Is Eliza Carthy really that good?

Subject: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Kampervan
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:16 AM

O.K.
This may seem like heresy. But, I've heard and seen E C a few times now and I don't think that she's that good.

Now I love Norma Waterson and I've thought that Martin Carthy was a god from the first time I saw him perform in the late sixties. But try as I might, I just think that their sprog is an o.k. singer who just happened to get a leg up.

This might be the folk equivalent of saying that I always hated Princess Di. (which I did, having met her once in 1983). And I hate to upset her fab parents, but it just gets a bit tedious when her name is mentioned in reverential tones and she ponces around like a prima donna, holding court where lesser mortals approach at their peril.

Am I alone?

K/van

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:20 AM

One man's meat................
Whether someone is 'good' or not is a matter of personal preference.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:23 AM

Yes

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:27 AM

She makes music, she's a bandleader who makes employment for other musicians - lighten up! she's not a serial killer of something. All in all - a force for good. How good is that THAT good?

That's better than a lot of people.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: treewind
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:35 AM

Well, I don't share your exaggerated views about her dad either.

I think she's got more talent and a better voice than some other popular folk icons that are around these days, and she's also been successful in her declared mission to raise the profile of English traditional music in the world outside of the folk scene.
Doubtless her fortunate start in life has enabled her to reach a bigger audience than other equally talented musicians and singers, but she's worthy of it.

(she's probably going to read this; we've had postings on mudcat from "GUEST, ec" before)

Anahata

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:36 AM

What utter crap.
"Good' is not a matter of personal preference,
An artist is 'good' or not entirely regardless of whether any individual 'likes' what they do.
If you prefer Mississipi Delta blues, Tuareg or Indian classical, fair enough.
'Good' means that their repertoire, performance and presentation is excellent.
OK, I 'like' Eliza Carthy but don't have to in order to recognise that her interpretations, collaborations, songwriting, playing for trad dancing, singing, fiddling, research, arrangement, just playing with the family or her friends or else headlining a festival is at the forefront of raising the profile of English trad among the musics of the world.
Eliza has never in her life ponced around 'like a prima donna'.
I could tell you who does, but this is not the place.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:44 AM

I think EC is excellent, and (happily) sounding more and more like her mother, vocally. I think her fiddle playing is excellent too. I'm not so sure about her "little guitar".

MC is God. And a nice bloke as well.

NW is a joy to listen to.

But I take all the above back when they do American style material, as in "Blue Murder".

Diana Spencer was a stupid spoilt brat psycho manipulative sociopath drama queen who got over 10 million quid for dropping two sprogs.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:44 AM

Diane - I would think those that ponce around like a prima donna are likely to be those with little talent so they have to compensate somehow.

Hasn't there been another thread recently inciting people to make unhelpful and insulting comments about Eliza? Is there a subtext here?

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:03 PM

Yes there has, neovo. I was just thinking "for heaven's sake - not this again."

OP, do a search on Eliza's name. All of your points have been covered ad nauseam very recently. Personally, i can't be arsed to go through the agument again, except to say

"she ponces around like a prima donna, holding court where lesser mortals approach at their peril."

is a load of crap. It's also personal abuse that has nothing to do with her talents, therefore has no place this discussion. You want to play cult of personality ("Martin Carthy is a god" - yawn), go start up some folk version of Heat.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Greg B
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:07 PM

I quite enjoyed this:

I just hear in her music so much of what I've loved for the last
several decades, from her mum and dad to Steeleye, Fairport,
Albion Band, the Morris On band, Silly Wizard, the Tannies.

She's not "derivative;" she's "brewed and steeped."

And she still sounds delightfully Yorkshire when she speaks.

Would love to see/hear her parents in that mix.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Kampervan
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:10 PM

Well that seems to have struck a chord!!

I agree that ones mans meat is... etc; but I just don't think that she's as good as her PR company paints her.

I think that she's an ok performer who would have done ok on the club scene, but she was 'presented at court' and the marketing took over from there.

When tremendous singers such as Sheila Stewart, Jock Duncan, Rosie Stewart, Roisin White etc etc are very very good but hardly ever get a mention, it seems wrong that Ms Carthy should achieve prominence primarily cos of her Mum and Dad.


O.K. it's just my opinion.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:14 PM

God, this is boring.

GO READ THE OTHER THREAD!!

As I say, all of your points have been argued and addressed only a few weeks ago.

Christ, that's not you again Lizzie, is it?

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Kampervan
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:17 PM

Sorry to be boring!! Which other thread? I obviously missed it.

Sincerest apologies for boring you Ruth (if I may be so bold).

K/van

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:18 PM

I am not that keen on Norma's singing oddly enough but do like the work of both Eliza and her Dad. I would never go as far as to say any of them were good or bad though. Diane makes the point that good or bad should not be a matter of personal taste but, to a certain extent, it has to be a matter of personal perception. For example, no matter how good or bad a contemporary jazz piece is I don't think I could ever understand the nuances enough to qualify it as good or bad. Ditto for most operatic arias.

I do however like some pieces that I know many would class as bad. Ever heard early Incredible string band stuff? I think it is wonderful but many friends, even those from the the 'folk scene' (whatever that is!) cannot stand it. Ditto with some Captain Beefheart numbers.

You pays your money and takes your chance I suppose. I hope I will never insult anyone elses music purposely and I wish people would have the same consideration for mine. I will never agree to anyone saying that a whole genre of music is bad or good though. Nor will I accept anyones definition of good or bad being any better or worse than mine!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:20 PM

Personally I've never seen the point of any posts that only exist to knock a performer or their music. What's so great about not liking something or someone? I'm not proud of not liking butterbeans, and I don't need to rally anyone else to my opinion.
If you don't like someone, here's a thought - don't go to their gigs and don't feel obliged to buy their albums. Would that work, do you think?

Anne

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:21 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=103200

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:25 PM

Good grief, you surely don't think madlizziecornish has heard of Sheila Stewart, Jock Duncan, Rosie Stewart or Roisin White? Though I suppose she could have cut'n'pasted the names from somewhere.

Why ever compare Eliza with trad Irish singers? What's the sense?

No, she doesn't have a PR company (unless you're talking about Cousin Ollie, hehe)

First time I ever saw her play was sitting on a wall on the seafront. First time I saw her play for money was at a gig in Newcastle when she and Nancy Kerr were about 16. No, their mums didn't get them the gig, though they thought Norma and Sandra must have told me to come. VERY primadonnerish.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:26 PM

Doesn't she look like her Mum?
G

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:29 PM

More all the time.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:33 PM

"I would never go as far as to say any of them were good or bad though. Diane makes the point that good or bad should not be a matter of personal taste but, to a certain extent, it has to be a matter of personal perception."

