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Chord Req: tunes in E minor
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Subject: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST,not very good guitar player Date: 08 Aug 07 - 03:52 AM Hello Help please What chords should one play (on a geetar) to accompany tunes in E Minor? Thanks |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: s&r Date: 08 Aug 07 - 03:56 AM Depends on the tune. The one that's a good bet is Em. Stu |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: s&r Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:05 AM Missing out exotic chords these are common: Em G Am Bm C D Stu |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST,doc.tom Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:05 AM If it really is a minor tune, is it Melodic minor, or Harmonic minor? If it is actually Dorian mode, try: Em,F#dim, G, Am, Bm, C, & D. Tom |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST,not very good guitar player Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:06 AM Did I say E minor I think I meant E Flat (oops) Thanks s&r I 'd already worked out that Em would be one of them. I guess what I'm after is a set of chords that I can pick from depending what tune is being played but the tunes will be in E flat (why I don't know) |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST,not very good guitar player Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:11 AM Thanks guys I'll give those a go......what's F#dim? (I said I'm not a very good guitar player) |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: The Sandman Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:12 AM IN TRADITONAL MUSIC,E dorian,e fsh, g,a, b, csh, d.is often mistakenly referred to as Eminor,as well as Toms chords youcould try E modal,ebebbe like eminor but using pinky,on g string fourth fret,and long A , e a e,a e a.Dick Miles |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: s&r Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:14 AM This is good but not user friendly Eb is the same chords that you woould use in E but a semitone lower, eg E becomes Eb; F#m becomes Fm; G#m becomes Gm; A becomes Ab; B7 becomes Bb7; C#m becomes Cm; Ddim becomes Db dim etc etc Stu |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: s&r Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:18 AM For Eb on a guitar, play with a capo on fret 1, and use D shapes eg with capo, D becomes Eb G becomes Ab and so on. Eb is a hard key to play in standard tuning. Some instuments are pitched in Eb; are you playing with other instruments? Stu |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST,not very good guitar player Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:23 AM This is great, but sadly I'm a music theory moron. But I'll get there!Determination is the key word |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST,not very good guitar player Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:27 AM Yes Stu, things like concertinas and melodians. The idea of using a capo makes sense (note to self: buy a capo). I don't know why they insist on playing in this key when they've got fully whatsit instruments but they always gravitate towards it. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: s&r Date: 08 Aug 07 - 05:39 AM Concertinas and melodeons tend to be in D G A keys. Eb would be unusual. I wonder if your original Em was the one you want? Give us som examples of the tunes that are played - on Mudcat someone will know the accompaniment and point you in the right direction. Where are you? Stu |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST,not very good guitar player Date: 08 Aug 07 - 06:58 AM Ah well that's a problem they just told me to learn the accompanyment but not the names of the tunes, Doh! But now I have some idea, when next I meet with them I may be able to do something. I'm in the dreaded Hull! |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: The Sandman Date: 08 Aug 07 - 07:38 AM its much more likely its e dorian than eb. eminor, dmajor, fsh dim make a d 7 shape,then put a finger on g string first fret, dont play strings 6 and5., and the other chords Tom suggested.,Practice them in different combinations. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: Lucius Date: 08 Aug 07 - 08:56 AM If you really insist in playing in Eb with a concertina in D, then the only song that fits is "Judentanz" by Jacob Newsleider. Granted, it hasn't been popular in about four centuries, but it will work. I'll go get my coffee. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST,doc.tom Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:10 PM F#dim. is Eff sharp diminished. Major chords are a minor third on top of a major third: e.g. C(4semitones/frets)E(3 semitones/frets) G. Minor chords are a major third on top of a minor third: e.g C(3 semitones/frets)Eb(4 semitones/frets)G. Diminished chords are a minor third on top of a minor third: e.g. C(3semitones/frets)Eb (3semitones/frets)Gb. They fall on the seventh degree of a major scale - and then there's Jazz! Tom |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: Cluin Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:14 PM Lots of bluesy tunes with just the chords Em and B7. