, the head of a particular school is called a "principal". The principal may have an assistant who is called a "vice-principal". Lately, some larger schools-usually those which have elementary school and middle school in the same buildings, have one or more 'deans' which are the same as the "vice principal" position. Public high schools also have "deans".

Private schools may also have deans, but I wouldn't know about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 May 07 - 08:27 AM

Yeah we do say things differently, for instance Americans say ' Mr President ' and we say ' seriously derranged moron '

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Greg B
Date: 03 May 07 - 08:49 AM

The North/South of England thing reminds me of a folk music debate
which has raged in the New York area.

When William Main Doerflinger got 'The Leaving of Liverpool' from
Dick Maitland, he got the final line of the chorus as 'But me
darling when I think on you.'

A faithful collector, Bill recorded it exactly as he had it from
the source. Maitland, in turn, claimed to have heard it through the
open porthole of a f'oc's'le.

A number of us asked Bill about it over the years, and his explanation
was always that that was the way he collected it, so that's the way
he published it.

Anyway, many performers have fixed the song so it rhymes--- "...when
I return united we will be. It's not the leaving of Liverpool that
grieves me, but my darling when I think on thee." Some of the
New York area 'purists' have been pretty adamant that it's 'you' and
not 'thee' citing that 'thee' is an ancient usage that never
would have been in vogue at the time the song came about (and we
can date it fairly positively by other references).

At this, as the grand-progeny of a gen-u-ine Lancashire family
which emigrated to California in the 1920's and whom I remember
quite well, I always chuckle derisively. For they've obviously
never heard the speech of a Lancashire (or Yorkshire) native
born between 1895 and 1905. If they'd heard my grandparents or
my aunts and uncles talk amongst themselves, they'd be singing
a different lyric! They might not have been saying 'thee' in
London when the Davy Crockett was plying the seas, but they
sure as heck were in Manchester--- and, one supposes, over in
the 'Pool.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 03 May 07 - 09:38 AM

Going back a few posts ……

Mrrzy - But I've run into interesting things with British versus American English. Apparently "quite" means "slightly" in British and "very" in American in a sentence like They were quite amused. Very different interpretations!

Not as simple as that. British 'quite' can mean both as in 'He was quite annoyed' meaning very. Marvellous language this is !

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Bill D
Date: 03 May 07 - 11:04 AM

You can tell a lot about someone's origins by whether they stand "in line" "on line" or "queue" (and I have no idea whether 'queue' needs an article.) In Kansas, we stood IN line, suggesting that one was part of the line. "On line" always seemed to me to indicate that the 'line' was on the ground, and one needed to locate it and stand there....

YMMV

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 03 May 07 - 11:19 AM

They might not have been saying 'thee' in
London when the Davy Crockett was plying the seas, but they
sure as heck were in Manchester--- and, one supposes, over in
the 'Pool.

Theein' an' thouin' has never (in my lifetime) been associated with Liverpool, probably because of the Irish influence. The second person singular form seems to have changed about the end of the 17th century, and only held on in conservative communities- agricultural areas or areas where the mills and mines developed out of an existing tradition, like Lancashire and Yorkshire.

Quakers of course stuck to the thee form for many years, having adopted it as a classless address (and suffered for doing so), only to see the rest of the language jump the other way. And it only dropped out of poetry when poetry stopped being prissy.

So I suspect that the singer through the porthole sang either "my darling when I think on ye", which would both be standard usage and rhyme, or "..thee" as a poetic gesture.

I suppose Americans would wonder about the function of another Lancashire character of my grandparents' generation. His function was exactly what the title said. The knocker-up went round in the early morning, knocking people up.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Bill D
Date: 03 May 07 - 11:22 AM

well, re: 'knocking up'....there's an expression where the English version make a lot more sense than the American one.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 May 07 - 01:08 PM

I got confused when I looked up the schools in my home town and found 'middle schools' instead of junior high schools. Don't know when the powers that be decided to change but it seems to be all over now. Hmmm, widespread is better usage. Is 'all over' widespread?

