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A waste of good mahogany
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Subject: A waste of good mahogany From: Wesley S Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:02 PM Last week at a garage sale we got a great deal on a 50 year old mahogany dining room table and chairs. This was one fine piece of mahogany. And all I can think of when I look at it is – this would make several fine guitars. As soon as I said it my wife's comment was – "I was waiting for you to say that". Anyway – I was showing the table to someone who tells me that she has a friend that just got back from the service in Iraq. He told here that when they receive shipments of supplies that the pallets are made of mahogany. And they use the wood to make bunk beds and chairs because it's so common. Could that possibly be true? I'd like to think if it's true that it's not the same grade that would be used to make a guitar. Haven't we been hearing that mahogany is starting to get hard to come by? On a related note – back in the 60's I gave my dad a folding knife by Browning for Father's day. I recently looked at the box and noticed the handle was made of Brazilian rosewood. And I could swear that I've read that a lot of Brazilian rosewood was sent to Japan and used for paneling in homes. It beats the heck out of knotty pine if you ask me. Does anyone know for sure? |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:51 PM There are several trees to which the name mahogany is applied, and yes, I have seen poorer types used in crating. Sections of my greenhouse were received in mahogany crates. The mahogany used in 19th c. furniture was often the Caribbean (West Indies), which is now rare. Honduras and other Central American mahogany from related species is less dense. These belong to the genus "Swietenia." 'African' mahogany ("Khaya"), is also a good hardwood; often used for sides and back of stringed instruments (Khaya ivorensis). Orher mahoganies from central and south America also are used. Something called 'Philippine mahogany' from Asian forests is really related to cedar, and several species of Asian hardwoods have been called mahogany but really belong to other genera or families. There are sites on the internet which discuss woods. A little here- www.mahoganymall.com. and here- www.the freedictionary.com/mahogany. Guitars of African mahogany- www.ellisguitars.com/KhayaMahogany.html, a site which discusses other woods used in guitars; rosewood, etc. It would be doubtful that mahogany used in crating would be of qualities satisfactory for quality stringed instruments. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Sorcha Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:59 PM And, mahogany house trim (windows, doors, etc) is among the cheapest to by and very soft. Softer and more absorbent than pine. As it's a medium to dark red, it takes stain quite differently. I'm sure it's not the same species as the tone wood mahogany. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:05 PM 'Rosewood' has been applied to several different woods; the old type in 18-19th c furniture, pianos, etc. is now very rare and has been replaced by cheaper hardwoods. Some is still used in stringed instruments. Again, much information on the internet. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Bru Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:09 PM A few years ago one of the members of our club (not folk club) was a managing director of a large tool importing business in Lancashire. We were always scrounging wood for the pot-belly stove in the clubroom, and he offered to drop off a wagon load of pallets and scap timber crates. A great deal of it was mahogany; there were 1 inch planks, eight foot long and ranging in width from 6 inches right up to 10 or 12 inches. It was as hard as hell to saw, and even got the better of an electric chain saw. Most of it went to members who thought they could find a use for it, and we were glad to get rid of it. It was quite crude; difficult to saw or plane, and hard work to use at all. We thought it might have been Peruvian Mahogany. Good luck to anybody trying to make a guitar of it. I do know somebody who once made an acoustic guitar from an old wardrobe. Mid 1960's. Still plays today |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: gnomad Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:11 PM Go back a couple of centuries for real waste of mahogany. A lot of it arrived in Britain as ballast-cargo in early 19th century ships, furniture makers bought it as a cheaper alternative to the walnut they had been using before. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: John Hardly Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:19 PM A worse waste of good mahogany? ...a few years ago, and still the best new J-45 I've played, had a quilted mahogany B&S ....and was stained so dark that the figure in teh wood wasn't even visible. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Cluin Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:22 PM Love the mahogany tone. Personally I prefer it over rosewood. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Bill D Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:29 PM As Q says, there's mahogany, MAHOGANY, and ***MAHOGANY***, and some is not useful as much more than pallets. Same for Rosewood. I have seen also, GOOD hardwoods used as pallets...my ex-bosses in a cabinet shop once got a pallet of Wengé (Millettia laurentii), an African hardwood much coveted for some things. One of the most coveted woods anywhere, but almost totally unavailable, is Cuban Mahogany. The island was practically stripped bare of it before laws were in place to save the remaining stocks. Rosewood is an immense marketing problem, as it is common for wholesalers to name any vaguely interesting brownish-red wood as "Antarctic Rosewood" or such...one of the perennial problems is "Bolivian" Rosewood ('Morado'...or Caviuna)..there is 'almost' no real Rosewood in Boliva...certainly not any of it is available. I have worked with African Mahogany (Khaya spp.)quite a bit...(in woodturning)...it is often striped when cut at certain angles, and very nice. The ONLY way to be sure of a wood's origin and true identity is to be able to pin the Latin name (genus/species) on it. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Cluin Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:33 PM There was the Taylor Pallet Guitar. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: maeve Date: 27 Jul 07 - 07:18 PM Bill D.- Thanks for that information on Cuban Mahogany. I have some of my grandfather's turned pieces made of Cuban mahogany, made when he worked there as an engineer. Do you happen to know the botanical name? Come to think of it, my dad saved two boxes full of Cuban cigar boxes, some quite old, that he said were mahogany and cedar. I'll have to take another look at them. maeve |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Jul 07 - 07:58 PM Swietenia mahogani Jacq. A synonym, Cedrela odorata. Used in the cigar boxes along with cedars. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Jul 07 - 08:00 PM Swietenia macrophylla is 'Honduras' mahogany. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Bill D Date: 27 Jul 07 - 08:03 PM Thanks, Q...you have it right. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Ebbie Date: 27 Jul 07 - 08:31 PM This may be a good moment to ask for comments on a certain wood. At the house museum where I lived for long, there is a harmonium, nicely cut and finished. (The base on which it sits is much different- different wood, different quality.) Anyway, the museum people have never identified the instrument wood. They had been calling it cherry but agreed that it was not likely so. At two different times, two men from the American south said that it is pecan. Might that be? Is anyone here familiar with pecan's qualities and uses? Bill D? |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: GUEST Date: 27 Jul 07 - 09:49 PM Luthier Merchantile International has the latin names in their wood descriptions. Ebbie: pecan is a hickory, but not as dense as the northern shagbark hickory. I have seen pecan paneling in a ballroom hallway of an old mansion. One reason why musical instrument wood is so expensive is that only in general it needs to be quarter-sawn, need to be large enough, and needs to be free of cracks, knots and other defects.
Thanks. -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Jul 07 - 10:14 PM A thought- could it be butternut? Often used in the old days. Cheaper (then) than mahogany or walnut. Look up the two woods in the internet and see which description fits. I have a couple of butternut pieces. The wood is denser than pecan. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Bill D Date: 27 Jul 07 - 11:45 PM I have turned a couple small pieces of Pecan. Q is right...can easily be mistaken without putting a sliver under a microscope... like this?>/a> |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 Jul 07 - 12:36 AM A lot of different woods (unstained) shown here. The link is to butternut. Pecan, etc. also shown. http://www.hearnehardwoods.com/xcart/manufacturers.php? manufactureid=11. hardwoods There are, or used to be, better illustrations, but I have lost the sites. The hardest to work I ever tried was ebony. I bought an antique ebony stationery box (traveling correspondence box) and the paper holder inside the lid was gone. I bought a small piece of the right size and shaped it to fit. Slow work! Wood so hard that power saws burn the wood and the stink! Hand work all the way. The craftsman who made the box would laugh at my poor attempt, but it works. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 Jul 07 - 12:39 AM Use the search box to the left for other woods than those on the main list. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: John Hardly Date: 28 Jul 07 - 07:25 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's often all it took. Just start up that Stryker saw, and within seconds of hearing the blade whine, even the biggest and toughest of the newbies hit the floor. Before the saw's blade even touched the body, the thought of what was to come was usually enough to turn legs to jello. Kay Scarpetta looked up from the body that lay stretched out on the table between them and caught Marino's eyes. They shared an "another one bites the dust" look before Marino bent down and hoisted yet another young detective-in-training to his feet. It was the rare one who ever made it through their first autopsy on their feet. Scarpetta returned to the body in front of her while Marino propped the young detective on a chair in the corner. The chair was a fixture in the autopsy room. This fainting thing was so routine and with the chair set just so in the corner, the dazed could remain there safely leaning where the walls met until he recovered sufficiently to hold himself up. "I noticed the neck, Doc" Marino said upon returning to the table. Without looking up, Scarpetta said, "Hey, you can be the M.E. and I'll sit on my ass in the coffee shop and eat the donuts, okay?" "Sarcasm becomes you, Doc. Anyone ever tell you that you're a beautiful broad when you're being snide?", Marino said. Neither of them meant anything by the banter. Their twenty year friendship, a bond formed over some pretty tough, extremely grim circumstances, made them confident in the other's friendship. The coarse talk was a way of dealing with it. Humor often is. "I noticed the ligature marks on the neck too" Scarpetta began again, this time more seriously. "Some capos cause finish damage when used carelessly, but they never make it actually dead." "Yeah. I was just noticing…." Marino said. It was just then that Scarpetta took the Stryker to the top. Marino had seen this so many times that he no longer felt like the poor sucker propped in the corner. Still, it's never easy to see a saw go through the top like that. He watched as Scarpetta peeled back the top wood and began her internal investigation. After a short while Sarpetta walked away from the table, removing her latex gloves and dropping them in the nearby sanitary container. She was shaking her head as she moved on toward the desk at which she filled out her reports. "So, what is it, Doc?" Marino asked. "Well, when I saw it was Norlin era, I assumed. It's no fun, but you still have to go in and find out for sure. The report has to be accurate." She began. "But my initial instinct was right. It's just another case of death by over-bracing". "Damn" sighed Marino. "And it had such good mahogany too. Damn shame, that." |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: maeve Date: 28 Jul 07 - 07:42 AM Q- Thank you! John Hardly- LOL! Ebbie- I have a harmonium made of rosewood. Do you know where the harmonium you mentioned was made? maeve |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Jul 07 - 12:37 PM I have an upright grand piano from 1885 that has been in the family since it was new. A Weber. It must have 1/4 inch of rosewood veneer on it. From back in the days when they didn't have to shave it so thin due to diminishing supplies. (It also has a birdseye maple sounding board. Gorgeous piece of woodwork as well as instrument. I can't afford to have it refurbished right now, but I will one of these days). SRS |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Bill D Date: 28 Jul 07 - 12:52 PM a couple other images of Pecan can be found here under the name Carya Illimoensis, along with hundreds of others. (They provide samples for collectors, as well as veneer) as far as 'hard', I find Ebony more nasty than hard. It produces black dust that is worse than powdered charcoal. It IS hard, but fortunately, I never have to saw large pieces, and on a lathe, the harder the better for clean cuts and sanding. I often work with Lignumvitae, which is about the densest well-known wood available, but on a lathe, it is a delight. I also sometimes do Snakewood from Guyana and Desert Ironwood and Vauquelinia california (sometimes called "Arizona Rosewood") from Arizona, which are sort of off the scale. But I do agree with Q that Ebony is SO dense that is it quite hard to saw or work with small tools....one the most unpleasant woods to work. But they are a challenge worth the trouble.. There....aren't you glad you asked about Pecan? *grin* |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Cluin Date: 31 Jul 07 - 09:15 PM Now you did it! Bill D has got wood. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: GUEST,PMB Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:27 AM The hardwood used for crating, pallets and so on is almost certainly the result of the illegal logging that is destroying forests and habitats in South America, Africa (especially the Congo) and the far East. It's a bit late to do anything about it once it's on the scrap pile though. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: GUEST,HSA Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:39 AM Two unrelated thoughts a propos of the above: - there was a chap in Newcastle who worked for Rediffusion (an early cable TV company in the 1980s.) He made mandolas out of the wooden cases of the old TV sets - for those of us who can remember when they weren't made of plastic!! They played but not so easily. - I have been on a journey to learn how to identify different woods, starting with a conservation course on the same. Believe me when it comes to tropical hardwoods it's a very long journey and many species can only be postively identified using a microscope. However there are one or two good books around and as mentioned above some good Internet sources. And I guess the fact that there are several woods in the "Mahogany" family and in the "Rosewood family" means that instruments described as "Mahogany" could be from a number of different trees. On old intruments it's perhaps a bit easier to tell as wood was being imported from different sources at different times. So as someone said above, Cuban mahogany was almost logged out by the end of the 18th Century so anything later than this would be almost certainly not Cuban mahogany. Fasctinating subject though! Helen |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: maeve Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:48 AM What might be done with the mahogany and cedar of Cuban cigar boxes from the early 1920s-40s? maeve |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: GUEST,Mooh in limbo Date: 01 Aug 07 - 08:42 AM Lots of guitars have been a waste of good mahogany, for most that are lousy it's for reasons other than the wood. We gotta plant more trees! (...and elect governments who give a rat's ass about such things.) Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Cap't Bob Date: 01 Aug 07 - 10:23 AM The last concert ukulele I made was constructed from salvaged wood. I build the body and neck (with the exception of the sound board) using mahogany form a 24ft sailboat that was made back in the 1940's and had seen better days. The boat had quite a history and was at one time grounded in high winds near Put in Bay on Lake Erie. The mahogany seems to be different from that found on most instruments in that the color changes depending upon direction of light. The sound board came from the siding taken from a Lavette Kit House. These houses were sold as kits during the 40's - 60's. The siding was all quarter sawn western red cedar. The uke has a great sound and mighty good looking as well. I gave it as a gift to the friend that gave me a whole bunch of the red cedar siding. The only problem dealing with the cedar siding was removing the paint which was the old lead base type. I cut the paint off using a band saw rather than trying to remove it by sanding. Cap't Bob |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Willie-O Date: 01 Aug 07 - 11:55 AM I used to collect those mahogany (etc) pallets, pull the nails or just cut off the ends, plane the boards (carefully!) and make miniature shelving units out of them. Perfect for cassettes--still have some on my walls. I believe that many of the pallets and crates were used to ship snowmobiles in--naturally, they are mostly manufactured in the Far East. (OK, that's ironic). A lot of the wood was light lauan mahogany, but some of it is darker and who knows what--as Helen points out, there are a million species of tropical hardwood. Just because mahogany grows in the tropics does not make it an endangered species--some varieties are and many aren't. It's the ecosystem that's in peril rather than any particular branch. W-O |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Bill D Date: 01 Aug 07 - 12:20 PM ..."there are a million species of tropical hardwood" *grin*...only a few tens of thousands (I visited there 2 years ago. They estimate that about half of species large enough to provide a ½X3"X6" smaple have been identified...meaning that there are 'roughly' 100,000 woody plants in the world.) Note: these folks will identify several samples a year for US citizens, according to rules listed, and attempt to do so for others... with lower priority) |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:35 PM maeve- the old cigar boxes are collectable; leave them as they are, esp. if the colorful lithographs on the top are in good condition. Some of the special order cigars (my grandfather ordered them direct) came in boxes that lacked the fancy labels and were rather well-made. My grandmother sometimes decorated, varnished and/or modified them as dresser boxes, etc. to hold small items. Somewhere we have one that is full of old buttons (Another collectable item- look at them on EBay, etc.). Guest PMB is not entirely correct. Although it might be partly true today, the hardwoods used in crating are just what was and is available. Not all of it went to the scrap heap. I have seen some of the smaller crates used as coffee tables, etc. that were well over 100 years old. I have also seen a few pieces, still with traces of labels, used as backs or bottoms of old cheap cabinets made for the poorer market. And there are people like Willie-O searching out the stores receiving goods in these crates and putting the wood to good use. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: pdq Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:33 PM Philippine mahogany is quite variable and, as pointed out several times already, is not a true mahohany. Here is some info pieced togethr from several sources: "The lauan genus (Shorea) contains about 70 species and their woods are extremely variable. Some are as soft as basswood while others are harder than white oak. Color may also vary from ash gray to dark reddish brown. The lumber industry markets these woods by their appearance and density characteristics rather than by species. The denser, dark red merantis have better decay resistance and are relatively stable. Most of the lauans are coarse textured and have poor decay resistance. Some have high silica content and may dull cutters, while others are exceptionally gummy. Lauan is widely sold around the world as 'Philippine mahogany', including its use for plywood face veneers. It is one of the world's most popular timbers. Shorea genus is reported to be rather extensive, from India and Sri Lanka in the west and throughout Burma and several countries in Southeast Asia, and up to the Philippines in the east. The forests of Borneo, Sumatra, and the Malay Peninsula are reported to contain the highest concentration of species in the genus. Shorea is reported to be the major source of timber in Southeast Asia. They are plentiful, and supplies are reported to be universally available, especially in the form of veneers. This popular wood is reported to be typically priced in the inexpensive range. Many species in the Shorea genus are also reported to be a source of other economically important non-timber products. Seeds of some species yield fat which is used in the manufacture of chocolate. Others produce nuts, the most common of which is the illipe nuts of commerce produced by S. gysbertisiana . The nuts yield a fat which is similar to cocoa-butter in some of its properties. Shorea trees are also reported to be tapped for oleo-resin, and typical dammar is obtained from S. wiesneri which grows in Java and Sumatra. The tree of S. robusta is reported to produce dammar which is used as a disinfectant and as incense in religious ceremonies in India. Other non-timber products from Shorea are reported to include tannin and fibers. Members of a similar but smaller genus Parashorea are also harvested for their wood." |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Bill D Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:02 PM PDQ...I went to 'view source' to see your code, and I have to explain again that you CONSISTENTLY fail to close your HTML brackets. You MUST put the 'i' or 'b' in the trailing part, or it doesn't work. this is italic this doesn't work <i>this is italic</i> <i>this doesn't work</> |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Bill D Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:07 PM that is, the 2nd form does not work to cancel the italics, as can be seen. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:18 PM To get really pedantic, Shorea belongs ot Order Ochnales, Family Dipterocarpaceae. Genera in that Family include Dipterocarpus, Vatica, Shorea, Hopea, Doona, Vateria, Monotes, Marquesia, etc., (following the classical classification of Bentham and Hooker, and Engler and Prantl). Shorea robusta and other Shorea spp. are the major timber trees; some from Hopea. Shorea robusta is also called the Sal or Saul tree. Dammar comes from Vateria indica L., of South India. I have used it to varnish oils. Windsor & Newton label it as poisonous (Hmmm, I wondered what happened to my wife. Accidentally spilt some in her Fundador). (Botanical data from J. Hutchinson, "The Families of Flowering Plants," Oxford Press (Revised 1973, Stearn and Verdcourt). |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: pdq Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:26 PM Dear Bill Day: My post looks fine. Just as I intended it to look. If you have a problem with the content, that is fair. How I close my brackets should be no concern of yours. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Bill D Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:05 PM right-o, fine, ok... |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:29 PM Yeah, Bill. Press on, as they say. Italics are eye-boggling on Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: maeve Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:30 PM Thanks, Q, I have put aside those that are in reasonably good condition and have decorative labels mostly intact. That leaves many others, including some that my dad took apart for the wood. He used some for careful furniture repairs, but there are many more pieces left and many more ordinary cedar boxes without collectible value of which I'd like to make good use. maeve |
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Subject: RE: A waste of good mahogany From: oggie Date: 02 Aug 07 - 10:30 AM When they built North Hull Estate after WW2 wood was in short supply so they used owt they could get their hands on that came through the docks, some of it as ballast or packaging. They weren't fussy. Late seventies the council decicided to replace all doors and windows with softwood. Mate of mine who was also a woodturner described it as wanton vandalism. Most of the frames were mahogany or various rosewoods, he collected enough scrap wood to keep him and his turning friends going for years but most was just burnt. There were decades of use left in them. The doorframe of my garage is three pieces of iroko from the same source and it's fine nigh on 30 years later. The softwood replacements were replaces under a decade later. All the best Steve |
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