BS: Crash of U.S. Economy

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 01:18 PM

Guest Mark C - What's to prevent China from taking over WalMart, and then using that entity to buy up the soup kitchens?

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 02:02 PM

Walmarts are just conduits for Chinese goods. Always have been, even when the TV ads said they only sold Made in USA products. That was before high definition TV and the little asterisk that noted "Sell American products when available" wasn't visible on most screens. I was under the impression the Wall family cut a deal decades ago to sell Chinese slave goods in exchange for a piece of the Wall empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 02:26 PM

Just for the record - Walmart is owned by the Walton family. Not the Wall family.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 02:34 PM

The US dollar tanks and there is nary a whisper on corp cable news.

So oil is now over 80 bucks a barrel.

I remind you that oil went from $12 to $40 a barrele when Bush Sr. first bombed Iraq.

Now it went from 50 to 80

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 03:19 PM

I just hate it when I am crashingly wrong. :) When I said it was not Bernie Sanders, I was thinking of Barney Frank. Don't even know why.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 08:12 PM

News yesterday said hundreds of jobs expected to go in the City (London)!

Once again, U.S. sneezes and the world catches a cold!

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 08:40 AM

"Just for the record - Walmart is owned by the Walton family. Not the Wall family."

            Famous for living on a Mountain named for them in the 1930`s.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 10:40 PM

The 'Naomi Wolf - The End of America' thread prompted this!

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:47 AM

Naomi Wolf seems to deal with a social/cultural decline in America. That wouldn't necessarily mean a crash of the economy. Of course a decline in the economy means different things to different people. To me it never felt like the economy recovered from whatever whoever was running Ronald Reagan did to it in the 1980's.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 09:47 AM

"No doubt about it, "the sky IS falling"!"

No - the ground is rising...


$US is at 91 Aus c - highest since we let it float... had been down to 40 c Aus...

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 01:56 PM

Amos says:
"If such chains do develop, we will face a depression, and will have to grind our way out of it; and when that occurs we will be able to trace it back to Bush 1, Bush 2 and Pops Regan, IMHO."

We are headed toward a depression because there is no disposable income for most
working people. The corporations can't survive without support from US economy. They may survive through outsourcing and off-shore banking but that doesn't affect how the US economy will deal with the unreported poverty level of the average American. These multi-nationals will eventually have to answer to disgruntled American workers. Boycotts, strikes and unrest as the economy goes down will be the order of the day. (Hello 1932).

The government will have to be drawn into a standstill economically before changes can
occur as in the New Deal. If the US continues as a dictatorship, there will be a kind of
revolution (hopefully non-violent) in this country. We have too many "good Germans" already. Some of them might wake up and find out that prosperity is not around the corner.

When industry is out-sourced, debt relief is not in sight, jobs become low-paying service instead of better-paid industrial work, CEO's are taking home too much pay and retirement benefits, this is a prescription for economic disaster. The housing bubble has exploded. Most Americans are living on borrowed credit as is the country as well.

The CAFTA, NAFTA, WTO and other disastrous so-called "free trade" agreements will be supported up to a point. Then Americans will realize that they've been had. The only solution I see is another FDR or Teddy Roosevelt to disempower the corporations.

Russia is a primary example of the kind of disaster capitalism that could infect the US if it hasn't already. Naomi Klein illustrates this well.

The question that Naomi Wolf presents is that will an American dicatorship attempt to shore up a failing economy like was done in 20's Berlin. Can we be saying "Heil Bush"?

A lot will depend on the status of the American shrinking middle class. What happens when the gigs aren't there?

Greenspan is one of Naomi Klein's "Milton Friedman Chicago boys". His outmoded
view of "trickle-down" hasn't worked but he hangs on ideologically to a sinking ship.
It's not that different from the "Social Darwinism" of the 1920's.   It's a mistaken notion that the "market corrects itself" and that human lives ultimately benefit from this dogma.
It hasn't worked and it will lead to a depression or dictatorship.

