BS: Child neglect and the law

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: heric
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:25 PM

If I may ask some questions:
-Did the McCanns have a car on the night of Maddie's disappearance?
-Was it UK sniffer dogs who reacted to the mom?
-When did they do that?
If I read correctly, UK dogs detected scents in a car, leading to DNA finds in a car, which finds had been previously missed by Portugese police. Again, -when were they (UK dogs) there, and -is there only one car at issue in this entire affair?

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:26 PM

I would think it quite likely that that is already being done, sub rosa.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:29 PM

That last post of mine was a response to eanjay's previous one.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: heric
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:13 PM

If all this stuff is so secret secret under Portugese law why do they release just those two dog tidbits in a vacuum. Really a vacuum.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 10:14 PM

I found Kendall's comments very much on point -- no one is condemning these people of actual harm to the child (lthough a few folks have expressed opinions that do not seem totally out of line considering what has been reported ...) but the vast majority - as I read it - do condemn leaving children of that age alone. Like Victor, and like most parents I am sure, we NEVER left our children alone at these ages or anything close to it.........; even though the eldest babysat other people's children and had her Red Cross cert from about the age of 12 we didn'r feel comfortable with her babysitting her siblings because of authority issues. When she babysat other people's kids -- we were a phone call away. That is why empty nesting is so fabulous..............you can taste the freedom when you finally CAN go out and not worry about the ones left at home......

I don't think this statement is 'casting the first stone' -- everyone of us has probably left a child in the car while they raced into the store to get milk or something like that -- but to go so far away from them and in a strange environment for the children......NO! Having said all this my heart bleeds for everyone concerned in this mess....if the parents were involved in any way, their guilt and pain must be agonizing; if they were not involved directly (but I think indirectly has to be a given) their pain and guilt must be agonizing......there are no winners here.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 06:58 AM

everyone of us has probably left a child in the car while they raced into the store to get milk or something like that And children have been kidnapped, and even murdered in just that kind of situation.

Again, how many basically good parents have on occasion travelled in a car with a child on their lap, or not strapped in. How many have smoked cigarettes in the presence of children? Or left something dangerous lying around where a child could have got hold of it?

Parents make mistakes. Sometimes those turn out to be disastrous in their consequences mistakes. Very often when they don't we forget all about them, and even pride ourselves on not having made them as all.

Mistakes made by other people should be a reminder to us to be more careful ourselves, and to encourage other people to be more careful. But they shouldn't be an occasion for finger-pointing and denunciations.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 07:32 AM

"Aplogist" words like "mistakes" and "foolish" don't really apply to this situation.

A professional couple left three children under the age of 4 alone in a strange insecure environment for several nights while they partied with friends despite alternative sitting arrangements that they could easily afford being readily available. At the very least this behaviour was certainly grossly irresponsible and could be defined as neglect.
Their subsequent "explanations" for their behaviour were riddled with inconsistencies and half truths relating to the time they were absent, the number of occasions and the distance from the apartments.

Nevertheless this couple were subsequently "sanctified" by an effcient publicity machine in an overwheming and whipped-up outburst of conspicuous compassion reminiscent of the worst excesses of the Diana phenomenon.

Please read this well written article by rita Panahi linked to be eanjay
Madeleine - where have you gone?

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 07:57 AM

Nevertheless this couple were subsequently "sanctified" by an effcient publicity machine in an overwhelming and whipped-up outburst of conspicuous compassion reminiscent of the worst excesses of the Diana phenomenon.

I've just read the conspicuous compassion link and the first thing I thought about was how when this little girl went missing members of parliament wore yellow ribbons.

I commented on it in one of my earlier posts where I pointed out that people were questioning why they were not doing the same for Alan Johnston who had been kidnapped 9 days later and was still missing at that time.

This is a link well worth reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:00 AM

What's the opposite of "compassion"?

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:36 AM

Compassion is an understanding of the emotional state of another.

I'm sure we can all understand the emotional state of someone who has lost a child or the emotional state of a child who has been abused or neglected or kidnapped or ............ It does not however mean that we have to condone the actions of those who have caused such misery.

Not condoning is not the same as not being compassionate.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:47 AM

I presume that it is being implied that the opposite of compassionate is discompassionate - usually used as a perjorative term.
However it can also be synonymous with "candid" or "neutral" - free from bias, prejeudice or malice or a sincere honest expression.