Thanks Dave, excellently put. I think that's what I was trying to say earlier, but not very successfully! :-)

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:43 PM

this is a bit like asking is caviar that good,beauty is in the eye of the beholder,so is good,or excellent,or mediocre.
I havent seen ELIZA for many years ,but last time,I saw her I thought she was VERY talented,a good musician and a good singer,OF course that doesnt mean there are not other talented people around,but they are different,we are all different.,it is silly to compare her to Rosie Stewart,oR Fred Jordan ,KateRusby,Margaret Barry or anyone else.
Personally if I had been Martin Carthys daughter,I would have used all his contacts to promote myself,as I think most people would.
I am sure, Eliza,deserves every ounce of her success and I am sure she would have been successful if she had been Eliza Bloggs.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Nick
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:45 PM

I'd go and see and enjoy Eliza anytime but wouldn't rush to see her mum or dad (even though I can see he is a very fine guitarist etc etc).

I think she plays and sings with passion and verve and I think she exudes a lot of fun and energy when she plays that makes me smile - as well as having a fine singing voice.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: KeithofChester
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:08 PM

Sorry to be boring!! Which other thread? I obviously missed it.

Kampervan, there is this thread on the BBC Board too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F2142825?thread=4337534

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:36 PM

There was a broadcast from BBC Radio Scotland on 22/1/1997 of part of the Waterson Carthy set from Celtic Connections, the first set of tunes being The Grand March and Battle of Prague, played by Eliza and Martin Carthy. Bearing in mind this was 10 years ago, and I have no idea of the colour of her hair at that time, the playing was, in terms of English folky fiddle playing ............superb, and has continued to be so in whatever style she cares to play. The whole argument here is rather silly. Some people are just never satisfied and so typically Englishly envious of success.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:40 PM

There you go Eliza! You have have the polo set with you to a man.

Say three hail Marys, two slip jigs and a chukka!

All is forgiven.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:43 PM

Personally I don't care if she looks like her mother or not, it's her very obvious talent that matters and nothing else. Bashing people achieves absolutely nothing, well, I mean, apart from getting yourself all worked up and possibly giving yourself an ulcer.
Eliza Carthy, keep it up, some of us love what you're doing.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:48 PM

Don't listen to him, he's crazy........!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:56 PM

Can't say I've seen any other recorded artists trekking through the mud and rain in January to play for traditional longsword.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:56 PM

LOL Al!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:09 PM

"Can't say I've seen any other recorded artists trekking through the mud and rain in January to play for traditional longsword."

exactly!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:17 PM

But she's not quite as good as Phil Beer!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:25 PM

"But she's not quite as good as Phil Beer!!!!!!!!!!!! "

she's not as good as Dave Swarbrick either, but that, only because Beer and Swarbrick have been in the business longer. Give her time, give her time.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Greg B
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:37 PM

She should, however, kidnap our Martin (Ellison, not Carthy) as her
permanent melodeon player. The lad on the above-referenced BBC
video had terrible bellows control.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:44 PM

She was wonderful at Saddleworth.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:47 PM

I'd agree there Greg - Even though we have disagreed quite a lot over the last few hours:-) Martin is one of the finest box players I have seen (and heard!) for a long time. Come back to Swinton, Martin, even if it is on your own!

D.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:56 PM

Eliza has collaborated with Martin Ellison, on Heat Light & Sound.
And with Saul Rose, Tim Van Eyken, John Spiers, Chango Spasiuk and loads of others I can't be arsed to think of.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Kampervan
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:58 PM

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael - PM
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:25 PM

"But she's not quite as good as Phil Beer!!!!!!!!!!!! "

"she's not as good as Dave Swarbrick either, but that, only because Beer and Swarbrick have been in the business longer. Give her time, give her time. !!!!!!!"



Sorry mate, I think that the next ice age will come before she ever gets that good.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Tootler
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 03:35 PM

But try as I might, I just think that their sprog is an o.k. singer who just happened to get a leg up.

Being whose daughter she is might have helped with contacts etc. in the early days, but there comes a time when you survive on your own abilities or not at all. The fact that she is still thriving says it all.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 03:43 PM

When she's good, as on most of her Waterson/Carthy work, she's an expressive genius.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 03:57 PM

So, the upshot of it is that Kampervan does not think Eliza is that good.

Noted.

And Kampervan will not be persuaded otherwise, not in a million years (ice-age references etc).

Noted.


What shall we do now? Anyone for tiddlywinks?

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:17 PM

I suppose we could all post our lists of other performers we think are over-rated ...would that be educational?

Personally I'd rather watch paint dry, but each to their own.

Anne

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Kampervan
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:29 PM

Hey guys, that's cool.

I started this thread thread to find out if anyone agreed with me or not.

It would seem that not many do.

O.K., now I know.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:35 PM

If you simply started the thread to find out whether anyone agreed with you about her talents, perhaps it's time to apologise for this:

"she ponces around like a prima donna, holding court where lesser mortals approach at their peril."

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:39 PM

I'll try that again.
http://www.4shared.com/file/21072661/88517185/01_-_WCCelticConn_01.html

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Kampervan
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:39 PM

Well, if you want me to be totally honest I would substitute 'behaves' for 'ponces'.

As observed at a couple of late night festival sessions three years ago.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: van lingle
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:43 PM

I personally don't care how she got where she is I'm just thankful we have the gift of her music.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:47 PM

Well, I've always found her lovely.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,cookieless folkiedave
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 05:03 PM

She is so like a prima donna she plays for the Goathland Plough Stotts on their annual outing going around Goathland with them all day long.

IMHO she is genuinely pleasant and ~I was with her late at night at a festival a year or two ago - she was great fun......

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 05:40 PM

The only thing that Eliza got from her parents is her talent - how could she not? She has always been completely her own person (from age 2 onwards). Yes, she carries the name; yes, she plays with her, already established and revered, parents. But she is an unstoppable, indefatigable powerhouse of energy and innovation who appeals to many (maybe alienates a few) and bellows the cause of English music from the rooftops.
From what arrogant stance does someone come along and ask if she's any "good" and suggest that she's only popular because of her parentage ("primarily cos of her mum and dad")?
Of course she's bloody "good" - whatever the hell that means - she may not be to everyone's taste but that's another matter entirely.
Kampervan, your assertion is not "heresy" - it's just plain ignorant and offensive.
Martin Ellison

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 05:54 PM

Maybe people should have a look at this.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:11 PM

Well snail - thanks for that.
If this pillock is just winding people up then he ought to wait until April 1st instead of childishly slandering Eliza Carthy. Not funny, pathetic (and I can take a joke with the best of them).
Martin Ellison

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:22 PM

kampervan-are you a proper folk person, or did you just come here to make trubble?

