Is Eliza Carthy really that good?

Subject: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Kampervan
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:16 AM

O.K.
This may seem like heresy. But, I've heard and seen E C a few times now and I don't think that she's that good.

Now I love Norma Waterson and I've thought that Martin Carthy was a god from the first time I saw him perform in the late sixties. But try as I might, I just think that their sprog is an o.k. singer who just happened to get a leg up.

This might be the folk equivalent of saying that I always hated Princess Di. (which I did, having met her once in 1983). And I hate to upset her fab parents, but it just gets a bit tedious when her name is mentioned in reverential tones and she ponces around like a prima donna, holding court where lesser mortals approach at their peril.

Am I alone?

K/van

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:20 AM

One man's meat................
Whether someone is 'good' or not is a matter of personal preference.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:23 AM

Yes

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:27 AM

She makes music, she's a bandleader who makes employment for other musicians - lighten up! she's not a serial killer of something. All in all - a force for good. How good is that THAT good?

That's better than a lot of people.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: treewind
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:35 AM

Well, I don't share your exaggerated views about her dad either.

I think she's got more talent and a better voice than some other popular folk icons that are around these days, and she's also been successful in her declared mission to raise the profile of English traditional music in the world outside of the folk scene.
Doubtless her fortunate start in life has enabled her to reach a bigger audience than other equally talented musicians and singers, but she's worthy of it.

(she's probably going to read this; we've had postings on mudcat from "GUEST, ec" before)

Anahata

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:36 AM

What utter crap.
"Good' is not a matter of personal preference,
An artist is 'good' or not entirely regardless of whether any individual 'likes' what they do.
If you prefer Mississipi Delta blues, Tuareg or Indian classical, fair enough.
'Good' means that their repertoire, performance and presentation is excellent.
OK, I 'like' Eliza Carthy but don't have to in order to recognise that her interpretations, collaborations, songwriting, playing for trad dancing, singing, fiddling, research, arrangement, just playing with the family or her friends or else headlining a festival is at the forefront of raising the profile of English trad among the musics of the world.
Eliza has never in her life ponced around 'like a prima donna'.
I could tell you who does, but this is not the place.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:44 AM

I think EC is excellent, and (happily) sounding more and more like her mother, vocally. I think her fiddle playing is excellent too. I'm not so sure about her "little guitar".

MC is God. And a nice bloke as well.

NW is a joy to listen to.

But I take all the above back when they do American style material, as in "Blue Murder".

Diana Spencer was a stupid spoilt brat psycho manipulative sociopath drama queen who got over 10 million quid for dropping two sprogs.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:44 AM

Diane - I would think those that ponce around like a prima donna are likely to be those with little talent so they have to compensate somehow.

Hasn't there been another thread recently inciting people to make unhelpful and insulting comments about Eliza? Is there a subtext here?

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:03 PM

Yes there has, neovo. I was just thinking "for heaven's sake - not this again."

OP, do a search on Eliza's name. All of your points have been covered ad nauseam very recently. Personally, i can't be arsed to go through the agument again, except to say

"she ponces around like a prima donna, holding court where lesser mortals approach at their peril."

is a load of crap. It's also personal abuse that has nothing to do with her talents, therefore has no place this discussion. You want to play cult of personality ("Martin Carthy is a god" - yawn), go start up some folk version of Heat.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Greg B
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:07 PM

I quite enjoyed this:

I just hear in her music so much of what I've loved for the last
several decades, from her mum and dad to Steeleye, Fairport,
Albion Band, the Morris On band, Silly Wizard, the Tannies.

She's not "derivative;" she's "brewed and steeped."

And she still sounds delightfully Yorkshire when she speaks.

Would love to see/hear her parents in that mix.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Kampervan
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:10 PM

Well that seems to have struck a chord!!

I agree that ones mans meat is... etc; but I just don't think that she's as good as her PR company paints her.

I think that she's an ok performer who would have done ok on the club scene, but she was 'presented at court' and the marketing took over from there.

When tremendous singers such as Sheila Stewart, Jock Duncan, Rosie Stewart, Roisin White etc etc are very very good but hardly ever get a mention, it seems wrong that Ms Carthy should achieve prominence primarily cos of her Mum and Dad.


O.K. it's just my opinion.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:14 PM

God, this is boring.

GO READ THE OTHER THREAD!!

As I say, all of your points have been argued and addressed only a few weeks ago.

Christ, that's not you again Lizzie, is it?

