trad singers and their treatment by folk revival

Subject: trditionalsingersandtheir treatment by t
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 04:11 AM

Traditional singers and their treatment by the British folk revival.
My overall experience has been that the vast majority of traditional singers have been treated well by the British folk revival,probably the same as revival singers.
Ihave been treated badly by a folk festival organiser only once,when I was told by the organiser,that the festival couldnt pay my expenses,as they hadnt done very well,this festival continued for 27 years and is still running.
on an earlier post someone mentioned the insensitive treatment of Harry Cox,that the club Organiser allowed,Members of the audience to place tape recorders,which obviously upset Harry,and the organiser is supposed to have said oh its only old Harry.
as I can think of at least twenty traditional singers that I knew personally or were involved in booking, who were clearly getting pleasure from performing within the revival,I am concluding that Harrys treatment was part of a very small minority of inappropriate and shoddy treatment.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: Vin2
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 06:48 AM

Scuse me for being a bit slow (or maybe thick in't y'ed) but i don't quite understand why there is this argument (discussion) goin on. Surely, without traditional singers, either those who sing trad songs or songs in a traditional way, how could there be a folk revival. If trad singers aren't a part of the 'British folk revival' then who/what is this strange body called the 'British folk revival'??

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 06:55 AM

Good grief.

It's an attempt to assess how trad musicians were (or alleged to have been) treated by certain revivalists.

What's hard to understand?

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: Vin2
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 07:50 AM

Life; The origins of the universe; simultaneous equations; why poeple watch big brother; man/woman's inhumanity to each other; Politics; Good grief there's so much..........

P.s recently been given a coupla cd's of James Yorkston who i had never heard before - brill singer/musician methinks. Anyone else like im?

Pps..Very sad about George Melly. Only saw him live (in Oldham) once to my eternal shame, but he was a great character and artist, RIP.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 08:11 AM

James Yorkston is part of the Fence Collective and will be playing the Union Chapel next week, with or without the other Athletes I know not.

This would be more suited to a thread called How Revivalists Treat The Ragged.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: Vin2
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 08:43 AM

....Trousered Philanthropists?

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 01:52 PM

looks like Son of The Folk Revival to me

*cue* The Morris On Band

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 07:18 PM

Interesting thread.

Carry on. You are beginning to stir old memories.

I remember traditional singers being put in difficult positions - everybody thought they came out of the same box as Bob Dylan. I think maybe we were all a little naive back then.

The old blues singers and the like from the USA didn't seem to have the same trauma - but most of them had been pro musicians - at some point in their lives.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: GUEST,captain birdseye
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:02 PM

oh well, silence ,,so that must mean, that they were, overall treated well.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: GUEST,IS
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:28 PM

The Singers DO come out of the same box as Bob Dylan. He knew the Box as they did.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: peregrina
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:47 PM

John Cohen made a short movie about traditional Appalachian ballad singer Dillard Chandler (DVD of it it comes free now with SFolkways CD Dark Holler). Pretty moving and fascinating. A picture of his world and him and others singing.

Then some person (can't remember who, maybe a revival singer) came along and made a song about Dillard, using his very words, like how he didn't have a mailbox. The song isn't making fun of him, it is poignant and honest, but it is making him a curiosity.

In the past year I've heard that song on Mike Harding, on Late Junction, at a folk festival... and how often has anyone played Dillard himself singing on the radio? Not that I've heard. So: a traditional singer turned into a song. Hmm.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: GUEST,guest collector
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:53 PM

Yes ,but irrelevant to the Britsh folk revival.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: peregrina
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:58 PM

What's relevant? I thought that the British and American revivals were connected in intriguing ways: Alan Lomax (his essay on american revival, skiffle and the British revival in that book land where the blues began) , Shirley Collins (America across the Water--her rejoinder to Lomax, with lots on their collecting trip); Peggy Seeger coming to England after growing up with parents interested in the old singers and being made to transcribe their stuff as a child)--I think there was lots of exchange...

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: GUEST,IS
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:44 AM

I don't think John Cohen's film about Dillard Chandler is entirely unproblematic, however. It could be said to romanticise the notion of Chandler's "hardscrabble, tough livin'" mountain existence, equating it with some notion of 'authenticity'.

It reminds me of those photos of Jean Ritchie with Elizabeth Cronin in the early fifties - sitting in the little old woman's woman's old-fashioned kitchen in remotest Ireland, etc...

