A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims

Subject: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Apr 99 - 11:53 PM

Today's tragic event in Colorado brings pain to us all. The victms of it are not just the one's who were shot, but also their families and friends. And the list goes on: Other kids who saw too much and their circle of friends and family; the staff for the same; EMS workers and police and the circles surrounding them, sure it's their job but.....; and as a foster parent, I've had kids with great parents who are candidates to be the perps and I've had kids with the worst of parents and have overcome the abuses they have had put upon them...my point is that the parents of the perpetrators might be people like yourself and they, along with their circle, are suffering tonight too. Perhaps we all are.

We are music people...We believe in the power of music. What song or songs would you sing and give to all of these victims to help in the healing process of this life altering event. This is not a thread about politics, societal order, violence, religion, or even parenting. As Karen and I have seen many sides to family situations, we have come to see that there but for grace are we...and possibly you too.

So how about it 'Catters? Have we got a song or two for Colorado's victims?

catspaw

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 12:05 AM

Thanks "Paw". The only one that keeps running through my head is the song "Healing River" by Fred Hellerman and Fran Minkoff. Pete Seeger sang it right after the bodies of Goodman, Schwerner, and Chaney had been found. If anyone knows the lyrics (or can remember them) it's a powerful song for this sad day.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Night Owl
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 12:19 AM

" How Can I Keep From Singing"-on the database from "Turning Toward The Morning" album.

My life flows on in endless song

Above earth's lamentation

I hear the real, though far off hymn

That hails the new creation

Above the tumult and the strife

I hear the music ringing

It sounds an echo in my soul

How can I keep from singing.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Night Owl
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 12:29 AM

"How Can I...."- I'm thinking about tonight, because when events in my own life were too horrific to comprehend, just as events in Colorado are now, this album and more particularly, this song gave me solace.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 12:35 AM

"That's not my Colorado
With the blue skies up above,
That's not my Colorado,
Where the school ran with blood.

That's not my Colorado
Where my parents grew up proud
That's not my Colorado
Senseless killing was not allowed.

Colorado was the beauty
Of the Rocky Mountains high
Colorado was the quiet
Of the river's gentle sigh.

Colorado meant a home to me
And now, I know it not
That's not my Colorado
Where the children felt the shot."

kathleen lafrance 4-20-99

Well, phoaks, it's not a song and not the best I've ever written, but it comes from my heart which is heavy with sorrow for all the parents, children, educators and everyone else involved and for my ancestral home.

Just plain Kat, tonight there is no laughter

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 12:47 AM

Thank you Katie, well done.

catspaw

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 01:08 AM

I am sick with grief for these families, these children, their parents and for our society. What has happened to our children, where is their hope? I want so much to use my talent for putting thoughts and feelings into words, to describe something, or contribute to a solution...........but words fail me. I have no ideas and I am crying for the victims, the perps and their families. And I am crying for us..............

"When will we ever learn? When will we ever learn"

Mick

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: LEJ
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 01:57 AM

It's not fair to blame our state for this thing. This is a disease that is spreading throughout our nation. And the disease is not just violence, it is an increasing blur between what is right and what is wrong. Perhaps it is failure on the part of us, the parents, to pass on to our children a sense of the sanctity of life. Perhaps it is the action of two soulless maniacs.

If this sounds rambling and disconnected, it probably is. We are stunned and wounded in Colorado. And we are giving blood, and we are praying. We are searching our souls.The good people here far outway the evil, but we have lost a battle, and badly. But you waste precious time lamenting Colorado's loss of innocence. Spend that time holding your children close.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 02:14 AM

Hi Leej,

I think you and kat are on the same page. I think it is difficult NOT too lament a little for the innocence lost by us all. In your backyard or on the other side of the world we are a different place now than as before.

But as I said, this thread is about healing and songs and perhaps the one that Mick used above is one that ties both thoughts together.

Thank You Mick...the song can heal, but it speaks the truth about the human condition too.

catspaw

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Vixen
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 08:27 AM

I've been thinking of "how can I keep from singing" and of a newer song by Chris and Meredith Thompson, "not in our town:"

We all said

Not in this place

Not in this town

...

Will we ever see the sunshine

In our town again?

V

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: bet
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 09:06 AM

Great thoughts all. I have no song, things are to close to home living in Colorado and being an educator. Hug your kids today. Don't give up, keep trying.

bet

Subject: Lyr Add: SONG FOR A FRIEND (John Stewart)
From: Allan C.
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 09:14 AM

I am reminded of the song John Stewart wrote on the death of JFK. It would take very little "tweaking" to be made into an appropriate song for this sad occasion.

SONG FOR A FRIEND
John Stewart

When you sit and wonder why things have gone so wrong
And you wish someone would tell us where our friend has gone.
Look then in the hills when there's courage in the wind
And in the face of freedom and those who look to him.
And search within the heart of ev'ry young man with a song
Then I think we'll know where our friend has gone.

Summer takes the winter as the good years take the pain.
There'll be laughter in the land again but hearts won't be the same.
And I know I'll remember when a chill wind takes the sky
And speak of the years he gave us hope for they will never die.
And as we gaze at brave young men when yesterdays grow long,
Then I think we'll know where our friend has gone.

When you sit and wonder why things have gone so wrong.
It's then that we'll remember where our friend has gone.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Max
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 10:45 AM

Kat,

Great song, Any tune?

LEJ,

....This is a disease that is spreading throughout our nation....