Buddhist teaching states that "True compassion balances loving-concern with clear wisdom. This wisdom enables us to stay calm and think clearly how best to help, without being carried away by our emotions."

I don't think there is a lack of sympathy or compassion anywhere in this thread for the suffering of the missing child although there may indeed be sincere honest expressions of feelings about the circumstances that brought this about.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 10:37 AM

The usual suspects

The investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance has ominous parallels with the Azaria Chamberlain case

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 11:21 AM

Thanks for the link, Wolfgang. Interesting article. Like most, I have no idea of the parents are guilty of murder, but I do know they should never have left such young children alone.

Even my grandson knows better. We were driving along the other day when we saw two little girls walking home from school. He will be four in November. We have cautioned him to never go anywhere without one of us or his teachers as children are not to be out alone. When he saw those girls, he put his hands over his mouth and said, "I can't believe that!" When I asked him what (I had not seen them right away) he answered, "Those girls are walking all alone. No family!" and motioned with his hands. I praised him greatly as that IS the message we want him to get. I cannot imagine he would be any different if we took him to a motel and tried to leave him in the room alone, esp. at night. He would NOT stand for it.

One wonders about the McCanns parenting skills in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 11:24 AM

"MISPLACED sympathy is a common symptom of those afflicted with bleeding-heart syndrome.
These poor folk will defend the indefensible, make excuses where none exist and generally forgive any behaviour no matter how abhorrent and irresponsible.
They are out in force again, lining up to support Kate and Gerry McCann, who are now considered suspects by the Portuguese police in the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine.
Leading the charge in Australia are those quick to connect the case with that of Lindy Chamberlain, despite the circumstances being world's apart in just about every way."

another Australian viewpoint.....

Madeleine, where have you gone?

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 11:50 AM

"world's apart in just about every way"

How about "the parents reactions from the very first day was cold and non-responsive"...?

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 11:59 AM

What is the idea behind linking for the third time to the same article?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 12:10 PM

I offered an "alternative" Australian viewpoint to that expressed in the article you gave a link to Wolfgang.

I thought that it was protocol in these situations to give the origins of a quote, I have no knowledge whether other people (including yourself) have actually read this article.

Is there some "rule" that information cannot be refreshed?

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 12:11 PM

Refreshed yes, but repeated ad nauseam...?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 03:50 PM

repeated ad nauseam

That does seem to happen a lot on this forum!

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 03:52 PM

Emma, I read the article to which you linked, in your previous posting. Usually just referring to your earlier link is adequate.

I do think we have to be careful not to swing too much of either way: instantly judgemental or compassion without question. I don't know of too many parents who wouldn't feel some empathy with the McCanns, initially, or any other parents who have lost a child, but that doesn't mean we all go off into a self-satisfying demonstration of grief, etc.

It is a painful thing to watch. I wish the media would practise some restraint. It is insane, to me, that the parents are now looking for an even more experienced media handler. I can see involving the press as much as possible to publicise the loss, but not to keep the case on the front page, etc. But, we may never learn that lesson. The media bullshit and the total involvement of complete strangers, brings to mind poor little Elian Gonzales. No, he didn't disappear, but the media and stranger frenzy were as intense.

May her god watch over Madeleine, wherever she is, and bring justice to bear for the highest good of all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 03:56 PM

It is insane, to me, that the parents are now looking for an even more experienced media handler.

I couldn't agree more.

I really wish that the media would focus more on the missing child rather than the parents.

All of this really isn't going to help to find her.

I join you in your last sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: GUEST,Victor
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 04:52 PM

The fact that both Gerry and Kate McCann closed the door of their apartment night after night to go in pursuit of their youth, empting several bottles of wine until the small hours of the morning and leaving three children alone, turns my stomach.

Leaving children of this age for one night makes them irresponsible, their admission of leaving them night after night should result in the twins being removed from their care.

To think there are people on this thread who are actually defending the two McCann's amazes me.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Peace
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 04:58 PM

I don't think anyone is defending their actions in leaving the kids like that. If anyone is, that person is a fuckin' idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Peace
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:33 PM

Pardon the language.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:34 PM

I couldn't have expressed it better myself :)

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:39 PM

It is illegal in Portugal for anyone except the police or court-approved expert to carry out an investigation into a crime. A fund was created to collect donations to pay for the search for Madeleine, but police told the parents it would be illegal to pay for private detectives while their investigation was still active.

I have just copied this from a Timesonline report.