Azizi, that phrase 'to home' bothers me I called a friend, and he said that he had heard it in the Pittsburgh area a long time ago, from the steel workers. They were Polish, etc. Perhaps 'to home' has died out in the 50 or so years since he heard it.

I have heard the English use 'quite' in another way. Someone makes a positive statement, and the response is 'quite,' which can mean
1. You are spouting nonsense, but I don't want to argue about it; 2. I agree. The tone of voice differs depending on the meaning.
Maybe someone can enlarge on this.
'Hmmm' also seemed to have more than one meaning depending on intonation.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: GUEST,Wordless Woman
Date: 03 May 07 - 01:10 PM

As one who was reared in southern New Jersey, still resides there and works in Philadelphia – well as soon as I finish this post – I have never heard anyone say "going to home". That's not to say I haven't heard more than my share of odd pronunciations, unusual phrases, and poor grammar.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 May 07 - 01:15 PM

Herself, who was raised in Pittsburgh, claims she has never used (or even heard) "to home". Of course, she also claims not to ever use the local second-person-plural of you - "yuns" - or to call a chipmunk a "grinnie"...but I know different! (that would be "differently", for you pedants)

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Bill D
Date: 03 May 07 - 01:42 PM

I seem to remember someone 'elderly' (that means as old as I am now) remarking that they were staying 'to home'....but never in any other use.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Greg B
Date: 03 May 07 - 02:17 PM

Karen's Maine family, when they head up to summer by
Pushaw Lake, are 'up to camp' not 'up at camp.'

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 May 07 - 02:21 PM

Bill D, that too. I guess I am elderly (tiresome old ....), too, since many of my comments are based on what I heard late 1930's-1970.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Amos
Date: 03 May 07 - 02:28 PM

Being "to home" is well-established usage, dating back to the days when poeple used to call on each other only at agreed-on times when the resident was not only at home, but also inclilned to receive callers. Although grammatically incorrect, it has a long usage.

New Englanders frequently use similar construction, such as going up to town, and over tuh thuh mainland (said of islanders).

A

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: GUEST,Black Hawk unlogged
Date: 03 May 07 - 02:29 PM

Dead right 'Q' - or should I say 'you are quite right'.

One word with so many meanings depending on tone of voice.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 May 07 - 03:30 PM

Not grammatically correct, Amos? It is grammatically "correct", because it is a long standing accepted standard useage in the spoken language of a particular area--when you move out of the area, it isn't appropriate any more because it tags you--

Correct grammar is really a matter of politics-when you use certain grammatical structures, you are tagged--you become associated, in the mind of your listeners/readers, with the other people who use those same structures--

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Amos
Date: 05 May 07 - 03:32 PM

Well, there's often a wide gap between descriptive rammar and prescriptive grammar, and obviously it is inly incorrect from the prescriptive viewpoint.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: bubblyrat
Date: 05 May 07 - 04:23 PM

Propur speling hellps, two. !!

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 May 07 - 05:02 PM

Greg B assured us:


In US English, the kitchen term 'sink' may refer either to
the basin or to the surrounding counter surface, particularly if the
latter is covered in ceramic tile, although 'kitchen sink' rather
consistently refers to the basin.

That's strange. In my seventy-six years in the US, I've never heard "sink" used to indicate the kitchen working surface, regardless of the material from which it's made.   Someone working on the counter beside the sink might describe himself as "at the sink" because of the propinquity to the basin, however.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Micca
Date: 05 May 07 - 05:30 PM

One that has always confused me is the use of "momentarily"
American=in a moment
British= for a moment

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Amos
Date: 05 May 07 - 06:21 PM

Actually in American English both meanings are used, and differentiated by context.
I have always heard the work area near a kitchen sink to be called the counter.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Alice
Date: 05 May 07 - 06:37 PM

The sink is where the water goes. It is not part of the counter around it. Greg B, maybe that's just something your mom used to say!

Alice in Montana

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Anne Lister
Date: 05 May 07 - 07:45 PM

Working in a UK prison recently with young (white) lads, mainly from the UK Midlands, I came across "crib" as in "home" ("I was going to my crib when I saw him"). Most intriguingly, there was also "Yam" meaning "eat" or "bite" ... "My dog would yam him", "I wondered if there was anything to yam".

