Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts

Subject: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 09:29 AM

I have been approached to talk on the radio about the lack of folk music on BBC Radio especially local radio. This is a result of me complaining about the closing of the Radio Newcastle Folk Show.

One of the questions I am going to be asked is where I think folk music place should be on the radio dial.

I would be grateful for mudcatters opinions on this - I am doing the recording Monday (Rachel McShane of Bellowhead will be involved too I am given to understand).

Serious answers only.

Radio4 - argument would be most folkies are Radio4 listeners at a guess argument against, it is generally a speech based programme. Would notpick up casual listeners.

Radio3 In favour, specialist music programme area so ideal place. Against - classical music mainly - will probably be on late. Could new listeners find it there?

Radio2 Against already does one show MH - in favour, could be a more specialist show (like it used to be).

Local Radio In favour Stan Ambrose does a great show on Merseyside, (he is being involved also) Mike Peat also on Derby, etc.

Then there is the problem of needle time which will probably come up.

Anyway lets have a friendly discussion on here - arguments where it ought to be and say somewhere please otherwise I will look daft!!

Dave

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 09:37 AM

The BBC could do worse than reinstate Henry Ayrtons Real Music Show.

Radio 2 is the obvious choice to pull in the largest audience, as long as Mike Harding, John Leonard and Smooth Operations aren't involved, John Leonard in particular has done the reputation of folk music and honest broadcasting very severe damage.

eric

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 09:44 AM

Radio 4 seems to be hearable almost anywhere you go.
I would like to hear anything other than more Mike Harding
He has his place right enough but a different format/approach?
Good luck with the editing,do you get any say in how your comments are used in this?

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 09:45 AM

I doubt it!!

Dave

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: peregrina
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 09:45 AM

Folk music being the music of the folk, I'd like to hear it on all radio stations--2, 3 and 4--and in different formats, as music, for its historical and cultural interest, as human interest.--To some extent we already have that--but too little!

Newcastle and York local BBC radio have recently lost their folk programmes.

Late Junction (which often has some nice folk tracks of both current musicians and the real old timers in its eclectic mix) has gotten later and less.

Yet: Radio 4's slots about Folk, whether short bits about performers in Women's Hour, longer pieces (like the 'Singer not the Song' piece on Folk) or coverage of the cultural significance of folk songs seem to get positive reception and often get repeated on 'Pick of the Week'.

Seems to me that radio play of UK Folk Music has some of the same merits as eating local produce rather than stuff flown in from across the globe.

So here's my vote for more of it. And for the return of the local BBC folk shows. (Isn't the BBC supposed to serve communities?)

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 09:57 AM

Local Radio should be the ideal place to have folk programmes - coverage is local enough to include diary dates and give the actual folk clubs a plug where you can go and see live acts. Listen again facilities that are now commonplace over the internet means that anyone can listen wherever they are in the country if they so wish.

The problem is getting station managers who hate music (of any description) to subscribe to this. We've already lost Ali O'Brien, Ali Anderson and Henry Ayrton to changes in management who have their own agenda.

Can someone tell us more about "needle time" please? I know it's the amount of time allowed for broadcasting recorded music but is it applied to everything in copyright or certain labels and how much are you allowed - cost presumably comes into the equation - it always does!

Where are you doing this talk Dave?

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:04 AM

The Mike Harding show, and Smooth Operations involvement in folk on the radio, has been around long enough. Time to move on, surely.It has got too involved with commercial interests with little or nothing to do with folk. The general thrust of the programme now seems to miss the target, never mind the controversy of last year about "voting" in the Radio 2 competitions.
Radio 3 is probably the right place for specialist programmes.
Radio2 for a user-friendly hour a week, they can still find time for that.
Radio 4 needs more embedded bits, as now but more so. Folk music can fit into countryside, news, food, woman's hour, drama, social commentary etc etc.And Radio 4, perhaps more than 3 or 2, could I think find an hour or half an hour a week for actual British folk(of all ethnic groups) in the old sense(ie traditional performers, archive recordings etc).
Radio 1---probably not, unless people have actual hits like the Pogues and Dubliners used to, in which case play them!
Local stations should each have a folk programme of course, as well as scattering regional music throughout their output.
Well, that's a start. Vernacular art is the bedrock of all else, and for the BBC to ignore it as it does at present is plain stupid. They are quite happy with old farmhouses, old churches, old landscape, old recipes etc etc. So what's wrong with the peoples' music, which is as old as the hills and as young as a new-born baby.?

