BS: Child neglect and the law

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 06:03 PM

Of course they bear some responsibility, but it's a bit of a harsh retribution for doing something that is not uncommon.
The holier than thou attitude, and the hatred of the McCanns that I see in some of the posts in this thread make me want to puke.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:58 PM

'What happened to their child served them right, it's their fault the child was taken'

It isn't the child's fault though.

The parents do hold some responsibility.

At the risk of being accused of repeating myself, I will say again that I think the media should either tone it down or focus on the child. The people in Rothley can probably now understand how the residents of Praia da Luz felt with all this frenzy. It can't be easy living with it on your doorstep.

Surely, more can be done to try and find her.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:45 PM

Nobody is defending them, but I do get the feeling from some posts of an underlying tide of opinion that seems to say.
'What happened to their child served them right, it's their fault the child was taken'
I for one find this sanctimonious undercurrent disgusting.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:39 PM

It is illegal in Portugal for anyone except the police or court-approved expert to carry out an investigation into a crime. A fund was created to collect donations to pay for the search for Madeleine, but police told the parents it would be illegal to pay for private detectives while their investigation was still active.

I have just copied this from a Timesonline report.

Referring back to my previous suggestion of hiring private detectives to look for Madeleine - this clearly is why that has not been done.

What a shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:34 PM

I couldn't have expressed it better myself :)

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Peace
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:33 PM

Pardon the language.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Peace
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 04:58 PM

I don't think anyone is defending their actions in leaving the kids like that. If anyone is, that person is a fuckin' idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: GUEST,Victor
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 04:52 PM

The fact that both Gerry and Kate McCann closed the door of their apartment night after night to go in pursuit of their youth, empting several bottles of wine until the small hours of the morning and leaving three children alone, turns my stomach.

Leaving children of this age for one night makes them irresponsible, their admission of leaving them night after night should result in the twins being removed from their care.

To think there are people on this thread who are actually defending the two McCann's amazes me.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 03:56 PM

It is insane, to me, that the parents are now looking for an even more experienced media handler.

I couldn't agree more.

I really wish that the media would focus more on the missing child rather than the parents.

All of this really isn't going to help to find her.

I join you in your last sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 03:52 PM

Emma, I read the article to which you linked, in your previous posting. Usually just referring to your earlier link is adequate.

I do think we have to be careful not to swing too much of either way: instantly judgemental or compassion without question. I don't know of too many parents who wouldn't feel some empathy with the McCanns, initially, or any other parents who have lost a child, but that doesn't mean we all go off into a self-satisfying demonstration of grief, etc.

It is a painful thing to watch. I wish the media would practise some restraint. It is insane, to me, that the parents are now looking for an even more experienced media handler. I can see involving the press as much as possible to publicise the loss, but not to keep the case on the front page, etc. But, we may never learn that lesson. The media bullshit and the total involvement of complete strangers, brings to mind poor little Elian Gonzales. No, he didn't disappear, but the media and stranger frenzy were as intense.

May her god watch over Madeleine, wherever she is, and bring justice to bear for the highest good of all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 03:50 PM

repeated ad nauseam

That does seem to happen a lot on this forum!

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 12:11 PM

Refreshed yes, but repeated ad nauseam...?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 12:10 PM

I offered an "alternative" Australian viewpoint to that expressed in the article you gave a link to Wolfgang.

I thought that it was protocol in these situations to give the origins of a quote, I have no knowledge whether other people (including yourself) have actually read this article.

Is there some "rule" that information cannot be refreshed?

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 11:59 AM

What is the idea behind linking for the third time to the same article?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 11:50 AM

"world's apart in just about every way"

How about "the parents reactions from the very first day was cold and non-responsive"...?

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 11:24 AM

"MISPLACED sympathy is a common symptom of those afflicted with bleeding-heart syndrome.
These poor folk will defend the indefensible, make excuses where none exist and generally forgive any behaviour no matter how abhorrent and irresponsible.
They are out in force again, lining up to support Kate and Gerry McCann, who are now considered suspects by the Portuguese police in the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine.
Leading the charge in Australia are those quick to connect the case with that of Lindy Chamberlain, despite the circumstances being world's apart in just about every way."

another Australian viewpoint.....

Madeleine, where have you gone?

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 11:21 AM

Thanks for the link, Wolfgang. Interesting article. Like most, I have no idea of the parents are guilty of murder, but I do know they should never have left such young children alone.