You are right and I think that some of the blame must go to our leaders.
Now the term "Read my Lips" means "I'm Lying"
How much of the "No new taxes" went to bail out the Savings and Loans, and not so indirectly into Neil's bank account?
It's OK to cheat on your wife - If you're the President.
It's OK to illegally sell arms if "I did it for America".

That's what we are teaching our kids "Sure it's OK to Lie and Cheat and Kill"- No wonder they grow up confused and feeling that they can't win.

Bert.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 11:26 AM

Bert/Max?

I am confused. Which are you? I'm guessing it's you, Bert.

Thank you very much. Sorry, no tune, it really just was a spontaneous poem. Please feel free to use it with a tune if you can think of one and want to.

I know what you mean about our leaders. I just heard on NPR that Congress wants to build up the military for the Yugoslavia campaign by using Social Security surplus money! (I am wondering what surplus, since they've been saying it's going bust for years.)

Sorry, I don't think this should be a political thread. I promise not to write anymore of that.

Some may read my words as a condemnation of Colorado. I did not intend it to sound that way. One could substitute Colorado for any other state or country. It is a sickness throughout our world and I am in despair to understand it.

To my sister and nephew, in school in Colorado, I say stay safe and love each other well.

kat

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Penny
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 11:37 AM

And on a market street in Brixton,
Nails driven into innocence again.
And with no meaning, for no reason,
Blood pools until it's washed away by rain.

Across the world, more brief lives lights gone,
As metal rips through muscle and through brain.
A school stained by that unlearned lesson
We never learn, despite the old refrain.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Penny
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 11:38 AM

No tune. Yet.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Max
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 11:43 AM

Kat,

Yes, It's Bert. I'm using Max's machine.
I'll just try to sing it and see what comes out.

Bert.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Alice
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 11:54 AM

Shame on America. As the Pope has pointed out, we have a culture of death.
What Did You Learn In School Today?
Tom Paxton
"I learned that war is not so bad,
I learned of the great ones we have had,
We fought in Germany and in France,
And someday I might get my chance.

American parents need to stop turning their backs on their obligations to their kids. When you have kids, you have to realize that you have made a choice to meet the obligation of raising those children yourself, because it is YOU, mom and dad, not a babysitter that needs to spend the majority of time with them. It is YOU, not the teachers, that ultimately need to teach them values, morality, and ethics. (getting off my soapbox now)

Subject: Lyr Add: PUT THE GUNS AWAY
From: Frank Howe
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 12:05 PM

I am particularly worried about the coverage of this and other events. We feed the next crisis by focusing on the dreadful impact the sick few have had on the rest. In doing so we validate their belief in the importance of their behavior and their sick notion of notoriety through violence

I've tried to say that in the lines below

PUT THE GUNS AWAY

When our children turn to violence
What lessons can they know?
When our children die in classrooms
Where can they safely go?

Which parents need our solace?
Which parents warrant blame?
When our children turn to violence
We share it all the same

Those sad few who use weapons
To seek revenge or twisted fame
Are but pathetic remnants
Of a spirit with no flame

We will not endorse their sickness
With relivings of that day
We will love and heal our children
And put the guns away

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Margo
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 12:12 PM

Oh boy. I think that it is a gift from God to not feel everyone's pain. We'd go crazy. But when something like this happens, it is haunting.

I agree with the above statement that kids are growing up confused. I believe that such a killer mentality has been nurtured by the loss of moral standards. In colonial America a man was hanged for having sex with animals. That's extreme in my book, but there must be a medium, a balance.

The wonderful shanty "The Flying Cloud" is a perfect example of desensitization step by step. First, William accepts the offer to go on a slaving voyage to Africa. Perhaps he didn't realize the horror he had agreed to perpetrate. "Scarce eighteen inches to a man was all they had to go" he admits. Disease killed half of five hundred of the Negros they had taken from Africa. "We dragged their bodies up on deck and hove them in the sea". Can you imagine such a horror? Then William agrees to sail under the pirate flag sinking and plundering ships, and drowning their crews to silence them. After being condemned to die for his crimes he warns other young men, saying "for whiskey and bad company first made a wretch of me".

I think the song is easily applicable today. Desensitzation occurs step by step as children are exposed to horribly violent scenes in movies and in video games. No longer is a schoolteacher a figure of authority. The teachers have lost their ability to maintain disclipine. They might get sued and lose their jobs!

Gone are the days when boys and girls are taught to be gracious and courtious. A friend of mine related a story to me about her mother teaching 6th grade. The kids were nasty. They'd hold out their pens as she walked by and mark up her clothes. When I was in school, we'd never even dream of doing something like that!

Sorry about the tirade. It's so tragic. God help the victim's families. Surely the slain lambs are with our heavenly father.

Margie

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: LEJ
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 12:53 PM

I want to apologize to Kat for interpreting her song as a criticism of Colorado. I know she feels the pain of this as I do.I also think Frank's words are very wise. I am avoiding the news reports and rehash of this thing today, because there is too much pain in the details of it, and I don't think any more information about what happened will bring me closer to understanding it. I only pray for peace for the souls of the kids that died, and for their parents, and for all of you.

LEJ

Subject: Lyr Add: NO TOMORROW FOR THE POOR^^
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 01:46 PM

I don't really find it so hard to believe that those with no hope for a future or those that have been either physically or mentally abused would carry out acts that shock. Not much notice goes to the violence that is experienced in our slum districts that lay in the shadows of wealth & power.