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:09 AM

Doing it over the telephone from home I guess.

AS far as I am aware and I can stand corrected on this one - "needle time" is what the BBC pays for playing music on the radio. If it is part of a review for example it can be free. Again - as I understand it - a programme will get allocated some needle time (cost) - the rest of the programme has to be made up of other things - reviews which are free of needle time charges and speech based stuff - thus making for a boring folk music programme.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:15 AM

Sorry Dave - I really meant to ask what's the programme that is involving you in their discussion? BBC national or local radio or other?

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:26 AM

Hey forgot to say there are some interesting Irish ,Scots and welsh folk progs on our cable Telly/Radio.
LOts of stuff about sheep shearing but some beautiful tunes and songs.
No zips on kilts!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:34 AM

I would be in favour of a bias towards live performance which is what folk music is all about- either on air or using pre-recorded session or concert recordings from the BBC Transcription Unit, but more interestingly - broadcasts from Folk Clubs, which might get some of them to pull their socks up. Just playing folk records is a waste of time, and talk can be equally boring if it goes on for too long.

As to where on BBC, well I suppose Radio 3 would be good, but heads and brick walls come to mind when squeezing in such a programme at a time when folks are not asleep!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: peregrina
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:34 AM

Another thought: how about just the way there's a national poetry day when they read aloud little bits of poetry all the time on radio 4, have
a traditional tune day when traditional tunes (excluding Barwick fair)
get played between shows, as part of continuity announcements and the like? This could extend across local radio, plus national.

And what about instead of voting for top philosopher (Melvyn Bragg's contest) favourite invention (today show) and all those others, a trad tune popularity contest?

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:43 AM

Greg has a good starting list list there.

My experience has been that where local "folk" programmes exist they are often a lot better in their coverage of the genre than Mike's show. That many of the local programmes are a couple of hours or longer helps that. Both Radio Wales and Radio Scotland have good programmes in that mold too. The "UK" channels could learn a lot by looking at those.

The other thing not to lose sight of is that the likes of Stuart Marconie and Mark Radcliffe, Johnnie Walker, Tom Robinson, Janice Long, Bob Harris and others all do quite a bit to slip elements of both the more "popular" and "serious" ends of the folk spectrum into their shows. You would be surprised just how much you hear sometimes. Even Terry Wogan more or less had a regular folk slot on the go during the peak of "Sethmania" last year. Of course the sort of folkie that never listens to Radio 2 or Radio 6 in case they might "get contaminated" and find they like "mainstream" stuff never hears that, but it is there.

As for Mike Harding's show, it really should get out more. One show from Cambridge, one show from Celtic Connections and one hour special live concert for whichever folkie has turned 60 or is flogging his "new" box set each year really is taking laziness to an extreme. So let's get a minidisk recorder or two onto the soundboard at a few more festivals and indeed a few live concerts. Most listeners won't be able to tell the difference with the sound from a full mobile studio, especially after it has been mangled by the BBC's DAB compression process. If Smooth Ops don't want to get out more and want to remain in their cowshed, then they should give up at least some of the contract to someone that does.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:46 AM

Couldn't agree more.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:47 AM

Radio Lincolnshire still has a 25 slot on wednesdays with Tom Lane.

I listen to the Mick Peat & lester Simpson (Folkwaves) Mondays and Tom Lane on Wednesdays on the Internet with headphones. That way my family don't keep on having a go at me.

I think the Internet is the way to go as you can listen to whatever you like.

e.g. Britfolk, Myspace, Youtube etc.

Here is one of my favourites, who says men can't multitask. Great respect for this person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuJt6lbt0_g

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:48 AM

Sorry 25 minute slot

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:49 AM

Like the idea of live at folk club type recordings.
Anyone tried it out?
I suppose it would be quite easy to record a"Star turn" in that way but what about using area mics on a part of a venue and getting the atmosphere of a singaround on air

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:15 PM

I suspect the problem with live broadcast is quality.

