BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?

Subject: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:10 AM

Folkies such as Luke Kelly, Ewan Macoll, A.L.Loyd, Dick Gaughan and others were paid up members of the Communist Party. They wanted to turn Ireland and Great Britain into communist countries. They failed. Thank God! We do not live under a totalitarian nightmare that they invisaged.

However, in these post-socialist days, does anyone still call themselves a socialist, or, indeed, a communist? If so, why? Socialism and communisim are totally discredited - or are they? Maybe you think differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:23 AM

First, Communism socialism and totalitarianism are three different things.

Communism won't work because it can not deal with greed. It is human nature to want whatever we have for ourselves, and if possible, what others have.

Russian communism was not communism at all. It was the next thing to slavery.

Socialism is the best of the three, and even America has a certain amount of that. Otherwise, who could afford his own roads, schools and army?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:37 AM

It's beginning to look like Big Bill Haywood was right all along, and that any meaningful labor movement would have to be world wide. This has become more apparent with the growth of multinational corporations.
          That being the case, I'm starting to lean that way.

       WORKERS OF THE WORLD ARISE!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:50 AM

Please give a working definition of socialism, PE. At least for the purposes of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:51 AM

Socialism is far from discredited, and I think it won't be long before we see a resurgence of interest in Marxism as the false promise of consumererism is revealed.

In my opinion (and you know what Clint said about them) the capitalist sytem is on the verge of failing. In the Western world, and increasingly across the rest of the globe citizens are being turned into consumers. We are simply becoming targets to buy more and more junk we don't need - we are bombarded with advertising and are made to pay for everything - the banks refer to us as 'lemons' becuase we're there to be squeezed for profit.

Capitalism fails because the benefits don't filter down to the lower castes of society (although the politicians would have us believe this is the case). The gap betwen rich and poor grows wider at a steady pace, and the underclasses that inhabit cities globally are increasingly disenfranchised from the democratic process as they struggle to keep up with the demads where money is the only passport to freedom.

Capitalism fails to combat climate change, fails to address the gross injustices visited on the third world, especially Africa (remember the vacuous crap the G8 leaders spouted last week - all words, no action). This is mainly because we have no politicians of any integrity left any more - they are all so in the pockets of their various private sector benefaactors that no decision is made that takes into account the interests of citizens over business.

But changes are afoot - there is a growing realisation that to protect the most vulnerable members of society, to make sure we have a planet left for our children and everyone gets a chance to earn a living free of exploitation, we have to change, and socialism and Marxism provide some answers. Heck, even Tony Blair said the 'S' word on the telly the other day.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:57 AM

Seiri Ommar, I wont give a definition of socialism. I allow everyone to interpret the word as they see fit.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,bloke in the corner
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:57 AM

Of course, I am one. In fact I am one the few Thatcherite Socialists around, being both utterly committed to the well being of working class people such as myself, and also recognising that Maggie did so much more for the working class than any Labour government ever did, by making Britain prosperous again. For we all know, don't we, that socialist cant during poverty (eg during the Wilson regimes) does not fill bellies or create happiness. Remember 'the pound in your pocket' remember 27% inflation, remember the dead lying unburied, remember the dreadful Healey going cap in hand to the IMF for 4 billion quid to bail us out?
God bless the great socialist leader Maggie, for she made the country rich, some of which filtered down to us poor ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:03 PM

Socialism "totally discredited"???? Oh, don't be silly. Any well functioning modern society is a harmonious combination of socialism and capitalism. That's normal. To think it's an "either or" proposition and you must choose one or the other is simply downright stupid. They complement each other very effectively. They each do well what the other doesn't do well.

As such, I am both a socialist AND a capitalist, because I am not a fanatic or an absolutist.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:05 PM

I think that a pure communist society (which has very little to do with "Communism" as the countries that have designated themselves as communist up to now have practiced it) would work perfectly, if all the members of the society conducted their lives thinking only of the good of the society as a whole, without any concern for their personal desires. Of course, that isn't going to happen.

I think that a pure capitalist, libertarian, society would work perfectly if all the members of the society conducted their lives thinking only of their own personal self-interest - but their long-term self interest. Of course, that isn't going to happen either.

I think that the two societies that would result in the above two ideal cases would be hard to tell apart.

In the meantime, we need to strike a happy medium (flash of a guy in a robe looking into a crystal ball and giggling, while someone whacks him with a stick).

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:11 PM

As I've said before in this forum, but not recently, when the Soviet Union self-destructed, they jettisoned the baby of Socialism with the wash water of Communism. The ideal would've been to have that revolution in Russia eradicate totalitarianism while keeping aspects of Socialism in place. Socialism is just common sense; providing health-care and a living for all----especially the young, the elderly, and the infirm in a way that has no stigma-very important----and is, indeed, accepted, by all, as a normal and humane way to operate in this so called best of all possible worlds.

This is not to advocate outlawing capitalism. But I think we can keep aspects of socialism that simply make us better people--- and a better society.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:20 PM

Penguin Egg, your lack of a definition means you are operating based on a view of Socialism that is an incorrect generalization. In other words, you don't know what Socialism is, just what you have been fed.

You already have elements of Socialism. Social Security is one. If you are in Canada or the UK you have National Health Care. All social service programs are socialist programs.

Socialism is not discredited. In fact, here in the US, when they finally resolve the health care problem, it will be with a social program. When the powers that be decide to protect the workers ability to make a living, it will be with a social program.

Communism and Socialism are not necessarily the same thing. And Communism as practiced in the Soviet Union was not a good example of anything except totalitarianism. And it failed, as it should have.

I agree with Art. Capitalism has many advantages, but it will be the socialist types of reforms that will fix the ills.

And to answer your question, yes, I consider myself something of a Socialist.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:22 PM

Exactly, Art. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Peter...LMAO!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Grab
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:34 PM

They wanted to make the UK a communist country. Oswald Moseley wanted to make it a fascist country. Thank goodness both sets of extremists failed!

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:36 PM

Canada is somewhat socialist. It works for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM

Never been a communist, never been a socialist, and anyone who would favors totalitarianism shouldn't be allowed to roam about without a nurse. I have always favored capitalism. Oh, sure, I knew there were some inequities, but I believed those advocates of capitalism who claimed that everything would eventually work out (i.e., when the government stopped interfering).

I've grown older and wiser since those days, and I've seen a lot more of the way things actually work. Through reading history and through general observation of the world, I've seen that those main agents of capitalism—businesses and corporations—rum amok like a tribe of robber-barons unless they are held in check by government regulation (which, of course, is why the corporations concentrate greatly on buying politicians with lavish campaign contributions and other bribes—what else can you call it?). Capitalism, it turns out, is institutionalize greed.

And I now have an idea of the way other countries work out their problems, and manage public services:   good, efficient mass transit systems, universal health care, services that show a regard and respect for human dignity, such as taking care of the poor and those elderly who are unable to care for themselves, and a host of other manifestations of simple decency. Believe me, America is not the "shining city on the hill" that's supposed to be an example to the rest of the world.

Communism? No! But if getting this country's socks pulled up and getting it to become one of the civilized countries on this planet takes a dose of socialism, then so be it, say I!

Stigweard has the right of it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:40 PM

Russia doesn't use the "communist" label these days. The KGB has been been renamed. Otherwise a lot of things still seem to go on much the same. Get in the bad books of the State, and you are liable to get liquidated. Try going on strike and you're in real trouble.

And in many of the other former countries which made up the Soviet Union the situation is even worse.

The idea that the Cold War was really anything to do with ideology doesn't really stand up. It was about power.

Totalitarian governments can operate under any type of economic structure.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ythanside
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:52 PM

To suggest that Luke Kelly, Ewan Macoll, A L Lloyd and Dick Gaughan envisaged a totalitarian nightmare is crass, insulting and disingenuous to the nth degree. How do you usually open conversations with acquaintances, by punching them in the mouth?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:54 PM

Well said, Ythanside.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:59 PM

"The idea that the Cold War was really anything to do with ideology doesn't really stand up. It was about power."