Both words used enough over two days for me to be sure of the meaning, but both words very new to me in this context!

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: GUEST,Scoville at Dad's
Date: 05 May 07 - 08:20 PM

I could see someone saying they were "at the sink" if they were working in the kitchen in general and their hands were wet or had food on them, so they didn't want to go handle something else (as in, to open the door, answer the phone, break up a sibling squabble), but I've never heard of the term "sink" being generalized to the counter around it in common usage.


* * * * *

I've never heard anyone say "to home, but then I've never been to New England (I did live in eastern Pennsylvania as a child, twenty-five years ago, but I don't recall hearing it and apparently my parents never picked it up if they heard it). It's definitely not generalized throughout the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 06 May 07 - 06:23 AM

As with 'momentarily', 'presently' can vary. I grew up thinking it meant 'in a little while' but then found that in Scotland it means 'at presemt', which is more logical.

I am told there is an area of Yorkshire where 'while' is used to mean 'until', which is not a big problem until someone comes to a railway crossing with a warning that that says 'DO NOT CROSS WHILE LIGHTS ARE FLASHING'.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 May 07 - 10:49 AM

In the US, (e.g. Minnesota and Indiana)I've heard "to home", not as where one is going or will go, but meaning what I'd express by "at home".

As: "Ya got a nice cat there. I got one like it to home." Actually that would sound more like "one like it t' home."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 07 - 04:35 PM

Yeah, Uncle DaveO,

I've come across this one, and I think it may be of German origin, as for example Ist Herr Schmidt zu hause?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 May 07 - 06:05 PM

I'm not sure why we seem to EXPECT language to be consistent over thousands of miles, dozens (or tens if you prefer) of cultures and a fistfull of centuries!

That said:
(i) On baths/rooms: I remember spending a summer in London as a student, many years ago (England managed to win the soccer World Cup at the time). Living in "digs" at the time (don't start me on "diggings"!), I announced one night that I was "going to take a bath"! My landlady demanded to know where I was taking it. Apparently the English "had" a bath!

(ii) There was a mention of Irish hospitals earlier in this thread. Irish people often speak of someone as being not just "in the hospital" but"in in the hospital" where Standard English would expect one preposition and no article - "in hospital". The explanation is that it derives from the Gaelic structure "isteach san ospidéal"

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 May 07 - 06:19 PM

Reading some of the later contirbuitons to this thread (zu hause etc.): in fact, use of prepositions is often a good clue to origins. In spoken (Hiberno-) English in Ireland, you will still occasionally hear expressions like "I've known him with years" - which is, again, a direct translation of the Gaelic for. Needless to say, the same person would never WRITE such an expression.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Anniecat
Date: 06 May 07 - 06:29 PM

In 1970ish, I went to New York for 6 months to look after 3 children. I was met at JFK by the mother and youngest daughter aged 4. I spent the whole of the journey to their apartment trying to understand them and thinking "Oh My God, this is just as hard as it had been when I worked with a family in Germany - I don't unerstand a thing".
The parents went off sailing to Antigua after 2 days and would not be in contact so I had to get on with it (is that an expression you have too?). We had fun and games making ourselves understood and they laughed at the usual "Stay on the pavement/sidewalk" etc. I had a problem with them not understanding fortnight/two weeks and twice/two times along with a lot of other expressions which we as au-pairs had to learn in order to be understood.

Of course, when we got home, our Mum's wondered why we kept needing a bath and why we said two times instead of just twice.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 May 07 - 06:31 PM

An earlier contribution (Jeez - I typed it roight dis toime, didn't I!) gave:
Growing up in the England, I was always surprised to find out that certain,to me, everyday words, would be unknown elsewhere in the country. For example, the words "mither/mider" ( meaning to bother or annoy) are common in the north of England but pretty much unknown in the south of the country.

We Irish use "moidered" in the same sense. I've seen attempts to gloss it as Gaelic in origin, but am not convinced.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Azizi
Date: 06 May 07 - 06:36 PM

With all this talk about home & college, no one has mentioned the college "homecoming king and homecoming queen". This couple are selected during a college's {meaning also university's} "homecoming" week.