I have heard live programmes - the Watersons once did a live show from Sheffield, indeed so did Mike Harding. WIth the high production values that the BBC (IMHO rightly) has - it costs a lot of money. Even some live recordings on record - again a Waterson's one do not sound brilliant.

I guess that from clubs it can sound a bit dodgy - hard to get good quality. The carols from Grenoside at Xmas sounded awful, somebody who couldn't hold a tune for love nor money right next to the mike spoiled it. (It was me).

It's for a national showon Radio4. As soon as I get the go-ahead from the producer I will let you know. There are four people involved Me, Rachel, Stan and a Beeb person. I am hoping I get a low profile to be honest they know more than me. And anyway I can be a bit of a media tart.

I think the idea of broadcasting folk on the internet is good, indeed that is where I usually get my fix. But then if that's a success - why bother, making any radio programmes!!

And anyone reading this wants to chat to me indeed and rehearse the arguments at Warwick over a pint - I'll be available!!

But please carry on this is excellent!!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: IanC
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:25 PM

Dave

Quality of recordings from live venues didn't seem a problem when the BBC was recording live from folk clubs every week on "Folkweave" in the mid 70s.

That was a really great programme. Had a variety of stuff ... amateur performers, professional club "guests" live, recent records, special articles to go with the seasons or particular traditional singers ... everything.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:42 PM

I think the mix on the old Folkweave was often much better than anything achieved on M Harding.But whether it was either too eclectic or too esoteric for current tastes may also be true. Folkweave, for example, would slip in a 15 minute item on Thomas Hardy's fiddle tunes complete with band playing them. Now, if anyone suggested putting that into a Smoothops M Harding show someone in charge would blow a fuse, it would be considered inappropriate, as Radio 2 audiences are not meant to have heard of Thomas Hardy. Personally, I think it would be fine, but there you go.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:43 PM

In this context, Tom Robinson has various members and ex members of Fairport (including Ashley, Simon and RT) in the studio with him tomorrow talking about Liege & Lief on BBC 6 Music (Friday 27th) 7pm-9pm tomorrow. I suspect lots of "folk" folk won't have spotted that if they were looking only at "folk" shows.

Any "quality" argument made by the BBC on outside recordings needing a huge truck is IMO bollocks. There are several rather excellent folk live albums around at the moment that were simply recorded on minidisk straight off the board (just like a bootleg). The BBC mash everything up when they shove it out at only 128mbps on DAB on Mike's show anyway. That's one reason why Late Junction at 192mbps on Radio 3 sounds much better. FM will often sound better than both of course (with the right aerial).

That the BBC can afford to record every bloody prom in perfect quality for broadcast to an audience that is only about twice Mike Harding's and then claim "cost" on folk is one of life's little ironies (and something that should be rebalanced). However, you can get an 80% solution with a minidisk which most people can't tell the difference on. Now I'm sure Smooth Ops markup on sending Mike Harding off with a mini disk might not be quite so high as for sending an army with a truck, but that is no reason why it can't be done.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:45 PM

Indeed..........I was at some of them!!

I reckon now that there is much better equipment around so it might even be a lot less expensive. I would need to take some technical opinions on that.

I understand needle time is not longer an issue - the BBC simply pays a blanket fee to the PRS. (But it occurs to me - how does it then get distributed?)

Hey ho...........Excellent discussion so far.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: oggie
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:57 PM

For as long as we want "folk" shows then it will always be in whichever ghetto the BBC needs filling. If "folk music" is music for/of the folk then it should be across all the networks. Don't forget that all the "Peel Sessions" music comes from Radio 1 and I'd love to see it back there. There are complaints that young people are not coming into the folk world (and then complaints when they do) but if you want people to hear the music then it has to be out there in the mainstream music progamming and not in specialist shows.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:57 PM

Malc Stent used to be good on Radio Brum - very wide angle vision, and his ear to the ground on the club scene. I really don't know anybody else who has been a patch on Malc. He didn't always like the music he played - for he cast his net wider than his personal taste, but he was always respectful and friendly.

The rest of them are either chatting up stars or riding on hobby horses.

The thing about Malc was that he was part of the scene. Give most folksingers a BBC gig and its like the key to executive washroom and the VIP lounge all in one.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Jean in Devon
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 01:02 PM

Singer/Songwriter Johnny Coppin has an hour on a Sunday afternoon on Radio Gloucester. An hour not being long enough as it is an excellent programme.