Bush and Cheney may have the idea that a war would pull the US out of a failing economy.
Many conservatives mistakenly think that this is what took place when FDR gained office.
This is a strongly debatable point. There is sufficient data to support the idea that
FDR put policies in motion to pull the country out of the Depression prior to WWII but try telling that to today's war-mongers.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 09:41 PM

"...we will face a depression, and will have to grind our way out of it; and when that occurs we will be able to trace it back to Bush 1, Bush 2 and Pops Regan..."

               Truer words were never written.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 10:26 PM

The US economy has been crashing for about twenty-seven years. Recently the slide has become more precipitous. E.g., my neighbor is an architect; his house is being foreclosed -- one of about 100 in this community alone, and we have 1.5% unemployment.

Just another blow to the middle class....

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 11:00 AM

These really low unemployment numbers are very hard to believe. The company where I work just laid off half its work force, and other people in the industry are laying off folks all over the Pacific Northwest.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 11:06 AM

Believe the numbers. PLEeeeeZE

The Office of Management and Budget has spent a fortune on private experts from Regent college, extortion, lowering or raising the bar on previous defintions and regulations, fake press conferences and strategic statistical manipulation to get you to believe the numbers.

It would be a shame to make all of their efforts a gigantic waste of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 07:49 AM

Look at all the troubel the Warren Commission went to to be believed. Practically nobody believes them now.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 07:44 AM

Little Fascist Johnny just cleverly redefined the definition of "unemployed" - 'full time employment' is now defined as an hour of work a fortnight... (that's the unemployment payment period!) - and that's after large numbers of 'approaching elderly' were moved from 'unemployed' to 'disability' pensions - then of course, there was a fuss cause there were too many 'disability pensions', so now he changed the rules to try to force those on pensions to get part time work - which counts in the stats as ... you get the idea... :-0

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:04 PM

A Pearl Harbor without war

In only 15 years, from 1992 to 2007, the US balance of trade deficit has surged from $84 billion to $700 billion.

Within a single generation, the world's biggest lender has become its biggest borrower

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:07 PM

I heard somewhere that China has 1.6 TRILLION in American Treasury Bills. Anyone else hear that?

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 08:54 PM

Close, Peace...I quote directly from Wolfgang's linked article:

"The Chinese are satisfied with buying US treasury bonds, partly to keep their most important customer afloat. The central bank in Beijing already holds currency reserves of $1.4 trillion."

So it's $1.4 trillion in US treasury bonds, not 1.6, according to that article in Der Spiegel. As the US currency loses value, the Chinese lose the value of their investment in America's future. So the question is, will they dump their US money to cut their losses? And if so, how much of it? And if they do, it's terrible trouble for the USA...and by extension, much of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Kent Davis
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:36 AM

Mark Calendar: "The U.S. has already slipped into third world status."
Bobert: "The US is getting more and more like Haiti with 1% holding all the wealth"
CarolC: "We have become a Third World nation."
Riginsilver: "The crash of the US economy really began with the election of Ronald Reagan... It accelerated greatly after Bush Jr. came to power."
Rapaire "The US economy has been crashing for about twenty-seven years. Recently the slide has become more precipitous."

How are the rest of you doing? We still have plenty of turnips, a few beets, and some sheep we can slaughter. Here in the country, we are less affected by the crash. It must be eerie in the cities, the deserted malls, the freeways nearly empty at 5 p.m., the theatres and nightclubs abandoned for the churches and soup kitchens. I think of the emigrants swimming south across the Rio Grande, hoping for a new life in Mexico. I think of Miami, that once-proud city, depopulated, the now-pensionless elderly having fled Northward to live with their grandchildren, the Cuban-Americans seeking refuge in Havana. How everyone's lifestyle must have changed - people buying only the bare necessities, grocery stores with no expensive convenience foods, lottery tickets and cigarettes sitting dusty on the store shelves while everyone spends hoarded pennies on parsnips and cabbage, Applebee's, Ruby Tuesday, and TGIFriday's going out of business as everyone cooks at home, L.L. Bean and The Gap closing as families sew their own clothing. Who would have believed, in the old days of childhood obesity and type 2 diabetes, that America would now be having epidemics of scurvy and beriberi? I could not do it now, for it would break my heart, but someday I must visit your world.
Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:51 AM

Actually, it's not de-population that's the problem, it's over population. The pie has to be cut into smaller and smaller slivers. And the economic modle that the folks who were running Ronald Reagan put into place does make it more like Haiti everyday, like one of the earlier posts mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:26 AM

Oil is pushing $100 per barrel, gold $850 per ounce. That's in US dollars. The value of the dollar is plunging. 7 years ago you could buy a Euro Dollar with 80 cents, American. Today a Euro costs $1.47.