Even my grandson knows better. We were driving along the other day when we saw two little girls walking home from school. He will be four in November. We have cautioned him to never go anywhere without one of us or his teachers as children are not to be out alone. When he saw those girls, he put his hands over his mouth and said, "I can't believe that!" When I asked him what (I had not seen them right away) he answered, "Those girls are walking all alone. No family!" and motioned with his hands. I praised him greatly as that IS the message we want him to get. I cannot imagine he would be any different if we took him to a motel and tried to leave him in the room alone, esp. at night. He would NOT stand for it.

One wonders about the McCanns parenting skills in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 10:37 AM

The usual suspects

The investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance has ominous parallels with the Azaria Chamberlain case

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:47 AM

I presume that it is being implied that the opposite of compassionate is discompassionate - usually used as a perjorative term.
However it can also be synonymous with "candid" or "neutral" - free from bias, prejeudice or malice or a sincere honest expression.

Buddhist teaching states that "True compassion balances loving-concern with clear wisdom. This wisdom enables us to stay calm and think clearly how best to help, without being carried away by our emotions."

I don't think there is a lack of sympathy or compassion anywhere in this thread for the suffering of the missing child although there may indeed be sincere honest expressions of feelings about the circumstances that brought this about.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:36 AM

Compassion is an understanding of the emotional state of another.

I'm sure we can all understand the emotional state of someone who has lost a child or the emotional state of a child who has been abused or neglected or kidnapped or ............ It does not however mean that we have to condone the actions of those who have caused such misery.

Not condoning is not the same as not being compassionate.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:00 AM

What's the opposite of "compassion"?

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 07:57 AM

Nevertheless this couple were subsequently "sanctified" by an effcient publicity machine in an overwhelming and whipped-up outburst of conspicuous compassion reminiscent of the worst excesses of the Diana phenomenon.

I've just read the conspicuous compassion link and the first thing I thought about was how when this little girl went missing members of parliament wore yellow ribbons.

I commented on it in one of my earlier posts where I pointed out that people were questioning why they were not doing the same for Alan Johnston who had been kidnapped 9 days later and was still missing at that time.

This is a link well worth reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 07:32 AM

"Aplogist" words like "mistakes" and "foolish" don't really apply to this situation.

A professional couple left three children under the age of 4 alone in a strange insecure environment for several nights while they partied with friends despite alternative sitting arrangements that they could easily afford being readily available. At the very least this behaviour was certainly grossly irresponsible and could be defined as neglect.
Their subsequent "explanations" for their behaviour were riddled with inconsistencies and half truths relating to the time they were absent, the number of occasions and the distance from the apartments.

Nevertheless this couple were subsequently "sanctified" by an effcient publicity machine in an overwheming and whipped-up outburst of conspicuous compassion reminiscent of the worst excesses of the Diana phenomenon.

Please read this well written article by rita Panahi linked to be eanjay
Madeleine - where have you gone?

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 06:58 AM

everyone of us has probably left a child in the car while they raced into the store to get milk or something like that And children have been kidnapped, and even murdered in just that kind of situation.

Again, how many basically good parents have on occasion travelled in a car with a child on their lap, or not strapped in. How many have smoked cigarettes in the presence of children? Or left something dangerous lying around where a child could have got hold of it?

Parents make mistakes. Sometimes those turn out to be disastrous in their consequences mistakes. Very often when they don't we forget all about them, and even pride ourselves on not having made them as all.

Mistakes made by other people should be a reminder to us to be more careful ourselves, and to encourage other people to be more careful. But they shouldn't be an occasion for finger-pointing and denunciations.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 10:14 PM

I found Kendall's comments very much on point -- no one is condemning these people of actual harm to the child (lthough a few folks have expressed opinions that do not seem totally out of line considering what has been reported ...) but the vast majority - as I read it - do condemn leaving children of that age alone. Like Victor, and like most parents I am sure, we NEVER left our children alone at these ages or anything close to it.........; even though the eldest babysat other people's children and had her Red Cross cert from about the age of 12 we didn'r feel comfortable with her babysitting her siblings because of authority issues. When she babysat other people's kids -- we were a phone call away. That is why empty nesting is so fabulous..............you can taste the freedom when you finally CAN go out and not worry about the ones left at home......