Jean

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: stallion
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 01:14 PM

We tried a live folk session with Michael Brothwell but very little was usable because the audience nattered through all of it, and they were invited performers! However I think he had the right idea with a live set from local performers and a mixture of names and relatively unknowns on cd. I like the idea of a live folk club but not many people are up for keeping quiet for so long, having said that The Black Swan FC manages it...mmmmm.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,cobra
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 01:15 PM

First off, it is encouraging that you have been invited to talk on air as a consequence of a complaint. That tells me there may well be a receptive ear at the BBC for proper consideration of the "folk" agenda. Problem is, the definition of what constitutes "folk" would have to reflect a very broad church, with many styles and even more regional inputs.

Your invitation to appear shows, once more, that the squeaky wheel gets the oil. The reality is that there needs to be a bottom-up approach to this as well as top-down. In other words, get in touch with your local BBC viewers/ listeners forum and loby for programming which reflects local music, musicians and events. If that means taking a portable recorder into local venues, so be it. We are blessed with a wealth of local variety and enthusiasm around the place and there is no-one better to big this up than the people who keep music alive on the ground. Yes, mudcatters, this means you!

There is, indeed, some excellent input at national level from the likes of Maconie and Mark whatsisname (is it just me, or does his speech pattern remind anyone else of a young Bruce Forsyth?) and others. R3 and R4 also have their moments. But that is precisely ehat they are.... moments. I would be willing to bet that an upsurge of enthusiastic and informed local input would lead, in fairly short order, to some sort of debate on national programming. And that can only be good for music and the local "folk) arts overall.

Good luck with the discussion.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Silver Slug
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 01:20 PM

Two hours every Monday evening spent in the company of Mick Peat and Lester Simpson reawakened my interest in folk music. The content includes a lot of information, recordings and interviews with local bands, both old and new, as well as a number of weekly 'gig guides' for the counties to which Folk Waves is broadcast, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire etc. The range of music covered is wide, from old Music Hall recordings made by George Formby's dad, to the latest sounds from Martin Simpson and I find this part of the fun as you never quite know what to expect next.

I am convinced that the local radio format is best and helps to keep people in touch with what's happening in their area. It helps that Messrs. Peat and Simpson are superb presenters and much respected performers in their own right. I am now very concerned that Radio Derby might follow the local radio stations and pull the plug on a fantastic show.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 01:29 PM

To steal from another thread.
What about if they broadcast stuff at the wrong time of the year?
I would like a series that visited the right places at the right time and captured the music in its context.
Well dressing,Starry Gazey pie(I know its been done I heard it three times). all the stuff that I know little of and am never likely to see or hear in person.
I would like a prog that only had "new" or original materiel,I would like to hear recordings rescued from wax cylinders.
There are so many things I will never hear.
You go get em Dave anything you acheive will be ok in my book.
There have been odd progs with a dozen versions of the one song or tune also interesting.
I hope no one turns this inot an arguement about what Folk is!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 01:59 PM

Head over parapet time.
Firstly good luck Dave.
Don't hide your bush under a lightel though, get stuck in.
Yes, of course your pithy comments will end up on the floor...(actually they won't, tape is a banned substance in BH nowadays...you'll just end up as a deleted file on their playserver!!)
As far as Live recordings Clubs/Festivals etc, Yes, The heady days of Jim Lloyd and Folkweave, not to mention the BBC Concert Hall gigs, where, by and large excellent. Probably helped that Jim was married to Frances Line, the controller of the network!!
Yes, one can get good results from a FOH board (given a decent engineer) but, you really do have to do a submix as without audience mics it will sound very empty, but although you need them for the recording, the last thing you want is audience on the PA. ie. splitting the feeds from stage.
Hence the BBCs usage of mobile trucks, All sizes, White vans with a little digi desk up to Sound 1 with an SSL 9000 monster in it!!
The other way is a carry in, about a year before I left, I recorded the CBS Big band Carol concert at the Purcell rooms. (for Late Junction as it happens) Lots of flight cases and split racks in the green room. Took two of us from 8 in the morning to (a de-rig) midnight. Not cheap, and that wasn't even with a truck!!