Alice, as an American parent, I'm offended by your statements that we bear the blame here. I'm sure you were expressing a raw gut feeling rather that a statement that was thought through. I know many others that don't rely on schools/baby-sitters for the nourishment of their children. That was not a very fair statement.

I see our schools as a reflection of our priorities. Teachers receive low pay. towns don't want to support a system if it means they're taxed. Discipline is more of a concern than education. The taunting, bullying & abuse that students suffer at the hands of other students is criminal but looked on with a blind eye & a turned back. I live in a town where the Superintendent of Schools just dragged a 9-yr.-old kid off a bus by the neck pinned him over a car & screamed at him. Why? Because the bus driver had a hard time with some of the other kids before this kid ever boarded. This is assault & battery, but within school systems, this is common. The bus is now empty. Both kids & parents are in fear. This fear & the fear of physical abuse by others that is allowed to continue unchecked is felt by many students & parents on a daily basis, but it takes a tragedy before some will take notice & then the causes & effects are studied, probed & processed & then forgotten.

Though I can see how these things happen, I can't understand the wasting of young life through either neglect or murder. It's as much a crime when a kid is a victim as it is when the grown kid victimizes another & yet we know this is a cycle. Does the kid as a victim get the aid needed (or the protection beforehand) so they won't victimize or does the grown kid receive the consequences of their actions (or chain reactions) when it's to late to do anyone any good?

I've posted this song before. The only difference in the background of the song would be that this tragic scene happened in the burbs & the focus of my song was the inner city.

NO TOMORROW FOR THE POOR by Barry Finn
Tune: Virginia Lags, Traditional

Inside the ghettos dwells the greatest of crimes
Where kids with no hope are serving their time
Where they're shocked into feeling that life has no price
They live and they die no tomorrow

With no higher learning, no place they can turn
They see daily the wealth from crime they can earn
They're under the gun every time that they turn
And we ask why they have no values

Their language is foreign; their culture is strange
There's slight chance for survival outside of a gang
To get life from drugs beats the pain of no change
There's no light at the end of their tunnel

There's abuse of all kinds that runs rampage with rage
And the cycle runs deeper with each passing age
Until lock them away is all we can say
They've been locked away all of their young lives

We'll draw cheap labor from them that'll slave
And watch while we help the rest into the grave
Keep them from good health, good schools, and good wage
And hope that there isn't a backlash

So now let us finish and shake hands with our fate
And don't be surprised when you're a victim of hate
What they've been robbed of to you they'll relate
You'll be hunted as prey by your victim


Copyright, Barry Finn 1997

Barry, who's for education with compassion.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 01:49 PM

Leej, I am sorry, too. I skipped right to bet's pos this morning, after going to bed last night and missed your earlier post altogether and so was kinda surprised at teh email this a.m. I am sorry it came off that way.

I, too, have avoided the "gory details"; the horror of being a prent and still not knowing, this morning, the fate of my child, would be too much to bear. I cannot help them by wallowing in the medai coverage. Better we should all pray/meditate.

Alie, you are absolutely right. My three sisters are all schoolteachers. We have all seen sucha decline in what children are taught at home about respect, responsibility, and ethics. The same parents who complain and expect teachers to do it all these days are also the ones who are too lazy or undisciplined to actively take part int ehir kids lives through monitoring what they are exposed to in the movies and television. Those parents want our government to guarantee federal censorship because they can't be bothered to do it themselves. I think they've all forgotten how to say no and that their tvs have off buttons. And computers, too!

I am sorry, this is a raw nerve.

kat

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From:
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 01:51 PM

I've been thinking for several hours now of all the anti-war songs I know. There are many very powerful ones. One of my favorites is THE CHILDREN DRAW GUNS, which is in the database.
It makes me think on the war in Bosnia. The very same things have been going on there for ten years, yet we pay no attention because they are thousands of miles away. Yet for the people there, the sorrow and shock is just as great as it is here, and in some ways it is far worse. But still we ignore their pain and focus on our own lives. What happened yesterday is a blessing, in the sense that it gives us a chance to put this into perspective. I don't wish to minimize the pain of those in Littleton, but I think this incident tells us something not only about ourselves, but about the world at large.
Just something to think about.

Jennifer Burdoo

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Frank Howe
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 01:59 PM

I teach future teachers. Yesterday as the events in Colorado were unfolding, I had to meet with 20 students who were about to go out into schools for a three week practical experience. It was a very difficult meeting. Dedicated caring young people had to pause and give serious consideration to the question "Do I really want to do this" not because the job is tough or underpaid we know that, we're used to that - their worries were ... 'can it happen to me?'

We reassured ourselves and reaffirmed the belief in the importance of what we do .... but for while as educators we were asking ourselves questions I thought only soldiers or police officers asked.

It was a sad day.

Subject: Lyr Add: A DIFFERENT KIND
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 02:44 PM

A DIFFERENT KIND

Taken from the cradle, you bent them to your will,
Born for you to sacrifice, whilst teaching them to kill.
You taught them how to use the gun, the knife, the hands, the heart,
Children of obedience, they've learnt to play their part.
Do they call you father, Hitler of Saddam?
You nurture their dependence, they act at your command,
The history of their nation, distorted and confused,
While they keep asking questions, you see they're yours to use.

Watch them grow but keep in mind,
The power of your destruction, is building from behind.
Heartless souls have leaned to find,
That the murder of their innocence, has bred; a different kind.