I suppose that "homecoming" weekend is called that because that's when special activities are held and former students are encouraged to come back "home" to visit that campus.

**

Switching gear, how about words that come from brand names? I find myself still saying "zerox" when I mean that I am going to use the copy machine to reproduce a paper. So what am I "supposed" to say instead? I'm going to copy the paper?

And how about "pampers" for disposable diapers?

And "bandaids" for well, bandaids?

Do folks outside the USA recognize these terms?

And what brand names to you have that have become so familiar that they are used for the item or function itself?

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 May 07 - 07:42 PM

Oh, well, Black Hawk, the one thing I thought I knew...

Kleenex
Kotex
Tampax
Why are all good generics ending in X?

I also ran into an interesting problem in translation between American Sign Language and American English... apparently the deaf (signing) community refers to not-signing deaf people as Hard of Hearing. To the deaf, in other words, "hard of hearing" means "not part of the deaf (signing) community." So once when my sign language was good I saw someone refer to someone else as "very hard of hearing" which I took to mean, oddly enough, very hard of hearing, e.g. practically deaf. Turns out they meant very far from the deaf community, e.g. only slightly hearing-impaired. Oops!

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Azizi
Date: 06 May 07 - 08:43 PM

Mrrzy,that was an interesting comment about American Sign Language and American English.

And re: those "x" ending products you listed, maybe someone started a trend and all the others copied off of it.

Maybe it's like because of Watergate, people think that every American scandal has to end in "gate".

Btw, Mrrzy, I take it that you are American {meaning from the USA}?

Do "non-UnitedStaters" use these brand names as a referent for their generic products?

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 May 07 - 09:42 PM

I'll just mention the tendency (nay, the drive, the compulsion!) to shorten an adjective-noun combination to just the adjective, making the adjective do the job of the whole combination.

Thus, "a transistor radio" is now "a transistor".   "Nylon stockings" became "nylons". I noticed back when I was a magician that what must originally have been "a silk scarf" was universally called "a silk".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 May 07 - 09:55 PM

Azizi, some (many?) English 'Hoover' a rug. They also have (or did?) have a kind of water heater called a geyser, which I think came from a product name. And Thomas Crapper is memorialized by 'crapper.'
I still say Xerox, but with my computer set-up, I am beginning to say 'scan.' Of course I remember when Kodak was widely used for any personal camera. 'Blueprint' is still used figuratively, but the computer put most draftsmen (draughtsmen?) out of work.
Will 'photograph' continue in use now that 'digitals' are replacing film cameras for much personal and news photography? (I recently found out that "Arizona Highways" and other mags with fine illustrations still request large film negatives for their scenic illustrations; the 35mm and 10+ mp 'digitals' do not produce good enough images for better photographic illustration).

Knickers seems to continue in use in England, although that item of clothing used in golfing and climbing sports in America has largely disappeared. Or are knickers still some peculiar kind of underwear that they have in England? Never did know what they were. Hmmm, what are long johns in England?

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 07 May 07 - 05:28 AM

And then there's 'fanny' of course - Americans can give quite the wrong impression if they don't realise which bit of the female anatomy that refers to in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Azizi
Date: 07 May 07 - 08:18 AM

Okay, I'll bi...

Umm...I'll ask.

I know what a fanny is in American {USA} English.

But, what's a fanny in UK English?

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 May 07 - 10:09 AM

Azizi,
'Fanny' is the female sex organ.

I remember working on security at the Sci-Fi Worldcon in Glasgow and taking in bags before people wandered the Art exhibits. I explained to several people that when we also asked that they 'check' their 'bum bags' it was what they might term 'fanny packs'. I also explained the difference in usage of 'fanny'

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 May 07 - 10:10 AM

Alternately, back in the war years, it was an abbreviation for the Female Auxilliery Nursing Yeomanry.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 May 07 - 10:13 AM

I know about fanny because my Tasmanian brother-in-law about died laughing when I mentioned my fanny pack...