You might think this a bit over the top, but remember, if you are at a gig, you can see as well as hear. On the Radio, you've lost that extra dimension.
How many of you have been to see a fantastic act live, subsequently bought a CD of the concert, and were dissappointed?

You can just about get away with it for a duo or trio, (acoustic) but, add any electric stuff in, not to mention drums, and you've got a real mess.

I should know, I learnt the hard way!!!

Anyway Dave, Knock'em dead. Let us know when it goes out

Cheers Mate Ralph (BBC retired)

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Dave Higham
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 02:28 PM

I know I'm speaking for a minority audience, but living (and working!) in S W France one of my great pleasures was listening to Radio 4 on the car radio going to and from work and at lunchtimes. Apart from the World Service Radio 4 is the only channel you can receive at this distance on LW. Even that had its frustrations. The BBC must think that all ex-pats would obviously prefer cricket if there's a test match on and so that's what I got. The interesting stuff was switched onto FM and I could spend my lunch-break listening to 2 blokes droning on about whether it might stop raining and "oh, look! here comes that dog again".....
Now I can 'listen again' on t'internet and I have to say that the best 2 folk programmes on radio are Mick and Lester's (knocks MH into a cocked hat) and Archie Fisher's (YMMV).
Sorry to go blethering on Dave, I know this doesn't help much.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:03 PM

Dave, can you set your sights just a bit higher than 'let's have an hour or so more of X or Y's poxy DJ programme? What's transmitted now on local radio, dwindling as it is, is scarcely either cutting edge or comprehensive. Most people could do far better themselves from their own CD collections.

The BBC is, supposedly, a Public Service Broadcaster and should be held to it. Norway, for example, has a 24-hour, dedicated national trad music channel:

NRK Nettradio

We should aim for this too, or better still, one each for the English regions.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:05 PM

Historically, the BBC are very conversative in their music output. From the mid-50s to the arrival of the Beatles they tried to ignore rock music; eventually, they were shamed into creating Radio One. They almost totally ignored the folk boom of the 60s/70s. I reckon that around 1970, over 200,000 folkies a week were attending folk clubs in the UK. Far more than ever attended classical music events. The tremendous world-wide interest in Irish folk music that followed in the wake of Riverdance seemed to pass the BBC by. I'm afraid attitudes haven't changed much at the BBC in over 60 years!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:15 PM

Hi Dave,

Well done for getting this gig - and the best of British!

My 6d; I'd agitate for one hour a week on EVERY local sataion, regardless. (I don't have the figures to hand but this is justified for cultural reasons if nothing else).

And I think a change in the MH format might help.

Their brief is to hang onto the country audience.

Fine.

I'd suggest keeping the mid-Atlantic style for the first 30 minutes, then gradually harden towards the pure drop (an extra half hour would help) taking the listeners along with them.

What was that old adage about educating?

It's only a matter of programming anyway:

5ust loose the three-song-plug, which has long had its day, and is anyway very unfair given the brevity of the slot, and try instead to reflect what's really happening out here.

As Kershaw said to me for RadioBritfok - quoting John Walters (also Peel's producer):

"Our job as broadcasters is not to give people what they want, it's to give them what they didn't KNOW they wanted."

Quote that Dave, if you say nowt else!

Tom

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:32 PM

Nice pipe dream...but it ain't ever going to happen.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:37 PM

John Walters told me that too when picking his brains for music in Children's Programmes. The little sods got all sorts they didn't know they wanted or would like (including a stepdancing champion on Blue Peter). Yes, I was the cruel one who inflicted that, AND the native American dancers, AND I got away with it.

When traditional music and culture is presented with pride and not embarrassment you'd be surprised at what you can get listeners and viewers to accept as 'normal', especially by relatively undamaged minds.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:39 PM

That reply above was to Tom.
And CMM, didn't you read what I already said about Radio Norway and its 24-hour PSB trad station?

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:40 PM

Right on your own doorstep WLD both Roy Harris and John Shaw, with all respect to "Folkwaves", did a cracking job presenting folk music to the East Midlands before,it appeared, that their services were no longer required. Hopefully Roy might join in here to tell of some of the trials and tribulations that he suffered in order to play folk music on his programme, as opposed to playing some station manager's preconceived idea of what folk music should be.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:44 PM

"keeping the mid-Atlantic style for the first 30 minutes, then gradually harden towards the pure drop "

... hey, you could call it "Country Meets Folk". It might catch on, you never know...