But when the rage is over, the wind is blowing cold,
Do you think they'll put away the toys they know of old?
Returning to their families, a viper in the nest,
You'll find they'll teach their loved ones to skills that they know best.
A country born of murder, a country born of lust,
Rallying together, where can you place your trust?
There are no moral boundaries, living in your land,
They won't accept surrender by the raising of your hand.

Watch them grow but keep in mind,
The power of your destruction, is building from behind.
Heartless souls have leaned to find,
That the murder of their innocence, has bred; a different kind.

You chose to fuel the furnace, you chose to use the small,
They did the fighting for you, whilst you hid behind closed doors.
Machines of your destruction, you failed to see had grown,
Turning now to face you are the seeds that you had sown.
No longer seen as savior, leader or their God,
They seek to overthrow you and feed you to the dogs.
They'll fight and kill to gain the prize, awarded to the few,
Is it with pride, you turn to see they've grown to be like you?

Watch them grow but keep in mind,
The power of your destruction, is building from behind.
Heartless souls have leaned to find,
That the murder of their innocence, has bred; a different kind.

Watch them grow but keep in mind,
The power of your destruction, is building from behind.
Heartless souls have leaned to find,
That the murder of their innocence, has bred; a different kind.

Katrina Gall 1998.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 04:00 PM

I find the laying of blame here in the parents lap very short sighted & to excuse any system, including the school system of having any fault in the decline of the Modern Empire just as short. The raising of children includes us all & all systems should have the rights & needs of all children parmount to any other concern. "It Takes A Village To Raise A Child" is no mire quip, it's a map to the future. Please be more sensitive to those of us that are trying not to raise monsters. Barry

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Lion
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 04:13 PM

No songs from me, just an observation. Aren't we all sick at heart? We pride ourselves on being, perhaps, the most civilized nation in the world, with our BMWs and cell phones and all the "privileges" imaginable. Yet, where are the mothers, fathers, grandfathers, grandmothers, etc. who should be standing up and saying enough already. When it was apparently obvious that these kids at Columbine High were so disturbed, someone, anyone, should have tackled them head on. I mean, to actually say something, anything to let these kids know that someone recognized something was "up" and that they were willing to do something about it. We all have to take responsibility, after all we seem to be good people, or at least here in the safety of the "net" (Mudcat). Why is it so hard to be the person who stands up for what is right and what you know in your gut is right. Why do we just walk away and think that someone else will do it.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Frank Howe
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 04:23 PM

Barry, Yes we are all in this together and as a society must work towards creating and nurturing a climate that supports the growth and development of our children. As a society we have evidenced some glaring flaws in our efforts to do so. But no matter what insults or assualts an imperfect society unleashes on my children (and there are many - just turn on the TV), if they are at home making pipe bombs and sawing the barrels off shotguns - and I as a parent am unaware or fail to respond, then I as a parent own the lion's share of the blame.

I am a parent. I know the pressures and concerns of my children, I know who their friends are. I advocate for their wellbeing at every opportunity. If they have a bad day, I know about it. The parents of children who murder in the manner we all observed yesterday have failed miserably in their responsibility as parents. That is very sad but very true!

The difficulty with all of this is our very human tendency to assign blame as a starting and ending point. Better questions to explore are what can we do as parents, what can we do as educators, what can we do as citizens to keep our children safe. Frank

Sorry for rambling on.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Alice
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 04:29 PM

Bert, I have been thinking this through long before this Littleton incident (as an American parent, too) about the way families have come apart. I am sure you and many others are doing a fine job of parenting. I do think we need to address a real problem in our country with the lack of parental attention. It IS a problem, but not the only one. I am stating this from the perspective of having to be the only parent my son has known, and he is a kid who has never been in trouble. He has just recovered from having a broken collar bone, deliberately fractured by another student at school. And you are right, the school turned a blind eye, and basically swept the problem under the carpet. The school administration sits on the fence, playing 'see no evil', 'hear no evil'.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Allan C.
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 05:00 PM

A local law official who is trying to run for public office made a statement yesterday on the subject of parenting. He has encountered some political difficulties because his son has been arrested and convicted of some fairly serious crimes. The jist of his statement was this: Sometimes the best of parents, the most caring of parents, the parents who do their very best to nurture their children and raise them to be good citizens cannot prevent their children from making some really bad choices.

I fully agree. I also strongly agree that our children are influenced by far more things than we, with all our "wisdom" could enumerate. Those who understand the basic principles of ecological systems and their delicate balances often overlook the same principles within our own society. It serves no useful purpose to attempt to point fingers in any one direction. There are not enough points on the compass to demonstrate the many directions from which our influences come. In my view all we can do, ALL WE CAN DO! is live the best lives we can; be active, responsible citizens of our world; pray that in all of our actions we do will do no harm and hope that others will do the same.

I have learned that one of my co-workers is a parent of one of the kids in that school. I guess my concern for them far outweighs my ability to wax poetic. So I will borrow: "Bury the rag deep in your face. Now is the time for your tears."

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 05:49 PM

Alice, I too see the same happening. In an out of school environment the infliction of injury & threat is a criminal act of assult & battery. Was someone charged (if not why not?) or did the school sweep this away. If so then the school can & should be held responsible, for if they cannot provide a safe environment for children they should know that doing nothing lends to a more violent environment & fosters more abuse. When we fought our school system our children were singled out & dealt with in a way that would make a leg breaker pleased with the advancements made in the areas of intimidation. We needed to arm ourselves with federal law in order to get some education for our kids, sad sight.