The value of the dollar is falling. This is deliberate. The Federal Reserve prints the money for the US. The Federal Reserve is running the printing presses non-stop in order to devalue the dollar. More money in circulation = less value for that money. That's why we're in Iraq--it's a money sink. The war is intended to bankrupt the U.S., same as Afghanistan overstretched the Soviets.

The problem in the US, and the world, is paper money. All major economies are now using paper money backed by nothing. The World Bank decides which countries to make strong and which to weaken by the printing of money.

Currently, the US is being manipulated into economic hard times by the overissuance of money. The global bankers think that by routing all industry out of the country and causing unemployment, then devaluing the dollar, then flooding the country will criminal illegals, then staging terrorism, pouring dollars into war, etc., the US will take the final step to becoming a total communist state. 53% of Americans now receive "significant income" from the government , while we're told we're "capitalist". The truth is that our pensions are being invested in scams like the sub-prime fiasco, and it is inevitable that all pensioners will wake up one day with NO pensions. Then the terrorist event will be blamed on some Christian organization (cutting off that means of support for millions, once Christian churches are put on the list of terrorist organizations), and without pensions and churches, with the dollar worth a nickle, Americans will have no choice but to turn to government for their daily bread. Of course, the new "environmentalists" will take the opportunity to seize the property of those who are in the soup lines, and the land will be made off limits to the new arch-villains--polluting humanoids.

The crash of the economy is happening before your eyes, but just slowly. Like painting a picture one stroke a day. The only way to stop it is to let it happen. Let the dollar sink to zero, then get rid of the federal officials who orchestarted the whole mess. Paper money is a means of control that the global bankers have been crafting for a long, long time, and this is their payoff. They're going to seize all private property in the U.S., then Europe, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:55 PM

Is there a new definition of "Third World Country?"
Mark, let us know when your book comes out. I'll look for on the NYT Best Seller list under fiction.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:03 AM

The Republicans in American have their terrorists (and notice how the Democrats who were elected to stop the Republican madness have decided to go along with the Republicans), and the Democrats will soon terrorize with Environmentalism (notice how the Republicans are now supporting the fake global warming hysteria). Same party with a Dem and Rep hand tossing the ball back and forth.

Americans will soon be hammered with new environmental taxes. Federal regulations on building and adding to structures on personal property will be devised, and that will create a whole new bureaucracy. Tens of thousands of "inspectors" who will be "backed up" from day 1, so naturally there will be a building slowdown. Taxpayers will have to pay more for the privilege of not being to add on to their own property.

Farms will be deemed vital national infrastructure, so all you farmers better have a guest house ready for the Blackwater Homeland Security troop that'll be quartered there, to keep an eye on the terrorists wandering through the cornfields.

Islamofascism and Bioterrorism are the Republican and Democratic tools of control, respectively. No fiction about it. Bush now supports the Kyoto protocols, Pelosi/Clinton support the Iraq war.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:43 AM

Mark:

While I don't depend (God no!) on Wikipedia, this is a decent summary:

The Household income in the United States is a measure of current private income commonly used by the United States government and private institutions. To measure the income of a household, the pre-tax money receipts of all residents over the age of 15 are combined. Most of these receipts are in the form of wages and salaries (before withholding and other taxes), but many other forms of income, such as unemployment insurance, disability, child support, etc., are included as well. The residents of the household do not have to be related to the householder for their earnings to be considered part of the household's income.[1] While the use of household income remains among the most widely accepted as households tend to share a common economic fate, the size of a household which is commonly not considered may off-set gains in household income.[2]