             It seems to me it was about religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:11 PM

It was about global warming.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:16 PM

I'm happy to aspire to be a socialist, but I don't think Penguin Egg would understand why, given his/her staggeringly inept first post.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:50 PM

I am one of those Godless, filthy socialist swine... In fact, I would tend to go along with those posters, who effectively say that any sane society must balance socialism and capitalism. In their most fundamental forms, socialism and capitalism are simply the extremes of structuring society to cater for the needs of society as a whole or to protect the rights of the individual. It does not take a genius to see that any society with a future has to achieve a balance between the two.
I personally think that society currently confers too many priveleges on those, who already have wealth and power. That makes me a socialist in most people's book.
We get into the same trap here that we do with the religious debates. There is always a danger of believing that other poeple are going to define themselves by our definitions of particular concepts.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 02:00 PM

In defence of Lenin he was actively opposed to the slaughterhouse that was the First World War.

It is a hard to remember now but the whole of European democracy loudly embraced the War and played the patriot war card.The only parties to oppose it were the Bolsheviks in Russia and the Independent Labour Party together with a very few parties in Holland.

In Germany the home of the largest Labour type party in the world only Karl Liebknecht voted against "war credits" in the German parliament.He was to spend time in prison for his anti war work and was murdered along with Rosa Luxemburg, in 1919.

The anti war position was a hard one to take especially in the first years of the war.In 1916 when an international peace conference was called at Zimmerwald in Switzerland the delegates who attended numbered around 30 including Lenin.

I think he saved the honour of International Socialism and the huge anti war rebellions broke out with the help of left wing agitation in both Russia and Germany within the next two years.Also this anti war atmosphere infected the french and British armies ...the soldiers wanted an end to the war madness and that made Lenin an inspiration to the most political and anti war sections of the working class throughout Europe.

Alistair Hulett has made a great CD about Red Clydeside which is ,in part,about Lenin's ally in Scotland,John McLean.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 02:18 PM

I keep seeing articles that tell how liberalism and socialism have failed and withered away. It does seem like they took a downturn in the 1980's, when Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher ruled the roost, and liberals were being voted out of office all over the world. The Reagan-Thatcher brand of capitalism didn't work very well, either. As has been said above, what seems to work best is a blend of the best of both capitalism and socialism. Now, if we could add integrity and common sense into the blend, we might finally accomplish something.
-Joe, who calls himself a Social Democrat-

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 03:53 PM

Socialism has become a device to render capitalism more user friendly.

The health of the planet requires that we use/waste less of everything, especially organisation.
If the species is to survive we must stop promising an unsustainable standard of living to our people.

As we strive for more of everything, we destroy what is of real value but costs nothing....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:10 PM

"VEN DER DOWNTRODDEN MASSES ARISE,
VEN DER DOWNTRODDEN MASSES ARISE,
VEN DER DOWNTRODDEN MASSES, GET UP OFF DER ASSES,
DEN DER DOWNTRODDEN MASSES ARISE!"
(with many thanks to the late Walt Robertson, with some harmony in the background from several current MC members)! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:19 PM

"The Reagan-Thatcher brand of capitalism didn't work very well,"

         I don't think it became apparent to a lot of people how completely this brand of capitalism did not work until recently. Now that we have hedge funds and holding companies in control of huge gobs of amalgamated capital, and they can simply run all over the world and, in effect, control markets at will, socialism looks a lot more attractive.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Piers
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:23 PM

I am Socialist (I have a card and everything).

Socialism is a system of society based upon the common ownership and democratic control of the means and instruments for producing and distributing wealth by and in the interest of the whole community. This means a moneyless, stateless and classless society.

The terms 'socialism' and 'communism' were used interchangeably by likes of Karl Marx.

Describing capitalism with "worker-friendly reforms" or capitalism with state-ownership as socialism or communism is a massive hindrance to the movement.

Socialism/communism have never been tried so they are not discredited. All around us everyday is the evidence that socialism will be a more successful society. People are not inherently greed, we do not generally take more than we can consume. People can work together, democratically, without leaders and we get things done. People are not lazy, millions of people volunteer to work for free every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:25 PM

Well said, Piers.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,Canadienne
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:28 PM

a little appropiate music

- proud to be a socialist too!

btw - anyone have the lyrics to "As soon as this pub closes the revolution starts"?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:40 PM

I guess I'm closer to being a socialist than anything else...

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:43 PM

To Tony Bliar, socialist is a dirty word. I've always worked under the premise that if Tony says it's good for me then it isn't.

I believe socialism is something to aspire to.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:45 PM

Hear, hear, Rog!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:01 PM

I don't usually comment on PE's posts but here I'll make an exception.
I am not or have ever been either a capitalist or a communist but I will always be proud to call myself a socialist. As a past labour union leader
I have dealt with capitalism at it's highest levels and I believe that it is a necessary force to generate an economy from which we all benefit. However without socialist input and moderation greed would rule and the worker would see little benefit beyond exploitation.
What really puzzles me is right wing religion. It would seem to me that Christ was also a socialist. Be your brothers keeper, cast your bread upon the waters, and that bit about getting the camel through the eye of the needle. No right wing sentiment there!
                            Sandy

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:09 PM

Well said Sandy.

Ewan MacColl also recognised Jesus to be a socialist re:

'The Ballad of The Carpenter'

Jesus was a working man and a hero you will hear
Born in the town of Bethlehem
At the turning of the year, at the turning of the year

When Jesus was a little lad the streets rang with his name
For he argued with the older men
And he put them all to shame, he put them all to shame

He became a wandering journey man, he wandered far and wide
And he noticed how wealth and poverty
Live always side by side, live always side by side

So he said "Come all you working men weavers and fishermen too
If you could only stand as one
This world belongs to you, this world belongs to you."

When the rich men heard what the carpenter had done to the Roman troops they ran
Saying put this rebel Jesus down
He's a menace to God and man, he's a menace to God and man

The commander of the occupying troops just laughed and then he said
"There's a cross to spare on Calvary hill
By the weekend he'll be dead, by the weekend he'll be dead"

But Jesus walked among the poor for the poor were his own kind
And they'd never let them get near enough
To take him from behind, to take him from behind

So they hired one of the traitor's trade and an informer was he
He sold his brother to the butcher men
For a fistful of silver money, for a fistful of silver money

Jesus sat in the prison cell and they beat him and offered him bribes
To desert the cause of his fellow men and
And work for the rich man's tribe, and work for the rich man's tribe

Oh the sweat stood out on Jesus' brow and the blood was in his eyes
As they nailed his body to the Roman cross
And they laughed as they watched him die, they laughed as they watched him die

Two thousand years have passed and gone and many a hero too
But the dream of this poor carpenter
Remains in the hands of you, belongs in the hands of you.

Also recorded by Phil Ochs

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:18 PM

Socialists are not communists and vice versa. true communism is the ideal form of living as delineated in Moore's Utopia.
Socialism is the politics of envy, whereby the people who produce the wealth are despised by those who don't have the talent to do the same, as a result of their productivity they are often penalised by high taxation.
The stated aim of socialism is to raise everybody's living standards to the same level, what it usually ends up doing is lowering everybody's standard of living to the lowest common denominator.
Neither system works as a method of governing a country, mainly because idealism does not translate into workable policies.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ythanside
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:43 PM

Read that in a Murdoch tabloid did you, John, or heard it on Fox News, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:59 PM

"the people who produce the wealth" - that's pretty well all of us together, one way and another.