Frank, my point was that parents provide the most for their kids but everyone around also has an effect. If you're doing a great job & your kid goes to school with the aim to learn & they're attacked then the school again victimizes them by making the victim the one who's to blame. Now if the neighborhood they are encompassed in is also home to the same bullies & no one says a thing then your kid is most likely to be in danger & it doesn't matter if you know it or not. I grew up getting a very poor education so I know first hand the cost of not having one, my neighborhood was riddled with violence, I had very loving parents but it takes more. I fought for what schooling I could get, I fought to stay there, I fought for love & compassion & I fought my way past prison, drugs, thugs, gangs, preachers, most I knew never made it & now I fight tooth & nail for my kids & it always seems like it's against the odds. The odds shouldn't be stacked against kids, when they are the results are tragic & all indicators point to things getting worst not better. How often do you hear parents & neighbors express shock & suprise at the actions of someone they thought they knew. Barry

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Matthew B.
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 06:17 PM

You've all made some excellent points, reflecting on many complex issues...

But what about one simple issue: How did two high school kids get their hands on an army platoon's worth of guns and ammo?

As sick as they were, they could never have caused this much harm if they didn't have ready access to such an arsenal. Imagine if they had tried to terrorize their entire school with a knife? Tragic as that would be, it's nothing com[ared to what they were able to accomplish.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Cuilionn
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 07:13 PM

Ev'ryane seems tae keep referrin' tae th' shootin' as a tragedy. It's nae a tragedy... that implies there wis sumpit false an' theatrical an' inevitable aboot it, an' insteid it wis a' tae real an' cuid hae been preventit if folk were nae sae blind, sae terribly blind. Th' unco' fact o' th' matter is that I spent th' afternune o' th' shootin' in ma apartment at seminary in Denver, readin' aboot different theological responses tae th' Problem o' Evil, an' as families were aff sobbin' an' grievin' an' media hounds were sniffin' at th' kill, I wis wrichtin' oot ma ain response, strugglin' tae articulate ma ain beliefs. Ma ain understandin' is that there's nae Auld Clootie runnin' roond wi' hooves an' pitchfork, but human folk are muckle guid at ca'in up oor ain demons, an' settin' 'em loose on ither folk. I believe that guidness an' justice are claise kin tae th' cosmic balance o' th' yirth itsel'. Injustice is th' same as th' pattern bein' damaged. These young men whae plantit explosives insteid o' seedlings, an' weedit oot folk insteid o' bunchgrass... what dreadfu' imbalance maun hae been devourin' their intimmers, tae mak 'em lash oot sae terribly an' then destroy their ainsels? In th' sair-hairtit aftermath o' a' this, I dinnae ken how tae feel aboot th' event ither than sair distressit that, ane mair time, some folk challenged ither folk tae help 'em stay human, an' baith sides seem tae hae failed. I wish I cuid jist tak th' trauchled souls under ma ain wings, haud 'em claise, help 'em walk thro' th' darkness an' drive awa' the demons...I dinnae think ye can meet hunger an' fears o' scarcity wi' onythin' but a feast o' abundance, if ye want tae restore th' balance. Ane thing wha' binds th' web back taegither in sic a time is music. Since ye askit, here's th' fairst ane wha' cam tae mind. I dinnae ken th' wrichter o' it, but I'm thinkin' it micht be someane back in Seattle, for I first haird it amang th' singers there. If onyane else kens th' original artist/wrichter o' th' sang, please post it sae we can hae credit whaur credit is due...

The Quilt Song (wrichten aboot th' AIDS Quilt Project)

Hold on/ to what is good,/ even if it's a handful of earth.../ Hold on / to what you believe/ even if it's a tree which stands by itself.../ Hold on / to what you must do/ even if it's a long way from here.../ Hold on-- / Hold on to life/ even if it is easier, letting go.../ Hold on--/ Hold on to my hand/ even when I have gone far away./ Hold on--/ Hold on--/ Hold on.

A h-uile beannachd leibh,

--Cuilionn

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Alice
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 07:57 PM

RESIGNATION
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

There is no flock, however watched and tended
But one dead lamb is there!
There is no fireside, howsoe'er defended,
But has one vacant chair!

She is not dead - the child of our affection,
But gone unto that school
Where she no longer needs our poor protection
And Christ himself doth rule.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Lion
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 08:43 PM

Alice: I feel for you having to deal with the broken collar bone incident, but I have to ask this, what about the parents of the offender? Were you able to talk to them, because having sufferred the verbal abuse of my 10 year old daughter, I know that however cooperative the scope of the school is somewhat limited. Discipline is all very well at the school level, but if the kid is going back to a home situation where the parent/s don't care you are not going to stop the violence.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Alice
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 08:49 PM

My impression is the kid learned to be violent at home.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 09:55 PM

I am both delighted and saddened by the commentary in this thread. On the one hand I see friends that I have come to love and respect trying to grapple with a very complex and tragic event. And doing so with respect for one anothers opinion, even though there is disagreement on the issues.