In 2006, the median annual household income according to the US Census Bureau was determined to be $48,201.[3] The median income per household member (including all working and non-working members above the age of 14) in the year 2006 was $26,036.[4] In the year 2005, there were approximately 113,146,000 households in the United States. 19.01% of all households had annual incomes exceeding $100,000,[5] 12.7% fell below the federal poverty threshold[6] and the bottom 20% earned less than $23,202.[7] The aggregate income distribution is highly concentrated towards the top, with the top 6.37% earning roughly one third of all income, and those with upper-middle incomes control a large, though declining, share of the total earned income.[8][2] Income inequality in the United States, which had decreased slowly after World War II until 1970, began to increase slowly in the 1970's, and has increased more quickly since then.[9] Households in the top quintile, 77% of which had two income earners, had incomes exceeding $91,705. Households in the mid quintile, with a mean of one income earner per household had incomes between $36,000 and 57,657.[10]

The 2006 economic survey also found that households in the top two income quintiles, those with an annual household income exceeding $60,000, had a median of two income earners while those in the lower quintiles (2nd and middle quintile) had median of only one income earner per household. Due to high unemployment among those in the lowest quintile the median number of income earners for this particular group was determined to be zero.[5] Overall the United States followed the trend of other developed nations with a relatively large population of relatively affluent households outnumbering the poor. Among those in-between the relative extremes of the income strata a large and quite powerful section of households with moderately high middle class incomes[8] and an even larger number of households with moderately low incomes.[5] While the median household income has increased 44% since 1990 it has increased only slightly when considering inflation. In 1990, the median household income was determined to be $30,056; $44,603 in 2003 dollars. While personal income has remained relatively stagnant over the past few decades, household income has risen due to the rising percentage of households with two or more income earners. Between 1999 and 2004 household income stagnated showing a slight increase since 2004.[11][12]

(You can look up the original yourself if you're interested.)

However...the study was done before the "sub-prime" crisis. You might want to peek at one of reports from Bloomberg.

The need for two or more income earners for household income to rise is, or should be, troubling. Even more troubling should be the last line in the quote above.

If I had both the time and inclination I'd do a study of personal and household incomes in a constant dollar scenario (using, say, 1980 dollars as the base) and see what happens. I don't have either, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:49 AM

We had our money in our homes which are now worth about 20% less on top of the 38% drop in the dollar since 2001. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is some pretty slick thievery if you ask me.

Let the banks buy them up at 50 cents on the dollar and resell them for a 50% mark up within 5 years and the rip off cycle will be complete.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:41 PM

Mark

and the democrats have now leaned so far to the left that they are now to the right of Barry Goldwater Republicanism.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:10 PM

How about--for the moment, at least--ditching all the old terms like inflation, recession, depression and the like, and looking at a larger picture? An successful economy, ultimately, is one that achieves a balance between what it exports and what it imports. The US has been losing manufacturing, fishing and a lot of farming; our exports are becoming more heavily tipped towards raw materials (which won't last forever) and away from manufactured products (which add value to the raw materials they consume).
    I find it very difficult to feel that this is a healthy direction--regardless of how the Dow is doing. A country really can't survive solely by providing services to its own population.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:30 PM

This is both a parable and a true story.

Back in the 1980s library automation was starting to take off. There were many start-up companies: DRA, LIBS2000, Dataphase, Dynix, Sirsi, NOTIS, CLSI, VTLS, and others. Libraries of all sorts who could afford it (by means of bond issues, levy increases, grants, or however) automated.

Gradually, libraries have become more and more sophisticated regarding computers -- and the number of companies has shrunk. Dynix was bought by Ameritech, who also bought NOTIS; Ameritech dropped the library automation business, and the company became Epixtech, then changed its name back to Dynix, and was purchased by Sirsi (who had in the meantime acquired DRA) and is now called SirsiDynix.

Basically, what happened was that the market became saturated: everyone who could afford to automate has done so and there are no new libraries coming along. To move a customer from one product of a company to another (for example, from Dynix to Unicorn in the SirsiDynix example would be doing just that) is not a new customer: it's incest. The only way to get a new customer is to have someone leave one system and move to a completely different company.

Seems to me that the US is doing much the same sort of thing: flooding the market with goods made elsewhere from raw materials created in the US. More, we are not getting ALL of the raw materials back -- some goes to other countries.