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:45 AM

yes, there is exchange.
But the thread was started by me in response to a statement by JimCarroll,about the mistreatment of traditional singers by the British folk revival.
Jim Carroll has yet to produce any evidence that more than a tiny proportion of tradional singers were poorly treated by the British folk revival.
if we start talking about the american folk revival on this thread it only muddies the waters.
Iam asking for evidence of poor treatment of traditional singers by the British folk revival.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: GUEST,IS
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:46 AM

PS - Peregrina, what is the song about Dillard called?

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: peregrina
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:17 AM

Guest Is:
The song about Dillard Chandler is called 'Dillard Chandler'; it was played on Mike Harding's show about three weeks ago, but the playlist is no longer posted and I couldn't find the details in a few minutes on google. However, I think that the song was written by Dick Connette.
I agree with you entirely that the film is problematic. Certainly. All the same, it gives glimpses of that world and a context for song that enlarged my understanding even if some aspects of the presentation might be troubling.

Cap'n: Yes, of course you are right about the topic of the thread. I'm guilty of not always scrolling back to the first message and relying on the thread title...

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:20 AM

yes, Icouldnt get it all in unfortunately.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 09:41 AM

Some Clubs (AND Festivals) have mistreated ALL sorts of performers in their time ! I have gone to Clubs as an 'Entertainer' and had the audience eating out of my hand , but the organiser wanted only Serious Traddy stuff - Equally , clubs like The Star in Guildford , Organisers were VERY Hospitable , but the Audiece ONLY wanted Traddy stuff ! IF you set yourself up as any kind of performer , you have to take it as it comes , and join the Union - They will at least help you get your just rewards for a Gig !