My disappointment is with what I see as the "cubbyholing" of the problem. If there is a problem in our society, specifically the US society, it is that we continually seek to find an answer we can live with, put the problem there, blame someone and then put it behind us. And with that, we doom our children to another generation of poverty, hopelessness and school shooting incidents. It is when conservatives wash off an incident as being perpetrated by "them" (you know, single mothers' children, or innercity children, not monotheistic children....blah blah blah), or when liberals throw a bunch of money, and poorly managed programs with no accountability or measurable results. All to promote someones f****ng political agenda. In the meantime, more children die, or kill. More single parents, overwhelmingly women single parents, struggle with the impossible task of putting food on the table and paying rent and raising decent human beings and watching their children be influenced by others because they have to work to survive. And we will find someone to be "at fault", and then we will put our blinders back on until some other 13 to 18 forces us to take them off again.

What's the point? If you want to find someone to blame, if you must have that quick indictment, then look in the mirror. We are all to blame, and none of us deserves the blame. We must not allow ourselves to just walk away. And we must not fall into the cheap worthless phrases that are designed to promote our own agenda. Examples? "If Jesus were in their lives, we wouldn't have these problems". "We have lost our traditional family values". "If we had gun control we wouldn't have these problems" "It is the breakdown of the family unit". It seems to me that we need to admit that we are lost, don't know why this is happening and search for real solutions. We need to recognize that it can never be the "good old days". We need to recognize that they weren't really that good anyway. And we need to stop listening to people who, under the guise of "intellectual discussion", really seek to spread their own agenda. When I taught disadvantaged young people who were aged 16 to 21, I sought first to understand them, their background, where they were coming from, and then waded into the problem of helping them become employable in the building trades. I made no assumptions about the "right" way, instead I figured out where I was with each student, and started there. Did that make me special? Nope, that made me lucky. Most teachers are not blessed with the ability to spend the kind of time I did. They are overwhelmed.

I will stop ranting, but I would wrap up with an observation. If we are going to save our kids, ourselves, and our society, we are going to have to acknowledge that the problem is huge, that no one is safe, and that our kids deserve to have us dig in with passion and seek real, quantifiable solutions. It begins with dumping our agenda's, acknowledging that we don't have the solutions and moving from there. It means saying that the gun may have been the means, but hopelessness was the cause. Until we start attacking the cause, someone will always find the means.

Mick

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: dwditty
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 09:55 PM

What has changed in the 35 years since I was in high school? Back then, "bad" kids created michief for the most part - not the horror of Littleton. So what is different.

1. Back then it was common for a parent to be at home. It was also common for a child to be raised in an extended family with grandparents, aunts/uncles, or cousins living in the household. Today, many kids are in day care - at least until they reach 8 or 9 years old. In many cases they are then left unsupervised for several hours a day throughout their adolescence. They a free to suck up the influences of bad TV (Kids love Jerry Springer, for Christ's sake.), pornography, unprotected sex, drugs, alcolhol, and more. Clearly this is not a good environment for a kid to develop socially, emotionally, or intellectually. I am not saying that day care/latch-key ruins all kids, but I personally think, and it is only my personal opinion - so don't anyone get offended, that it profoundly affects more kids than we care to admit.

2. Back then it was common for teachers and school officials to enforce "the rules." While I never heard of anyone getting physically acosted by a teacher/principal/etc.,there were always stories of an enraged pricipal hitting a student. Basically, we all thought that it could happen, and maybe that wasn't so bad. Today, the mere hint of a threat to force a student to behave in a certain way brings lawyers ready to sue the teachers, the school board, the town, and anyone else who gets in the way. All too often, the student observes the proceedings with a smirk on his/her face. This only reinforces lousy behavior. Now my parents never hit any of us growing up - and I am thankful for that. But if I ever came home complaining about being discipled for doing something wrong, I am 100% positive that my father would have supported that authority of the teacher.

My wife and I were happily living the two-income, professional lifestyle when we had our first child. My wife went back to work for a few short months when our daughter was six months old. It took a matter of weeks for us to come to the conclusion that "This sucks." The dilemma was that my wife's income supported 50% of our lifestyle. Our decision was to bite the bullet. We cut out everything so that one of us could stay home. We couldn't make it. Now my wife does typing work at home in the evenings while I parent the children. It works. The point is we both have time for our kids now. We are very involved with their school. As a family, we are active in our church. At least for us, I believe all of this increases our chances of being parents of good, well-adjusted kids. But it's no guarantee.

DW

So, in a nutshell, I personally think that parents bear the brunt of the responsibility for their children. And, yes, Barry, everyone else does, too - teachers, cops, clergy,...passersby, for that matter, if they see something wrong.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: EAST
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 10:28 PM

I go to middle school less than 20 miles from Columbine H.S. It is shocking to all of us, not just my grade who will be in high school next year. Everyone was badly shaken up, and we all feel the pain. The worst part is not the news casts, or being so close to it, but not being able to help the victims. The ribbons for the dead and hope for the future help, as do the cards which we sign, but we want to do more. Please, if there is any sight with printable sheet music that will ease the pain I will be very grateful.

-a colorado student

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Alice
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 10:48 PM

colorado student, there is music that will help the tears to flow, if that will help with the pain. There are sites that have sheet music at the links page you can find by clicking here.
You may know you can search the Digitrad database for lyrics with the blue box in the upper right corner of this page.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 10:56 PM

"Grief fills the room of my absent child, Lies in his bed, walks up and down with me....Remembers me of all his gracious parts...Then I have reason to be fond of grief."
William Shakespeare

To the student in Colorado who posted above: try this address on the Internet. I hope it helps:

www.geocities.com/Area51/Realm/5747/

kat

Subject: Lyr Add: HEALING RIVER
From: rich r
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 12:05 AM

HEALING RIVER

1964 Fred Hellerman & Fran Minkoff, published in The Collected Reprints From Sing Out! Volumes 7-12

O healing river, send down your waters,
Send down your waters upon this land;
O healing river, send down your waters,
To wash the blood from off the sand.