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: Betsy Date: 08 Aug 07 - 07:18 PM Which twat plays tunes in E Flat ?? Preserve us . |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST Date: 08 Aug 07 - 07:36 PM >>Which twat plays tunes in E Flat ?? Preserve us . This twat does. When I play with people who play jazz on keyboards or blowing instruments I play in Eb or Bb becuase they tend to. In my view it seems better to play in the same keys that the people I play with play in rather than not - polytonality is ok for Miles Davis but I find it hard to understand and do. Mostly I play guitar but - with capo or without - all keys are pretty much of a muchness. When I played piano on a friend's tune a while back I found what fun it is to improvise in F#. On a mandolin I can see the attraction of D G A C and relative minors but I can't really see the problem in playing in any key - it's just scales isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST,Captain Colin Date: 08 Aug 07 - 08:15 PM Guest: Hard to know what you're driving at but I'll weigh in. Assuming you're not having us all on, the chords you would use for a simple "three-chord" song (such as a blues, or When The Saints Go Marching In, and a million others) in E flat would be E flat, A flat and B flat seven. If you're playing jazz, standards etc then the chord sequences of the tunes you have in mind very likely extend beyond that. You just have to find out the chords sequence for each piece in advance. Chords are chords, a pianist will use the same name for chords as a guitarist. Ask the pianist what they are for each piece and write them down or learn them piece by piece. Just chiming in without preparation and playing the "right chords" in such cases is a difficult skill to acquire- no answer on this forum or any other will magically enable you to do get near it. I may be miles off the mark but hope this helps. Good luck. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST,not very good guitar player Date: 09 Aug 07 - 04:16 AM Playing the right chords is a most difficult thing to do (even in Jazz)and I guess that the more I practice playing with others, in whatever key, the easier it will be. There's no substitue for practice as my owld dad used to say, as long as the people I'll be playing with have patience...........oh yeah and then there's this thing called rythme.................................... Thanks for all the suggestions |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: deadfrett Date: 09 Aug 07 - 08:34 AM Hello Guest- Uh, if your mates play in Eb quite a bit just lower your guitar tuning a half step lower. That puts you in Eb. Use your new capo, only raise all positions one fret. Cheers |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: Nick Date: 09 Aug 07 - 09:14 AM Couple of other thoughts. If you want to get a fantastic book on harmonising tunes with a load of theory and a load of useful info get hold of Eric Roche's book 'The Acoustic Guitar Bible'. In one part he takes the tune 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Star' and harmonises it in very different ways - from the expected 'right' way to a very, very different version with passing chords, suspensions, inversions etc thrown in. Most useful thing on the harmonising of tunes I have ever come across. The other person you might listen to is someone like Denny Bartlett from Last Night's Fun who accompanies mostly in DADGAD. I learnt a lot from watching and chatting to him as his approach was very different to my 'playing the right chord' approach that I had up to then. Both of the above have added a greater degree of freedom to my playing and thinking. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 09 Aug 07 - 11:25 AM A modicum of communication can substitute for hours of trying to get pieces by ear. Zero in the kindliest, most informed person in the group and see if you can't get a list of tune names key it's in. (This is usually, but not always, the first chord.) time - is it 3/4, 4/4, 6/8. This will tell you what strums to use. Actually, if I were you, I would look for a friendlier group. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: Nick Date: 09 Aug 07 - 12:48 PM We're still not quite sure what sort of tunes or music we are talking about which makes it a bit tricky. I agree that if someone wants you to play with them it's courteous to offer a guide to chords unless you play with a group of people who just expect you to know. If you are playing in a less formal environment it's sometimes fun to experiment and play chords that aren't necessarily 'right' but create a tension in the music that either works or doesn't. People react one of several ways to that - they either tell you you are playing it wrong or go with the flow and experiment. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: Artful Codger Date: 09 Aug 07 - 04:30 PM Remember that the topic is E (or Eb) minor. Some of you are clouding the issue by thinking in terms of E/Eb major. E minor is the relative minor to G major; it's not an uncommon key at all, nor particularly difficult to play in. Note that all open strings fall on notes in the natural E minor scale. Eb minor (6 flats!) is highly unlikely for your situation. It's not a typical key for any common folk instrument--and certainly not an easy key for concertinas or melodeons of any flavor. I believe Lucius was trying to make this point elliptically with his "Judentanz" reference. "Der Juden Tanz" (The Jewish Dance) was written in the 16th century by Hans Neusidler (not Jacob Newsleider). Its melody is in C# (Myxolydian?) while the harmony is in D--think Darius Milhaud anticipated by a few centuries. In other words, if you were to accompany concertinas and melodeons in Eb minor, the effect would be jarring, since you clearly wouldn't be playing in the same key as the rest. [Note that for an Eb wind instrument, Eb minor would require a fingering with 3 flats. A Bb instrument would require 4. E minor would be fingered with 3 or 4 sharps. Neither would be a typical selection for a wind-based group, so we can dispense with that red herring.] |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: s&r Date: 09 Aug 07 - 05:16 PM The topic was never Ebm - there was some confusion as to whether the key was Eb or Em. A better clue to key is the finishing note/chord - some tunes lead in on a dominant for instance# Stu |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST Date: 09 Aug 07 - 06:15 PM It was about Em and then Eb - one presumes minor so it was about Ebm too It's a wind up thread