Lots of excellent suggestions on this thread already.

Mike Harding could be kept on as long as the BBC doesn't dictate policy to SmOps who then tell MH what to play - in fact if Mike had a free rein I supect he'd play a lot more proper folk music and enjoy it much more, as we all would.

It certainly is worth mentioning Norway's national 24-hour trad station. I doubt the BBC will do that but it is good for them and the public to know just how far behind they are. Sotland and Ireland also have huge amounts of traditional music on their regional radio - big regular programmes and not just at 2:30am...

A proper folk programme on every local radio station - essential. There is so much scope for announcements of local gigs, *totally* appropriate to local radio and the BBC needs to actively recruit good presenters for those programmes - there's plenty of suitable and willing talent!

Other than that, more on all the national channels. Radio 3 and 4 aren't doing too badly. Radio 3 is emphatically not just classsical music, and just as it has a long jazz sequence on Saturday late afternoons it could do the same with folk. Moving Late Junction back to its earlier time would help. There's a lot of folky stuff mixed in with things like the breakfast programme too, which used not to be the case. Valuable for exposing a new audience to it.

Perhaps Ralphie could come back as a part time folk programming consultant to the Beeb?

Anahata

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:44 PM

yes I did; and do you seriously think the BBC is ever going to follow suit? Not in this or anyother life time.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:54 PM

"We tried a live folk session with Michael Brothwell but very little was usable because the audience nattered through all of it, and they were invited performers!"

You must have just stuck a couple of mics in the middle of the room then, because if recorded from a mixing desk, the audience would be barely audible!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:23 PM

I suspect I am not going to have a great deal of time. We are probably talking about a ten minute slot for four people.

I am really grateful for your thoughts and a consensus seems to be emerging for which I am really very grateful.

What I shall probably say is something like this and I would now like your thoughts on this........

There is a place for traditional music on all networks. Woman's Hour has a policy of inviting successful women performers on and these have got taken up by "Pick of the Week" so it must be interesting listeners. Radio 2 has its "folk" slot and Radio 3 plays some traditional music on "Late Junction". Radio Four had that programme about "Bright Phoebus", "Singer not the Song" a series about young Scottish musicians and another about Irish music.

At the same time there is a resurgence of interest in traditional music, there are lots of young and astonishingly good performers, and this is not reflected in BBC output. The very audience producers seek - young people. I hear on regional broadcasting in Scotland and I hear and I hear it on regional broadcasting on N.Irish radio.

So here we have a new wave of interest in traditional music all over England that I do not see reflected on BBC radio - who are supposed to reflect their community. The place where you can find a lot of young folk musicians is Newcastle on the Performance Degree Course. The place where local radio has just shut down its local folk programme. (Which of course was the cause of my original complaint).

Thoughts please - and let me say you have all been wonderful so far. I am lucky to have such supportive comments.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:12 PM

Perfect.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: peregrina
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:26 PM

This sounds great--just the kind of persuasive almost incontrovertible comment that lets the recipient save face. It's encouraging to know that you are being given this chance, too.

More than 42 posts on this thread in such a short time.
Strength in numbers.
What if we all now also e-mailed local BBC and national BBC instead of just posting to each other?

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:26 PM

Folkiedave: of the pieces I made for Folkweave in the 70's/early 80's, no less than four made "Pick of the Week".I was very pleased about that, it showed that what we were doing was not to be ghettoised, but was felt worthy of a wider audience. That is surely what we should all be aiming for, making folk music interesting, on every station at any time of day.
    My suggestion, earlier, that the Mike Harding show has had its day: I would like to modify that. I meant what I said, insofar as I was talking about the Smoothops version of what to do with an hour of Mike Harding. I believe that format is long past its sell-by date, but that is not a criticism of Mike himself. He is an enthusiastic, knowledgable, masterly presenter, a splendid musician and a very funny man. My criticisms are totally reserved for what Smoothops make him do. If I had a free hand to make folk programmes for the BBC, I'd be very happy to have Mike present thewm. But they wouldn't end up sounding anything like what Radio 2 puts out now. They'd be very very exciting, for a start!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:34 PM

Hi I am not a great admirer of the MH show, though I don't mind MH - so long as he doesn't just toe the party line - which he does nowadays.