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:25 PM

I suspect that this thread might have been started in response to something I said.
Can I make it clear that I don't believe that traditional singers in general fared badly at the hands of us outsider. As a rule the behaviour towards these elderly singers was usually, in my experience, exemplary.
However, bringing singers into an environment to which they were not used did on occasion cause problems and required a degree of sensitivity and thoughtfulness which sometimes was not forthcoming.
Walter Pardon was a tolerant, easy going man who never complained, but I know he dropped at least two songs from his repertoire because of audiences who dragged down the speed of his choruses, thus forcing him to do the same. Other singers have been thrown by audiences harmonising on choruses (and on occasion by those who have insisted on joining in on the verses, whether they have been invited to do so or not). God knows what Walter and his contemporaries would have made of the eejits who find it amusing to 'pop their cheeks' on certain songs.
I've described elsewhere the experience of the elderly Irish flute player at the hands of one set of club organisers (an incident the Cap'n shrugged off by telling us how good he (the Cap'n) is to guests).
Take a simple thing like accommodation for those away from home.
There was a debate at one time in Folk Review about elderly singers who, after a hard nights singing, were then treated to 'a party' consisting of half of the people who had attended the club being invited back to where the guest was being put up for the night. In a couple of cases cited, after another couple of hours singing, the guest was then offered a piece of floor and a sleeping bag. This happened only once in my experience, but I have heard of it happening elsewhere.
On the question of payment; we were once asked to bring one of the singers we were recording to a festival and were horrified to learn on arrival that the organisers only paid the performers' expenses as it was thought good for their reputations to appear there. We had to insist, with some argument, that the singer be paid and we made up the rest of his fee by giving him our expenses.
We've discussed ad nauseum (the 'useful') Peter Kennedy's attitude to paying his singers, issuing recordings without asking or telling the performer, getting them to sign contracts which (supposedly) passed over the rights of their songs and music to him, then demanding royalties from revival singers who wished to record them, dubbing accompaniments onto field recordings, publishing other collectors work without permission…… etc, so there's no need to go there again!
Ireland has had her Kennedy-clones in the more recent past.
One record company launched a series of LPs of traditional singers, having paid them the grand sum of – a bottle of whisky each.
More recently, a Kerry broadcaster presented a series of radio programmes on folklore, song, story, music and oral history, for which none of the participants were paid, but were only too pleased to be on the radio. When the series finished, the broadcaster, without asking his informants, assembled the programmes into an attractively presented package and offered them for sale, mainly to libraries and educational establishments, at €3000.00 a set.
Probably the most poignant example of a singer not being appreciated for his contribution to traditional music was that of Traveller John Reilly, arguably one of the most important figures in the field of ballads in recent history.
John was found by a collector in a poor state of health due to the conditions he was living under. Having recorded a number of extremely good and rare ballads from John, the collector decided to try and raise some money for him by getting him a few bookings at clubs - several of these jumped at the chance.
The leading Irish music organisation (at the time) Comhaltas Ceoltóiri Eireann was informed of John's situation and importance and asked to book him at their premises in Monkstown, Dublin - they refused, saying that John wasn't 'Sean Nós' (old style). John died of malnutrition in a derelict house in Boyle, Co. Roscommon not long after.
His saga didn't end there.
After John's death, the collector decided to devote the proceeds of any recordings of John used commercially to a school for Traveller children, but trustingly, sent some of these recordings to Peter Kennedy for his opinion. The recordings were immediately put into Kennedy's catalogue and remained there for sale in spite of requests to withdraw them. Neither the collector nor the Traveller children ever saw a penny from the sales.   
The sting in the tail of John Reilly's story was that after a well known revival singer recorded the best known of John's ballads, the extremely rare 'The Maid and the Palmer' (Well Below The Valley – Child 21), for which John was the only oral source, the 'copyright' of this made its way into the hands of the highly successful middle-of-the-road musician Phil Coulter.
On a lighter note – Harry Cox was once booked at The Singers Club (I wasn't there, but my wife was). When he started to sing he was obviously uncomfortable and wasn't singing well at all. After the second song he turned his back on the audience, spat his new false teeth into a handkerchief, put them in his pocket and proceeded to sing wonderfully for the rest of the night.
I have been perhaps unfair to list the problems raised by introducing traditional singers to the revival, many of them took to the clubs like ducks to water and became established performers there, and by and large, they were treated well. Only a very small percentage of them ever visited clubs anyway (I'll show you mine cap'n if you'll show me yours!). Most of the problems occurred because of thoughtlessness and insensitivity rather than intentional bad behaviour on the part of us folkies. I have only known one occasion in which elderly singers were treated badly deliberately. A reviewer who I had upset (by criticising his mentor) decided to get his revenge by savaging an album of field singers, mainly concentrating on our notes, but also directly insulting several of the singers, and ignoring all of the others (the songs were not discussed at all). In fairness to the reviewer, I don't believe he targeted the singers deliberately; they were merely 'collateral damage' as Condoleeza Rice so quaintly and delicately put it. As the reviewer's subject wasn't really traditional song (or music), he was unable to do any real damage (the album is a best seller in field recording terms and is now coming to the end of its third pressing), but the experience tends to leave a sour taste in the mouth and makes you think twice about making your fieldwork widely available where it can be got at by such people.
Other than this sordid episode, my memories of seeing traditional singers perform at clubs have nearly always been good ones and I have felt privileged to have 'been there'.   One of the most memorable nights we have ever spent was when we took a singer/storyteller and two musicians to Cecil Sharp House where they entertained a roomful of people, singing, telling storys, playing and reminiscing – all thanks to malcolm taylor's efforts.
I do think it unfair to suggest, as has been suggested, that we can judge the performance of traditional singers the way we would judge that of younger, more street (or club) -wise revival performers, and I believe without question that we have received far morefrom the tradition than we have given – we wouldn't have had anything to sing without the singers' generosity.
Jim Carroll
PS Having god-awful computer problems so can't respond to oreder Cap'n

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:43 PM

like Walter Pardon.I am a tolerant easy going man., as a revivalist I find it difficult to tolerate the eejits who pop their cheeks.
2. revivalists are in exactly the same position about accomodation away from home.,AS traditonal singers and some of them are now quite elderly.
3 comhaltas and collectors such as Kennedy,are irrelevant to the thread,the thread is about the British folk revival and how it treated tradional singers[club /festival organisers, not comhaltas or peter kennedy[collector]].
4 [Ill show you mine capn if you show me yours]Jim Ihave previously listed 21.
5, Ido think it unfair to suggest that we judgethe performance of traditional singers etc etc etc[completely irrelevant to the thread topic]atypical Red Herring.
6.I named 21 traditional singers/Musicians who were happy with the

British folk revival,you cant name one dissatisfied performer.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:37 PM

Cap'n.

I thought you started this thread simply to score points.