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: Artful Codger Date: 10 Aug 07 - 03:28 PM Eb is still an unlikely key for a group with concertinas to play in, particularly if they're Anglo concertinas. With the English system, the basic scale still alternates sides consistently, so it's not terribly difficult with practice, but for the normal repertoire, it's an uncommon key. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: Jack Campin Date: 10 Aug 07 - 04:22 PM It seems the Neusiedler "Judentanz" was notated in scordatura and somebody misunderstood the notation. It isn't really bitonal at all. There is a similar one in the Scottish lute repertoire, a "Gypsie Lilt" with a mindblowing chord that Wagner would have found startling. If you reckon that the tablature writer simply got the wrong string by mistake it sounds perfectly normal for the period. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST,not very good guitar player Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:24 AM No Guest this is not a wind up thread I'm not very gen'd up on musical theory. Something that I must remedy and will. Thanks for all you help guys |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: Jack Campin Date: 11 Aug 07 - 02:46 PM Melodeons have bass buttons. The right chords for the guitar will the same as whatever the melodeon is doing. So ask. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: Roughyed Date: 11 Aug 07 - 06:07 PM If you are playing guitar and want to play in E flat I always prefer putting my capo on the third fret and playing in C shapes. So C is E flat, F is A flat and G is B flat. F minor becomes D minor, G minor becomes E minor and so on. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST Date: 12 Aug 07 - 02:50 PM Good Captain,in your post of 8 Aug. you say "put a finger on the g string"-thats already occupied by my middle finger on the 2nd fret(A) in a D7 shape. Surely you mean a finger on the D string 1st fret (E flat)? This gives the classic diminished shape that can be played right up the fingerboard on the top(thinner)4 strings. I think it'll be a long time before a beginner needs a diminished chord-still,useful to know anyway. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: The Sandman Date: 12 Aug 07 - 08:18 PM yes,you are correct ,I must have ben tired .DOC TOM mentioned the diminished chord ,so Ithought the easiest way to explain was a shape. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: smallpiper Date: 16 Aug 07 - 07:04 PM This is interesting! |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: Gulliver Date: 16 Aug 07 - 10:07 PM Yes, an interesting wind-up thread! |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST,martin ellison Date: 17 Aug 07 - 04:09 AM Just a thought - it couldn't be that the tune players told you to go away and learn tunes in Eb to prevent you from accompanying could it? Probably not - you seem like a nice enough chap. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: smallpiper Date: 19 Aug 07 - 05:11 AM ? why whould this be a wind-up? |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST,not very good guitar player Date: 19 Aug 07 - 05:13 AM I thank you for all your help on this matter. You are right smallpiper why would this be a wind-up? I need the information so that I can learn and the people are genuine it's just that they live 2 hours away from me at the moment. Thanks guys and gals |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST Date: 19 Aug 07 - 02:53 PM It would be a wind up because.. It's a thread which having started doesn't want an answer When people ask questions like - * what tunes there isn't an answer * eb and melodeons which doesn't happen etc etc The post that gives you away is - "Ah well that's a problem they just told me to learn the accompanyment but not the names of the tunes, Doh! But now I have some idea, when next I meet with them I may be able to do something. I'm in the dreaded Hull!" It's an obvious pisstake What has From: GUEST,not very good guitar player learnt from this? Hopefully to ask a question that |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: Gulliver Date: 21 Aug 07 - 09:12 PM Why is this a wind-up? 