This land is parching, this land is thirsting,
No seed is growing in the barren ground,
This land is parching, this land is thirsting,
O Healing river send your waters down,
Let the seed of freedom awake and flourish,
Let the deep roots nourish, let the tall stalks rise
Let the seed of freedom awake and flourish,
Proud leaves uncurling against the skies.

O healing river, send down your waters,
Send down your waters upon this land;
O healing river, send down your waters,
To wash the blood from off the sand.

rich r

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 12:30 AM

Thank You East for knowing what's important now. It's not on sheet music, but some good songs are in this thread along with typical opinions. I hope the songs can help and I hope you have many friends that feel as you do. You and your friends are having to grow up far too fast and to live with things that most of US did not. So my best hope for you is that in the "living" you'll have learned the answers which WE don't have. Our love to all of you.

catspaw

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 12:49 AM

For those of you who would like to send a message directly to the students of CHS, I found this address at Denver's Channel 9 news; it allows one to post a message to the children.

www.9news.com/newsroom/chs.htm

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Margo
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 01:21 AM

No, I am not to blame for what happened. I did not make any bombs, I did not shoot anybody. I am not responsible for others actions outside of myself and my family.

I do not believe in blaming everyone for one person's foibles or their wickedness. I do the very best I can everyday to be a decent person, living by principle and standing up for what's right.

I see in our threads a common ground amongst us all: we are not proponents of violence. We seem to disagree mostly on our opinions about why things are the way they are and what to do about them.

This kind of discussion is, I think, part of the answer!

Margie

Margie

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Tucker
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 01:26 AM

Hello Catspaw and everyone. My heart and sympathy go out to all in Colorodo. I am sure we will all be debating the whys soon enough. For now though my prayers are for the families there. May God be with them. Tucker

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: bbc
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 01:30 AM

Friends,

When I read your posts last night, I was still too stunned to add my piece. Like some of you, I am both the parent of teenagers & an educator & the news hit too close to home. After a few hours of sleep, I woke up w/ my thoughts together & ready to share, here at 1:25 am my time.

Events such as these jar us from our mistaken sense of security & remind us that life is fragile & only given to us one moment at a time. I want to say, again, that I feel blessed to be part of this community. The news media told us all the shocking, gory details; you, my fellow-Mudwhatevers have responded w/ your hearts & minds--empathizing & wondering where we go from here. Most of us do not have the ability to touch this situation directly, but we all have an influence on the world, for either the greater darkness or the greater light. Our lives have a ripple effect, day by day & moment by moment. You hearten & heal me; let's continue, by our actions & our music, to spread light!

yours,

bbc

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Pete M
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 02:13 AM

I hesitate to add anything to this thread, the songs I would have suggested are at the begining, and last night adding anything seemed almost like an intrusion.

To the Colorado student, your reaction is natural, the feeling of helplessness in any situation you cannot control is numbing. To try and fail is bad enough, but to be unable to do anything can at times be unbearable. I hope that knowing the rest of the world shares your feelings may help.

Some have talked of blame, and it is a natural reaction to want to blame someone, or something, for in attributing blame one can in some ways make the unbelievable more understandable. For others, the attribution of blame to individuals absolves them, at least in their own minds, from any complicity, yet as Barry has said, if we do not take responsibility for what happens around us, how can we blame others. We all do our best for our children, but we are also responsible collectively for the social environment in which they grow.

At the end of the day our children make their own choices, but we are responsible for the choices they select from. If we as a community give primacy to individual "rights", including the right to own firearms, over the responsibility of the individual to their community, can we really deny culpability if they take this precept to an extreme which shocks us?

DW's method may not work for all, but it does seem to me to be a recognition that responsibilies come before rights, as does Barry's stand.

Pete M

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 02:40 AM

Rich, the song sounds like Hellerman could have written it thirty years later about Iraq. When will we ever learn, indeed.

A couple of years ago, Margaret Albright was asked about the 5000 or so Iraqui children who were dying of starvation and disease caused the sanctions every month since the Gulf War, specifically whether our goals were worth that sacrifice; she thought a minute before saying "Yes."

President Clinton called the deaths of the dozens of refugees killed by a misguided missile "regrettable," but, hey, accidents will happen (not his exact words).

NBC's special edition of "Nightline" tonight showed from two recent movies--"The Basketball Diaries" in which a young man dreams about going back to his high school dressed in black and blowing away his classmates with a shotgun__and "The Matrix," in which characters dressed in black walk the halls shooting people, and a video game called "Doom" in which the player walks the halls shooting people. The boys loved that game. They also loved the film "Natural Born Killers."

I don't know what to make of these events, but I do know that American culture tends to glorify violence--and even to justify it when inflicted upon those outside the circles we draw around ourselves. These two boys seem to have been--within the school--driven into a very tiny circle.

Barry Finn's message above seems the closest thing to an answer--as I interpret it. Barry, in getting into his students' worlds, was bringing them into his. Every inch by which we can help young people expand their circles helps.

--seed

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: hank
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 08:57 AM

You hit a nerve with me, Matthew. A Gun is a tool. A dangerious one yes, but still a tool that can be used for harm or good.