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:38 PM

I can take a joke with the best of them......

Monty Python, right...? Which sketch was that?

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:42 PM

I've told you once . . .

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:48 PM

Vin Garbutt anyone? ................ I'll get my coat

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:59 PM

I saw EC quite a while ago when she was just a kid. While I didn't think she was awe inspiring (although the whole show was as good as it gets), she was still professionally good. Based on recordings I've heard since, she has only grown in skill and artistry. She always had the wings, just needed to stretch them a bit.

What this thread makes me think about isn't primarily Eliza's talent. Instead, I wonder what insecurities and frustrations must cause a person to be so offended by another's success that they suppress the natural instinct to avoid looking inadequate and jealous in public. What other reason would a person have to start a thread like this?

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 07:32 PM

Well I don't think she's that good actually. Her singing style is derivative and she has an unjustifiably big ego. I see these two aspects as faults, not fatal ones but still faults, that prevent her from progressing from good (which she undoubtedly is) to great (which she most assuredly isn't).   To be utterly subjective and to give my personal opinion which I know is of no interest to anyone and which informs absolutely nothing, if she comes on the radio I have to go through approximately ten seconds of severe buttock-clenching before I can get to the "off" button.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: stallion
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 07:34 PM

EC could have turned her back on all this, she didn't and we are all the better for it. Her parents are really friendly people and so is she, it doesn't surprise me that she spends a day playing for the Plough Stotts. I dare say Jamie Redknap had a leg up in his career by being coached by his Father from the day he could walk and the Charlton brothers from Jackie Milburn, but class will out and she has used her training well and deserves to be seen on her own merits in her own right. Now enough!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,PissA
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 07:35 PM

Well this is the 3rd thread Kempervan has put up to stir the pot.
Weither you like her, her parents or a donkey is personal taste & yes, there is no accounting for tatse. Weither or not she's judged good is defined by those who'd have knowledge, experience of what she's presenting & doing & by her peers.
As far as her peers seem to believe, she's good enough for them & when you're as good as her peers then toss in your 2 pence worth otherwise be glad that we have talent like her about & go bother others.
Now I think she's quite good, very good in fact, well I'd even say she's a master at the English style of fiddling. Now I'm not a fiddler so what the hell do I know. She's so young, how could she be that good. Have you been around great fiddlers long enough to know the difference?
As a singer I don't know how the hell she got that good,,,,,but she did. She's a fine a singer & presenter of her material espically her traditional english material as fine a singer as both her parents & in my opinion she's benifited from both their genes & will surpass them in time as she continues to mature. I do love both her father's voice & more so her mother's but also loved her aunt's & her uncle's. It'same that when a family like her's is lucky enough to be blessed with great voices that some prig will come along & wants to piss downstream in their direction.
Next you'll be casting your aim on some other singing family or stirring the pot in a new thread. You've been pegged.


PissA

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 07:50 PM

For God's sake. Another "Let's have a poke at _____ thread.

When any of us is as much in demand as Eliza, and even half as professional then our opinions of her work might carry some authority.

Meanwhile, I just like listening to her, all right?

BTW, I had the good fortune to meet her offstage, and found her personable, and pleasant. She certainly displayed rather better manners than some here.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 07:56 PM

So it isn't objectively possible to say whether she's that good or not because it comes down to taste in the end and in a free country you can take her or leave her. But I honestly don't see what what's so wrong with discussing it. If we all agreed only to discuss what's already black or white we'd have very short threads. So, Eliza fans, don't get so upset. There's no law that says that Eliza-doubters can't speak up.   Remember how you felt when your best mate suddenly told you that he thought the Stones were better than the Beatles.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 10:15 PM

I agree,that if we only discussed that which was black or white ,we would have very short threads.
we should be free to discuss controversial topics, without having the right to free speech impaired.
I become uncomfortable though ,with threads like this, that name a specific person,and then question the extent of their ability.
I know that if I was in Elizas position,and was being talked about,I would not be very pleased[even if you believe that all publicity is good]and probably would feel quite hurt.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:57 PM

"An artist is 'good' or not entirely regardless of whether any individual 'likes' what they do. If you prefer Mississippi Delta blues, Tuareg or Indian classical, fair enough. 'Good' means that their repertoire, performance and presentation is excellent."

Hi Diane,

That's an interesting statement. And I'm not sure I disagree.

I don't Rap music at all. Too pnderoous. I have not liked it from the moment I heard it. I don't like most Jazz. They both turn me off so that I don't listen to them. How will I know they are preformed and presented excellently if I have no interest in Rap or Jazz in the first place. I know Miles Davis was technically a fine horn player. But what I heard from his great skill was mind numbingly polyphonic and discordant to me. Was he still good? And how do I know?

Nice to hear from you.

Don

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:15 AM

"So, Eliza fans, don't get so upset. There's no law that says that Eliza-doubters can't speak up.   Remember how you felt when your best mate suddenly told you that he thought the Stones were better than the Beatles."

It's a fair comment, and I have often said on Mudcat that we have as much right to say what we don't like as what we like - that's discussion. However, both of the recent Eliza threads (I include this one) have not been objective discussions of her abilities as an artist, or even just of people's personal responses to her work. If someone wants to say, "Her fiddle playing sets my teeth on edge," I actually think that's a perfectly valid response of one person to another's work; tell us why, and who you think is better, and what you prefer, and - hey presto! - we actually have a grown-up discussion and debate.

I object to the personal remarks like "I just think that their sprog is an o.k. singer who just happened to get a leg up." No one sustains a solo career for - what, 15 years so far? - because of their surname. To suggest her career is down to nepotism is an insult to both her and her parents.

And "she ponces around like a prima donna, holding court where lesser mortals approach at their peril" is just nasty, and untrue, as the many people who have met or know Eliza have attested on this thread. As Dave pointed out, very few prima donnas turn out on a frezing January day to play all day for their local longsword team. Or to Bampton, just to play alongside the other morris musicians.