'Cos no-one can be as thick as "GUEST,not very good guitar player"! |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: GUEST,martin ellison Date: 22 Aug 07 - 04:46 AM Reply to Gulliver: That comment is just inexcusably rude. Weren't we all "thick" when we started learning the basics? When did you progress from "thick" to ignorant? "guest, not very good guitar player" was asking for assistance and perhaps encouragement presumably from people whom s/he thought could offer it. You'd be surprised how many Eb/Bb melodeons come up for sale on ebay and it sounds like s/he is talking about a specific clique of musicians - not the wider "norm". Anonymous Guest asks: "What has GUEST,not very good guitar player learnt from this?" - Probably to seek advice somewhere less intimidating. Martin Ellison |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: The Borchester Echo Date: 22 Aug 07 - 05:30 AM Who plays in Em? (or in E flat which, contrary to an apparent popular belief is not the same thing at all and isn't what was asked). Well if you don't you miss out a lot of good tunes. And, as someone said, whichever key is fairly irrelevant, it's just scales, innit? Take, for example, the extremely well-known Rochdale Coconut Dance in Em: Em Am Bm C D repeat with the B part going G Am D G Am D G D C D G Not hard. It's inexplicity fashionable among a few to boast that they know nothing of music theory. But no-one would walk onstage and attempt to act without a command of the grammar of the language the play was written in. Would they? I'm not a very good guitar player either. I feel compelled to work out and write out chords first even when I'm fairly certain by ear (or from the key mentions, if it is) what they should be. I think that's a better plan than just just joining in blindly, apparently oblivious to the key other people are playing in. That's what I call thick, not raising head above parapet and inquiring where to start. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: TheSnail Date: 22 Aug 07 - 07:30 AM Just to confuse GUEST,not very good guitar player even more, I was a bit surprised that Captain Birdseye said that E minor in folk music was usually E dorian. In my experience it is usually E aeolian like the Rochdale Coconut Dance that Diane mentions above. C natural not C sharp. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: Nick Date: 22 Aug 07 - 07:40 AM It's a curious thread because it is no further on than when it started. If 'not a very good guitar' player would like to help us help him I'm sure people would. It seems - but I'm by no means sure - that he/she plays occasionally with a group of melodeon (?) players who play in some key that might be Em or Eb but might not be I guess. There is no means of communication between these people and the person from Hull - noone has a telephone or email or point of contact. Noone will apparently tell someone who has very (self professed) limited musical knowledge the names of any of the tunes and yet somehow imagine that he/she will 'just know the accompaniments'. There isn't even the slightest hint of what sort of music we are talking about. I play in sessions a certain amount and am reasonably competent at picking up the harmonic structure of a piece as I go but that is through playing with a fiddler most weeks who comes along with a new set of tunes each week and says 'I think the first is in D and then two jigs in G' or whatever (often the aren't but that's by the way). If you are not used to doing that then they may be expecting too much of you and you may find it a less than comfortable experience. I'm with leeneia that I think you could find a more helpful bunch of players - if you are in Hull I suggest you might try some of the sessions in Beverley where you will find plenty of people who will be helpful and a number who are regular mudcatters. It's all a bit odd. Or you could perhaps ask a few questions like what are the tunes called? what key do you play in? etc and then come back with some info and people will help. I have never found mudcat intimidating but you need to help people to help you and then they will. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: The Borchester Echo Date: 22 Aug 07 - 08:08 AM To deconfuse a bit, E Dorian is if you play just the 'white notes' from E to E (tone-semitone-T-T-T-s-T). Think Bacca Pipes The Aeolian mode is exactly the same thing as the minor scale, based round the relative natural scale of A (T-s-T-T-s-T-T). Think Stairway to Heaven. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: The Sandman Date: 22 Aug 07 - 08:13 AM SNAIL E Dorian is pretty common,Morrisons jig,Trip to kilavil,The arran boat[air]TheBoatman[air],Ill go and enlist for a sailor[Cotswold Morris Sherborne],Bog an lochan[strathspey] to name a few.,in my experience E aeolian is less common,but it does occur. The important thing is that you dont have to use an e minor chord,You can use a dyad[two note chord]consisting of root and fifth doubled,I call it Emodal,and it is not difficult in standard tuning.,It can be SUBSTITUTED for Emajor, or an E MINOR CHORD. |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: Nick Date: 22 Aug 07 - 08:20 AM Not to be pedantic, Diane, but the white notes from E to E on a piano would be a phrygian mode wouldn't it? (S-T-T-T-S-T-T) - D to D on the white notes would be dorian (T-S-T-T-T-S-T). Unless you have some of the black notes and white notes in a different order on your piano :) |
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Subject: RE: Chord Req: tunes in E minor From: The Sandman Date: 22 Aug 07 - 08:22 AM Diane ,E dorian is not what you described,It has two sharps f#c#,unlike E major[which has 4 sharps] it does not have g# or d#.what you describe sounds more like D dorian,starting on the piano at d and playing all the white noteto the next d. What defines dorian mode is the major scale, altered by flattening the third and the seventh.takeE major[4#]flatten the third g#and the seventh d#,and youhave it.Dick Miles |
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