There's really very little relationship between the value of the contribution we make as individuals and the reward we get for it. There are still people doing the hardest and most useful work and getting some of the lowest wages, for example care workers.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:32 PM

"Socialism is the politics of envy, whereby the people who produce the wealth are despised by those who don't have the talent to do the same, as a result of their productivity they are often penalised by high taxation."
(I find this a rather strange definition, perhaps driven more by dogma than truth)
First of all is it not the worker who "produces the wealth"?
Most workers don't despise their employer, but they demand a fair share of what they produce.
   I'm not sure what taxes have to do with defining socialism except perhaps demanding that the wealthy pay their fair share.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:35 PM

socialism - from Marxs definition was a step toward communism..
(the ideal of communism was when the state 'withered away')

however socialism has come to mean something else, generally
social programs for people - national health plan, pension plan etc..

Capitalism - as it is right now, however leaves out one major component.
that of the external costs, the environment, the commons, nature if you will. And unless a system accounts for third party external costs, then the destruction of the commons will continue..

Ie. dumping pollutants in the atmosphere, or oceans/lakes, overfishing,deforestation. etc.
and its not just a matter of assigning costs..

see Amory Lovins, Natural Capitalism as a proposal

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:57 PM

I'm a socialist slightly to the left of PolPot.

George Moore (not very famous Irish novelist) described Jesus, as 'the pale socialist of Galilee'. Mind you Thatcher thought Jesus was the first monetarist - he's a good one to have on your side!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 09:18 PM

Those who wish to demonize anything are always quite adept at finding some peculiar rationale for doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Bee
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 09:36 PM

I'm more a socialist than anything else. I grouch about the NDP (Canada's most left major party) not being socialist enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Gulliver
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:20 PM

I rarely get into political discussions (hah!) but what was good enough for Brecht, Woody, Brel, Pete Seeger, Luke, Dick Gaughan, Christy Moore and about a thousand other singer/songwriters is good enough for me.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:30 PM

I'm almost afraid to comment as I don't feel I have a good enuogh handle on the various definitiions but I know after years of living in the US, when asked if I would rather live here or in the UK my answer is always, here, if i am rich, and there if I am not. And oddly enough, I wouldn't mind being there, being rich, and paying my fair share of taxes to support them as are not. It is simply ludicrous to expect everyone to have the ability to take care of themselves fully -- not everyone can. Those of us who can should help contribute towards the health and well being of those who can't -- just as they contribute towards the roads we all drive on and our schools all of our kids can attend through their taxes (they just pay less taxes but out of a smaller income -- seems fair to me).

As I understand Socialism, it is just FAIRER......

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 01:10 AM

I'm a post-modern socialist.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:16 AM

'I was an anarcho-syndicalist marxist leninist......'

lyric from one of my autobiographical songs - Trish

http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/trish.mp3

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Piers
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:14 AM

Hello Petr and all -

"socialism - from Marxs definition was a step toward communism.."

This is incorrect - this was Lenin's view, not Marx. Marx did state that where capitalism wasn't developed, such as Russia at his time of writing, there would need to be a higher and lower phase of communism but he nowhere referred to either as socialism or communism. This distinction is irrelevant now as capitalism dominates almost every corner of the world.

Let's define capitalism:

Capitalism. A system of society based on the class monopoly of the means of production and distribution, it has the following six essential characteristics:
- Generalised commodity production, nearly all wealth being produced for sale on a market.
- The investment of capital in production with a view to obtaining a monetary profit.
- The exploitation of wage labour, the source of profit being the unpaid labour of the producers.
- The regulation of production by the market via a competitive struggle for profits.
- The accumulation of capital out of profits, leading to the expansion and development of the forces of production. A single world economy.

To define socialism we need a definition that opposes the essential characteristics of capitalism, otherwise we are defining a form of capitalism.

Thus, welfare-states, nationalised health services, "progressive" taxation, are part of capitalism.

The definition I gave above is the most robust definition because it opposes capitalism, and opposes the contradictions of the various other 'socialisms' that have been proposed. Socialism as a moneyless, stateless, classless society is the only way to have a society where democracy, creativity, ingenuity and humanity can flourish.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:18 AM

No Ythanside, I wouldn't read a Murdoch newspaper or watch his TV channel if you paid me. I very rarely watch TV news, and when I do it is either BBC1 or BBC 24.
I am capable of forming my own opinions, and I would expect you to do unto me as I would unto you, and to respect my point of view.
I don't ask you to agree with it, merely to note that there are other points of view, and all points of view have the same validity!
I expect if you are a 'true socialist' you will now go on strike until I retract my statement!
That last sentence WAS by the way, a wee joke ¦¬]

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:07 AM

"Socialism is the politics of envy, whereby the people who produce the wealth are despised by those who don't have the talent to do the same, as a result of their productivity they are often penalised by high taxation."

Aw heck Giok, whilst I respect your right to hold a (equally valid) personal opinion, I can't let that one slide. This comment betrays a degree of snobbery - the idea the vast majority of people are talentless drones who should allow themselves to be exploited by the bright shining lights of capitalism - deserving victims of their own lack of equality. It implies the only worthwhile work a citizen can do is that which contributes to the free market - so excluding health workers, carers etc.

Socialism represents the politics of justice - a system whereby a society can look after it's weakest members and make sure everyone, irrespective of personal wealth or accident of birth will enjoy basic standards of living and state-administered healthcare without the intervention of free-market economics. It is a fair system that encourages social responsibilty and ensures cohesion within individual communities, whilst retaining the idea of a tolerent, integrated society on a wider level.

The free market simply doesn't supply this. I'm a sole trader (and socialist!), I work bloody hard to contribute to my local economy, pay my taxes without trying to dodge them - this means I probably pay more tax that (for example) Phillip Green, uber-capitialist who lives in this country (as well as Monaco), makes plenty of money from it's citizens yet personally pays possibly less tax than me because his team of expensive accountants use loopholes to ensure he pays as little as possible, and thus he avoids his social responsibility to pay taxes for the benefit of our society.

Consumerism, the social face of capitialism, represents the true politics of envy - creating a marlet where we all aspire to become the thin, rich, perfect mannequins that are lauded as role models by a media that needs to secure advertising to function. Consumerism instills a degree of status anxienty into the populace based on the premise that to success is only measure in material wealth or personal beauty. It attempts to sell us things we don't need by making us insecure about our place in the social order - you're only a success if you have an expensive car, Sky + and a mortgage. You must be thin, of immaculate, ageless appearance or else hey - you're not worth it!

Whilst we need a degree of capitalism to function economically (as much as I'd like the communitst utopia to exist I agree with Giok's assertion that greed is always a factor), letting the free market dictate how the public sector functions is a recipe for disaster. When Thatcher instigated the selling of of the UK's social housing stock she germinated the crisis facing young people and many public (and increasingly private) sector workers today - a lack of affordable housing driving honest working people into potentially disasterous mortgage agreements simply for profit. At best this was a naive and short-sighted policy, at worst it was deliberate exploitation of a shared resource. Either way, it illustrates the failure of capitalism when dealing with public welfare issues.

I suppose it comes down to accountability. Capitalism takes way any degree of social responsibility because it only seeks to benefit those with a vested interest in profit - the shareholders or the board. Unelected, faceless and unknowable individuals pursing their own agendas. Socialism relies on accoutability - with elected representatives of the people administering the system and ensuring the civil service remains in the service of society, working for it's common good - true democaracy working from local to national level for the benefit of all.