Some prima donna. Some ego.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:26 AM

Isn't it strange how criticising this or that folk icon is a little like farting in church.
I don't like E.C.'s singing either, she has a good voice which, so far at least, doesn't seem to have reached the songs she sings (yet - she is young).
On the other hand, I'm not particularly fond of her parents' singing either. Her father's vocal idiosyncrasies always get in the way of my enjoyment of his well-researched songs, as do his tricksy accompaniments, and his sameness of vocal approach to my ear, makes them all sound the same.
Her mother has an excellent voice, but she always sounds to me as if she is still singing with the Watersons, who have just gone down to the bar and left her at it.
Sorry Cap'n, regarding Eliza's finer feelings, a saying about heat and kitchens springs to mind.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:40 AM

As well as her collaborations with a whole collection of box players listed above (as well as an equally long list of players of stringed things), I have seen her with numerous singers (such as Billy Bragg, Värttinä, Joan Baez, Cerys Matthews, Paul Weller, Elvis Costello and a rap elecronica DJ that cleared the floor of the Forum (sorry!).

Not everything was a total, unqualified success. But Eliza is fearless in her musical experimentation and has an attitude of not being afraid to try things which should surely be admired and emulated by all. It is a joy (and a miracle) that she is able to make a living in non-maintream music.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:50 AM

I think Jim may be somewhat living in the past, at least as far as his views on Martin Carthy are concerned. In the 70s MC's playing did tend to some extent to emphasise what he could do, but as MC himself said recently in a TV interview these days he is more concerned with how much can be left out, rather than how much can be put in. I rather liked the mannerisms of his early vocal style and tend to think that they are not so observable now.

Who else can you name who is such a consummate folk musician folk singer and scholar of the medium, all in one? The only heir apparent I can think of is Jon Loomes. The pyrotechnic brigade are all very well, but for me their endless irish-stye modulations tend very much to obscure the song.

I can't think of any younger singer, other than EC, who brings fire to English harmony, or manages to produce such lively "rocking" (if I can use that word in context) fiddle without (at least without much) sliding into Irish or American delivery.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:04 AM

one of my favourite things about Eliza's singing is that she doesn't go in for that pretty, head-voice delivery so many young female English singers prefer. Her voice is rich, colourful, ballsy, passionate - and technically sound.

The other thing that's interesting to observe over her career is how much her voice has strengthened and matured. Her voice has lowered over time, as she's got older, but it's also picked up a lot of power.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:13 AM

I would certainly cross the road to listen to Eliza Carthy sing and play . She has a great deal of talent IMHO, but as has been said 'each to their own'. I cannot agree however with comments regarding her being a 'Prima Donna' for I have always found her affable and approachable - very much in the mould of her parents.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:03 AM

"The other thing that's interesting to observe over her career is how much her voice has strengthened and matured. Her voice has lowered over time, as she's got older, but it's also picked up a lot of power."

Are you saying something about high voices here. Now imagine a performer who could both play like Eliza and sing like Polly Bolton!!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:24 AM

I can't think of any younger singer, other than EC, who brings fire to English harmony, or manages to produce such lively "rocking" (if I can use that word in context) fiddle without (at least without much) sliding into Irish or American delivery.

Nancy Kerr?

I don't appreciate everything that Eliza has done, but she has been bold enough to push boundaries. I also think that irrespective of her lineage, she could not have sustained her position if she didn't merit it. She has blossomed over the years, her singing and playing has matured, she is a great ambassador and champion of the genre and inspired many young and old people alike. Good on yer 'liza.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:31 AM

Richard Bridge,talks about Irish style modulations.
modulation means changes of key,something that doesnt occur very much,in either Irish or English traditional songs,and not very often in Irish tunes,off the top of my head I can only think of the Galway Hornpipe.
I dislike the use of the words Irish , American,Delivery,it sounds as if all Americans,and all ,Irish use the same delivery.
Margaret Barry is very different from Packie Byrne or Sarah Makem,or Elizabeth Cronin ,Roscoe Holcomb is very different from Jean Ritchie.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Pistachio
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:09 AM

I was impressed by her musicianship, energy and enthusiasm when I saw her recently. I hadn't enjoyed a previous performance years ago but she had me enthralled this time round. IMHO her duets with Saul Rose were electric .

"she doesn't go in for that pretty, head-voice delivery so many young female English singers prefer"   Thank goodness!
H.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:26 AM

Exactly, Pistachio. Plenty of it around, if that's your thing. I like seeing a woman use the full range of her voice, and not being afraid to dig down and give it some wellie when the occasion suits.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:42 AM

have you noticed EC has the same initials as Eric Clapton.

This is what Kurt Vonnegut called a Grand Falloon. On an astral plane, there is a deep relationship implied.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:58 AM

Maybe (and maybe not) the dots for Irish tunes do not show modulation, and yes, that's exactly what I mean by it, changing key, but go to any place where Irish tunes are being played and it happens all the time, and sometimes it's simple D to G but a lot of the time it goes to A as well, sometimes C or F, and sometimes off to various minors.

And of course not all Irish sounds exactly exactly the same, nor all American, (although they do get very samey after about 10 minutes, but then so does a lot of "humpty" ie english morris tunes and similar - if it ain't Nellie the Elephant, it's Congleton Bear) but in the majority and possibly even most cases you can hear the nationality of occidental folk music.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Edmond
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:25 AM

In my anything but humble opinion, Eliza, coming from the background and parentage she does, might have had more to prove than another musician of her undoubted talent.

For me, she has done that in spades. I had the privilege of seeing (and hearing) her in the Big Session. Other second generation musicians in this were Rose Kemp (Maddy Prior's daughter) ; Benji Kirkpatrick, and again IMABHO, they two are gifted musicians, as is Eliza.

I have followed and damn near worshipped Martin Carthy since October 9th 1966 - my "Sam Larner" moment. Prior to this I played bass in a rock group, so I might perhaps be biased.

I wouldn't just cross the road to see Eliza - I'd travel miles.

Seems to me that Kampervan and his ilk are begrudging buggers. Grow up !

Bryn Pugh

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Vin2
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:44 AM

Saw Waterson / Carthy t'other week at Saddleworth fest. (mum Norma was sadly absent due to illness) but they were, in my 'umble opinion, awsome. Eliza played some amazing fiddle, stomping around the stage to great effect often masterfully accompanied instrumentally and vaclly by dad Martin and fab melodeon pleyer Saul Rose.

