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trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 13 Jul 07 - 12:31 AM I have a recollection of a post by someone, possibly Tabster,of a night after a folk club,the whole night was spent singing and playing in the company of Packie Byrne[which must have been wonderful]. Packie is a traditional singer/ musician,so occassionally trad singers it seems have other needs, than being tucked up in bed immediately after a gig. that doesnt mean of course they should be subjected to all night parties if they dont want them. just ,they are human like everyone else,and might sometimes enjoy letting their hair down. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: GUEST,Young Buchan Date: 12 Jul 07 - 11:49 AM I also don't know if anyone ever popped their cheeks to Cyril Poacher, but the USAF airbase crews who went for a drink in the Ship used to strum their guitars while he and the others were singing - and generally what the former were strumming was not what the latter were singing - to the point where it was very difficult to get him to sing at all. Also I have mentioned on another thread the story that Bob Pegg once saw Harry Cox performing at a Norfolk folk club, and every time he tried to sing, someone with a reel to feel recorder practically shoved the 'lollipop' up his nose. When Bob complained, the response of the MC was 'It's alright. It's only old Harry. He doesn't know what's going on!' In fairness I should say that some of the old boys were known to get their own back. Fred Jordan for one had a line in asides the loudness of which was, I suspect, not always directly attributable to his declining hearing in later years. I was once the patsy when someone had sung 'One too many mornings' and Fred turned to me and asked not very quietly 'What's that, boy? I haven't heard that before.' (Me) 'That's by Bob Dylan' (Fred) 'Oh that's why I haven't heard it, see!' And whilst I don't hold him in quite the same catagory as the above, let me open a floodgate: please write in, all the people who were ever interrupted/halted in their performance by helpful comments on their technique by Ken Loveless. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 11 Jul 07 - 05:45 PM It seems to me that a lot of audiences don't really discern or understand the difference between a 'chorus' and a 'refrain'. A 'chorus' is something like the, "No, nay, never" bit in the 'Wild Rover' (please, God - forgive me for quoting from the 'Wild Rover'!!). A refrain is something like the, "Fine laurel, fine floro" bit in 'Black Dog and Sheepcrook'. A chorus is almost designed to be 'belted out' but a refrain is a, somehow, more 'integral' part of the song; at least it is from my perspective as a singer. And as a singer I want to interpret the refrain in my own way and not at a tempo dictated by the audience. I recently sang a song with, what I think, is very moving and affecting refrain but not only did certain members of the audience attempt to dictate my tempo but some idiot at the back also attempted a harmony - and ended up singing in a completely different key (very off-putting)! |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 11 Jul 07 - 07:04 AM SORRY my previous post, should have included,if the participant singer wasnt very good/or out of tune then ,it would be better if they shut up. again I agree Barbara about watching the lead. Some ballads like Swan Swims so bonny,can be really powerful with good singers joining in the chorus. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: BB Date: 11 Jul 07 - 05:55 AM As to that, Dick, if the audience are listening, and watching, the lead singer, that shouldn't be a problem, but hell, it's frustrating when it does happen! Barbara |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 11 Jul 07 - 05:53 AM I agree with you,Jim.,. even a good harmony can be distracting as a singer,because you start to think,thats good whos doing that,and your attention can wander from the interpretation of THE STORY,If it is a shanty I would probably feel differently.,if the participant singer wasnt very good. I once had an experience when I was guesting at a FOLK CLUB,when a concertina player decided to join in with me,unfortunately our concertina chord progressions were different,itwas very annoying. Barbara,your right ,its about respect,thesame thing can besaid about slowing down of choruses. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: BB Date: 11 Jul 07 - 05:27 AM "A sensitive audience will allow the singer to decide how a song is performed" Yes, indeed, Jim. That doesn't necessarily have to mean that people should never join in with the verses, but they should let the singer lead the song, and not overwhelm his/her voice. Sometimes, there is nothing better than hearing almost a gentle hum behind the main singer's voice on a well-known song. They are respecting the singer and the song - and obviously listening! I say 'sometimes', and it does depend on the circumstances - whether it's a communal session or whether it's a 'performance' situation, as it would be when someone is the guest singer at a club. In my opinion, the latter would probably not be an appropriate time to join in with the whole song. I know that there are many who would disagree with me, probably including you, Jim! To some people, one should never join in with the verses (some even think choruses aren't for everyone to sing!), and some think you should be able to join in with anything and everything, but again, it all comes down to respect, I think. Barbara |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv From: GUEST Date: 11 Jul 07 - 02:58 AM Santa, To many performers singing a song is a private matter. Should they wish to make it otherwise, that is surely their choice - basic good manners. A sensitive audience will allow the singer to decide how a song is performed - unless you want to make all performances community sing-songs. Jim Carroll
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 11 Jul 07 - 12:41 AM Note that Hamish and Peter didn't 'roast' poor wee Duncan. That was done by his friends, who evidently felt that he ought to sing. Blame them, if you like; but not the all-too-often demonised 'collectors', without whom we would have very little to talk about. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: Stringsinger Date: 11 Jul 07 - 12:02 AM Singers and musicians don't belong in test tubes. They are human beings. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: Matthew Edwards Date: 10 Jul 07 - 05:32 PM I've often wondered about the traumatic experience of young Duncan MacPhee who was compelled to sing his songs after being rugby tackled and roasted over an open campfire. The incident occurred at the berryfields in Blairgowrie in July 1955 when Hamish Henderson and Peter Kennedy were recording the amazing treasury of ballads and songs among travellers; Henderson compared the experience of making these recordings as being "like holding a tin can under Niagara Falls". Anyway the then 19 year old Duncan had a good reputation as a singer, but was reluctant to sing in public and as Henderson tells the story - "he jumped up from the camp-fire and tried to escape, and had to be pursued and carried back, kicking and struggling, by the other lads in the encampment"[1]. Kennedy adds that "nineteen year old Duncan McPhee[sic] had to be held over a camp fire and roasted by a crowd of his young tinker friends before he would sing..."[2] In these circumstances it is amazing that the young man then proceeded to sing with some considerable mastery and assurance such songs as the Child ballad The False Knight on the Road, and The Banks of Red Roses[3]. However it is understandable that he never recorded again; I don't know what happened to him - he may well still be around, but the loss of a talent like his is one of the sad stories of the times. I hope collectors these days treat their sources more gently! [1] Hamish Henderson, Notes to LP The Muckle Sangs: Classic Scots Ballads, Tangent Records, 1975. [2] Peter Kennedy (ed.), Folksongs of Britain and Ireland, Oak Publications, London, 1975. p. 475 [3] The few songs recorded by Duncan MacPhee at the 1955 campfire session are available as follows:- The False Knight on the Road(fragment), Track 3b, The Muckle Sangs: Classic Scots Ballads, Greentrax CDTRAX9005 (reissue of Tangent LP) On the Bonny Banks o' the Roses, Track 10, Songs of the Travelling People Saydisc CD-SDL 4707 Various songs from the 1955 campfire session by Duncan and other singers have been issued on Folktrax; FTX-183 - THREE LOVELY LASSES THE TRAVELLERS CAMPFIRE - 1, but I haven't heard this so I can't vouch for its quality. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: GUEST,Santa Date: 10 Jul 07 - 04:08 PM "one example of people joining in verses with Walter" Good God! We can't have that - a folk song club where folk actually sang! I hope you stamped that out pretty thoroughly, who knows where it could end? I don't know whether this thread should be ended or not, but isn't it getting a little, well, precious? |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 10 Jul 07 - 03:59 PM BB,I said it has never happened in my EXPERIENCE,[please quote me correctly]and as A revival performer for 31years, I have quite a large experience. many years ago,one of the traditional musicians I booked,clearly had no idea of Folk club etiquette ,and talked loudly through floor singers spots.I gave the musician preferential treatment[because they were a source musician],any other audience member I would have asked to be quiet,had another member of the audience complained about the talker I would have been forced to ask them tactfully to be quiet.,so it can work both ways. Yes, I would agree with you Barbara. Hopefully this thread may have acheived something, if it has made people aware that all performers should be treated well,and that the British folk revival has treated its source singers generally speaking in an exemplary manner,and often better than revivalist singers have been treated. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: BB Date: 10 Jul 07 - 03:20 PM Dick said, "neXt time I see you Barbara,I hope youll be in plain clothes." So do I, Dick! Don't think I'd look good in uniform! Dick, I'm not prepared to drop a song like 'Pleasant & Delightful' just because it is thought to be hackneyed - I'd rather try to persuade people to listen again to it and realise what a beautiful song it is. I learnt it, and 'Sweet Nightingale', within the context of the tradition and from traditional singers. And, as I said above, one of those traditional singers used to get very hacked off with revivalists who 'tra-la-la'd' in the latter song. Fortunately, he was able to cope with it, and in a way that had a certain element of humour in it. I can quite see that there may be/may have been traditional singers who can't/couldn't. I think to say that "it has never happened" is somewhat of a sweeping statement. None of us has been at all performances within the revival of all traditional singers. My experience, however, is that by and large the revival has treated traditional singers with a great deal of respect, and I do feel that if someone had pointed out the fact that Walter was singing a different version of a well-known chorus, the revival singers would probably have stopped and listened before joining in with *his* version. I'm pretty sure that they would not knowingly have sung it differently. The fault, if anyone's, was probably the MC's for not stopping the audience with a quick 'The singer's version, please.' That's usually all it takes. As to accommodation, I'm with Dick on this one. Accommodation should always be as comfortable as possible within someone's home, whether for trad. or revival performers, but I can quite see that many traditional performers might be happier with that than in some impersonal hotel. I thought I'd go back to the beginning of this thread, as I couldn't remember why you had started it, Dick. I now see why, but Jim shortly followed by saying, "Can I make it clear that I don't believe that traditional singers in general fared badly at the hands of us outsiders. As a rule the behaviour towards these elderly singers was usually, in my experience, exemplary." He then went on to cite a few cases, which is what you asked him to do. Can we not all agree that the cases of mistreatment, intentional or otherwise, were and are few and far between, and leave it at that? Let's all just be aware of how we treat *any* performer, and show respect to them *and* their material. Barbara |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: George Papavgeris Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:00 AM Just poetic licence, Dick (and I know I'm not a poet, before anyone else says it!). I was literal about the voice though. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:44 AM I am asking for this thread to be closed.I have tried to have a reasonable discussion,I have been called a comhaltas/PeterKennedy apologist ,told to sod off to glastonbury,it appears that the discussion is not going anywhere, GEORGE,Check effsee,andDaveS thread, I do not appear to be alone.I think in fairness your rhyme should be directed at Jim as well. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: George Papavgeris Date: 10 Jul 07 - 06:55 AM Will the circle be unbroken? "Miniscule" compared to what? To the Cap'n it's just a token, but to Jim it's more than that. Dick, your voice 's sweeter than clover, but in this you are alone. Even Wimbledon is over. Call it deuce and let's go home. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 10 Jul 07 - 06:30 AM Jim ,the term folk police was used in a light hearted manner,it was a joke,.. I am still waiting for evidence of the revivals bad treatment,of source singers, Jim,your one example of people joining in verses with Walter,is something I would not be happy about either,but it is still miniscule evidence,and has to be seen as part of an overall picture where source singers /musicians,have got on well within the revival. Mary AND Barbaras attitude indicates to me that if it happened to a source singer[which so far, apparently has not happened]that there would be enough people in the audience to complain to the organiser and a stop would be put to it,but it has never happened. for people not familiar with the British Folk Revival,I feel it is important it is portrayed correctly and fairly. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: Dave Sutherland Date: 10 Jul 07 - 02:51 AM I heard that one of our traditional singers after a booking in the North East turned up on the club organiser's doorstep at midnight saying that the accommodation that the club had booked for him (a room in the pub in which he had just sung)was "way too posh for him!" |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv From: GUEST,Jim Carroll Date: 10 Jul 07 - 01:45 AM I think the Cap'n has missed my point; I wrote 'God knows what Walter and his contemporaries would have made of the eejits who find it amusing to 'pop their cheeks' on certain songs'; I did not claim it happened; Mary, Barbara and others have indicated that I am not the only one who is disturbed by such behavior, and that will do for me. I did cite the case of Walter having to drop two songs from his repertoire because of the insensitivity of some audiences, and others having problems with members of audiences who insist on joining in verses, which, to me, is just as bad. I must say I find the term 'Folk Police' one of the more offensive of the juvenile terms of abuse which surface when people run out of arguments and find themselves in a corner. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: Effsee Date: 09 Jul 07 - 09:36 PM I'm reminded of the tale of Davie Stewart, a wonderful singer, diddler and melodian player from the travelling community,who was taken to London by , I think, a BBC person(?), and put up in a grand hotel for the night before a recording session. It was probably the best billet that Davie had ever had, but they forgot to cater for the MAN. Davie got bored in his grand hotel room, so did what came naturally to him...and went out busking! He was promptly arrested and said BBC person (I think) had to bail him out for the recording session the next morning. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jul 07 - 08:44 PM Herga Kitty and BretonCap have provided further evidence that revival singers,have had disrepectful treatment by the revival,but still no evidence that source singers have ever been treated thus,itwould appear they[source singers] have had better treatment. However when it comes to decent accomodation,I think the argument that revivalist singers are used to it,and source singers are not[seeJim Carrolls earlier post]is a mistaken one,it is rather like telling a slum dweller,well your used to living in a slum,so you will have to put up with it. good accomodation is needed for guesting singers whether they are revival or source. Personally I have never popped my cheeks at anyone[source or Revialist].,or substituted silly words when I was a club Organiser,I made sure that source singers /musicians were treated with proper respect. As an experienced revival performer,I can cope with popping mouths,but would agree that it is disrepectful to a source performer,if it should happen,. But in my experience it never has,and is unlikely to,because most revival festival and club organisers,Treasure their source singers,and ensure[rightly so] they get cotton wool treatment.DickMiles |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 Jul 07 - 08:03 PM That 'hold the wheel' business was dropped after a while. They got bored with it. If only the free-toasters and handclappers had that degree of senstitivity and imagination... |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: Herga Kitty Date: 09 Jul 07 - 07:25 PM I threw a wobbly, at MBS Lynne's Ashby-de-la-Zouch reunion at the Volunteer in Sidmouth 2 years ago, by sitting down and stopping singing when my supposed to be straight version of Pleasant and Delightful got taken over by sharks playing melodeons. It all depends, really, on whether you're singing for art or fun. Kitty |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jul 07 - 07:13 PM no,Mary,Jims phrase was the ejits that pop their mouths[andwhat WalterPardon would have made of it].it never happened to Walter Pardon,never has it happened in my experience to any traditional singer. I repeat traditional singers have been shown great respect by the revival.Mary/Jim please give examples of this disrespect[popping of the mouth] to source singers. CyrilPoacher and his friends clearly had a more relaaxed attitude with their hold the wheel cries,however there is no evidence to suggest anyone popped their mouth at Cyril Poacher in the Blaxhall Ship. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv From: Mary Humphreys Date: 09 Jul 07 - 06:59 PM Cap'n Birdseye said: "Respect for your material is important,and I wouldnt encourage an audience to take the piss out of a song......a good performer knows how to deal with it,how to turn it to his advantage and how to win his audience,lecturing people does not work." We are talking here about source singers, I believe, and not professional performers who are there by choice. Some of the old source singers who were 'discovered' by collectors, and who had been encouraged to perform their material for interested audiences would have been completely unprepared for such a reaction as described. Such disrespectful behaviour would never have happened when they performed within their own milieu and, in my view, should never have been allowed to happen when they so generously shared their art with folk audiences. So that makes me a member of the folk police too. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jul 07 - 04:30 PM I would like to meet a happy medium,if they are all so good at telling the future,how come they dont pick the right lotto numbers every week. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv From: Dave Earl Date: 09 Jul 07 - 03:06 PM "on the line in Tams's "Rolling Home" - "And let the toast go free" - some people shout "Free Toast". God how I hate that. I have taken to leaving out that verse and repeating the first "round goes the wheel of fortune" verse - messes up the song I know but doesn't half catch out the Free Toasters. I've seen 'em building up for the cry -grins, winks, nudges and so on- and then looking totally flummoxed when I don't give 'em the chance. One of those Free toasters said "That's not the way the song goes" to which I said " Does that mean the Free toast bellow is the right way to sing it?" "only a bit of a joke you know" I was told Maybe it was the first time I heard it but it ruins the song for me when I hear it now. Sorry bit odd topic I know - Apologies! Have your thread back. Dave |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv From: Folkiedave Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:53 PM Madame Arcarty. She was a happy medium. :-) |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:53 PM neXt time I see you Barbara,I hope youll be in plain clothes. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:51 PM well, I find I dont sing those songs in public performance,Because IMO they are hackneyed,. I might sing The Nightingale purely for my own pleasure to myself,.but im not put off singing a song by somebody participating with a bird call or anything else,performance is about reaction,and dealing with situations. Respect for your material is important,and I wouldnt encourage an audience to take the piss out of a song,but if people are making popping noises or whatever,a good performer knows how to deal with it,how to turn it to his advantage and how to win his audience,lecturing people does not work. the term Folk Police,was used in a light hearted manner,but there is an aspect of truth in what I am saying,going to a folk club or a folk festival is partly about socialising,. what puts anumber of people off is the church like attitude,that doesnt mean anarchy[or anything goes] should reign either,its only a question of getting a happy medium . |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:48 PM I'm a Sergeant in the Folk Police. "Now come along quietly, Cap'n, and don't make a fuss! You have a right to remain silent, but anything you do say ... something, something, something ... which you do not mention in court ... or something" |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv From: Folkiedave Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:35 PM Barbara - you are a member of the folk police? Well who'd have thought it!! :-) |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: BB Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:23 PM The problem with the 'popping the cheek' (the ring from her finger she instantly drew) and the 'free toast' (let the toast go free) is that after they are done for the umpteenth time, they cease to be funny, and they detract from the meaning of the words of the song, just like 'the sharks they played melodeons at the bottom of the sea'. The rather beautiful words of 'Pleasant and Delightful' and the feisty fighting words of 'Rolling Home' alike seem to have been lost in the need to sing as loudly as possible with no feeling for the reality of the songs. Thus anyone that really cares about them tends not to sing them. I rather liked it when someone sang, 'The ring from her finger she silently drew' though, and it worked! I also, many years ago, knew one traditional singer who used to hit people over the head with his cap if they 'tra-la-la'd' in the middle of 'Sweet Nightingale'. The number of times I've wished I could do the same...! I've not got any problem with humour in traditional songs or singing, but there surely has to be some respect as well. And if that makes me part of the 'folk police', so be it. Though that seems to be a term used here for anyone who says anything other than 'anything goes' at any time, in any place, in any company. Barbara |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jul 07 - 07:22 AM exactly TIM,Here is an example that completely contradicts Jim Carrolls implication that all traditional singers would have a certain attitude to their songs.,[or perhaps Walters alleged attitude The Broomfield Wager sung by Cyril Poacher on the BBC Recording, the singer and audience constantly interject the phrase Hold The Wheel,this arose as aresult of the singer trying to explain the story to a visiting yachtsman who misunsderstood had her will ,for hold the wheel.So the audience and singer were having a bit of FUN/CRAIC,not much different from the popping of the cheeks. which might indicate ,that not all traditional singers had the same attitude to their material. singers are singers whatever their label,some can cope with audience participation some cant.Fred Jordan IMO a consummate performer,Knew exactly how to play an audience,clearly Cyril Poacher when in the company of his mates didnt mind alittle bit of fun. Brian Peters,while you should take what Jim Carroll says seriously,it is as well to remember it is only one take on the subject,John Howsons/SamRichards experiences ,may or may not confirm,or may differ,it is amistake to treat one persons information as gospel. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: Tim theTwangler Date: 09 Jul 07 - 05:21 AM So how old do these source singers have to be to qualify as the subject of this thread? Are there no healthy abnoxious young folkies who have learned the materiel (and the half hour intro) and are continuing to amaze and enthrall audiences the length and breadth of the country? I personally was amazed and enthralled to hear a guy singing in diallect at last years Stsithes music event. He had us all in stiches and I couldnt understand more than a third of his words. Mind he was from the north.as in Newcastle,middlesbro way. He may even have been the last living singer of Mackam(?) Does his age(late 80's)mean we should have made him stop before midnight and go back to his tent? I know the materiel has to be dead and dusty to interest some people But how about the performers? |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv From: Folkiedave Date: 09 Jul 07 - 05:16 AM Still happens, on the line in Tams's "Rolling Home" - "And let the toast go free" - some people shout "Free Toast". On the line "united we will be" a cry of "United!! - by which I mean the original United of course - Sheffield....... Never seen any "folk police" though, ever, anywhere. How would I recognise them? I go to loads of traditional events, festivals, and sessions, and sometimes informal events by which I mean gathering of people which just happens to turn into a session. That's the trouble with the folk police of course - never any around when you need them..... |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 08 Jul 07 - 10:58 PM Oh, the old finger in the mouth and pop the cheek, eh? Never heard of it till now. Sounds like audience participation to me. Thanks for the elucidation Captain. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 08 Jul 07 - 05:56 PM hi Seamus, I think it means,a fashion that occurred one time in British folk clubs,when a singer was about to sing the phrase,and out of his pocket a ring he drew,various members of the audience would make a popping noise,because he was about to pop the question[marriage etc],they were just enjoying themselves after their own fashion. but the folk police,dont approve,for that sort of frivolous behaviour,you could get sent to Outer Siberia,and made to sing,lord Randall for 24 hours nonstop. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 08 Jul 07 - 05:14 PM Pardon me - what does "pop their cheeks" mean? Seriously. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 08 Jul 07 - 03:01 PM performers, whether they are revival or traditional need to be treated well,the label is irrelevant,there should be no discrimination because of how they are labelled. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 08 Jul 07 - 10:07 AM being involved in the revival, before me is irrelevant. I am not disinterested,because I am seeking the truth,I want to know whether there is any truth in Jim Carrolls earlier remarks. Ihave been fairly specific in that, by the British folk revival[Imeant folk clubs and folk festivals]as far as I know neither Peter Kennedy or Comhaltas] ran any folk festivals or clubs in Britain[so mentioning them is irrelevant] waitng for Jim Carroll to substantiate his remarks ia a bit like waiting for a number 53 bus. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv From: Folkiedave Date: 08 Jul 07 - 09:18 AM Dick, I too have booked song carriers - Lizzie Higgins, Joe Heaney, Fred Jordan, Bob Roberts etc. etc. We treated them well in terms of what we knew then. I reckon I would treat them a lot better now. And I was involved in the revival before you. So nar....... |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 08 Jul 07 - 06:17 AM I am not interested in scoring points, Iam intersted in cleaering up the misconception put forward by Jim Carroll that the British folk revival has treated traditional/source singers badly . I refuse to trade insults,and leave it to other members to make up their minds,.Jim Carroll has provided no names and no evidence. earlier I listed 21 singers who were all happy with their treatment at the hands of the British Folk revival. I feel that this is particualy important for American/Australian mudcatters who may not be familiar with the British Folk Revival.,to know the truth. I have been involved in the British Folk Revival,either as audience, club organiser or performer,since 1965,And have either met or booked some of the traditional musicians /singers that I mentioned before,some regularly some many times.,.Dick Miles |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv From: GUEST,Jim Carroll Date: 08 Jul 07 - 04:18 AM 2. revivalists are in exactly the same position about accomodation away from home.,AS traditonal singers and some of them are now quite elderly. This does not make it right. Revivalist are used to the club scene, are by and large well capable of taking care of themselves. How f****** dare you attempt to compere the two! Kennedy and Comhaltas (both of which have shat on the tradition from a great height and for which you are an apologist), are part of the revival and have ponced off it from the beginning. 