I am now convinced.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 04:18 AM

2. revivalists are in exactly the same position about accomodation away from home.,AS traditonal singers and some of them are now quite elderly.
This does not make it right. Revivalist are used to the club scene, are by and large well capable of taking care of themselves.
How f****** dare you attempt to compere the two!
Kennedy and Comhaltas (both of which have shat on the tradition from a great height and for which you are an apologist), are part of the revival and have ponced off it from the beginning.

5, I do think it unfair to suggest that we judgethe performance of traditional singers etc etc etc[completely irrelevant to the thread topic]atypical Red Herring.
This is a total about turn from your statements in the past. Make up your mind.
If you want to discuss - fine; if you want to mud-wrestle - sod off to Glastonbury.
You want name - do your own homework.
A somewhat disinterested Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 06:17 AM

I am not interested in scoring points,
Iam intersted in cleaering up the misconception put forward by Jim Carroll that the British folk revival has treated traditional/source singers badly .
I refuse to trade insults,and leave it to other members to make up their minds,.Jim Carroll has provided no names and no evidence.
earlier I listed 21 singers who were all happy with their treatment at the hands of the British Folk revival.
I feel that this is particualy important for American/Australian mudcatters who may not be familiar with the British Folk Revival.,to know the truth.
   I have been involved in the British Folk Revival,either as audience, club organiser or performer,since 1965,And have either met or booked some of the traditional musicians /singers that I mentioned before,some regularly some many times.,.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 09:18 AM

Dick,

I too have booked song carriers - Lizzie Higgins, Joe Heaney, Fred Jordan, Bob Roberts etc. etc.

We treated them well in terms of what we knew then.

I reckon I would treat them a lot better now.

And I was involved in the revival before you.

So nar.......

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 10:07 AM

being involved in the revival, before me is irrelevant.
I am not disinterested,because I am seeking the truth,I want to know whether there is any truth in Jim Carrolls earlier remarks.
Ihave been fairly specific in that, by the British folk revival[Imeant folk clubs and folk festivals]as far as I know neither Peter Kennedy or Comhaltas] ran any folk festivals or clubs in Britain[so mentioning them is irrelevant]
waitng for Jim Carroll to substantiate his remarks ia a bit like waiting for a number 53 bus.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 03:01 PM

performers, whether they are revival or traditional need to be treated well,the label is irrelevant,there should be no discrimination because of how they are labelled.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 05:14 PM

Pardon me - what does "pop their cheeks" mean?

Seriously.

Seamus

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 05:56 PM

hi Seamus,
I think it means,a fashion that occurred one time in British folk clubs,when a singer was about to sing the phrase,and out of his pocket a ring he drew,various members of the audience would make a popping noise,because he was about to pop the question[marriage etc],they were just enjoying themselves after their own fashion.
but the folk police,dont approve,for that sort of frivolous behaviour,you could get sent to Outer Siberia,and made to sing,lord Randall for 24 hours nonstop.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 10:58 PM

Oh, the old finger in the mouth and pop the cheek, eh?
Never heard of it till now.
Sounds like audience participation to me.
Thanks for the elucidation Captain.

Seamus

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 05:16 AM

Still happens, on the line in Tams's "Rolling Home" - "And let the toast go free" - some people shout "Free Toast".

On the line "united we will be" a cry of "United!! - by which I mean the original United of course - Sheffield.......

Never seen any "folk police" though, ever, anywhere.

How would I recognise them?

I go to loads of traditional events, festivals, and sessions, and sometimes informal events by which I mean gathering of people which just happens to turn into a session.

That's the trouble with the folk police of course - never any around when you need them.....

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 05:21 AM

So how old do these source singers have to be to qualify as the subject of this thread?
Are there no healthy abnoxious young folkies who have learned the materiel (and the half hour intro) and are continuing to amaze and enthrall audiences the length and breadth of the country?
I personally was amazed and enthralled to hear a guy singing in diallect at last years Stsithes music event.
He had us all in stiches and I couldnt understand more than a third of his words.
Mind he was from the north.as in Newcastle,middlesbro way.
He may even have been the last living singer of Mackam(?)
Does his age(late 80's)mean we should have made him stop before midnight and go back to his tent?
I know the materiel has to be dead and dusty to interest some people
But how about the performers?