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Kampervan
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:17 PM

Sorry to be boring!! Which other thread? I obviously missed it.

Sincerest apologies for boring you Ruth (if I may be so bold).

K/van

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:18 PM

I am not that keen on Norma's singing oddly enough but do like the work of both Eliza and her Dad. I would never go as far as to say any of them were good or bad though. Diane makes the point that good or bad should not be a matter of personal taste but, to a certain extent, it has to be a matter of personal perception. For example, no matter how good or bad a contemporary jazz piece is I don't think I could ever understand the nuances enough to qualify it as good or bad. Ditto for most operatic arias.

I do however like some pieces that I know many would class as bad. Ever heard early Incredible string band stuff? I think it is wonderful but many friends, even those from the the 'folk scene' (whatever that is!) cannot stand it. Ditto with some Captain Beefheart numbers.

You pays your money and takes your chance I suppose. I hope I will never insult anyone elses music purposely and I wish people would have the same consideration for mine. I will never agree to anyone saying that a whole genre of music is bad or good though. Nor will I accept anyones definition of good or bad being any better or worse than mine!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:20 PM

Personally I've never seen the point of any posts that only exist to knock a performer or their music. What's so great about not liking something or someone? I'm not proud of not liking butterbeans, and I don't need to rally anyone else to my opinion.
If you don't like someone, here's a thought - don't go to their gigs and don't feel obliged to buy their albums. Would that work, do you think?

Anne

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:21 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=103200

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:25 PM

Good grief, you surely don't think madlizziecornish has heard of Sheila Stewart, Jock Duncan, Rosie Stewart or Roisin White? Though I suppose she could have cut'n'pasted the names from somewhere.

Why ever compare Eliza with trad Irish singers? What's the sense?

No, she doesn't have a PR company (unless you're talking about Cousin Ollie, hehe)

First time I ever saw her play was sitting on a wall on the seafront. First time I saw her play for money was at a gig in Newcastle when she and Nancy Kerr were about 16. No, their mums didn't get them the gig, though they thought Norma and Sandra must have told me to come. VERY primadonnerish.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:26 PM

Doesn't she look like her Mum?
G

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:29 PM

More all the time.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:33 PM

"I would never go as far as to say any of them were good or bad though. Diane makes the point that good or bad should not be a matter of personal taste but, to a certain extent, it has to be a matter of personal perception."

Thanks Dave, excellently put. I think that's what I was trying to say earlier, but not very successfully! :-)

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:43 PM

this is a bit like asking is caviar that good,beauty is in the eye of the beholder,so is good,or excellent,or mediocre.
I havent seen ELIZA for many years ,but last time,I saw her I thought she was VERY talented,a good musician and a good singer,OF course that doesnt mean there are not other talented people around,but they are different,we are all different.,it is silly to compare her to Rosie Stewart,oR Fred Jordan ,KateRusby,Margaret Barry or anyone else.
Personally if I had been Martin Carthys daughter,I would have used all his contacts to promote myself,as I think most people would.
I am sure, Eliza,deserves every ounce of her success and I am sure she would have been successful if she had been Eliza Bloggs.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Nick
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:45 PM

I'd go and see and enjoy Eliza anytime but wouldn't rush to see her mum or dad (even though I can see he is a very fine guitarist etc etc).

I think she plays and sings with passion and verve and I think she exudes a lot of fun and energy when she plays that makes me smile - as well as having a fine singing voice.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: KeithofChester
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:08 PM

Sorry to be boring!! Which other thread? I obviously missed it.

Kampervan, there is this thread on the BBC Board too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F2142825?thread=4337534

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:36 PM

There was a broadcast from BBC Radio Scotland on 22/1/1997 of part of the Waterson Carthy set from Celtic Connections, the first set of tunes being The Grand March and Battle of Prague, played by Eliza and Martin Carthy. Bearing in mind this was 10 years ago, and I have no idea of the colour of her hair at that time, the playing was, in terms of English folky fiddle playing ............superb, and has continued to be so in whatever style she cares to play. The whole argument here is rather silly. Some people are just never satisfied and so typically Englishly envious of success.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:40 PM

There you go Eliza! You have have the polo set with you to a man.

Say three hail Marys, two slip jigs and a chukka!