She really is 'that good'!!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Fudged
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 08:02 AM

"To be utterly subjective and to give my personal opinion".. an interesting paradox there.
anyway...
As far as EC's talent or lack of it goes - doubtless many people here saw her being interviewed on BBC2 at Glastonbury a couple of years back. Suddenly bereft of her band, (the bad weather meant gear couldn't be moved or something) she gave an awesome performance of Irving Berlin's Colour Blind. I've seen her live a few times - always a joy, but this performance was just stunning. I reckon anyone who can give a show like that has earned their Musician's Union membership.
I've never found her to be remotely like a Prima Donna on the couple of occassions I've thanked her for a great gig - the other thing she inherited from her parents are a scoail conscience and sense of equality.
She's very much that good!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 08:13 AM

R Bridge, modulation does not vey much in individual traditional tunes and to an even lesser extent in songs[Irish or English].
both Irish and English and Scottish musicians often choose to put two different tunes together in a set, that are in different keys.,that relieves the monotony for the listener.,as doe the use of changing from Jig to reel[change of tempo]
there are many similarities between the modes used in English and Irish/scottish songs,generally they are in the dorian mode,the mixolydian mode,the major mode,very occasionally a fourth mode is used,off the top of my head I think they are called the ionian and aeolian.
the Banks of the lee [irish],is very similiar to a northumbrian song.There has been much interchange between the nations,and it is reflected in their music,THE Croppy boy / LordFranklin.
tramps andhawkers /paddy west/ homes of donegal.
Stpatricks Day /William and Nancy etc etc.
JimCarroll,you are no longer a musician or a singer,you dont seem to understand the Diochotomy singers have, they are supposed to sing with sensitivity,and yet you expect them to be insensitive to criticism,youll be turning us all into spilt personalities,can we please leave Eliza Carthy alone.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Folkie
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 08:28 AM

Well i think that comprehensively answers the original question.
The majority of people think that Eliza Carthy is that good.

not a lot else to be said really

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 08:38 AM

Bet she draws a deep breath and sleeps easier tonight, knowing that.

The Mudcat seal of approval! I wonder how she coped with the worry in those dark hours when things lay in the balance....her entire career called into question by a man called Kampervan and Jim Carroll - it must have been hell.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Fudged
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 08:41 AM

...feel a bit of a tit for taking Kampervan's bait but there it is - I'm new to the whole Forum thing. We live & learn :)

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 08:46 AM

read the whole story in your soaraway Sun....the lies , the betrayal, the heartache...

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:07 AM

....the bollocks!

She IS that good. I said it, it's fact.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Vin2
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:10 AM

Right, stoppit now, this script is gettin far too silly!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:15 AM

Kampervan is an oaf who sets out to annoy people, and succeeds.

eric

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:24 AM

For what it's worth (WLD!) I think she's very good indeed - and I don't like much (being a grumpy old 'folk policeman'). She's not only very accomplished, in a technical sense, but also seems to understand, and to be able to express, the passion at the heart of English Trad. music. Long may her talent continue to grow!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Edmond
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:52 AM

What eric the red said, except 'oaf' in this context, is complimentary. I would have said 'boor'.

To set the record straight : Jim Carroll was, to my personal knowledge, a singer, and interpreter of traditional song, of rare talent. A lot like Eliza, Norma and Martin, in fact.

Bryn Pugh

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 12:31 PM

If this traditional music thing was valid. If anyone passed it on except - this crew. You wouldn't have to take yourselves so seriously.

My last word.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:11 PM

"My last word."

oh? did you say something before littledrummerwhatsit? I must have blinked and missed it LOL

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:23 PM

wanked and missed it, more like....

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:44 PM

Cap'n
To place any artist above criticism is extremely insulting to them. It implies that (a) they are arrogant enough to consider themselves above such or (b) So insecure as performers that they are likely to throw a wobbler and go off in a sulk.
As I said - fart in church.
Richard,
I still get to hear Martin occasionally - sorry, no change there as far as I can see.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:55 PM

littledrummerwhatsit. the perfect poster child for year round schooling

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 02:08 PM

"Isn't it strange how criticising this or that folk icon is a little like farting in church."

it's a bit like criticising God as well....

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 02:47 PM

Cap'n
Sorry, that last posting of mine was rather hurried.
I intended to say that suggesting, as you have on a number of occasions in the past, that only those who sing are in the position to criticise or understand singing or singers is extremely elitist and precious. If you are unable, as a performer, to take criticism FROM ANYBODY stay at home and sing in the bath to your rubber duck!
Are you saying that ALL performers are immune from criticism, or only the ones you reckon? I seem to remember your having a pop at one or two of them on this forum - perhaps you can furnish us with a list of oks and no-nos.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 02:48 PM

We didn't allow farting in Spalding Quaker Meeting House, when I was a boy. If you felt the need to fart (and we've all felt ungodly urges), we would ask ourselves - have we thought deeply enough about this? What would Jesus think if you opened the anal sphlincter in this place of worship, and did foul smelling choruses of the St Louis Blues?

If criticising Eliza is like that, I want no part of it. Shame on you!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 02:59 PM

Isn't it strange how criticising this or that folk icon is a little like farting in church.

Nope - it is like criticising an icon.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:31 PM

"Nope - it is like criticising an icon."
and God-forbid that we should do that

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Crazy man Michael
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:33 PM

"Her voice has lowered over time, as she's got older"
that's what comes from hanging around the bar tent *LOL*

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:28 PM

What I like about the Folk World is that no-one is an "icon" or above criticism. Putting people on pedestals is what happens in the Pop/Rock World - not a world that I'm particularly interested in.

Nevertheless, I do have favourite singers/musicians whose artistry I admire. I can't remember when it was that I heard that MC & NW had a daughter who sang but the marketing hype suggested that she might blend traditional forms with 'modern' pop forms and I didn't think that this sounded very interesting at all (at least, not to me).
When I eventually got to hear Ms Carthy on stage I found myself to be, in spite of my former doubts, deeply impressed.

I feel that she is an inspired and impassioned performer as well as an extremely accomplished musician - not much more to say, really - except, yes, she really is that good! And she's on my list of favourite singers.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:22 PM

I suspect that Eliza has rules that just don't fit in with some of the folk forum posters' rules, which do seem rather odd in some cases!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 11:38 AM

"rules that just don't fit in with some of the folk forum posters' rules"

Thou Shalt Not Criticise An Icon?

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 02:25 PM

What?

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 04:52 PM

nobody's that good.

Ciff Richard's not that good.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 06:59 AM

Jesus loves him, he must be good....

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 11:33 AM

Marty Wilde was that good, actually so was Wee Willy Harris...*LOL*

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 11:42 AM

The three of them visited Alaska around the turn of the Millenium I think I saw them twicet.

Martin Carthy was Martin Carthy, I'd never seen (or even knew about Norma Waterson, and Eliza looked like a Brit generational twig, i.e. the more trad the elders were, Eliza had metal coming out all over her face, looking very London moderne, and a zaftig figure that showed she do well in an igloo on a glacier. Quite fetching. Art was with them, and I boughted all their CDs, one had a boot on it.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: black walnut
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 11:58 AM

I don't like everything Eliza does, but I have her Red/Rice collection and saw her perform from that compilation live, a couple of times, with great enthusiasm and perfectly crafted talent. I think she's one of the most talented folk musicians on the planet, but as I say, I don't like everything she does.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 11:59 AM

A boot?
Tim Van Eyken's New Boots?
Best General Wolfe I've ever heard, preceded by the Colin Cotter tune Wild Woman Of Bawdsey?
(TVE was a Waterson:Carthy member at that time).