It reminds me of Heinlein's "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress": shipping raw materials one way, even as a finished product, just isn't the best long-term economic policy.

Library automation vendors are about to find it out, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:12 PM

"A country really can't survive solely by providing services to its own population."


                That's something that has always puzzled me too. I'm amazed that the whole thing didn't fall flat on its face a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:17 PM

Only in the most smallest sense. It would be a closed system, with no new influx of money or ideas. The cobbler buys the leather from the slaughterer and makes shoes to sell to the butcher who bought the meat from the slaughterer and sold it to the cobbler.

But there is no new infusion of anything and eventually the system will decay, from entropy if nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Homey
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:31 AM

"In only 15 years, from 1992 to 2007, the US balance of trade deficit has surged from $84 billion to $700 billion."

I assume the majority of that flows to China.

"So it's $1.4 trillion in US treasury bonds ... As the US currency loses value, the Chinese lose the value of their investment in America's future. So the question is, will they dump their US money to cut their losses?"

So the Chinese will dump their US bonds and wreck the US economy so the US people will no longer be able to buy their goods which will cancel that flow of money to China?

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 09:09 AM

China has already dumped about USD120,000,000 in a "diversification" action intended to give more stability to the yuan.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: MaineDog
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 11:19 AM

BLATHER

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 10:43 AM

I wonder what will happen if it crashes before the election is over?

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 11:05 AM

An economy needs an engine.

At first the US had the engine of slavery and and a cotton industry along with light manufacturing and raw materials.

The engine was fueled by expansion like the Louisiana purchase and theft of land my murdering Indians and Mexicans.

The Civil War engine turned on heavy manufacturing.

We have lost our manufacturing.

we had a computer boom for an engine.

We are now losing our high tech manufacturing.

A series of wars have been the engine the US has relied upon for over 100 years.

The most recent engine for the economy was the low interest rate speculation on homes and the sale of bundled mortgages investement instruments called derivitives which were bought by municipalities hedge funds and world wide.
The derivitives went bust. The losses are called write offs by Banks that owned these crooked derivitives.
Towns and Counties across the US have lost their shirts on these derivitive purchases and lost taxes as people lose their homes.








The USA now needs a new engine which seems to be POLICE STATE SECURITY SYSTEMS INC. not a good sign. however you an now buy a tazer in leopard skin high fashion and sell almost any high ticket hair brained scheme to Homeland Security.

Corporatism continues to push to privatize everything in the country from the Presidency and everthing else that was once considered to be shared federal resources. Shit even the Statue of Liberty is privatized when you are able to see that private contractors really run the whole show in this new system of Milton Friedman extreme capitalism

My idea for the econmomic engine that would pay the best benefits is new energy development and hug investment in solar and othe viable alternatives.   Big Oil would rather block these efforts and milk this country for its last dime.

We need an engine. If your car doesn't have one its just a 2 ton couch.
Multinational corporations and Wall street have put their money elsewhere and at a time of disasters and a desperate need for an infrastructure we spent all our BORROWED money paying private contractors for a war in Iraq that was suppose to end with our stealing the oil...but we lost.

What are we going to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 01:59 PM

The word on Wall Street is that when the market hits 1200 the really big boys are not even going to try to artificially walk the market up anymore and a freefall where everybody is on their own will ensue.

A big push to invest overseas is underway.

The R word is now openly used and is predicted to last about 2 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: autolycus
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 03:14 PM

i a freefall where everybody is on their own will ensue.


aka 'a society'.

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:25 AM

When the market hits 12000 many investors will bail. With such low prices you would think a buying spree would bring it back up but the big bank investors will hold on to their cash. It could go even lower.


The mortgage crises will stay in limbo until a new administration is in place. When the BIG Banks determine that they have gotton all the bail outs and welfare they are going to get (not much from a Democratic Congress) they will become flexible with the tidal wave of forclosures since they do not want to kill their host - parasites that they are. Housing prices will have to drop 20% Worst case scenario is a 40% drop but rare overall (banks hope its only 10%-15% drop) but some banks are not budging and probably won't budge for another 2 years.






If you need a job that will be very busy I suggest you position yourself in servicing forclosures.

such as legal, police, storage or some other creative way to supply temporary housing.

