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BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated
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Subject: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: GUEST,Bostonboy Date: 06 Jul 07 - 04:52 PM An internal British army document examining 37 years of deployment in Northern Ireland contains the claim by one expert that it failed to defeat the IRA. The admission is contained in a discussion document released by the Ministry of Defence after a request under the Freedom of Information Act. The 100 page document analyses in detail the army's role over 37 years. It focuses on specific operations and gives an overview of its performance. The six-month study, covering the period 1968-2005, was prepared under the direction of the then chief of general staff, General Sir Mike Jackson. The document, obtained by the Pat Finucane Center, points to a number of mistakes, including internment and highlights what lessons have been learnt. It describes the IRA as "a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force", while loyalist paramilitaries and other republican groups are described as "little more than a collection of gangsters". It concedes for the first time that it did not win the battle against the IRA - but claims to have "shown the IRA that it could not achieve its ends through violence". In a statement, the Pat Finucane Center - a human rights group - said the document "betrays a profoundly colonial mindset towards the conflict here and those involved in it". "Loyalist violence and the links between loyalist paramilitaries and the state has been airbrushed out of this military history," it said. In a statement issued on Friday, an Army spokesman said: "This publication considers the high level general issues that might be applicable to any future counter-terrorist campaign that the British Armed Forces might have to undertake. "It is critically important to consider what was learned by those who served in Northern Ireland."
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Captain Ginger Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:00 PM And your point is? On this side of the water, Bostonboy, realism has kicked in and things are moving on. Now be off about your plastic paddywackery - only this time, do send your money to Bin Laden to carry on the good work. (By the way, it's Centre, not Center) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: George Papavgeris Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:30 PM You mention the most important lesson yourself, that ends are not achieved through violence. Learn from that, and study/subsidise war no more. Leave it at that. The corpse is buried. Necrophilia is frowned upon in the civilised world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Peace Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:32 PM Well said both CG and GP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: GUEST,Bostonboy Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:34 PM Yeah buddy, sounding a little sore there. There's one hell of a difference with Bin Laden and the Irish Republicans. Your ex prime minister Tony Blair admitted that. Yeah your sore. Good to see their intelligence acknowledged, something you failed to do for years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Peace Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:39 PM The 'troubles' are over, Bostonboy. Why are you trying to get them going again? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Riginslinger Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:44 PM It's been over before. Oliver Cromwell put a stop to it in 1650. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: George Papavgeris Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:48 PM Sounds to me like it's you who's sore, Bostonboy, though I cannot fathom why. Nobody claims victory in that conflict, rightly in my view. Victory is with the peacemakers, not the warmongers. Most of the world is happy with the peace accord. Except you, it seems. Why the bellyaching? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Peace Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:49 PM True. But the purpose of this thread is to do what? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: GUEST,Bostonboy. Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:49 PM Hey no, it's wonderful that the Irish Republicans have at last a voice in government. Recognition of the rights of Irish catholic's in the 1960's by Britain could have saved a lot of lives. It's wonderful there is no more bombs or killings there. It was a hell of a fight for both armies involved,pretty good to see the Brits admit these guys were a formidable force. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: George Papavgeris Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:50 PM That sounds like a couched warning, Riginslinger. Is that what you intended? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Peace Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:52 PM Hell. They admitted that when they sent in SAS. The British have never been unaware that they were fighting an organized group of people who had both skills and courage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Peace Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:52 PM Sorry, George. Last post was to Bostonboy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: George Papavgeris Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:56 PM I gathered that, Peace, thanks. Agree with your post, by the way. A raggle-taggle group they were not, otherwise the conflict would have been over long ago. Glad it's over now, though I suspect peace will have to be earned on a daily basis for some time to come. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: GUEST,Bostonboy Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:58 PM Well it's just so good to see both armies walking away now with respect of each other I guess. Still want to see Ireland united. My family came over in 1847 from County Cavan Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Peace Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:58 PM History lessons: The Viet Cong were never defeated. The Taliban were never defeated. The IRA were never defeated. Few peoples fighing for their homelands ever have been defeated. When you'd rather die than surrender, it can get seriously 'expensive' for a 'colonial' force. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Peace Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:00 PM My apologies to you, Bostonboy. I misunderstood. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: George Papavgeris Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:00 PM Amen to the first and second line. Respect for the third. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: George Papavgeris Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:00 PM I meant Bostonboy's lines, of course - we keep tripping over each other, Peace! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Peace Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:02 PM LOL I have to go for a bit. That should allow for things to 'straighten out'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: GUEST,Bostonboy Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:06 PM Have a great evening guys. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Peace Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:18 PM You too, Bostonboy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Riginslinger Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:22 PM "That sounds like a couched warning, Riginslinger. Is that what you intended?" Yeah, kind of. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Riginslinger Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:42 PM And then he came back in the form of George W. Bush. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:43 PM Well, he died in his bed actually. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Peace Date: 07 Jul 07 - 01:30 AM If he hadn't (died in his bed), he'd have been 349 this September 3. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:08 AM The IRA may not have been defeated, but after all the torture, hunger strikes, murders and bombings - there still isn't a united Ireland - so it was hardly a howling success. Surely the whole point is however determined the IRA was, there was never going to be a military solution to this problem. Whatever you feel the moral worth and military virtues of the repective sides - at some point those two sets of Irish folk are going to have to start getting on with each other . And there will be the solution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Megan L Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:17 AM Of course the truth is there are always those who will send money. there are always those who talk violence - just as long as they are far enough away for it never to touch them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Jul 07 - 02:15 PM How could the IRA be defeated in battle? They never fought one. They planted bombs, and ran away. They fired their guns from a safe distance, and pretended to be civillians. They could no more be defeated than crime could be stamped out. Their weakness was that they had no mandate. Their supporters were a minority of the minority Nationalist people. However violent they were, their aims could not be achieved in a democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: GUEST,Walter Mitty Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:04 PM I know a little district in Freecrow Co Cavan, Thread leader may be aware of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: GUEST,Bostonboy Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:16 PM Keith in Hertfordshire, It was a guerilla war. Read up how a guerilla war is fought. It's good to get the weapons out of action but bad that the English are staying. We have a city center monument to the 1840s famine, which forced millions of starving Irish to come and settle here in the United States. We will never forget our roots. It's true there are several organisations here which raised funds for the Republican movement.We supported the republican cause. No one asked us to send guns, that is a slur. If people from so many different backgrounds can live in peace here in the US, we should be able to see them live together in Ireland. Millions of American dollars is being invested in Northern Ireland, helping both communities. I live in South Boston, the heartland of the Irish community here, people were less than positive when they handed their guns in. I think now they see peace is working. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:26 PM Keith - nice to hear from you! the guys who hijacked a van and launched a mortar attack on Number 10 Downing Street were not operating 'at a safe distance'. Courage is not the prerogative of one side, or the other. I tend to think their aims were achieved in a democracy, the day that so many people voted for Bobby Sands. From then on, it was obvious that we (on the mainland) were being fed a load of bullshit by our media about Sinn Fein being a really isolated set of extremists - some isolation! Either way, this thread is probably the first time an IRA sympathiser has complimented a British army document for the brilliance of its insight. personally, the brilliance of British military intelligence is something I remain unconvinced about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: goatfell Date: 08 Jul 07 - 09:17 AM but they don't because Wales and Northern Ireland are both ruled by Asemblies, which means they can't call themselves governments, where as Scotland can, because in Northern Ireland and Wales they are not allowed to raise or lower the Tax system where in Scotland we can. but then who cares about the IRA I don't, or the PIRA or any other terrorist groups in Northern Ireland and that goes for the Loyalists as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Big Al Whittle Date: 08 Jul 07 - 12:24 PM as i recall the American version of living in peace together is 30 thousand people dying annually in gun related incidents. In many countries that would be seen as a nation at war with itself. Even at the height of 'the troubles' the IRA never aspired to have us living in peace - American style. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Jul 07 - 02:23 PM It was not bullshit that they were a minority of a minority, if not isolated extremists. SDLP took the majority of the Nationalist vote until the violence stopped. Only then did Sinn Fein become the majority Nationalist party. (And they did not do at all well in the Republic election.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Big Al Whittle Date: 08 Jul 07 - 02:31 PM All i'm saying is that when Bobby Sands won that election, there was a widespread feeling we were being duped, given the mushroom treatment (kept in the dark and fed bullshit). You would never have expected that 27 thousand people would vote for this man if you had been following the accounts on the BBC news. They had lied to us, big time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Jul 07 - 02:41 PM There had been Republican MPs before, so why the surprise? Bernadette Devlin. And I do not dispute the courage of the volunteers, just that you can not "defeat" an army that fights that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Big Al Whittle Date: 08 Jul 07 - 04:47 PM Well Bernadette Devlin was elected under the banner civil rights, which most people at the time, seemed to think was a sort of peacenik label Sinn Fein was not really open to that sort of misinterpretation. You can't defeat an enemy that fights that sort of fight, when a fair number of its supporters choose who is going to be the next American president. In quiet out of the way places, just such insurgents have met many a sticky end at the hands of the forces of the crown. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: goatfell Date: 09 Jul 07 - 03:35 AM mushroom |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Grab Date: 09 Jul 07 - 07:08 AM It's good to get the weapons out of action Amen to that... but bad that the English are staying. Are they? The British Army is moving out of NI. Or are you referring to the *existence* of NI? If so, I refer you to "self-determination" - the right of people to choose their own destiny. In 1930 there were more people in NI who chose to stay part of the UK than who didn't; that remains the case today. We have a city center monument to the 1840s famine, which forced millions of starving Irish to come and settle here in the United States. We will never forget our roots. Great. But that doesn't make you Irish, just an American of Irish descent. And for the original statement - well it's not really news, is it? As Keith said, the IRA were smart enough to realise that they couldn't fight one-on-one with the British Army, so they adopted the same shoot-and-run (or bomb-and-run) tactics that are currently serving the Iraqi insurgents so well. The recipe is: kill some of your enemy from hiding; then run and blend in with the civilian population. It ain't a fair fight, but war isn't. It's not cowardice either, because that's one thing you couldn't accuse the IRA of. Or not the IRA fighting the British Army in Ireland anyway - the bastards who put bombs in pubs and shopping centres to deliberately target civilians are another breed entirely. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: GUEST,PMB Date: 09 Jul 07 - 08:00 AM In 1930 there were more people in NI who chose to stay part of the UK than who didn't The troubles is, that there was a long tradition of gerrymandering in NI votes. Many parts which were included in NI (Armagh, Tyrone, Derry) had majorities in favour of joining the Free State, but were swamped by manipulation of the boundaries. This long standing injustice was one of the major causes that led to the civil rights movement- and the reaction by the NI police that led to the IRA involvement. BTW what happened in 1930? As far as I know, the only referendum on union with the Republic was in 1973, in which about 58% of the population voted to continue in the UK- though there was no option of adjusting the boundaries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Jul 07 - 11:57 AM I do not accept that it is british propaganda. It is a fact. However, no majority has the right to trample on the rights of a minority. I accept that the old Stormont government did that, and Britain was too slow to sweep that away. But sweep it away it did. I never said that no one voted for Sinn Fein, just that a minority of the Nationalists did so until the violence stopped. No minority has the right to impose its will by violence and intimidation. Neither the British government nor the British people want to be in Ireland. As soon as the majority shifts we are gone and good riddance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: GUEST Date: 09 Jul 07 - 01:20 PM Er, that guest was me . . . my cookie appears to have been munched. Anyway, we've debated this subject until we're blue in the face - at least we agree that no guns = good. stigWeard |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Big Al Whittle Date: 09 Jul 07 - 03:40 PM 'Oh no? They certainly did have a mandate, it's just not one you agree with. As WLD has suggested the election of Bobby Sands and other IRA volunteers to the Parliament at Westminster proves they worked with a very real mandate.' I don't think they had a mandate for some of the strokes they pulled. However the Sands election campaign proved they were far from being the embittered isolated minority, that we had been led to believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Army paper says IRA not defeated From: Stu Date: 10 Jul 07 - 06:10 AM My original post seems to have gone - WLD you obviously saw it! I guess it was deleted as it was just a guest post. I can't be arsed to type it all out again. |