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 06:49 PM

It wasn't hearing Eliza Carthy that got me listening to folk but it could easily have been. We should be pleased that there are artists taking this music we love to a wider audience - which is what it needs to sustain it. We should be even more pleased that some of them - like Eliza - are producing music of a consistently high quality. Criticism, expressing personal preferences, begging to differ, analysis and so on and so forth is fine and healthy. Mindless carping is a waste of everyone's time.

Eliza is the kind of unofficial outreach worker for folk I feel more than happy with.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 05:51 AM

I heard Eliza Carthy perform live for the first time 3 months ago. I have to admit that I went along with a somewhat sceptical ear - was I just paying for the name?

Having heard her, the answer was, emphatically, no! She had a style of her own and a rich, powerful voice. So, in my view, she is that good.

DC

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: John J
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 06:12 AM

Yes

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 12:35 PM

"Well i think that comprehensively answers the original question.
The majority of people think that Eliza Carthy is that good".

Wasn't it Madge O'Rity who voted in Adolf Hitler and Margaret Thatcher
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,rubbish
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 12:36 PM

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 01:14 PM

Jim, maybe you have a 'complex' sense of humour that I'm missing, but I think a load of folkies on a folk forum generally having benign feelings to a leading folk performer is not only hardly suprising but also not at all comparable to the rise of Hitler or Thatcher. There are some pretty sordid, unpleasant and downright illegal pastimes that are strictly minority activities, too, by the way. And some things - like affection for nurses and the RNLI, for instance - that are shared by a majority of people and that are entirely benign... So you don't like Eliza Carthy. That's fine. Using the Hitler/Thatcher argument on those who do is a little bit cheap, don't you think?

Cheers,

Nigel

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 02:04 PM

Diane:

Yes New Boots Very hard to resist a CD cover like that! Another album was called "Both ears and the tail" and there was a long story to go with it which i won't bore you with and maybe you already know it.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 02:06 PM

Nigel ,I agree.[Hope that,s grammatically correct].Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 03:09 PM

Nigel,
'Twas but a joke - weak as it was.
However, the folk song scene is notorious for placing itself above criticism - hence the decline in standards. More often than not any adverse comment regarding a popular (or any) singer on the scene is greeted with howls of..... (well, scroll back through this thread and you'll find enough examples - including the Cap'n's penultimate posting).
I repeat, anybody who gets up before an audience and sings, dances, paints pictures, writes books... whatever creative endeavour, does so at the risk of having their efforts commented on, favourably our otherwise.
Being benign is one thing, being uncritical is something else - but there again, I'm not a member of the Cap'n's lodge so I presumably have no right to an opinion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Folkie
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 04:02 PM

So what's the problem?
The majority of people contributing to this thread think that Eliza C 'Is that good'

That's not to say they are right or that they are wrong. But that's all the original question asked, and that is what they think.

End of.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Barry
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 04:17 PM

When your peers appreciate you, want you to record & play with them & them with you, when they start praising what you're doing & essentially give you their stamp of approval then they're saying you are worthy of the status that they are able to bestow on you. When these peers are the cream of the crop your blood line doesn't count for shit. You make it there on your own efforts. She's right in her element where she rightfully belongs. She's the cream in my cup.

Water seeks it own level.

Barry

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 04:53 PM

Jim Carroll,which performers have I criticised on this forum.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 05:36 PM

ok Jim, I have remembered now,but it was a singers particular interpretation of a song,I then pointed out the positives of that particular singer.
That is a little different from asking stupid questions as did Kampervan ,[Is Eliza Carthy really that good],for christ,s sake what does that mean,how good is that good,
Kampervan then says on another thread, that he started it to wind people up[I believe thats what is called trolling]
or like you did, talking about Hitler or Thatcher[itwasnt clear whether you were joking].
Jim,of course your entitled too your opinion.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Effsee
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 08:20 PM

Damned stupid question in the first place!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Bernard
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 08:44 PM

I'd never heard Eliza sing, then I heard a track playing, thought 'love that voice'... found out afterwards it was Eliza.

I'm not a 'bandwaggon' type of person - quite the opposite - but I do know what pleases my ear. Kate Rusby? No thanks! Eliza Carthy? Yes please!

Hmmm... maybe another can of worms...!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 02:30 AM

As Oscar said - "Comparisons are odious".

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 03:05 AM

I can't believe this thread is still going!

What's the problem? Some people like some performers, others like others. Nothing to boast about if you don't appreciate something. It's not a case of aesthetic or moral superiority, just a question of personal taste. And there's no possibility of changing someone else's opinion by writing about it.

Now shall we have a list of what foodstuffs we all like and dislike instead?

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 03:25 AM

But it's not about whether you 'like' Eliza Carthy or not.
This is a subjective (and pretty stupid question).
It's questioning whether she is good in her own right.
Yes, she is good. A non-value judgment, just an undeniable fact.
What makes this thread title contentious is the word 'THAT'.
As in, stick her up there and throw things because her parents are who they are.
And while we're at lt, let's do it to the Wainwright and the Thompson children as well.
Envious, mindless jealousy, if you ask me.
(I know no-one did but I'm saying it anyway).

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 04:07 AM

"I can't believe this thread is still going!"

I think maybe you should be asking why it it is still going. And I think maybe, its the general sense that there is something rotten in the state of English folk music. A false note somewhere.

I don't this is Eliza Carthy's fault. I think she is a very good musician, and I think that she conducts herself in a friendly and pleasant way and as far as I can see she is a decent human being. On a personal level I can see no fault in this lady.

I'm happy to be shot down in flames over this, but I do think maybe why there is some resentment is the fact that a play on the Mike Harding show is for most songwriters the creative opportunity of a lifetime, and Eliza (no fault of hers) more or less got this as a birthright. And there isn't (as fas as I know) a track like say Sharon Shannon's The Blackbird, with that 'WOW!' factor where the general public goes, shush! it's Eliza Carthy!