5, I do think it unfair to suggest that we judgethe performance of traditional singers etc etc etc[completely irrelevant to the thread topic]atypical Red Herring. This is a total about turn from your statements in the past. Make up your mind. If you want to discuss - fine; if you want to mud-wrestle - sod off to Glastonbury. You want name - do your own homework. A somewhat disinterested Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv From: Folkiedave Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:37 PM Cap'n. I thought you started this thread simply to score points. I am now convinced. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:43 PM like Walter Pardon.I am a tolerant easy going man., as a revivalist I find it difficult to tolerate the eejits who pop their cheeks. 2. revivalists are in exactly the same position about accomodation away from home.,AS traditonal singers and some of them are now quite elderly. 3 comhaltas and collectors such as Kennedy,are irrelevant to the thread,the thread is about the British folk revival and how it treated tradional singers[club /festival organisers, not comhaltas or peter kennedy[collector]]. 4 [Ill show you mine capn if you show me yours]Jim Ihave previously listed 21. 5, Ido think it unfair to suggest that we judgethe performance of traditional singers etc etc etc[completely irrelevant to the thread topic]atypical Red Herring. 6.I named 21 traditional singers/Musicians who were happy with the British folk revival,you cant name one dissatisfied performer. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv From: GUEST Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:25 PM I suspect that this thread might have been started in response to something I said. Can I make it clear that I don't believe that traditional singers in general fared badly at the hands of us outsider. As a rule the behaviour towards these elderly singers was usually, in my experience, exemplary. However, bringing singers into an environment to which they were not used did on occasion cause problems and required a degree of sensitivity and thoughtfulness which sometimes was not forthcoming. Walter Pardon was a tolerant, easy going man who never complained, but I know he dropped at least two songs from his repertoire because of audiences who dragged down the speed of his choruses, thus forcing him to do the same. Other singers have been thrown by audiences harmonising on choruses (and on occasion by those who have insisted on joining in on the verses, whether they have been invited to do so or not). God knows what Walter and his contemporaries would have made of the eejits who find it amusing to 'pop their cheeks' on certain songs. I've described elsewhere the experience of the elderly Irish flute player at the hands of one set of club organisers (an incident the Cap'n shrugged off by telling us how good he (the Cap'n) is to guests). Take a simple thing like accommodation for those away from home. There was a debate at one time in Folk Review about elderly singers who, after a hard nights singing, were then treated to 'a party' consisting of half of the people who had attended the club being invited back to where the guest was being put up for the night. In a couple of cases cited, after another couple of hours singing, the guest was then offered a piece of floor and a sleeping bag. This happened only once in my experience, but I have heard of it happening elsewhere. On the question of payment; we were once asked to bring one of the singers we were recording to a festival and were horrified to learn on arrival that the organisers only paid the performers' expenses as it was thought good for their reputations to appear there. We had to insist, with some argument, that the singer be paid and we made up the rest of his fee by giving him our expenses. We've discussed ad nauseum (the 'useful') Peter Kennedy's attitude to paying his singers, issuing recordings without asking or telling the performer, getting them to sign contracts which (supposedly) passed over the rights of their songs and music to him, then demanding royalties from revival singers who wished to record them, dubbing accompaniments onto field recordings, publishing other collectors work without permission…… etc, so there's no need to go there again! Ireland has had her Kennedy-clones in the more recent past. One record company launched a series of LPs of traditional singers, having paid them the grand sum of – a bottle of whisky each. More recently, a Kerry broadcaster presented a series of radio programmes on folklore, song, story, music and oral history, for which none of the participants were paid, but were only too pleased to be on the radio. When the series finished, the broadcaster, without asking his informants, assembled the programmes into an attractively presented package and offered them for sale, mainly to libraries and educational establishments, at €3000.00 a set. Probably the most poignant example of a singer not