I don't think this statement is 'casting the first stone' -- everyone of us has probably left a child in the car while they raced into the store to get milk or something like that -- but to go so far away from them and in a strange environment for the children......NO! Having said all this my heart bleeds for everyone concerned in this mess....if the parents were involved in any way, their guilt and pain must be agonizing; if they were not involved directly (but I think indirectly has to be a given) their pain and guilt must be agonizing......there are no winners here.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: heric
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:13 PM

If all this stuff is so secret secret under Portugese law why do they release just those two dog tidbits in a vacuum. Really a vacuum.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:29 PM

That last post of mine was a response to eanjay's previous one.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:26 PM

I would think it quite likely that that is already being done, sub rosa.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: heric
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:25 PM

If I may ask some questions:
-Did the McCanns have a car on the night of Maddie's disappearance?
-Was it UK sniffer dogs who reacted to the mom?
-When did they do that?
If I read correctly, UK dogs detected scents in a car, leading to DNA finds in a car, which finds had been previously missed by Portugese police. Again, -when were they (UK dogs) there, and -is there only one car at issue in this entire affair?

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:59 PM

I feel that if the fund could pay for some really good private detectives then if the child was found it would put a stop to speculation.

The parents may feel now that that is a good idea and could prove innocence if that is the case.

I do think that in the interests of the child more needs to be done than posters and balloons and there certainly is enough money for more to be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:51 PM

And my point is "GUEST, Victor" is that even if you did turn out to be correct in your speculations, you'd have been wrong to arrive at a judgement and express it in that way in advance of having a lot more information than you have at this point.

Once again, from that article Wolfgang linked to:

... none of us knows. Until we do, basic justice demands that we presume the McCanns are wholly innocent. Common decency demands the same. For if they are eventually found guilty, there will be plenty of time for condemnation. But if they are innocent, to presume otherwise is to commit a second crime against people who have already suffered enough.

Common decency.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:46 PM

Hi Wolfgang,

You are right of course but you know what I meant!

My use of nobody was really no different to the use of words that imply that we are all like a "lynch mob" - not my words, but you'll know that because like me you have clearly read all the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:39 PM

Nobody is suggesting they are guilty of anything other than child neglect (eanjay)

I repeat once again: Susan Smith may have a bearing on this case.
I repeat, One of the McCann's knows what happened that poor child which makes them both guilty of the crime.

Well, eanjay, you state you have read all of the thread. Curious.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: GUEST,Victor
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:26 PM

McGrath of Harlow, we appear to be at odds over this matter, time will prove me right or wrong in my clear opinion that the mother of this child administered a fatal dosage of sedation so they could enjoy the party scene into the small hours of the morning with friends. I remain firm on that since my deleted thread of the 6th of May.

Regarding your remark

"I suppose there are those who would feel that this would entitle them to start pitching stones".

This is only a discussion forum, a place where friends can discuss, debate and express their thoughts and feelings.

Maybe your remark could be pinned to the bottom of the numerous threads on the rights and wrongs of invading Iraq ?
The policies of the British or American governments in regard to health care, smoking in public or hanging Saddam ?

They are all just opinions that's all. As my father used to say " opinions are like anal passages" everybody has one.

By the way, that reference is to myself, not you.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:09 PM

I seriously have wondered if the police "leaking" could have been deliberate to see reactions - they did get a "cracker-type" person in.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:05 PM

"I think you can be absolutely sure of that." But it doesn't appear to have been true in the case of some people in the police in this case or in many others.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:52 PM

And those procedures don't involve us.

I don't think that anybody is suggesting that they do.

It has taken a long time for Social Services to become involved; that is the worrying thing. When that was welcomed there was an immediate "slagging off" of Social Services. There are a lot of ordinary people who work there who do a very good job and it is not fair to make such sweeping statements.

Despite the fact that the parents are desperate to have their child back, they really have hindered this investigation. Perhaps it's just due to distress that they have done some unhelpful things like washing cuddle cat only days after the disappearance, but they do seem to have been able to keep a level head where financial matters are concerned.

I agree with guest,mg. Hopefully an abductor will return the child - although they may feel that they can do a better job of the parenting!

The trouble is that whilst some abducted children do get found or returned, a lot do not. I think that that is why people want something to be done. The child has to be the main consideration. Perhaps now the parents will use the fund money for private detectives in the hope that she will be safely found.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: heric
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:41 PM

People who ask for our money, hire a PR firm and enlist support from Beckham and the Pope are not asking us to leave them to their privacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:40 PM

Kevin, I think you can be absolutely sure of that.

It's one of the main reasons why I support wholeheartedly the recent decision to retain confidentiality in Child Care Proceedings.