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 07:22 AM

exactly TIM,Here is an example that completely contradicts Jim Carrolls implication that all traditional singers would have a certain attitude to their songs.,[or perhaps Walters alleged attitude
The Broomfield Wager sung by Cyril Poacher on the BBC Recording, the singer and audience constantly interject the phrase Hold The Wheel,this arose as aresult of the singer trying to explain the story to a visiting yachtsman who misunsderstood had her will ,for hold the wheel.So the audience and singer were having a bit of FUN/CRAIC,not much different from the popping of the cheeks.
which might indicate ,that not all traditional singers had the same attitude to their material.
singers are singers whatever their label,some can cope with audience participation some cant.Fred Jordan IMO a consummate performer,Knew exactly how to play an audience,clearly Cyril Poacher when in the company of his mates didnt mind alittle bit of fun.
Brian Peters,while you should take what Jim Carroll says seriously,it is as well to remember it is only one take on the subject,John Howsons/SamRichards experiences ,may or may not confirm,or may differ,it is amistake to treat one persons information as gospel.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: BB
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:23 PM

The problem with the 'popping the cheek' (the ring from her finger she instantly drew) and the 'free toast' (let the toast go free) is that after they are done for the umpteenth time, they cease to be funny, and they detract from the meaning of the words of the song, just like 'the sharks they played melodeons at the bottom of the sea'. The rather beautiful words of 'Pleasant and Delightful' and the feisty fighting words of 'Rolling Home' alike seem to have been lost in the need to sing as loudly as possible with no feeling for the reality of the songs. Thus anyone that really cares about them tends not to sing them. I rather liked it when someone sang, 'The ring from her finger she silently drew' though, and it worked! I also, many years ago, knew one traditional singer who used to hit people over the head with his cap if they 'tra-la-la'd' in the middle of 'Sweet Nightingale'. The number of times I've wished I could do the same...!

I've not got any problem with humour in traditional songs or singing, but there surely has to be some respect as well. And if that makes me part of the 'folk police', so be it. Though that seems to be a term used here for anyone who says anything other than 'anything goes' at any time, in any place, in any company.

Barbara

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:35 PM

Barbara - you are a member of the folk police?

Well who'd have thought it!! :-)

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:48 PM

I'm a Sergeant in the Folk Police.

"Now come along quietly, Cap'n, and don't make a fuss! You have a right to remain silent, but anything you do say ... something, something, something ... which you do not mention in court ... or something"

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:51 PM

well, I find I dont sing those songs in public performance,Because IMO they are hackneyed,.
I might sing The Nightingale purely for my own pleasure to myself,.but im not put off singing a song by somebody participating with a bird call or anything else,performance is about reaction,and dealing with situations.
Respect for your material is important,and I wouldnt encourage an audience to take the piss out of a song,but if people are making popping noises or whatever,a good performer knows how to deal with it,how to turn it to his advantage and how to win his audience,lecturing people does not work.
the term Folk Police,was used in a light hearted manner,but there is an aspect of truth in what I am saying,going to a folk club or a folk festival is partly about socialising,.
what puts anumber of people off is the church like attitude,that doesnt mean anarchy[or anything goes] should reign either,its only a question of getting a happy medium .

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:53 PM

neXt time I see you Barbara,I hope youll be in plain clothes.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:53 PM

Madame Arcarty.

She was a happy medium.

:-)

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv
From: Dave Earl
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 03:06 PM

"on the line in Tams's "Rolling Home" - "And let the toast go free" - some people shout "Free Toast".

God how I hate that.

I have taken to leaving out that verse and repeating the first "round goes the wheel of fortune" verse - messes up the song I know but doesn't half catch out the Free Toasters. I've seen 'em building up for the cry -grins, winks, nudges and so on- and then looking totally flummoxed when I don't give 'em the chance.

One of those Free toasters said "That's not the way the song goes" to which I said " Does that mean the Free toast bellow is the right way to sing it?"

"only a bit of a joke you know" I was told

Maybe it was the first time I heard it but it ruins the song for me when I hear it now.

Sorry bit odd topic I know - Apologies!

Have your thread back.

Dave

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 04:30 PM

I would like to meet a happy medium,if they are all so good at telling the future,how come they dont pick the right lotto numbers every week.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 06:59 PM

Cap'n Birdseye said:
"Respect for your material is important,and I wouldnt encourage an audience to take the piss out of a song......a good performer knows how to deal with it,how to turn it to his advantage and how to win his audience,lecturing people does not work."