being appreciated for his contribution to traditional music was that of Traveller John Reilly, arguably one of the most important figures in the field of ballads in recent history. John was found by a collector in a poor state of health due to the conditions he was living under. Having recorded a number of extremely good and rare ballads from John, the collector decided to try and raise some money for him by getting him a few bookings at clubs - several of these jumped at the chance. The leading Irish music organisation (at the time) Comhaltas Ceoltóiri Eireann was informed of John's situation and importance and asked to book him at their premises in Monkstown, Dublin - they refused, saying that John wasn't 'Sean Nós' (old style). John died of malnutrition in a derelict house in Boyle, Co. Roscommon not long after. His saga didn't end there. After John's death, the collector decided to devote the proceeds of any recordings of John used commercially to a school for Traveller children, but trustingly, sent some of these recordings to Peter Kennedy for his opinion. The recordings were immediately put into Kennedy's catalogue and remained there for sale in spite of requests to withdraw them. Neither the collector nor the Traveller children ever saw a penny from the sales. The sting in the tail of John Reilly's story was that after a well known revival singer recorded the best known of John's ballads, the extremely rare 'The Maid and the Palmer' (Well Below The Valley – Child 21), for which John was the only oral source, the 'copyright' of this made its way into the hands of the highly successful middle-of-the-road musician Phil Coulter. On a lighter note – Harry Cox was once booked at The Singers Club (I wasn't there, but my wife was). When he started to sing he was obviously uncomfortable and wasn't singing well at all. After the second song he turned his back on the audience, spat his new false teeth into a handkerchief, put them in his pocket and proceeded to sing wonderfully for the rest of the night. I have been perhaps unfair to list the problems raised by introducing traditional singers to the revival, many of them took to the clubs like ducks to water and became established performers there, and by and large, they were treated well. Only a very small percentage of them ever visited clubs anyway (I'll show you mine cap'n if you'll show me yours!). Most of the problems occurred because of thoughtlessness and insensitivity rather than intentional bad behaviour on the part of us folkies. I have only known one occasion in which elderly singers were treated badly deliberately. A reviewer who I had upset (by criticising his mentor) decided to get his revenge by savaging an album of field singers, mainly concentrating on our notes, but also directly insulting several of the singers, and ignoring all of the others (the songs were not discussed at all). In fairness to the reviewer, I don't believe he targeted the singers deliberately; they were merely 'collateral damage' as Condoleeza Rice so quaintly and delicately put it. As the reviewer's subject wasn't really traditional song (or music), he was unable to do any real damage (the album is a best seller in field recording terms and is now coming to the end of its third pressing), but the experience tends to leave a sour taste in the mouth and makes you think twice about making your fieldwork widely available where it can be got at by such people. Other than this sordid episode, my memories of seeing traditional singers perform at clubs have nearly always been good ones and I have felt privileged to have 'been there'. One of the most memorable nights we have ever spent was when we took a singer/storyteller and two musicians to Cecil Sharp House where they entertained a roomful of people, singing, telling storys, playing and reminiscing – all thanks to malcolm taylor's efforts. I do think it unfair to suggest, as has been suggested, that we can judge the performance of traditional singers the way we would judge that of younger, more street (or club) -wise revival performers, and I believe without question that we have received far morefrom the tradition than we have given – we wouldn't have had anything to sing without the singers' generosity. Jim Carroll PS Having god-awful computer problems so can't respond to oreder Cap'n |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: Leadfingers Date: 07 Jul 07 - 09:41 AM Some Clubs (AND Festivals) have mistreated ALL sorts of performers in their time ! I have gone to Clubs as an 'Entertainer' and had the audience eating out of my hand , but the organiser wanted only Serious Traddy stuff - Equally , clubs like The Star in Guildford , Organisers were VERY Hospitable , but the Audiece ONLY wanted Traddy stuff ! IF you set yourself up as any kind of performer , you have to take it as it comes , and join the Union - They will at least help you get your just rewards for a Gig ! |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:20 AM yes, Icouldnt get it all in unfortunately. |
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