Referring back to my previous suggestion of hiring private detectives to look for Madeleine - this clearly is why that has not been done.

What a shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:45 PM

Nobody is defending them, but I do get the feeling from some posts of an underlying tide of opinion that seems to say.
'What happened to their child served them right, it's their fault the child was taken'
I for one find this sanctimonious undercurrent disgusting.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:58 PM

'What happened to their child served them right, it's their fault the child was taken'

It isn't the child's fault though.

The parents do hold some responsibility.

At the risk of being accused of repeating myself, I will say again that I think the media should either tone it down or focus on the child. The people in Rothley can probably now understand how the residents of Praia da Luz felt with all this frenzy. It can't be easy living with it on your doorstep.

Surely, more can be done to try and find her.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 06:03 PM

Of course they bear some responsibility, but it's a bit of a harsh retribution for doing something that is not uncommon.
The holier than thou attitude, and the hatred of the McCanns that I see in some of the posts in this thread make me want to puke.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 06:07 PM

The holier than thou attitude, and the hatred of the McCanns that I see in some of the posts in this thread make me want to puke.

Those are pretty harsh words from someone so quick to criticise others for what they see as the "same" thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Peace
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 06:11 PM

If they'd been with their kids their kids would now be with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 06:39 PM

I don't think it's really "an underlying tide of opinion", Giok - a few individuals seem to see it that way. Waves, not a tide.

So far, thank God, what we've seen here hasn't quite matched the viciousness of some of the stuff that has posted elsewhere.

"Even the Help Find Madeleine McCann website is now full of disgusting insinuations: "I never believed in your pain", "You have shown nothing but cold emotion ever since 3rd May" , " Kate McCann is either a cold, emotionless woman or there is more going on than meets the eye" and so, appallingly, on. A similar website organised by the McCanns' local newspaper has had to be shut down, after the editors found themselves unable to stem the tide of vicious comments in what was designed to be a sea of comfort". (From this article by Dominic Lawson.)

What makes people like that tick? Perhaps that is something for another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 06:52 PM

I haven't seen any viciousness towards the McCanns here at all. Perhaps some people are being influenced by what they are reading on other forums and feel that they detect those same feelings here. I haven't noticed it myself.

It does seem though that if one has a different opinion to others then they are slated for it.

Perhaps we would all be better to leave the thread before it does get nasty and hope that this ridiculous reporting on the family stops in the near future and we can all be spared any more of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: heric
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 07:15 PM

As Wolfgang's article points out, emotions run high on this one. It hits at people's secret fears (and guilts perhaps.) (No there was no undercurrent to that!) Yeah, the reporting is crap. There is a nice summary today on the BBC site of what few facts have been leaked. (The UK dogs searched "several" cars on July 25 (or so).)

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: heric
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 07:57 PM

(Wolfgang's Guardian article of 12 Sep 07 - 06:19 AM - not the dingo dog stuff.)

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: GUEST,Victor
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 09:11 PM

I doubt this thread will ever turn as nasty as some of the other forums mentioned above.

I think the majority of those on this thread now feel the child wasn't abducted.

Despite our opinions of the McCann's, I doubt any of you expect a third party to be charged with a crime.

That leaves the question, what happened to the child and who was responsible ?

As many of you are aware I am not afraid of expressing my views on this case. I am convinced the mother is guilty of manslaughter (drug induced) and her husband guilty of loyalty to his wife and both acutely aware of the public abhorrence of their actions and the ending of their professional careers.

Really they have so so much to loose by an admission of the events of that fateful day. They either must be confident that no remains will be found, or they have accepted their daughter isn't coming back.

Neither have made a public request for "the abductor" to return the child for months now, nor have they displayed anger at the lack of progress concerning the police search.

I repeat, not one of the other 18 adults on holiday with the McCann's remained in Portugal to comfort them or assist in the search, ALL left the country on their scheduled flights.

Would you leave your friends in that predicament ?

There has been many parallels compared to this case here, none of which I can relate to.

Despite their inability to act as responsible parents, their reactions at the loss of their child looks more like two people more concerned with their own fate.

No I do not feel either parent deserves anguish due to their irresponsibly. I do feel it's time they return to Portugal and tell the police what really happened and if they are concealing the child's remains to disclose this information and allow a dignified burial.