I think we've seen far too much press speculation and bias, distortion of facts and undermining of personal lives of investigating officers in the last 4 months.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:34 PM

The same Child Protection procedures will be activated in this case as in that of any other parent in analogous circumstances. And those procedures don't involve us. And I sincerely hope that any Social Workers involved will refuse to gossip or leak about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:28 PM

The word is not "foolish"!
The continual leaving of 3 young children under the age of 4 alone for several nights in a strange environment for no other reason than partying with friends when alternative arrangements were readily available is nothing but "neglect"!

I have nothing but sympathy for any parents who have lost a child, I even have sympathy and understanding for parents driven to infanticide by circumstances which fortunately I've never had to experience; but, I simply cannot accept the "apologists" who think this behaviour is acceptable!

Other people have pointed out that an unsupported mother without this couple's advantages who left her children in this way would have to face the statutory Child Protection proceedure. Like mg I see no reason why these parents, however much their profession is held in deference should be above censure.

I'm also appalled by the whole publicity machine manipulated by the parents which, without any doubt, has made any investigation into whoever is responsible extremely difficult and I fear that "the truth" will never out.

I have read your link Wolfgang and I've also read the posts on the forum which commented on it, many people there share the views that have also been expressed here.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:19 PM

.............. and I have read it all!

Subject: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:18 PM

The thread's not all that dramatic, really.

Agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: heric
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:14 PM

I can't go back and read this huge thread but to my memory, one person thinks that evidence will (eventually) come out to show that at least one of the parents was complicit in harm to Maddie.

One person believes that the designation as suspects should be used as a point of consideration by UK social workers, in addition to the negligence/endangerment by leaving them alone.

Virtually(?) everyone agrees that the evening alone was inappropriate, but disagree as to the severity of the error and the appropriate "consequences."

The thread's not all that dramatic, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:05 PM

There are lots of scenarios, and there are people who have the duty to investigate them and to act on the basis of the evidence they find.

We aren't those people. It';s not our duty ti rush to judgement, and we don't have the facts to enable us to do so responsibly. Clearly the parents acted foolishly in leaving their children alone, and that should be a lesson to all of us. But that's as far as it goes.

The quote "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" comes to mind.

Still, I suppose there are those who would feel that this would entitle them to start pitching stones. Selective memory of the mistakes we have made ourselves is a wonderful thing...

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 02:19 PM

I disagree. I think when the safety of children is concerned, you have to err on the side of their welfare, and you have to soundly be outraged, and express your outrage, at the danger they put those children in..not counting abduction, pedophilia etc..just scalding themselves or getting wedged in furniture...

And you have to go after professionals with the same vigor you would go after a crack mother... no free ride for doctors. You have to be intolerant of these situations and you have to let the world know so that other people don't get the bright idea that they can, as is said to have been done by one of their party, leave a vomiting 3 year old alone...oh but we checked on her...I remember a child in Maine whose mother went out to drink..he was 4 years old, went to look for her in the 10 foot high snowbanks...was found wandering around...

And there are not two scenarios: them totally innocent and them brutal psychopaths. There are all sorts of situations in between that could have occurred. I think the best outcome would be some lonely childless woman took her and thinks she is her daughter and will give her back. That is a chance of about 1 in a million. I think the next best scenario is that there was an accidental overdose and that she died painlessly because some of the other possibilities are too awful to contemplate. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 01:43 PM

Nobody is suggesting they are guilty of anything other than child neglect despite some implications to the contrary.

Nobody? You must have read a different thread.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 01:23 PM

We're allowed to look at the facts as reported though, right?

I'm really glad you've said that because that is all that is being done here. I was about to post something very similar myself.

Nobody is suggesting they are guilty of anything other than child neglect despite some implications to the contrary.

Some of the comparisons used for posters who are concerned are distasteful, but of course that is OK!

Some people forget that intelligent people do ask questions and its only because people have voiced concerns about fund money being used for legal costs that now it will not be.

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: heric
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 01:05 PM

We're allowed to look at the facts as reported though, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Child neglect and the law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 01:00 PM

I'd urge people to read the article to which Wolfgang posted a link - and especially the last paragraph, which seems to me to sum up the situation pretty well:

How will this story end? That's what makes it so grimly compelling: none of us knows. Until we do, basic justice demands that we presume the McCanns are wholly innocent. Common decency demands the same. For if they are eventually found guilty, there will be plenty of time for condemnation. But if they are innocent, to presume otherwise is to commit a second crime against people who have already suffered enough.