And that has to be an ideology worth striving for - because we are ALL worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ythanside
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:22 AM

Well, John, everyone's allowed their point of view, but I have to say I was surprised by the 'socialism is the politics of envy' statement. I have always equated socialism with compassion, fairness and basic human decency, an awareness that the vulnerable need protection from the predatory, and that all of society benefits when we look out for each other. Make money, by all means, but don't allow yourself to become embittered by having to pay the resulting taxes. If you know of a fairer system, do tell us.
Ythanside

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:33 AM

I did say the 'politics' of envy, socialism as a doctrine does not equate with socialism as a political raison d'etre. It is in it's own way as much pie in the sky as real communism.
I mean New Labour calls its self a Socialist party, yet under their benevolent [to some] rule, the rich have just got richer. Our next PM is the man who abolished CGT for instance, and also removed the top rate of income tax.
Sorry but the sight of union leaders driving round in Jaguars, and cemetery workers in Liverpool refusing to bury the dead in order to get an inflation busting 9% pay rise, makes me very cynical about socialism. It appears to be something to which many so called socialists only pay lip service, while lining their pockets at our expense.
Give me an honest crook any day of the week.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:53 AM

Some interesting responces. I, myself, use top be a left wing social democrat - union representatives on the board, redistribution of wealth through progressive taxation, and (don't laugh), the House of Lords to be abolished and to be replaced by the Trades Union Congress. However, let's be frank.... the left has taken an ideological battering in the last 25 years, especially with the collapse of the communist block, from which it is struggling to recover. Socialist ideas have been superceded by single issue causes, ecology, and multi-culturalism. Working class politics is dead in the water. Those who fail to see it, fail to see it because they do not wish to see it. There is none so blind as those who wish to be blind.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:55 AM

As I get older I become more and more distrustful of political ideologies. These are often highly inadequate models of reality which their adherents attempt to force fit to the real world - often with disastrous consequences. The most extreme example is the mass-murder of millions of people by the Nazis and the Soviet Union.

Most recently adherence to particular ideologies has led to the degradation of the environment. To both old-style Soviet Communists and contemporary Free-Market Capitalists the environment was/is irrelevant (not included in the model), resources are infinite and can go on being exploited indefinitely and human populations can go on rising forever. I'm afraid we're on the brink of finding out just how stupid this world-view really is.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:03 AM

It seems that some people are not that happy with my comments on Luke Kelly, Ewan Macoll, A.L.Loyd, Dick Gaughan and others as being paid up members of the Communist Party. Well, they were. They looked, for the most part, to the Soviet Union for inspiration. In the same way we do not allow the Daily Mail (a right wing popular newspaper in Britain) to forget that they supported the Nazis in Germany during the 30s, we should hold these ex-communists to account for their views, as well.

I should mention that I respect the above mentioned as both men and artists, but their politics was just wrong and bad and if their dream had come true, Britain and Ireland would have become Soviet style police states with a secret police, show trials, censorship, and with a complete absence of free speech and democracy. The economy which would have become stagnant and would have made the late 70s look like an economic powerhouse on a par with Japan, by comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ythanside
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:27 AM

'We should hold these ex-communists to account for their views'
Does that law include 'ex-left-wing social democrats' like yourself, or does apostasy rule OK in your own case only?
Peguin Egg, your postings don't do your views any favours; you just come across as half boiled.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:04 AM

50% of any particular one of these?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Dewey
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:37 AM

Social Workers.

Those one-sided, judgemental, meddling, screw with your life all day long to get the one thing that THEY want regardless of the price, inconvenience, hardship and abuse it may cause the recipient.

My parents have (for insurance processing reasons) now been temporarily forced to kiss their governmental autocratic rear-ends, to receive financial assistance with medical related issues and home care.

These are meddling "WE" vs. "YOU" bastards, They solve one problem for the victim they profess to "help", and create twenty more issues in that person's life.

One must be their slave and pupit to fulfil their exclusive one-sided, "we don't need your input" dictatorial agendas. Just jump for "US" and kiss our rear-end, then WE will give you whatever it is "WE" decide "YOU" deserve.

If people in the U.S. think they are free. Simply run out of health insurance and be introduced to one of these bastards. Social workers will keep a citizen alive, but will not begin to respect one's independence and or self-abilities. One becomes a piece of meat and a problem to be reckoned with for the sake of the community and the greater whole of the government itself.

If I ever had to deal with one of these social workers myself due to old age and/or any other unfortunate disadvantage, I'd sooner take Jimmie Rodgers advice and:

"Drink muddy water, and sleep in a hollow log"

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Dewey
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:42 AM

Just had to say that! But don't wish to waste anymore time at MC. Not looking for any discussions here. thank you for NOT responding.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:54 AM

OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 10:12 AM

"I should mention that I respect the above mentioned as both men and artists, but their politics was just wrong and bad and if their dream had come true, Britain and Ireland would have become Soviet style police states with a secret police, show trials, censorship, and with a complete absence of free speech and democracy"

You're confusing totalitarianism with communism - supposed communist states don't have the monopoly on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:35 AM

I think the bit of Penguin Egg's omelette that got up people's noise was "We do not live under a totalitarian nightmare that they envisaged."

There is no justification for the suggestion that the people mentioned envisaged (or in the case of Dick Gaughan, envisage) any kind of "totalitarian nightmare". People across the Atlantic sometimes refer to Britain's "socialised medicine" with shock and horror. That's much the same fallacy as Penguin Eggs falls into.

The kind of "communist society" envisaged by the aforementioned was one been very much akin to the National Health Service - less than perfect, a bit over-bureaucratised, but basically pretty fair, and in a lot of ways far better than most of the alternatives on offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:40 AM

"If people in the U.S. think they are free..."

Dewey...nobody in any modern state is free. Not anywhere. We are all under the hand of some Big Brother. We all put up with many unpleasant restrictions on our freedom. The only thing you are absolutely free to do is think your own thoughts, because no one else knows what they are! (unless you offer to openly tell them...if so, be prepared for some more attacks on your freedom)

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Piers
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:54 AM

Stigweard, your earlier analysis of capitalism is spot on. I see no reason, however, why democratic control shouldn't improve the production and distribution of goods and services over the present system.

Instead of production for profit we could have production to meets actual human needs, rather than the effective demand of the market system. This system renders a large portion of the world without basic needs of food, clothes, shelter and medical care. The fundamental priority for production in capitalism is profit and this is why attempts to tame capitalism fail to cure the fundamental problems in society, such as the ones you describe and a whole lot more.

Greed is not a factor, it is a behaviour and like aspiring to become the thin, rich, perfect mannequins, it is mainly determined by social experience. In a society of apparent shortage (but potential plenty) it is no wonder people grab as much as they can given the opportunity. One could equally say that people are not greedy enough in capitalism, why do we let bosses profit so much from our labour?

With democratically-controlled production and free access to goods and services society would be in a position to consider the non-market costs of production, such as pollution, and take action. The current system of production means there are vested interests keeping the costs 'externalised', i.e. not paying for them. Hence the resistance from the most capitalists to environmental regulations that can damage their profits.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:02 PM

I can't imagine Luke Kelly as a member of the Communist Party. He did stay with an Irish teacher, Sean Mulready, in Birmingham, who became a member of the Communist Party (though he later resigned). Many of Mulready's relatives and friends were musicians or married to musicians and there was quite a connection between left-wingers and musicians in those days, also back in Dublin where musos, lefties, radicals, etc., would hang around the same drinking holes--Donoghue's, McDaids, Grogans, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:10 PM

The Star Club (The Communist Club) in the 1970's on the Ringway in Brum had a folk club attached with very tradddy outlook and lots of Irish guys used to hang out there. Mick Hikpkess of drowsy Maggie - the late Dave Philips - Tommy Dempsey and of course the late Aiden Ford and his brother.

Ian Campbell (another Brummy folksinger) had been a communist party member and he told me that MI5 or someone similar used to tap his phone.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:44 PM

I dont think many people realise the high esteem the Revolution, led by Lenin and the Bolsheviks , had among many sections of working class people across the world in the months and years following 1917.
It was the Bolsheviks who had opposed the slaughter of the trenches while the social democratic and right wing parties had supported the warand the slaughter.
It was the Bolshevik Party which had overthrown the rotten and corrupt ruling class of Russia which had wanted to continue to send millions of Russians to the front often without arms or weapons or even boots.
It was the Bolsheviks who had defended the Revolution against the invading armies of the West in the months and years following 1917.
It was the Bolsheviks who appered for a brief period to offer fundamental change to millions of ordinary and poor people world wide.