I repeat, this is a discussion forum and people are fully entitled to express their viewpoints without being called names.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: heric
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 10:15 PM

Actually, If I were called upon to put my money down one way or another right now, I think I would bet on no complicity. I wouldn't feel very safe on it, but still, I think I would bet that the Portugese cops were acting in desperation with that last interview of the parents, lacking sufficient evidence in a high profile situation. Just a hunch.

Call me a sick bastard and a ghoul if you will. I don't care. I do third kat's wish: May god watch over Madeleine, wherever she is, and bring justice to bear for the highest good of all concerned.

The friends' departure is somewhat interesting, Victor, but they may all simply be self-centered, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: mg
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 11:36 PM

What I would worry about given several things that have been either reported or suggested, is some sort of vomiting aspiration in a sedated child..another child she was presumably with was said to be vomiting and the parents had left her alone.... I hope that resort and many more get really specific with parents about leaving children untended. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 05:07 AM

"I think the majority of those on this thread now feel the child wasn't abducted."

This is the sort of crap I refer to when I say some of the posts on this thread make me sick!
'I am perfect, I would never do that, I am right, and you all must surely agree with me'
Holier than thou is what I said, and holier than thou is what I meant.
Talk about terminal smugness!
G

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: GUEST,Victor
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 05:29 AM

Really to resort to such nastiness is not becoming of you John.

I had noticed in your earlier posts you felt the parents weren't guilty of a crime. Is it the fact they are both doctors ?
Do I detect a little social snobbery ?

As I said, we are all entitled to our opinions and I clearly stated what I think happened from the facts in front of me.

So John, tell us what you think happened ?

This case is in the public arena and people are allowed to voice their opinions, unless we have to run them past you first ?

Am I perfect ? No.

Have I ever left my kids alone and vulnerable ? Definitely NOT.

Can I find it in my heart to give the parents understanding for leaving three children alone night after night while on a family holiday (probably at home too for all we know) no I can't.

Maybe you can relate to their behaviour John, if so I understand where you are now coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 05:53 AM

O wad some power the giftie gie us, To see oursel's as others see us, ...

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 06:24 AM

It seems that everyone is jumping on the bandwagon - pointing the finger that is.

I've copied this from one of the newspaper reports.

The move comes amid growing anger among those close to the McCanns. They claim police have bungled the inquiry and are now making Madeleine's parents "scapegoats". Today they accused police of failing to fully investigate Mr Murat, the only other formal suspect in the case.
There is a growing belief among the McCanns' friends that police are determined to find the couple guilty at all costs of killing Madeleine.
Close friends of the McCanns remain convinced Mr Murat is still the most likely suspect, although he denies any involvement and the police investigation into him appears to have drawn a blank. Like the McCanns, Mr Murat has been named an arguido - a formal suspect. Sources close to the McCanns insist Mr Murat lied about his whereabouts on 3 May.
Mr O'Brien, Fiona Payne and Rachael Oldfield - all friends of the McCanns - and a Portuguese local have testified they saw Mr Murat helping the search for Madeleine on 3 May.
I cannot believe Murat is no longer being investigated," said a source close to the McCanns, "He is lying about being there on the night. They cannot understand why it hasn't been followed up why Murat lied. Kate and Gerry are being scapegoated.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 06:27 AM

MGofH

Robert Burns - I love his poetry.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 06:40 AM

I repeat, not one of the other 18 adults on holiday with the McCann's remained in Portugal to comfort them or assist in the search, ALL left the country on their scheduled flights. (Victor)

It is easy to google the names of the seven persons who have been with the McCann's on the evening of Madeleine's disappearance and it is also easy to google what they did. The Payne couple stayed with the McCanns in Portugal.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 07:05 AM

another scenario

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 08:34 AM

I'd noticed the same discrepancy as Wolfgang did - like a number of other bits of gossip and rumour boldly presented as facts in the media, and in some instances on this thread, "ALL left the country on their scheduled flights" doesn't actually stand up under closer inspection.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: GUEST,Victor
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 08:40 AM

Nice to see selective media reports out there to suit everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 08:55 AM

I don't know what happened Victor, and neither do you! So it would perhaps be better to curtail your pious postings until you have some knowledge to base them on.
Kevin was right, ghouls; and may I add vultures to the list of suitable epithets.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: GUEST,Victor
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 09:51 AM

Ghouls,Vultures,defenders of irresponsible parents,astute observers and the very naive. Well we're all there then.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 09:54 AM

I don't notice anybody actually defending the parents, just their right not to be attacked and vilified on the basis of what you read in the papers, and see on TV.