Yes, I'm American - born in the USA but (thankfully) raised overseas, so I see the US as a foreigner. That is, I see the US the way a foreigner would, not as if it were a foreigner. My, language is a lousy means of communication sometimes...

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Scoville
Date: 07 May 07 - 12:54 PM

Re: "To Home"--could have been of German or English heritage, I would think; do they say it in Canada (which is near Minnesota)? Or maybe I didn't know enough Pennsylvania Dutch [Deutsche] when I was a kid.

Hmmm.

* * * * *

I'm laughing at how occupations can mess up one's vocabulary. I work in an archive. We don't have a lot of Xeroxes but we break things down into photostatic copies, xerographic copies [from which Xerox derives its name], etc., which age and have to be preserved differently.

Wikipedia list of genericized tradenames. I notice that they omitted "heroin", though.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 May 07 - 01:22 PM

Another oddity of Southern US English is their use of "ain't it" - now, in French, no matter what the verb or tense or person, at the end you can add n'est-ce pas. In English, normally your tag has to agree with your sentence in verb, tense and person, e.g.:
He went to school, didn't he? versus Il est alle a l'ecole, n'est-ce pas?
She goes away, doesn't she? versus Elle part, n'est-ce pas?
and so on.
But in the South they tend to use Ain't it as a tag on any sentence, as in He went to school, ain't it? or She goes away, ain't it?

Do the british have anything like that in any of their dialects? What do the cockney say, for instance?

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 07 - 05:52 PM

My impression is that "ain't it", generally pronounced "innit", is increasingly being used in just that way in demotic English English..

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 May 07 - 01:13 PM

Mrzzy- I ain't heard 'ain't it' as an add-on in the South in the phrases you mention.

I have heard didn't altered; "she went away, din't she?"
This sort of approaches the English 'innit' but a different root.
Also "It's true, ain't it?" or "That's a big load, ain't it?" but never "He went to school, ain't it?, which doesn't make sense. It would be "He went to school, din't he?"

(In parts of Canada, it would be "He went to school, eh"? But this 'eh' is nowhere near as prevalent as some would suggest; I haven't heard it in Alberta, where I hang my hat at present.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 08 May 07 - 10:48 PM

I remember having a conversation with my British brother-in-law—I think it was on my first visit to Britain, in 1985—comparing the British term "ballocks" to the American term "bullshit." (My brother-in-law, being married to an American, was better informed about American usage than the average Brit.) I asked him how Brits would react to the term "bullshit." He answered, "They would know what you meant, but they would also know you were American."

That was then; this is now. On a later trip, I read through a copy of Private Eye (one of the most British of publications, nearly unintelligible to an American) and found several instances of the word "bullshit" in articles that made no reference to Americans.

I think there are more Brits who understand "bullshit" than Americans who understand "ballocks," and this is probably true about all slang, owing to the fact that Brits see a lot more American-made TV and movies than vice versa.

Is "ballocks" losing ground to "bullshit" in Britain?

* * *
In Microsoft Word, if you click "Tools", then "Language", then "Set Language" you are then offered these options (among others):

English (Australian)
English (Canadian)
English (Caribbean)
English (Ireland)
English (Jamaica)
English (New Zealand)
English (South Africa)
English (United Kingdom)
English (United States)

This array astonishes me. I am somewhat acquainted with the differences between American English and British English, and I know that switching between these options changes the behavior of your spell-checker. (One way, it flags "behaviour" as an error, and the other way, it flags "behavior," and so on.) But are all these other varieties of English really significantly different? Is Word really smart enough to distinguish accurately between them?

(By the way, I'm using Word 97. I haven't seen any compelling reason to upgrade. Is it different in newer versions?)

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Scoville
Date: 08 May 07 - 11:49 PM

But in the South they tend to use Ain't it as a tag on any sentence, as in He went to school, ain't it? or She goes away, ain't it?

I ain't heard that, neither. ;-)


I'm with Q: I've heard a slurred " 'in't he?", as in "didn't he" with the d's smeared, and I've heard "He's IN school, ain't he?" (with matching temporal context), but not with mixed tense.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 09 May 07 - 05:22 AM

I have never heard anyone anywhere use the term "ballocks". Are you being coy, or is this just a result of the American pronunciation of the vowell 'o'?