This is why millions across the world including many cultural and artistic people supported the Revolution to a greater or lesser extent.
The Revolution was choked and eventually strangled by Stalin as it failed to spread to the West....Stalin was to kill or imprison all the leaders of 1917 including the great champion of the Revolution ..Trotsky.
Many of the cultural figures were supporters of the official communist line but failed to recognise that the Revolution had been replaced by a form of counter revolution by the late 1920s....and Trotsky's fight against Stalin was a lonely and unequal one right up to his assassination in 1940.
A lotta continua!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:50 PM

The ease with which leading figures in the Soviet system managed to turn overnight into rapacious oligarchic capitalists is a fair indication of the shallowness of the system's "socialism".

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:54 PM

They all looked good in a cap.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:57 PM

My mother-in-law's parents were among the countless number of innocent people slaughtered by the Bolsheviks for the crime of owning a flour mill.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 01:14 PM

I think most left-of-center folks have flirted with communism at one time or other. The Manifesto--which I'd opine most people have never read--is a wonderful document. However, when we look at countries like North Korea and China we certainly see places that haven't read it either. Most folks have severed their ties with communism because it became a corrupt system as demonstrated so clearly in "Animal Farm". But then the difference between the dream and the reality after some years is a great chasm. We see it in democracies (I know, it's a republic in the US and a parliamentary democracy in Canada, etc) too. Many Americans on this forum have expressed concern for the Constitution, and many feel disenfranchised. Here.

From the above link:

"PURE COMMUNISM
(Communalism)
You have two cows.
Your neighbors help you take care of them, and you all share the milk.
   
THEORETICAL
COMMUNISM
You have two cows.
The government takes both and gives you the milk.
   
APPLIED
COMMUNISM
You have two cows.
You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk.
You wait in line for hours to get it. It is expensive and sour.
   
CAMBODIAN
COMMUNISM
You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you."

The site has cogent remarks about democracy, too.

" PURE
DEMOCRACY
You have two cows. Your neighbors vote to decide who gets the milk.
   
REPRESENTATIVE
DEMOCRACY
You have two cows.
Your neighbors vote for someone to tell you who gets the milk.
   
AMERICAN
DEMOCRACY
The government promises to give you two cows if you vote for it.
After the election, the president is impeached for speculating in cow futures.
The press dubs the affair "Cowgate".
   
BRITISH
DEMOCRACY
You have two cows.
You feed them sheep brains and they go mad. The government doesn't do anything."

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 01:18 PM

I'd like to answer McGrath of Harlow.
The infant Soviet Republic had to cope first of all with the ravages of the War which had led to 20 million war dead and the ruination of the economy.
Secondly was the right wing "White armies which were deeply anti semitic and determined to wipe out the Revolution ..and indeed they tried their best.Their leaders were intent on revenge and retribution on a draconian scale and if they had succeeded the word for fascism would have been a Russian one.
Thirdly there were something like 13 foreign armies and navies including the Us and Uk military which invaded the Soviet Union to strangle it at birth.
The result was a collapse of the Russian economy,starvation and a collapse in living standards.
The Bolshevik Party itself was decimated of its older members who were killed in the civil war and the influx of new members often contained large numbers of opportunists and chancers.The Russian working class almost ceased to exist asa class as workers were forced to look for food in the countryside and workers were pitted against peasants etc
Lenin himself who had been shot and gravely wounded was to warn from his sick bed about the danger posed by Stalin but it was the failure of the German Revolution between 1919 and 11923 which was to lead to the return of Russian chauvinism and the scandal of Stalinism.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:26 PM

Actually Peace, the British Government didn't quite do nothing, they persuaded a former Agriculture to feed his young daughter a hamburger in front of the TV cameras to demonstrate how safe it was.
She's going to be really pissed off with him if she develops Human CJD.   See below

Independent ... Tuesday 8 December 1998

The former minister who fed his six-year-old daughter a hamburger to promote a government line that "beef is safe" expressed no regret yesterday, saying that he was not then aware of any health risks from eating cattle offal.

John Gummer, who held office at the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Maff) from September 1985 to May 1993 - including a promotion in 1989 - told the BSE inquiry yesterday that in 1990 he had not heard any scientific evidence to back a ban on offal such as the spinal cord and gut. "In matters as important as these it is essential to have a personal benchmark to be applied to decisions wherever appropriate. In such circumstances I applied the test, 'Would I be entirely happy for my children to eat this?'" Mr Gummer said.

So in 1990 he posed for photographers at an agricultural fair, pressing a hot burger on his daughter Cordelia.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:34 PM

Should have read 'Agricuture minister.....'

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:34 PM

"Under capitalism, men exploit other men. Under communism, it's just the reverse."

I see why socialism seems sensible and fair, but I do not believe for a moment that it could be made to work on any large scale.
In order to monitor and administer such things as the distribution of good & services, someone would have to BE the monitors, and greed & corruption would sneak in....and even more so in police functions. "Your fair share is bigger/better/prettier/tastier than my fair share."

I suspect that the only truly workable society for everyone would be some version of BENEVOLENT DESPOTISM, and I can't imagine how to set one up.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:37 PM

and of course in 1990 he wasn't former was he? Brain's going I fear, hope it's not those hamburgers..........

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:37 PM

Easily done, Bill. Just put me and my dog in charge of everything. ;-) I make the decisions, he handles security.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Piers
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:28 PM

It is really very simple to adjust actual supply to actual demand. You follow the amount of goods and services utilised and compare it the amount of goods and services produced.

If there isn't enough of a product you find a way to deal with the shortage and communicate back to the producers to up production if at all possible.

There will be no room for corruption because it will be organized democratically, i.e. open and accountable, everyone with equal say. In society without private property there will no advantage in accumulating goods, because they are available free to everyone.

There will be no need for cops because most crime is private property related, the rest we could deal with ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ythanside
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:03 PM

Weelittledrummer, had a laugh at 'Ian Campbell(another Brummy folk singer)'.
Next time I'm having a pint with him I'll mention that. His answer's sure to be unprintable. :-D
No offence to Brummies; I've known many, one so well that we've been married for thirty-odd years.
(BTW, the best Brummy folksinger I've ever heard was Bill Alldrick.)
Ythanside

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:08 PM

"In society without private property there will no advantage in accumulating goods, because they are available free to everyone."


                  Yeah, but it only takes one Rupert Murdoch, or one Ronald Reagan to screw everything up.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:16 PM

"...it will be organized democratically, i.e. open and accountable,..."

there's a lot of 'what ifs' embedded in that "will be"...

Call me a pessimist, but I see **ANY** accounting/managing system as corruptable. Except in small societal groups, where everyone can see most of the 'goods', diverting of them will likely be rampant.

In today's global economy, there are just too many variables to monitor.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:33 PM

I hate Capitalism more than anything else. It is a virulent disease to which we have developed a certain amount of immunity.
We don't see or care about the long term effect.
I was subjected in my early working life, to almost Dickensian conditions. It was Capitalism in the raw, my fellow apprentices and I were obliged to travel up to forty miles on an open lorry with no shelter even in frost and snow.

The driver stopped every twenty minutes to allow us to "thaw out".
The Boss paid off workers at regular intervals ..."To keep the rest on their toes", and unemployment in those days meant real hunger.

Before long I developed an interest in folk music, especially Woody Guthry, Pete Seeger and Leadbelly. I found I could relate to what they sang about, shared their rage at the injustice of it all.
At 17 I found a communist Party magazine called "Challenge" which had been discarded, filled in the enrollment form it contained, Sent it off to King Street and became a member of the Young Communist League.

If it had become known that I was a "Communist" I would certainly have been dismissed from my job and through the Masonic grapevine I would have been blacklisted in every building firm in the area.