Just maybe the feeling that its not a level playing field. Well we all know that - but levelling it out isn't really on anybody's agenda.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 04:16 AM

Cap'n,
Thank you for not making me trawl through your back postings - the fact that you criticised a singers performance negates your suggestion that we shouldn't criticise singers for fear of hurting their feelings.
Perhaps you'll now get round to clarifying your persistent statement that only singers are qualified to comment on singing, or is that too much to hope for?
Folkie
I said it was a joke, I didn't say that suggesting that the fact that the majority likes a singer automatically makes them good. I get a little tired of bland statements that such-and-such a person is a good singer, it happens rather a lot on this forum and elsewhere. If I held my opinions because they were those of the majority I'd wear a bell round my neck and go off and get sheared regularly.
I tried in my original posting to say why EC, MC and NW were not the best thing since Carter's Little Liver Pills and I believe that an exercise in discussing the abilities of singers, sacred cows or otherwise, is a perfectly valid one as long as the participants are prepared to give voice to the reasons for their conclusion, otherwise we become the folk equivalent to the Robbie Williams Appreciation Society.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 04:17 AM

Sorry,
That should have read Guest Jim Carroll,
Guest Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 04:29 AM

Somewhat off-topic, but the EC Band toured a couple of years ago with the SS Band and audience reaction (whichever band went first and they alternated) to presentation and material showed an emphatic preference for EC. In my case, it was the inevitable feeling after 10 minutes or so that all SS's tunes became overcome with an overall sameness and it seemed at least some among the audiences agreed.

An EC track with the WOW factor? OK, singing: 10,000 Miles, playing: No Man's Jig/Hanoverian Dance/Three Jolly Sheepskins.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 04:50 AM

Jim - Thanks for the clarification. For a moment there I thought my ownership of EC albums was about to usher in 18 years of misery...
WLD - I don't think EC, or any musician whose music is played can be 'blamed' for the playlist policies of Mike Harding's show. I'm not convinced, in any case, that they are that different from most mainstream radio shows, where the best selling, most popular and well known artists are given a disproportionate amount of airplay. I don't think it's right, but it does point to a need for a folk John Peel for Mike H's Steve Wright, if you know what I mean. Meanwhile, thankfully we have BBC Listen Again for the good regional shows, podcasts like Folkcast, internet radio... none of this with wall-to-wall EC.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 04:51 AM

Like I say I'm willing to stand corrected - as a live act i would have to agree - very good. Recordings a funny thing though. I know several musicians i would class as brilliant, and moreover have spent a lifetime playing brillaiantly, without having once found that extra piece of woofle dust that produces a legendary track.

I presume if you've spent a lifetime playing Diane, you know of which I speak.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: selby
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 04:58 AM

Why are we doing this? we are a small minority of the folk world who love nothing better than slagging somebody off. Have discussions about the folk world in genral, but stop bringing personalaties into it.Everything seems to revolve around person's forcing there perception down someone elses throat.For the record I like both Eliza and Vin another who has recently been attacked by this forum they have both worked to get where they are.We all have the ability to vote with our feet and in the case of both artists mentioned people do by going to see them ditractors vote with yours and dont watch them. but stop slagging people off
Keith

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 05:16 AM

It's the thread title that's attempting to slag off one artist for reasons of her parentage.
We are currently discussing EC's musical merits vis-à-vis Ms Shannon and whoever else WLD is talking about (no, I've no idea).

Can't imagine how Mr Garbutt fits in here, indeed he doesn't. In another thread someone wanted him to play a certain festival. Others had doubts about the anti-feminist stance in some of his songwriting. No-one mentioned his parents. Does anyone know, or indeed care? Sticking the the actual point might be nice. And useful.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 05:45 AM

Jim,Ithink this thread is a wind up and a waste of time.
You are very knowledgeable,and entitled to your opinion,about Eliza Carthy.
Talking about Martin and Eliza is irrelevant and off topic,your question to me is again off topic,if you want to discuss that me join mudcat and pm me.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 05:51 AM

I'm not slagging anybody off - I just think theres a lot of luck involved in producing a track that captures the public's imagination - however good a musician and live act you are.

I think a monster crossover hit would be seen as some kind of vindication. Silence the naysayers, and I hope it happens for her. She works at her art, she deserves it.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 06:15 AM

Knowing as I do the Nic Jones version of 10,000 Miles, I simply can't listen to Eliza's version of it. It's awful. Only in my opinion of course!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 06:21 AM

Thinking over what I wrote earlier. The problem isn't that Eliza Carthy and her bands get on the Mike Harding show. The problem is, that such a hell of a lot of deserving artists don't. And I would imagine that that situation is bound to spark envy.

I'm thinking in print here. Maybe I've got it all wrong.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,CP
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 06:36 AM

To some people "Yes" to some "No" - suppose it down to taste not "Fact"

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 06:51 AM

Steve, I didn't say Liza did it better than Nic Jones. Just that she (also) does it with a WOW factor.

However, the thing about Liza's version of 10k Miles on Heat Light & Sound is that it was directly influenced by Nic Jones' rendition on Noah's Ark Trap. And not many people can listen to that nowadays. In the notes to the live version on Unearthed (available direct from Mollie Music.), Nic describes it as a bit of a pick-and-mix of variants but mostly based on the song collected by Cecil Sharp from Mrs Rosie Hensley of Carmen, North Carolina in 1916. And playing this back just now, I have only just realised (after 7 years) that there is a short bonus track that follows it, Sally Brown.

None of which has anything to do with Eliza's version but what does is that she follows it in her recording (and live sets) with Bacca Pipes, one of the very finest English tunes.

WLD, what's all this about EC bands 'always being played on the MH show?' What you mean surely is kRusby bands. All the bloody time.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: selby
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 07:34 AM

I read it as slagging off
Keith

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 07:42 AM

It just occurred to me: "Is EC BETTER than she's usually judged to be?"

I'm not saying she is, but how would we know? As Jim Carroll never tires of pointing out we seem to have few critical standards, within this field, to judge singers against. Or rather such standards are knocking around out there somewhere but anyone who attempts to invoke them is immediately pounced on as a 'folk fascist/policeman' (I suspect by a vociferous minority who believe that they somehow represent the 'dreaded' majority).

So far our discussions of EC's talents seem to have focussed on:

- Her parentage.

- Whether or not she is popular.

- How much airtime she gets on the Mike Harding show.

I happen to think that EC is an intriguing and original talent and the most important aspects of that talent have tended to be overlooked or not discussed.

Off the top of my head, two such aspects which are more important than any of the three listed above are:

- Her choice of repertoire

- Her use of self-accompaniment (particularly the fiddle).