The Newcastle programme was closed because it needed geeing up and given a new lease of life. As was the Sheffield show, the Hull show, the York Show, the Manchester Show etc. Mike has to hang on to the listeners from the previous show. and the Radio 2 audience. Clearly it is believed that show does not need any changes - despite what many the listeners say. And despite what local radio says.

When Jim Lloyd was doing the Folk on Friday - Folk on Sunday, Folk on Tuesday, Folk on Wednesday programme and it did change that often - I wrote to the BBC and complained about the lack of folk music on Radio.

Local radio will be the place they said!!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 06:02 PM

Dave
My experience of going on the radio, is you never get chance to really say what you had thought of saying. So just go with an open mind and be ready to answer any question that may come up.
The presenter will probably have pre conceived questions that have no relation to what you wanted to say.

Anyway, good luck and plug what you can for what its worth. :-)

Enjoy Warwick.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:36 PM

Folk music was swept off local radio for a very good reason - folkies only tuned in for that particular hour and then switched off. My local radio station boss (Manchester) says that the schedule lacked continuity and coherence when it pigeon-holed particular interests. He promised to put folk, gardening, Irish, Asian, Polish, gay and lesbian stuff into the mainstream. Well that hasn't happened yet.

I can understand his point of view - he wants a loyal constituency that tunes in regularly. The frustrating thing for listeners is that there is nothing we can do about the BBC's impenetrable denseness in thinking we are a small group of beardy weirdies.

It will take something like the Classic FM model (the station that tapped into the classical music lovers who could not bear the patrician Radio 3,) to shake the almighty Radio 2 from its perch.

Because that's where folk, roots and traditional music belongs:   Eliza Carthy beside the superlative Amy Winehouse, the scottish trio Lau rubbing shoulders with Muse and the rest.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 02:32 AM

"I can understand his point of view - he wants a loyal constituency that tunes in regularly"

Since "Sounds of Folk" was taken off the "new look" Radio Manchester I haven't tuned in at all!

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: autolycus
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:27 AM

I'd be a little careful of criticising the Beeb the way you're proposing Dave, if only cos broadcasters are a sensitive bunch and might just get defensive.

And if they're going to ask thier questions irrespective of what you say, you might try saying what you intend to say rather than tamely answering their questions.

You might even think it worth while racing to your nearest bookshop or library looking for a book on how to handle the media - such do exist.

   Where there's a will there's a way.

   One argument you might try is that the Beeb forever worries about justifying the licence fee. I've long thought their way forward is to go for more programming that cannot be got anywhere else and that is of real quality. Put that way, you're on their side and gently prodding them all at the same time.

Despite that, the Beeb, one of my favourite things in the world, is not quality from first to last. Any folk music is higher quality thatn some of what the Beeb, and other broadcasters, seem happy with.

Jazz is on radio 3 in the afternoon and early evening (Saturdays), so I don't see a reason in principle therefore for folk not getting the same treatment.

Also the arguments about what the listeners expect and what they can take are real red herrings dressed up as bottom-line thoughts. The programmes earlier this year on telly, The Singing Estate and The Choir, both about very unlikely people showing they can take to music outside their experience given encouragement - both series showed another aspect of the debate. As does the Wagner story below.

In any case, part of the Beeb's reason for being is to lead and educate quite as much as to tickle the fickle public's fancy. Some broadcasters have either forgotten that, or are of a nervous disposition.



There could be any munber of ways of getting folk on radio 4 or 2, e.g. a 10-, or 12-, of ??-part history of the folk music tradition; the folk music of the British Isles county by county; the themes of folk music; its place in British Society; folk and town/country problem; folk and the industrial problem; folk music and the Jewish Problem; (I made that one up); 10 influential folk singers; the story of folk music collectors; WHAT IS FOLK MUSIC?; the future of folk music; the use of folk music in the year-long, kingdom-wide, cycle of folk traditions and customs.

Where there's a will, the imagination can readily follow.

As for chattering folk, I've just read elsewhere online about two little boys spotted at a performance of Wagner's Gotterdammerung in Glasgow who silent and attentive throughout. Let's learn from the young.   

Good luck,





      Ivor