The Communist ideal has coloured my life, how I've lived it and how I've treated my brothers and sisters, but as I near the end of my life I begin to realise that Socialists/Communists ignore something of great importance....Personal freedom.

Not the freedom to manipulate others in our search for wealth and power as the Capitalists do, creating markets where none exist or are required. Turning people into money making machines, and the worst thing of all, encouraging them to accept the condition...even welcome it.

But the freedom to enjoy the human feelings which we all have deep within us.
Time to enjoy the beauty around us. Time to use our minds in discussion, the satisfaction of sharing ideas.
The opportunity for women to bear and nurture children and see them grow into adults healthy in mind and body, not the parodies of today whose lives are ruled by the urge to succeed or the losers prize, drug addiction.

It seems to me that we have gone just that little bit too far down the Capitalist road to stage a recovery and that we need some great disaster either natural or more likely engineered by humanity to turn the clock back a few thousand years.

All the left "isms" depend on our willingness to sacrifice our one chance of life on this beautiful planet to the common good in some idealised never never land.

IMO humanity can only gain happiness and personal freedom in so called primitive societies where money and power are not factors in how life is lived.

Think small...organise less...you have everything you need...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:45 PM

The more I internalize this thread and the poverty thread the more I want to sing

Oh, you playboys and playgirls
Ain't a-gonna run my world,
Ain't a-gonna run my world,
Ain't a-gonna run my world.
You playboys and playgirls
Ain't a-gonna run my world,
Not now or no other time.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:53 PM

"Think small...organise less...you have everything you need...Ake"

Brilliant, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:57 PM

Thanks Bruce...You're "the man"

I've got "writers cramp"

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 06:03 AM

"You're confusing totalitarianism with communism - supposed communist states don't have the monopoly on that." - stigweard.

True, but communist societes were (are)totalitarian.

'We should hold these ex-communists to account for their views'
Does that law include 'ex-left-wing social democrats' like yourself.." - ythanside.

Yes, but then I admit I was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 07:35 AM

Give my regards to Ian. I had a stack of respect for him. He did live in Birmingham. His kids went to Manor Park Infants where my wife taught.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,Gern (apparently demoted to GUEST)
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:49 AM

Yes we're still out here, and we're taking names.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: MMario
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:53 AM

gern - just login again.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 03:23 PM

...by clicking on "Membership" up the top of the screen and following instructions.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:45 PM

Fidel is still a socialist/communist. So are many other Cubans. I met them in person back in 2000 (not Fidel...various ordinary Cuban citizens), and among them were some of the most admirable, honorable, and capable people I have ever met in my entire life.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:52 PM

Well.."socialist/communist" is defined and practiced in different ways in different parts of the world. Political theory is fine, but pragmatism causes governments to pick and choose among tenets, and citizens to pick & choose among responses.

I have no doubt, Little Hawk, that "socialist/communists" can be as nice as anyone else....within the system....it's when they are confronted with OTHER systems that it gets interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 08:29 PM

For sure, Bill. ;-) Among the Cubans I met there were some who were quite critical of the system down there and others who were quite supportive of it. But like people anywhere, they all enjoyed complaining a certain amount about the stupidity and inflexibility of government bureaucracy and red tape.

As for being confronted with other systems...well, I was confronted with their system and there were some things I really liked about it...there were other aspects which I like better in Canada. It was a mixed picture, not a "good vs evil" dichotomy, which is what political propagandists (whose business is war) all would like you to believe.

One of the smartest people I met down there was Mr Freddy Gonzales, the mission's translator. Freddy has now made 2 trips to Canada to visit his friends here. He enjoyed it, but it did not result in his "conversion" to our way of life. He did not react by wishing to flee the supposed horrors of Communist Cuba. Nope. He is proud of Cuba, and he has no desire to move to Canada where he could readily enjoy a much more affluent lifestyle. Why? Because he loves Cuba and he believes in Cuba.

He's a patriot. Such people are good to see, in any country. As a Canadian, that's how I feel about Canada. I'm glad that's how he feels about Cuba, and I understand why.

It doesn't matter whether a country is socialist, capitalist...or like the vast majority, a mixture of the two. It is not the determinant of moral right and wrong. Both socialism and capitalism can be used well...or abused. Both are capable of going astray. Bad leadership can ruin any system.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Piers
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:10 AM

In Cuba, wealth production is based on capital and wage labour. Most of the citizens have only their labour to sell as a commodity while a minority control the means of production. In Cuba, they have all the essential requirements of capitalism. Workers are exploited in Cuba, just as we are in the UK. Cuba is a hierarchical society just like the UK. They have money, banks, secret police, just like 'the West'. It is a capitalist society. Workers go on strike in Cuba, there are prostitutes in Cuba, there are thieves in Cuba.

Socialism/communism, is social/common ownership, as in possession, as in control and thus democratic, not in the capitalist sense of electing leaders but in the sense of everybody participating in running their workplaces, their community and their lives.

Fidel Castro can call himself a communist, he can call himself Marilyn Monroe, but it doesn't make it true. Once you pick up gun, once you set yourself outside the rest of the working class as a vanguard to bring about the revolution on behalf of others, once you call yourself a leader, then you have stepped outside the socialist/communist tradition.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 06:29 AM

"I don't usually comment on PE's posts but here I'll make an exception." - Sandy McLean.

To divert from the thread's subject, why don't you usually comment on my posts?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:02 PM

Interesting analyis, Piers. I don't know if Castro is really a communist or not, but I doubt he ever would have been called one, had his revolution in 1959 not thrown out the various American big business and Mafia holdings from Cuba. When you did that in those days, you were immediately labelled "a communist" by the American national media. That's how it worked. Whatever Castro truly was didn't matter. He was officially a communist from then on, and communists are in league with the devil, don't you know? ;-) They are the enemies of all that is decent, sane, and godly. They are not really even human. They must be exterminated, every last one of them, in order to make the world safe for....---------------(fill in the blank with your favorite fantasy word).

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:21 PM

religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:53 PM

multi-nationals.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:29 PM

I've always rather liked - and found quite credible - the anecdote about the leaders of the Cuban Revolution getting together for at the first planning meeting after the fighting is done, and Fidel says "Is anyone here an economist?" and Che is pretty bushed and half asleep, and he thinks Fidel said "Is anyone here a communist?", and he sticks his hand up.

So Fidel gives him the job of getting the economy running right, and that's how the Cuban Revolution moved to the left.

But the thing that really drove Cuba into relying on the Russians was, of course, the way the USA pushed it away and set out trying to undermine the new government. And has kept on doing that for the last half century.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:42 PM

Correct. The USA kicked Cuba into the arms of Russia, because they were mad at Castro for kicking out the big US-owned companies. Castro worked with the Russians because he had to, simply to survive.

100!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:03 PM

"ENLIGHTENED SELF INTEREST!"

My boss wants me to work for a certain number of hours per day. If my shift is eight hours, he feels entitled to expect eight hours work. He is prepared to pay me money to acquire my labour for said shift.

I want money to buy food, accommodation, and perhaps a few luxuries. To that end I am prepared to commit eight hours to supplying the required labour.

I want to earn the maximum possible hourly rate, and my boss would ideally like to pay as little as possible.

Negotiation seems to be required, and after deep and meaningful discussion, we are able to come to an agreement which is satisfactory to both. I don't insist upon a wage which will cripple his finances, and he doesn't insist upon a wage which will starve me and my family.

As has been said above, some such restraint is essential, and the result I have stated is the only way in which capital and labour can both survive in the long term.

Add to the mix, tax levies on both my wages and his profits, which will be used to fund essential services, and you have Capitalism and Socialism co-existing in a workable way.