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 May 07 - 07:41 AM

Sorry--it's a simple misspelling. I guess I was reasoning by analogy with the American word "balls". Bollocks it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Azizi
Date: 09 May 07 - 08:14 AM

Speaking of words that seem to signal nationality, what about the word "bloody" when used as a down putting adjective?

For example, there's the title of this Mudcat thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=101433&messages=36 "BS: Bloody Freecycle!"

I never knew the word "bloody" was used this way until I read Mudcat threads from Britons, Canadians, and {I think} Australians.

With regard to the above mentioned thread title-I wasn't sure what a "freecycle" was until reading MBSLynne's initial comment.
Before I read that post, I thought a free cycle was a bicycle that someone was giving away for free. And I thought a "bloody freecycle" described a bad accident on a bicycle where the scene or the person riding was covered with a lot of blood.

I wonder what word we UnitedStaters use instead of the British word "bloody"? For those who don't curse, maybe it's a word like "darn". But for those who do curse, it's other four letter words {which-since I'm such a good girl-I'll refrain from writing}.

:o)

Also, I wonder if freecyle" is a newly coined words that quickly crossed the ocean from the UK to the USA but maybe I have the directions reversed.

??

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 May 07 - 08:36 AM

By the way, I did run my spell-checker before posting the message with "ballocks." It flagged it as an error, but it didn't suggest "bollocks" as an alternative. (It also flags "bollocks.") It does suggest "bollix" and "bullocks," among other things. This happens regardless of whether I set my language to American or British.

Maybe this is corrected in later versions of Word.

And the misspelling "ballocks" doesn't imply (to me, anyway) a different pronunciation from "bollocks." Isn't the vowel pronounced the same as in "balls" anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Donuel
Date: 09 May 07 - 08:45 AM

I prefer irish and british accents

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 May 07 - 09:18 AM

OOh, yeah, nothing sexier than a brogue... and no, I am not a shoe fetishist!

Q - I agree it doesn't make grammatical sense. Nonetheless, I do hear that around these here parts.

Also: store-boughten, as in, did you make that cake or is it store-boughten?

Also mixtures of coulda shoulda wouldas that don't occur in nature (well, in grammatical English), as in She might could do it, or he shouldn'ta oughta done that.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 07 - 09:19 AM

I would say that you are talking ballocks if what you say is nonsense, possibly because you are misinformed, possibly because you are prejudiced.
Bullshit, on the other hand, is a deliberate attempt to mislead people, either to make yourself seem superior, or to put a "spin" on a political situation.
so, where did "spin" come from?

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 May 07 - 09:20 AM

Also, I have been reduced to using Bloody a lot since I've banned god, damn, heaven and hell from my swearing. You have Bloody or you have (&^$(&$0^%#.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 May 07 - 09:38 AM

In Britain the use of "Isn't it" on the end of a sentence, regardless of person or number or tense, would probably be regarded as a Welsh usage.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Marje
Date: 09 May 07 - 10:21 AM

Brand names: in the UK we don't use Xerox as a verb, we'd probably say, "I'll photocopy this" or ".. make a copy of this". We do have Kleenex but we don't generally use it as a generic term, we say "tissues". Band-aids are not the most common brand of plaster dressing, it's Elastoplast, so if we don't just say "a plaster" we might say "some Elastoplast". "Sellotape" is one brand name we use a lot, for transparent sticky tape; I understand that Australians call this "durex" but believe me, you don't want to try that usage in the UK.

Knickers are indeed still worn in the UK, but they're also called pants - and that doesn't mean trousers, it means what USians call "panties". They're often marketed as "briefs" but that's not normal spoken usage. "Tights" are what we call US "pantyhose" (I think).

I hope this has all helped avoid embarrassing international misunderstandings.