All is forgiven.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:43 PM

Personally I don't care if she looks like her mother or not, it's her very obvious talent that matters and nothing else. Bashing people achieves absolutely nothing, well, I mean, apart from getting yourself all worked up and possibly giving yourself an ulcer.
Eliza Carthy, keep it up, some of us love what you're doing.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:48 PM

Don't listen to him, he's crazy........!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:56 PM

Can't say I've seen any other recorded artists trekking through the mud and rain in January to play for traditional longsword.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:56 PM

LOL Al!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:09 PM

"Can't say I've seen any other recorded artists trekking through the mud and rain in January to play for traditional longsword."

exactly!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:17 PM

But she's not quite as good as Phil Beer!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:25 PM

"But she's not quite as good as Phil Beer!!!!!!!!!!!! "

she's not as good as Dave Swarbrick either, but that, only because Beer and Swarbrick have been in the business longer. Give her time, give her time.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Greg B
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:37 PM

She should, however, kidnap our Martin (Ellison, not Carthy) as her
permanent melodeon player. The lad on the above-referenced BBC
video had terrible bellows control.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:44 PM

She was wonderful at Saddleworth.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:47 PM

I'd agree there Greg - Even though we have disagreed quite a lot over the last few hours:-) Martin is one of the finest box players I have seen (and heard!) for a long time. Come back to Swinton, Martin, even if it is on your own!

D.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:56 PM

Eliza has collaborated with Martin Ellison, on Heat Light & Sound.
And with Saul Rose, Tim Van Eyken, John Spiers, Chango Spasiuk and loads of others I can't be arsed to think of.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Kampervan
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:58 PM

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael - PM
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:25 PM

"But she's not quite as good as Phil Beer!!!!!!!!!!!! "

"she's not as good as Dave Swarbrick either, but that, only because Beer and Swarbrick have been in the business longer. Give her time, give her time. !!!!!!!"



Sorry mate, I think that the next ice age will come before she ever gets that good.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Tootler
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 03:35 PM

But try as I might, I just think that their sprog is an o.k. singer who just happened to get a leg up.

Being whose daughter she is might have helped with contacts etc. in the early days, but there comes a time when you survive on your own abilities or not at all. The fact that she is still thriving says it all.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 03:43 PM

When she's good, as on most of her Waterson/Carthy work, she's an expressive genius.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 03:57 PM

So, the upshot of it is that Kampervan does not think Eliza is that good.

Noted.

And Kampervan will not be persuaded otherwise, not in a million years (ice-age references etc).

Noted.


What shall we do now? Anyone for tiddlywinks?

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:17 PM

I suppose we could all post our lists of other performers we think are over-rated ...would that be educational?

Personally I'd rather watch paint dry, but each to their own.

Anne

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Kampervan
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:29 PM

Hey guys, that's cool.

I started this thread thread to find out if anyone agreed with me or not.

It would seem that not many do.

O.K., now I know.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:35 PM

If you simply started the thread to find out whether anyone agreed with you about her talents, perhaps it's time to apologise for this:

"she ponces around like a prima donna, holding court where lesser mortals approach at their peril."

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:39 PM

I'll try that again.
http://www.4shared.com/file/21072661/88517185/01_-_WCCelticConn_01.html

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Kampervan
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:39 PM

Well, if you want me to be totally honest I would substitute 'behaves' for 'ponces'.

As observed at a couple of late night festival sessions three years ago.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: van lingle
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:43 PM

I personally don't care how she got where she is I'm just thankful we have the gift of her music.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:47 PM

Well, I've always found her lovely.

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,cookieless folkiedave
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 05:03 PM

She is so like a prima donna she plays for the Goathland Plough Stotts on their annual outing going around Goathland with them all day long.

IMHO she is genuinely pleasant and ~I was with her late at night at a festival a year or two ago - she was great fun......

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 05:40 PM

The only thing that Eliza got from her parents is her talent - how could she not? She has always been completely her own person (from age 2 onwards). Yes, she carries the name; yes, she plays with her, already established and revered, parents. But she is an unstoppable, indefatigable powerhouse of energy and innovation who appeals to many (maybe alienates a few) and bellows the cause of English music from the rooftops.
From what arrogant stance does someone come along and ask if she's any "good" and suggest that she's only popular because of her parentage ("primarily cos of her mum and dad")?
Of course she's bloody "good" - whatever the hell that means - she may not be to everyone's taste but that's another matter entirely.
Kampervan, your assertion is not "heresy" - it's just plain ignorant and offensive.
Martin Ellison

Subject: RE: Is Eliza Carthy really that good?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 05:54 PM

Maybe people should have a look at this.