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 08:17 AM

'I read it as slagging off'

sort of goes with the territory - you get and perform, and some bugger somewhere will say something not entirely to your credit. I'm sure EC appreciates your manly intervention - unhand that lady, you cads!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 09:03 AM

Well Eliza and the Ratcatchers did a pretty good job playing to a mainly non-folk audience at Nottingham's Riverside Festival last night.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 09:04 AM

At the risk of doing thread drift, I just wish, when there's so little time given to golk on mainstream radio, the Harding would desist from taking his allotted time up with novelty records (Ulekele Orchestra of Great Britain doing 'Anarchy in the UK') and country music. Eliza Carthy on his show is the least of anyone's worries. The problem WLD highlights of deserving artists not getting on the show only underlines the need for a folk John Peel.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 09:04 AM

As the days have gone on I have increasingly hoped that this thread would die a death, however it shows no signs of doing that so maybe its time that made another contribution.

I've come in for a fair bit of criticism over the last few days and I guess that most of it was deserved.

I started the thread because I happened to think that E C was good but I wondered whether or not her circumstances had enabled her to progress further and more quickly than others with as much, if not more talent.

I was genuinely interested in whether or not others shared that view.

I wanted the thread to evoke reaction, but I now realise that the language that I used was perjorative and, in retrospect, not likely to stimulate a constructive discussion.

For this I apologise unreservedly to everyone.

It is difficult for me to answer every criticism that the people out there have raised, and yes I should know better, and yes, I know that I can't undo what I have done.

My comments about E C's behaviour were based on my own observations, but, from the general response, what I saw was atypical and the concensus is that she's an O.K. person.

I largely agree with D Polshaw's sentiments in his 'Why P on anyones parade' thread. No-one is beyond criticism, but it should be constructive rather than destructive. I shall be far more circumspect about any further contributions that I am tempted to make.


K/van

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 09:05 AM

About my last post. Anyone know what this here 'golk' is?

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 09:07 AM

Bless you, Mr Van. A very decent post.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 09:38 AM

I think there is far too much golk on the wireless.
It was like when they put skooker on the b/w telly.
Useless.
I like the Yuke Ork of Krate Kritain though.
Never mind that MH played them once.
He's not wrong ALL the time.

Another Peel?
Not really possible but Kershaw WILL be back.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 12:22 PM

off topic totally...or maybe not, but to my mind The Noahs Ark Trap is Nic Jones finest piece of work.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 12:32 PM

its avery good lp,but so is Penguin Eggs,In fact all his lps are good.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 12:36 PM

Was the Lone ranger all that good, after all he wore a mask

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 02:55 PM

As far as I'm concerned Kampervan has nothing whatever to apologise for.
Personally, I might have set the question "what makes EC as good as some people appear to think she is", but then again, that's me.
It does no harm to have our values and tastes called to question occasionally, especially as there seem to be a number of us around who lack the bottle do do so ourselves.
Anyway, there's always the entertainment value in observing some people running round like headless chickens trying to close down a thread because it has been suggested that their particular idol might have clay feet.
As a long time admirer of MacColl, I find the suggestion that our leading singers should NEVER be criticised - well - more than a little hilarious, especially as, eighteen years after his death he still receives a kicking from any stray necrophiliac who happens to be in the vicinity. There is no harm in our discussing the merits and demerits of the singers we admire, it is all part of the learning curve in my opinion.
It would be nice to be able to discuss MacColl's singing and his ideas on same rather than why he sang with his hand over his ear, or why he changed his name, or did he prefer porridge to cornflakes for breakfast - and other such important topics, but - One Day At A Time Sweet Jesus - as the song says.
In the meantime, long live healthy and 'vive la difference'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 02:56 PM

Whoops - healthy discussion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 05:31 PM

Good gried, I've never known a forum where such a sizeable minority of people set out to be unpleasant. Why just start a threat to slag off a popular and competent performer?

I saw the last ten minutes of an Eliza Carthy performance the other evening. What I did notice is a wide range of non-folky types and young people enjoying it. Can that be a bad thing?

If having a famous name, and bopping about a bit whilst playing helps to reach out to a wider audience, then good for her. There are people making millions with far less talent.

Of course, if you don't like that style of performance, or are sufficiently a connoisseur to prefer other performers, then every pound you spend is a vote for what you like.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Mikefule
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 05:31 PM

Oops, that wasn't meant to be anonymous. It was me.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Betsy
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 07:31 PM

Some of us (sorry to mix musical metaphors) are out of time. I remember my Dad castigating my enjoying the Beatles as a kid - they won't last 5 Minutes he used to say. This young lady will find her own level,no need to say anything to negative ,performing arts is a difficult enough medium. If the future folk clubs are full of young 'uns watching Eliza and her peers and us auld bastards are moaning that clubs are not what they used to be - tough. Her Mam and Dad are nice people and I'm sure she will follow suit.
There is a drift going through some of the negative comments in this thread, that her some of her exposure "is not fair". Being a bit older now, I can tell you as I told my kids through their teenages-life isn't fair, so get used to it.The fact of the matter is some will get a leg up and the rest of us will need to work bloody hard at it.
I just hope she doesn't get hiked to the higher echelons without doing a fair turn around the small clubs , but we could say THAT about lots of up and coming talent.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: IanC
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:57 AM

Aside from possibly upsetting Eliza, who occasionally pops in here, I'd say all these threads are a healthy thing.

I'm a bit surprised at all the vitriol in this thread from people who don't really seem to know a lot about her work, but we live in a "soap" culture these days and I suppose it's to be expected.

I'm also a bit surprised at how negatively people react when their heroes get criticised too, but I don't suppose I should really. It seems hard to have an honest debate on Mudcat, though it's much better than some of the other forums. People always seem to think there's a hidden agenda.

I think she'd be welcome in my 1st Monday session at The Rose & Crown in Ashwell, but then so would anybody prepared to sing or play.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: stallion
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 05:41 AM

There are ugly hippopotamuses and beautiful hippopotamuses but I couldn't tell the difference because I am not a hippo, so people looking in from "outside" can't tell the difference. To "insiders" ( and I am not sure I am one) there can by a gulf in only slight variation, personal preference. One man's meat is another's poison, (and other cliche's) I think it has been established that there is no accounting for taste and some technically superb performers do not get the following that some less technically competent people get. I am not technically qualified to comment on Ms Carthy's musical prowess but I like to think I can appreciate her dedication to the genre at all levels, she has never disappointed me with her performances, there is only one place success comes before work and that is in the dictionary and I think she has worked pretty hard to get where she is, ok, she may have been driven by her parents but I think it was probably no more than encouragement. As to a leg up, that isn't enough, it's alright if you get a leg up but if you cannot sustain it one's demise is an exponential plunge. I think Eliza has proved she can do it, personal tastes aside, deserves her profile on her own merits.