I feel sorry for folks who borrowed on a ficticious value of their home. 2nd mortagages based on ridiculous values are in the same boat as new buyers.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:36 AM

Autioneers will probably be doing well.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,G.I. Joe
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 11:11 AM

Interesting to read this thread from the beginning. We are now there. In New England the paper lists foreclosures every day. the price of heating oil is over $3 a gal. Some people are buying desell oil 5 gal. at a time at a gas station and using it in their oil burners. Oil delivery people will not deliver less than 100 gal. at a time figure $325.00 and it is cash only. depending on the temp. an oil burner can use 10 gal. a day.... So they light the gas stove and open the oven door the keep the place warm....

In sone parts the main problen is food and disease so no mater what ever is done entire areas will be barren soil stripped, no water to plant crops.. etc. etc.   As we said in the service "Look out for Number 1"    Sorry but I dont see any other way out.....
Any one have Ideas????

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 09:30 PM

The poor will adapt or die trying, the rich are counting on it.
The rich don't need to adapt, except to defend their property with more extreme measures.

The green revolution people are finding ways to sustain large populations without the problems of sewer systems and electric grid.

25 ft Underground heat pumps can work even in Maine to heat homes while the heat pump motor is driven by solar and wind and batteries. Also simple innovations regarding self sustaining crops, horticulural techniques that even work in the desert and all the pot you can cook,,, all without shooting each other.

America will have a new bloom of Shanty Towns before things get better and all the people who pick up and move their family where they won't freeze.

Mexico is looking great to many ex pat Americans who retire in Mexico with a million dollars and live like billionaires but without local health care.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 09:46 PM

Local health care in Mexico was inexpensive and very competent when I was there. In Guadalajara, a large city.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: autolycus
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:23 AM

Americans retire to Mexico?

Can I believe what I read from across the pond.

Can that be true?

What's going on?


Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 06:38 AM

Yeah, it's the in thing to do. They can live a lot cheaper down there, so they take their money--social security or whatever--and run. It's a big boost to the Mexican economy, and a big drag on the American economy.

                      It'd be interesting to know how many military retirees--people who claim to be partiots--are taking their military retirement to Mexico.

                      This is a situation that is compounded hugely by inane civilian leadership which continues to run around the world and start wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:14 AM

Heh... I just now saw Kent Davis' interesting little straw man argument for the first time in his 14 Nov 07 - 12:36 AM post.

Mr. Davis, most Third World countries don't fit the description in your post. Your post is a straw man argument because you are using a definition of 'Third World country' that you have created in your own mind, and you are saying that since the US doesn't fit your description, it therefore cannot be a Third World country.

One of the criteria for Third World status is dependence upon exportation of primary products to other countries in return for finished products. Since we have almost no manufacturing base, and since most of the products we buy are manufactured in other countries, I'd say we certainly fit that criteria. Another criteria is the degree of disparity between rich and poor. As I said in the post that you quoted, we are behind India on that criteria. India is regarded as a Third World country. So we certainly fit that criteria as well.

Another attribute that is common with Third World countries is enormous debt. When a massive amount of a country's GDP is devoted to servicing its debt, that country is generally to be found in the Third World.

The main difference between most Third World countries and the US is that they are still developing, while we are in decline.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:27 AM

Maybe that's why visionaries like Fred Thompson and Mike Huckabee are suddenly talking about "change."

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:51 AM

WHew it sounded bad.... but George W Bush said just yesterday that he is absolutely optimistic about the economy.

absolutely optimistic. ( I hear life is just a bowl of cherries)

What will Berneke do today in the wake of other world wide Recession predictions?
I say
Lower interest rates. (
this is what caused the housing bubble compounded by approving every mortgage for a commision)
If he does it too much he is only fueling a bubble to double in size and pop a few months later.

folks, gold is going to go up again. and people will start backing away from the market.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:31 PM

Today Bernanke said he would do "whatever it takes" to keep the US out of a recession. Paul Volcker would not do that for Jimmy Carter, and sent the US and the entire world into an economic tail spin.
                      International banking cartels did really well with Volcker at the helm, why do they want to pull it out this time?