Marje

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 09 May 07 - 05:14 PM

In the U.S. "tights" are the opaque, thicker form of leg-covering that runs all the way to the waist. "Pantyhose" are the sheer ones. Tights are more often, but not exclusively, worn by little girls and often come in bright colors. So, both terms are common but imply slightly different articles of clothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 May 07 - 08:19 PM

BATHROOMS, etc.

I wonder how "going to the bathroom" came to be the standard American euphemism for—well, you know. Surely our ancestors didn't say "go to the bathroom" back before indoor plumbing became the norm. So what did they say? "Go to the outhouse," I suppose. Does anyone know for sure?

IN THE HOSPITAL, etc.

I've got to hand it to the Brits for being more consistent than Americans on this point. Americans do say: "in prison," "in jail," "in court," "in school," "in college," "in kindergarten," "in class," "in day care," "in church,"—Quakers even say "in meeting"— but it's always "in the hospital." None of those other institutions requires "the." Why should hospital? It doesn't make any sense.

Consequently, I recommend that, for the sake of consistency, Americans adopt the British practice of saying "in hospital" forthwith!

COLLEGE vs. UNIVERSITY

If I say, "My son is a college student," it tells you nothing about whether the particular institution he attends is called a college or university. It would sound pretentious to say "My son is a university student"—as if you were trying to claim some special status for him because he attends a university rather than a college. Why else would you bother to use a 5-syllable word rather than a 2-syllable one?

Unless you're referring to a particular institution, "college" is usually taken to be a generic term that includes "university" e.g. "college textbook," "college courses," "college teacher," "college math" (or "college-level math").

The only reason to use the term "university" is when you are referring to a particular institution of higher learning that happens to be called a university, not a college. That's why you might say, "I went to the university in 1977" (presuming that your hearer knows which university you are talking about) or "I went to college in 1977" (where the identity of the particular institution is unimportant).

There is no need for Americans to adopt the usage "in university" because we would say "in college" instead anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: The Walrus
Date: 09 May 07 - 09:04 PM

"...I think there are more Brits who understand "bullshit" than Americans who understand "ballocks," and this is probably true about all slang, owing to the fact that Brits see a lot more American-made TV and movies than vice versa.

Is "ballocks" losing ground to "bullshit" in Britain?..."

I would tend to agree with GUEST of 9/V/07 that, in this case "ballocks" is nonesence whilst "bullshit" is deliberate nonsense or an attempt to deceive, however I cannot agree with Jim Dixon (above) in his idea that 'bullshit' is an Americanism popularised by the media.
The British military have been using 'Bullshit' as a derogatory term for the preparation of uniforms and equipment for parades (often seen as pointless by the participants) for decades.
'Bullshit' was sometimes bowdlerised to "Bullshine" but more often abbrieviated to "Bull"
The attitude became applied also to the action and so one would "Bull" boots etc.

My late Father once mentioned a snatch of song from his days as a conscript (early WW2*) with the lines:

"How Green is my Blanco
"How square is my kit,
"That's how we win wars
"With all this bullshit..."


As to the spelling of ballocks/bollocks, I believe either is acceptible, although I favour the former, given its links to balls (testicles) and that there was a dagger hilt design in the medieval period known as the 'ballock dagger' (try looking at: http://www.myarmoury.com/review_ve_ballock.html )


With reference to Azizi's comments about 'bloody', I'm afraid my theory is that Americans simply have no real idea how to swear in English - this could be that, due to the multi-national nature of the origins of the population, they import terms from other languages to do duty for curses, so that they have little or no graduation of swearing in English.
In America, (from limited experience), swearing seems to go from darn to damned to F--k,
In British (and, I suspect other Commonwealth) English there are a number of graduations in between.

It's a little to late at night (2 am) to go into it at the moment.


Walrus


* A pweriod when "Bullshit" would never have been allowed within a mile of appearing on screen, stage or radio**
** There had been some controversery when Shaw had used "Not bloody likely" in 'Pygmalion'.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: The Walrus
Date: 09 May 07 - 09:09 PM

"...The British military have been using 'Bullshit' as a derogatory term for the preparation of uniforms and equipment for parades (often seen as pointless by the participants) for decades...."

this should have read along the lines:

The British military have been using 'Bullshit' as a derogatory term for the preparation of uniforms and equipment for parades (often seen as pointless by the participants) for decades. This 'pointlessness' could be a possible origin for the British use of "bullshit" as 'imposed nonsense' (as opposed to just gobbledegook).