Where this all goes wrong, IMO, is in the fact that there is always envy concerning the differences in pay engendered by rank. The labourers want to have the same pay as tradesmen, and the tradesmen want the same as middle management etc. etc., and the shareholders always want a larger share of the cake.

Somewhere in the middle of all this is a solution everybody COULD live with, if only they would consider long term self interest, but of course they never will, which is why the UK auto industry was destroyed by stupid union leaders striking for 40% pay hikes in the sixties, and also why it took minimum wage legislation to alleviate the plight of the lowest paid, criminally exploited, UK workers.

The recent history of my country is loaded with instances of workers generating huge (obscenely so in many cases) profits for cpmpanies that pay peanuts, and also of companies declining and failing because of workers skiving for two thirds of their supposed working hours.

Capital abd labour cannot survive without each other. In reality there is no "US" and "THEM", only "US", but how long, do you suppose, will it be before they finally decide to work together?

I've been a Conservative (large C UK Tory) all my working life, but I also consider myself a socialist (small s), having paid my share to help those less fortunate.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 08:38 PM

The problem is you need to appeal to a person's self-interest. Capitalism does this. Socialism doesn't--except if you are willing to think about your long-term self- interest--which, in general, people aren't. It's no accident that all the most prosperous states (GDP etc)are capitalist. Including Canada, the UK, and the Scandanavian countries. But these have large socialist elements--which are desperately needed to temper capitalism.

The pendulum in the US has to swing back soon from the Bushite love affair with capitalism--that is, self-interest as the solution to everything--to a larger socialist element--especially in health care. The Bushites even think that the only health care reform worth having is to give people "health savings accounts"--since they will in theory be more frugal if it's their money. They seem to think that people "choose" to go see a doctor. As if people want to do that. I'm not doing anything else this afternoon--I think I'll go see my lung specialist. Right.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 09:26 AM

It seems to me that self-interest is an essential aspect of socialism every bit as much as it is of capitalism.

I want a decent health service which provides good medical care when I need it and which doesn't charge me money to use it. I want public transport which is reliable and comfortable and inexpensive. I want to have the protection of a trades union and have a job where I have some control over my working environment and on what I do every day.

That is all about self interest, short-term as well as long-term, and it seems to me that I am more likely to get those needs satisfied in a socialist context than in one which is built round private profit.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 10:38 AM

Ah, but Kevin, I would submit that the UK is a capitalist society with socialist elements, rather than a socialist society with capitalist elements. And that you are better off having it so. True?

What changes towards socialism would you like to see in the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 11:07 AM

Since they sold off our local bus service to a mess of different companies it's got significantly worse in all kind of ways. The same happened with the trains.

That's just an example. I could give more.

The underlying assumption that has especially underpinned policy over the past decades in the UK has been that you just can't get efficiency and imagination within a public enterprise, and that in a private enterprise you are somehow guaranteed to get that stuff. And I think that is just lazy thinking.

Any system in which sizeable resources are diverted from the business itself, including the people working in it, and from the users, and abstracted by outsiders and onlookers, is in my view essentially defective. The aim should be to find ways to avoid the while at the same time preserving the useful techniques that can be associated with that system - initiative and enterprise and so forth.

The form of socialism I would like to see would be based primarily on workers and users cooperatives, ranging from tiny and local to regional, national or even supranational, rather than on the top-down monopolist state socialist model, which was cobbled together essentially as a way of preserving the management structure of the private business of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 12:16 PM

DonW
It's very easy to blame the trade unions for the demise of the British Car industry, and of course the British gutter press will lead the way. I'm afraid management sounded the death nell for the British Car industry long before the trade unions got in on the act. Lack of investment for product development, outdated models, cobbled together cars using outdated technology, trading on what had been respected marques like Morris, Austin, Triumph etc. by fixing badges to rubbish and expecting to fool joe public. Remember cars like Allegro, Ital, Marina, Montego etc.
of course, unlike the workers, who will have paid the price of their livlihoods, management will have walked away with big bonuses, golden handshakes and peerages.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 12:42 PM

It seems that even if they sell the bus service off, they could still oversee the service and require a certain standard.

Also, would you abolish the City? Do you not think that having London as the financial capital of the world helps the UK economy?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 12:54 PM

I would certainly agree that public transport should be controlled by the public. If you call that socialism, then it's definitely an aspect of life which should be socialistic. In the DC area, the Metro--which is not a private firm-- at least at this point, seems to work fairly well. Though there are frequent problems--fare increases, plans to bring in new cars with fewer seats, breakdowns, etc.    (And the bus service is a poor stepchild.) It's still a hell of lot better than driving to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 12:56 PM

The rest of the world has by definition to get by without being "the financial capital of the world", and that includes places which manage pretty well.

That's fortunate because it seems highly unlikely that this status - "financial capital of the world" - will stay with London for all that long. The world doesn't work that way.

If the City were to be lifted up by some Arabian Nights Genie and taken to the other side of the world and deposited there I think we could manage pretty well.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:03 PM

Communism was destined for failure. Those uniforms are just so drab.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:14 PM

I have a theoretical question.

A railroad is to be built from A to B.

The land is flat except for the mountain between A and B.

Do you tunnel through the mountain or go around it?

That will separate the capitalists from the communists!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:22 PM

Kevin-

The City--and the UK's financial clout--including the strength of the pound--helps the UK living standard. Do you not think that benefits you? I suspect that if the City were transferred tomorrow to Abu Dhabi, it would affect you--negatively.   Why is this not so?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:47 PM

"The underlying assumption that has especially underpinned policy over the past decades in the UK has been that you just can't get efficiency and imagination within a public enterprise, and that in a private enterprise you are somehow guaranteed to get that stuff. And I think that is just lazy thinking."

"I'm afraid management sounded the death nell for the British Car industry long before the trade unions got in on the act. Lack of investment for product development, outdated models, cobbled together cars using outdated technology..."

Wise words from McGrath of Harlow and Rog Peek. It's a wonder to me that any private company keeps running. Far too many of them seem to be run by egotistical shits who are unimaginative, unaccountable for their mistakes and have complete contempt for their customers (let alone their workers!). The senior management of a company that I worked for, until recently, were always bleating on about "innovation", yet when you looked at the products that actually got to market 99.9% of them were just copies of other company's products ('mee-toos'). When R&D did actually come up with a truly innovative product senior management/marketing didn't know how to sell it!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:57 PM

if the City were transferred tomorrow to Abu Dhabi That, or something similar, will undoubtedly happen sooner or later. And as I said, the rest of the world gets by without being "the financial capital of the world", and when it happens, so will we.

................
There might be three reasons to tunnel through the gnu's mountain. One would because it would cost less because there's something stopping you go by the flat route - that might be some private landowner, it might be some kind of political frontier, or local inhabitants who were strongly enough opposed to the route. Or while flat the terrain might be unsuitable in some other way - impassible marshes maybe.

A second reason would be that the tunnel was seen as some kind of prestige project by the people in charge.

A third would be that building the tunnel would be seen as some kind of make-work solution to unemployment, or something of that kind.

Any of those three situations could arise in either a socialist or a capitalist system.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 03:13 PM

Nope.... she's flat as a pancake and as hard as the rock in the mountain and there are no people living anywhere except in A and B. No evironmental concerns, no NOTHING. Just you and the mountain.

Read nothing beyond the post above. Don't introduce any other variables or questions. Just answer the question... and supply the reasoning, of course. I didn't ask that, but it is kinda the reason for asking the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 03:24 PM

BTW... sorry if I seem to be silly or arrogant or whatever by asking this. It was a question on a Master's Degree exam in Transportaion Engineering that I took. It was a question specifically designed to denote the difference between the capitalist and communist systems of economic analyses and how they are linked to the "battle" between engineering design and politics.

Much like my blurbs on the New Orleans thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 03:33 PM

Variables make all the difference. You can't disregard them. They would determine, for example, whether there was more profit to be made in tunnelling, in which case that's the option the private company would be likely to take, even though it involved a waste of the community's resources.

