BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?

Subject: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 11:00 AM

I ran across this old slang expression in an old sailor-poet poem that I've just posted titled "Old Limejuicer." Here's how it appears in context:

Her skipper was a Blue Nose,
Her mate a Portygee; her second was a monkey on a stick; her boatswain me!

Now when I've checked this phrase out on Goggle I found several radically different definitions:

- something to do with a jocky riding with very short stirrups

- something to do with Thai food

- something to do with sexual intercourse

None of which seems to apply to a derogatory reference to a second mate on a tall-ship around the end of the 19th century.

So once again I invite the scholars here to expose their erudite knowledge.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 11:27 AM

That phrase, not new to me, immediately brings to my mind a toy, a jointed (I think of carved wood) and painted monkey, suspended from a string attached to a flexible stick.

Bouncing the stick up and down will make the monkey dance on a flat surface.

Thus, the mate (if this is the meaning) is a marionette, a figure with no will of its own, controlled by the stick maneuverer. Seems to me to fit with the quote you gave.

"Erudite"?? Well . . .

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 11:37 AM

I'm looking for details of an old wooden toy which was a Monkey on stick, and when you squeezed the handle the monkey shot up the stick and back down. It's a very early child's toy, and the fact that it is captive and repeats the same action every time makes me wonder if there's a connection.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: skipy
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 11:47 AM

http://www.infomotions.com/etexts/gutenberg/dirs/1/7/2/7/17277/17277.htm

Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 11:55 AM

something like this?

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 02:39 PM

Could be a pet monkey. Rather than a monkey on a leash and collar, some people use a stick attached to a collar so that the monkey can be kept at a distance if it becomes unruly or "otherwise".

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 02:43 PM

Hmmmm. A stick and collar are often used during training or familiarization with many animals. I wonder if there may be some inference that the "monkey" (ie, second) was unruly, untrainable, not to be trusted...... ???

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 04:37 PM

Well, it's entirely possible that the reference is a common child's toy of the period.

There was also the suggestion that it was rhyming slang, trolling through Goggle, but I can't imagine what it was rhyming slang for.

Whatever it meant, it wasn't a compliment.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 10:48 PM

Nothing in Lighter. But I vote with Uncle Dave O and John Giok-- someone who can't vary his reactions but always follows the rules.

The Oxford English Dictionary:
Monkey, 1c: Monkey Up (or On) a Stick- A toy consisting of a monkey attached to a stick so that it can be moved up or down it on a sliding ring.
1863 Tyneside Songs: "In these days he was a regular brick,
When he seld the monkies up the stick."

Meaning of 'brick' in Tyneside language? Dunno.

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 10:53 PM

A "brick" in that context means "a totally reliable person and an all-round good fellow" (solid as a brick, meaning you can be relied upon). Can't help you with the "monkey on the stick", but it sounds like a child's toy to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 09:03 AM

Q et al-

"...a toy, a jointed (I think of carved wood) and painted monkey, suspended from a string attached to a flexible stick. Bouncing the stick up and down will make the monkey dance on a flat surface. Thus, the mate (if this is the meaning) is a marionette, a figure with no will of its own, controlled by the stick maneuverer."

"someone who can't vary his reactions but always follows the rules"

This all makes sense to me, ignoring how this phrase has evolved in meaning since the 1890's.

Thanks!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: Gedpipes
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 11:22 AM

brick
meaning 'solid' gadgy/bloke
i.e dependable etc
like anyone from Middlesbrough really I suppose

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: HouseCat
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 11:26 AM

Had to laugh over this one. Poor TomCat has, in the past, referred to himself as a "monkey on a stick" when speaking in terms of our marriage. I am REALLY all sweetness and light, don't believe him.
HC

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:17 PM

That explains it: the second mate was a married man ...

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 02:57 PM

It could also be a racial epithet, which in the day were much more commonly used than now.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 03:46 PM

That's what I was thinking, but I didn't want to be the one to say it, because it is, of course, so distasteful ... I think it may be a combination of a plain old racial epithet and the meaning of a puppet given above - so, someone of a darker race who is a classic 'yes-man', 'company-man', 'brown-nose', 'suck-up', etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 03:48 PM

Yeah, and it could be another backhanded swipe at chimps! We ain't monkeys, and we don't dance on a stick for nobody.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 06:38 PM

Why has someone have to purport to see a racial slur in any expression they do not understand?
The initial question was quite adequately answered above by Giok and by Uncle DaveO, supported by a reference from the Oxford English Dictionary.

Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 07:40 PM

Was it Sandy Shaw's follow up to Puppet on a String?

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 08:43 PM

I, for one, do not "purport to see a racial slur in any expression [I] do not understand". In the instance of this expression, however, I don't see how you can avoid at least the possibility of a racial slur, if you're at all conversant with 19th & early 20th century slang and sea songs. Note that the Oxford does NOT (apparently) give a definition of the expression as a metaphor for any type of person, and so is not conclusive, as far as this discussion goes.

The fact that the question was answered adequately does not, in this instance, mean it was necessarily answered correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 10:52 PM

Black second mates on sailing ships in the 1890's were extremely rare, in the context of when the poem was composed, and it was composed by a sailor-poet. That's why I'm satisified with Q, Giok and Uncle Dave's explanation.

Now I did say "rare" not "non-existent" (before someone else flies off the handle). There were even Black whaling captains, some with all black crews, in the 1820's as attested to in log books of the period. Barry Finn sings a great ballad commemorating one such captain, a Captain Boston.

That's not to say that the phrase in a different situation or at a later time didn't have a racial slur element, or a sexual one as I've mentioned above, and evidently it now has a culinary reference to Thai sateed food. Whatever!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 06:03 AM

isnt it cockney rhyme for your prick?

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 07:10 AM

I've never heard it ibo, but I think we should consider its inclusion for the sake of more colourful language. I can just imagine Dick Van Dyke singing:-

Ho!Its a jolly 'oliday wiv Mary
When she does me favourite trick
Corblimey - how it feels
wiv a plate of jellied eels
And she's playin' wiv me monkey on a stick!

But then my imagination is well....

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: The Walrus
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 07:28 AM

"...I've never heard it ibo, but I think we should consider its inclusion for the sake of more colourful language. I can just imagine Dick Van Dyke singing..."
I have great diffictly imagining Dick van Dyke singing (or at least, singing in anything even resembling cockney accent).

W

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 08:29 AM

It was a reference to his role in Mary Poppins. he was a singing cockney chimney sweep, he sang Chim chimanee and its a jolly holiday with Mary.

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 08:47 AM

LOL

One learns from Mudcat despite all attempts to resist!

Of course now I have to forget something, having little file space left in me wee brain...

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 09:13 AM

Or was it "chim, chim-pan-zee"? I think we might be onto something here, boys ...

Subject: RE: BS: Slang: Monkey on a Stick?
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 10:38 AM

chimpanzee chimpanzee chimpan zaree
my monkey on a stick hangs to my knee