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 May 07 - 09:31 PM

I just remembered going out once in London with an English friend who parked a little too close to the corner. I said, you better watch out, you might get nicked! He then complimented me on my command of British rather than American English... and I had to explain that I hadn't meant he might get caught and ticketed, I thought some other driver might ding his car!

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: GUEST,Scoville at Dad's
Date: 09 May 07 - 10:11 PM

I wonder how "going to the bathroom" came to be the standard American euphemism for�well, you know. Surely our ancestors didn't say "go to the bathroom" back before indoor plumbing became the norm. So what did they say? "Go to the outhouse," I suppose. Does anyone know for sure?

I suspect they simply didn't mention it, at least not in anything resembling polite company. I'm sure they had their own sets of vulgar terms, as we do, that didn't directly refer to the plumbing or lack thereof (like our "powder my nose").

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 May 07 - 11:31 PM

The use of bullshit in the British Army (Walrus) led me to look in my references to see if they had anything interesting in their quotations.
The earliest in Lighter* actually refers to shit, and comes from the West:
1866, in W. H. Jackson "Diaries" 51: It would amuse ...and amaze an Eastern person to hear our first cry when we corrall. It is for fuel and thus spoken- "Bull sh-t, Bull sh-t" in stentorian tones. Since leaving Fort Kearney...we have not been able to secure wood for cooking purposes. The universal substitute...in dry weather is the manure of the oxen...which ignites and burns readily."

1914, Ezra Pound used bullshit in the sense of nonsense.

Reverting to the English military usage, T. E. Lawrence in "The Mint," 1922:" "Wash out all that blarsted bull-shit you've been taught."
Several writers used the term in the 1910-1920 period, including T. S. Eliot, e. e. cummings, Wyndham Lewis (1915).

I would guess that bullshit is 19th c. in both England and America. One of those words that come naturally to mind.

"Going to the bathroom" ="going to commune with nature."

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Marje
Date: 10 May 07 - 05:56 AM

"Going to the bathroom" is (or certainly used to be) standard usage on Scotland, so it doesn't strike me as odd that it is used in the US as well.

Marje

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 10 May 07 - 06:23 AM

I used to be puzzled when my father said he was 'going to see a man about a dog'.

I was brought up to use the term 'lavatory', which, of course, means a place for washing.

As for 'ballocks' - I only guessed the meaning from the context, without which I pronounced it like 'ballast', 'ballet' and 'ballad', and I would have had no idea what you were talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 May 07 - 05:04 PM

Evolution of a phrase:
A few bricks short of a load = conceived in the shallow end of the gene pool (Lawrence Block?).

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Marje
Date: 11 May 07 - 06:51 AM

Re going to the loo: my parents were a bit shocked (this was in Ireland in the 1960s but could have been anywhere)when a male friend said he was "going to shake hands with a friend of the wife's".

Marje

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 May 07 - 01:44 PM

When I was in the US Army, 1953-54-55, the silly, harassing requirements imposed from above were "happy horseshit". "Bullshit" was, as referred to above, either an utterance with intent to deceive or general careless shooting the breeze, probably with a degree of self-glorification.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 11 May 07 - 02:21 PM

Going back to generic terms, until fairly recently American record sleeves (all right, perhaps it wasn't that recently!) used the term 'Fender bass' to describe any kind of bass guitar, be it a Gibson, Ricky or even a Fender. Just because they got there first, i suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 May 07 - 10:24 AM

Doesn't matter much... 100 is 100 in any language!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: Alice
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:43 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Language -American/English
From: meself
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 10:32 PM

Back to university and hospital ....

In Canada, it is usual to "go to university" - if someone says, "I'm going to university [or college] in the fall", this could mean any university (or college), possibly one yet to be ascertained. If you are sick, however, you may have to "go to the hospital", which usually does not mean a specific hospital; it could be any hospital.