A genuinely communist society would go round, but a society labelling itself communist or socialist might still choose the wasteful option, for all kinds of dubious reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 03:35 PM

"Somewhere in the middle of all this is a solution everybody COULD live with, if only they would consider long term self interest," (Don)

There is no solution where Capitalism is concerned.
It is Capitalism versus the planet....and nature always wins in the long term.
To survive, Capitalism requires ever increasing sales of services and manufactured goods. this requires ever increasing supplies of energy and the environmental problems which accompany that energy use.

Put simply, Capitalism needs continued development. Capitalism funds that development and that development has in a few hundred years put the long term future of humanity and thousands of other species of plants and animals at grave risk.

The unsustainable lifestyle which we are encouraged to aspire to...houses, cars, unlimited credit, gadgets which become obsolete in months,mean that our lives are controlled by the need to work harder and longer undoing all rights and conditions that our fathers and grandfathers fought the Capitalists for.

There is no solution other than dismantling this slave owning society and starting again.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 03:51 PM

"A genuinely communist society would go round, ..." Ah, no.

Okay. Sorry for posing the question in the first place.

Commies would look at the life cycle cost. High initial cost to go through the mountain, less fuel and maintenance forever. Cheaper to all in the long run.

Cappies would look at the cheap cost up front and tack on the future costs to the consumer. Fuck em, we own the railroad. They will pay what we charge.

Sorry. It was silly of me to go about that like it was a contest. I apologize for seeming trite or condescending.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 04:13 PM

Oh yes I'm the trite condescender!

Freddie Mercury....?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 05:13 PM

On the other hand, alongside the railway going round the mountain there will be scope for little townships to develop and for communities to grow, so that the railway becomes a lot more than just a link between A and B that gets there as fast as possible with no stops.

It all depends what kind of society you are hoping to develop.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 12:00 PM

Kevin--

Ah , but would like you like to abolish the London Stock Exchange tomorrow?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 01:00 PM

"would you like to..."

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 01:32 PM

I suppose these dealers earning ridiculous money are likely to spend it locally, so that's money in the till for various London enterprises. But in any case I read somewhere that before long they expect to replace the yuppies on the trading floor by computer programmes.

Basically I can't see that it makes any real difference whether all that stuff is happening in London or Outer Mongolia.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 08:22 PM

"There is no solution other than dismantling this slave owning society and starting again."

I find it impossible to subscribe to this mindset, and I would go so far as to say that this sentence demonstrates the kind of us and them thinking which prevents the solution of our problems.

The situation vis-a-vis capital and labour is a matter of balance, and no matter what argument you put forward, there IS a point where both sides can achieve the best reasonable advantage. Whether you can get both sides to sit down and thrash out where that balance point is, is another matter entirely. IMO, it won't be achieved by negative comments about slavery. Maybe it will never happen at all, but it might be smart to really try before tearing down the existing structure and replacing it with....what?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 08:28 PM

Kevin--

But do you think there is any point to having a Stock Exchange---anywhere in the world?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 11:02 PM

"The situation vis-a-vis capital and labour is a matter of balance, and no matter what argument you put forward, there IS a point where both sides can achieve the best reasonable advantage."

          Don - I agree that's true, but labor is way behind schedule on this issue. Capital is now playing workers in developing countries off against workers in Europe, North America, and Japan--among other places. Labor has to organizw world wide in order to balance the equation.


    "But do you think there is any point to having a Stock Exchange---anywhere in the world?"

          I will agree that a lot of money seems to be wasted in the effort to buy and sell securities. At the other end of the spectrum Marx seemed to have missed the necessity markets in any respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 11:09 PM

That's the question--is there a necessity for markets or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 11:57 PM

Every society depends on the marketing process to enable the exchange of goods and services between individuals and groups of people. This is also true in a socialist system, even in a primitive tribal hunter-gatherer system, but it may be handled quite a bit differently. There are many ways of handling it. You can just let the chips fall where they may by having no rule at all about what people do...or you can regulate things to one extent or another through laws, licences, etc. The larger and more complex a society gets, the more regulations usually come with it...and it gets harder and harder for ordinary people to understand it and cope with it effectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 05:30 AM

Don... you may think a FAIR balance can be struck between Capital and Labour.
But only a fool would assume that such a balance can be struck between Capital and the environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: guitar
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 05:35 AM

I'm a Socialist unlike those that voted fro the Labour party because they don't beleive in socialism anyway, I think that our natinal anthem should be THE RED FLAG

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 12:45 PM

While we're at it, Penguin Egg, why not do some more threads in the spirit of this one, like...

BS: Anyone still kicking their dog?

BS: Anyone still beating his wife?

BS: Anyone still wanking in the restroom during work hours?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: guitar
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 02:04 PM

I don't have a dog or a wife and I don't work, mind I'm now wearing glasses which means it does make you go blind

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:14 PM

Steady on Little Hawk, I'm quite happy with my decision to join the Communist Party. At the time it seemed the right thing to do and it was better to search for a better way than be one of those who just accepted all the shit that was thrown at them.

I certainly dont consider my choice to equate with "dog kicking" or "wife beating".   Never tried wanking in the rest room so don't suppose I should knock it!!

P Egg is obviously searching for something, he thinks he can humiliate by referring to how others learn from life.

Perhaps someday his search will expand his knowledge to one hundredth part of the wisdom you have aquired.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: redsnapper
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:01 PM

Yes... still essentially socialist.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:37 PM

. . . I'm swiftly becoming one. . . .

Socialist, that is.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:48 PM

"Don... you may think a FAIR balance can be struck between Capital and Labour.
But only a fool would assume that such a balance can be struck between Capital and the environment."

Ake, that is another of those "us and them" arguments, and as usual misses the point. It's a matter of priorities, surely. Capital can't save the environment without the willing co-operation of labour. They have to stop raping the earth of its finite resources, and labour has to ask for rather less in the way of consumables to make that possible, so they MUST be pulling in the same direction for it to work.

We all sink or swim on board of the same spaceship!

First the balance, then the combined effort.

If we can't achieve that I see little future for this planet.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:55 PM

We have met the . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 08:14 PM

I generally don't post to threads that I haven't read but to the question "Anyone still a socialist/communist?", ahhhhh....

....yeah...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:38 AM

I just came across what struck me as a relevant sentence in a book I'm reading at the moment: "Economic systems are not things like the stars, but things like the lamp-posts,manifestations of the human mind, and things to be judged by the heart." (From Charles Dickens by GK CHesterton.)

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:41 AM

Oh, I like that! Yeah. Indeed, they are mind-creations, and that is all...ridiculous in the face of Nature, and eventually to be erased by Nature and by time. The same can be said of all political systems.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:28 AM

Snap!!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 01:25 PM

I just came across what struck me as a relevant sentence in a book I'm reading at the moment: "Economic systems are not things like the stars, but things like the lamp-posts,manifestations of the human mind, and things to be judged by the heart." (From Charles Dickens by GK CHesterton.)

Maybe, but you don't get people saying.....I don't agree with your analysis of a lamp-post, or that's not a true lamp-post, lamp-posts are causing all trouble of this world, I regard myself as a believer in lamp posts, lamp posts must be opposed, lamp posts eat away at man's self respect,.....whereas socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 01:45 PM

That's exactly the point - we recognise that lamp-posts are things we can change around and that sometimes cease to be useful. We made them, we use them, we dispose of them.

But we don't recognise that the same is true of economic systems.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 02:08 PM

Dead centre of the target, McG, and that's what we have to start dealing with, and NOW.

Son T.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:35 AM

there's a guy calld Arthur Johnstone he's a folksinger, and he's that left wing that he thinks that Karl Marx is a right winger

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:20 AM

Hi guitar I knew Arthur when he was really radical!!
THey say he's gone soft :0)...Ake