We are talking here about source singers, I believe, and not professional performers who are there by choice. Some of the old source singers who were 'discovered' by collectors, and who had been encouraged to perform their material for interested audiences would have been completely unprepared for such a reaction as described. Such disrespectful behaviour would never have happened when they performed within their own milieu and, in my view, should never have been allowed to happen when they so generously shared their art with folk audiences.

So that makes me a member of the folk police too.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 07:13 PM

no,Mary,Jims phrase was the ejits that pop their mouths[andwhat WalterPardon would have made of it].it never happened to Walter Pardon,never has it happened in my experience to any traditional singer.
I repeat traditional singers have been shown great respect by the revival.Mary/Jim please give examples of this disrespect[popping of the mouth] to source singers.
CyrilPoacher and his friends clearly had a more relaaxed attitude with their hold the wheel cries,however there is no evidence to suggest anyone popped their mouth at Cyril Poacher in the Blaxhall Ship.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 07:25 PM

I threw a wobbly, at MBS Lynne's Ashby-de-la-Zouch reunion at the Volunteer in Sidmouth 2 years ago, by sitting down and stopping singing when my supposed to be straight version of Pleasant and Delightful got taken over by sharks playing melodeons.

It all depends, really, on whether you're singing for art or fun.

Kitty

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 08:03 PM

That 'hold the wheel' business was dropped after a while. They got bored with it. If only the free-toasters and handclappers had that degree of senstitivity and imagination...

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 08:44 PM

Herga Kitty and BretonCap have provided further evidence that revival singers,have had disrepectful treatment by the revival,but still no evidence that source singers have ever been treated thus,itwould appear they[source singers] have had better treatment.

However when it comes to decent accomodation,I think the argument that revivalist singers are used to it,and source singers are not[seeJim Carrolls earlier post]is a mistaken one,it is rather like telling a slum dweller,well your used to living in a slum,so you will have to put up with it.
good accomodation is needed for guesting singers whether they are revival or source.
Personally I have never popped my cheeks at anyone[source or Revialist].,or substituted silly words
when I was a club Organiser,I made sure that source singers /musicians were treated with proper respect.
As an experienced revival performer,I can cope with popping mouths,but would agree that it is disrepectful to a source performer,if it should happen,.
But in my experience it never has,and is unlikely to,because most revival festival and club organisers,Treasure their source singers,and ensure[rightly so] they get cotton wool treatment.DickMiles

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: Effsee
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 09:36 PM

I'm reminded of the tale of Davie Stewart, a wonderful singer, diddler and melodian player from the travelling community,who was taken to London by , I think, a BBC person(?), and put up in a grand hotel for the night before a recording session. It was probably the best billet that Davie had ever had, but they forgot to cater for the MAN. Davie got bored in his grand hotel room, so did what came naturally to him...and went out busking! He was promptly arrested and said BBC person (I think) had to bail him out for the recording session the next morning.

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 01:45 AM

I think the Cap'n has missed my point; I wrote 'God knows what Walter and his contemporaries would have made of the eejits who find it amusing to 'pop their cheeks' on certain songs'; I did not claim it happened; Mary, Barbara and others have indicated that I am not the only one who is disturbed by such behavior, and that will do for me.
I did cite the case of Walter having to drop two songs from his repertoire because of the insensitivity of some audiences, and others having problems with members of audiences who insist on joining in verses, which, to me, is just as bad.
I must say I find the term 'Folk Police' one of the more offensive of the juvenile terms of abuse which surface when people run out of arguments and find themselves in a corner.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 02:51 AM

I heard that one of our traditional singers after a booking in the North East turned up on the club organiser's doorstep at midnight saying that the accommodation that the club had booked for him (a room in the pub in which he had just sung)was "way too posh for him!"

Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 06:30 AM

Jim ,the term folk police was used in a light hearted manner,it was a joke,..
I am still waiting for evidence of the revivals bad treatment,of source singers,
Jim,your one example of people joining in verses with Walter,is something I would not be happy about either,but it is still miniscule evidence,and has to be seen as part of an overall picture where source singers /musicians,have got on well within the revival.
Mary AND Barbaras attitude indicates to me that if it happened to a source singer[which so far, apparently has not happened]that there would be enough people in the audience to complain to the organiser and a stop would be put to it,but it has never happened.
for people not familiar with the British Folk Revival,I feel it is important it is portrayed correctly and fairly.