I completed my gun safety certification on the night of those shootings. Every one of us was shocked. Nobody in that classroom shows any signs of such behavior (of course how can you know) We all recignised as soon as we heard this that people like you would get on a soapbox and start fighting for the banning of Guns, instaed of solving the real problem. The real problem (which was touched on by a few others, but is far more complex then anyone could possibally write in the alloted space, if you could fully understand it - I don't think you can) There was a kid who pulled a trigger on a gun. The gun did not, cannot shoot byitself.

In case your not aware, it is illegal to take a gun to school. It is illegal to kill people with a gun. If I heard right (but I've been too schocked to beleive I heard right) those guns were illegal. You want anouther law as if that will stop this in the future? It won't work.

I'm shocked and horrified about these deaths. But taking away the rights of honest people to own a gun will not solve this. As the old saying goes: when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. In this world where illegal cocain makes it across the borders don't think that guns won't make it across the border to the outlaws. Maybe these kids wouldn't have gotten one, but I wouldn't want to bet my life on the inability of someone to get a gun, even if they can't there are still many ways to kill someone, including knives, bow/arrow, spear, rocks, krattie (and other hand to hand combat), hanging, and more.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 10:54 AM

Guns are made for one reason, specifically, and that is to kill. Our society has failed miserably to instill the respect necessary for anyone to have guns available where children, up through 18 years old, at least, can get their hands on them.

I grew up in Colorado, target shooting, with my parents. My dad was a crackshot and his dad before him, as well as his granddad who had been a U.S. Deputy Marshall in the Cherokee Strip and had killed in self-defense many times. We were tauhgt the finality of a gun. When I shot over the head of my ex, who was beating my dog, my dad came down and asked what was going on. My ex told him his daughter had tried to kill him. My dad, knowing how good of a shot I was and how he had taught me, said, no, if she'd wanted you dead, you would be dead. We were never allowed to take a gun down without premission, never in anger, and told to never point it unless we meant to kill and accept the consequences. When growing up, we would have regretted it for days after, if we had even pointed a toy gun.

The norms are not the same now. Anyone who does own a gun needs to be sure it is locked away, with absolutely NO way anyone else could get to it. Lest you argue that that defeats the purpose of self-defense, read on:

"Someone once told me a can of spray paint is a better defensive weapon than a gun, especially for a woman, as women are usually smaller than their assailants. A well-aimed shot of paint to the face immediately focuses the killer/rapist/robber's attention on their own problem. Their hands fly up to the eyes, thus releasing their victim and/or their weapon. While they are thus occupied and possibly blinded, one has an excellent chance of getting away or calling for help. Most of the children who have killed children, especially at school, seem to have come from families which keep guns in their homes, for whatever reason. Too bad they didn't all just have a paint party, instead.

Copyright May 22, 1998 by Katey LaFrance, OoBraughLoo Press

This is NOT the Old West. There is NO general moral code by which those who have guns live by, thus no reasonable thought process is engaged when someone becomes enraged, despondent, or crazed. Society has accepted violence as a norm in our tv shows, our movies, and sometimes, in our lives. Until we all take responsibility and quit inundating our children with media carte blanche we will not turn this crisis around. I am not assigning blame, this is meant as an idea as to "why?". And, what we can do to change it.

Until parents and caregivers turn off the violence, their kids will continue to become inured to it and see it as acceptable behaviour. When my son was in preschool, we parents would get together for discussions on childrearing. One time a child psychologist talked to us about the "sex" question. He explained that when a five yr. old asked about sex, they were not asking for the same, in-depth information a fifteen year old or whaetever older age might be looking for. They would just need a simple answer, at that tender age, without any detailed explanation. This made sense to me and was true of my children. I am appalled at how many parents do NOT censor what their children are exposed to and at what ages, nowadays. The news and media have become so filled with violence, how many parents even think about whether a five year old, or ten yr. old or whatever age should be seeing the gory details of news or be shown a blueprint of a fictionalized crime in a movie?

Tv is what feeds my fmaily, since Rog is the engineer who keeps a few local stations on the air, but that doesn't mean I approve nor subscribe to their programming. It also does NOT mean I believe in censorship, I don't. I believe those who take care of children have an obligation to censor their children's exposure to the horrors of the world and just let them be kids; to protect their tender imaginations and hearts. When they do allow their children to watch something of import, they are obligated to discuss it with them; to teach their children critical thinking skills, as to what is real and acceptable.

I am sorry this is so long. Hank, one of the things you may have noticed here at the Mudcat, we try to keep from making personal assumptions about one another, esp. critical assumptions.

With all good wishes for Peace Profound,

katlaughing

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Bob Schwarer
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 12:07 PM

Over in Tampa/ St. Pete a little bit back some teenagers tossed rocks off an overpass onto the interstate & managed to kill a woman. Someone else was driving too slow to suit the people in the car behind so they followed them & beat them with shovels. A kid wore black to school yesterday & was threatened.

Try to disipline a kid & HRS(the State) jumps in & puts you in jail & takes the kid. And the kids have learned to play the "I'll call the cops" game. Three boys killed one of the boy's father because they got pissed. Two boys and a girl killed the girl's mother. same reason.

This is what happens locally & is probably a reflection of everywhere else. BTW no guns used in any of this.

Bob Schwarer

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Margo
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 12:29 PM

I'm with you, Hank. Outlawing guns isn't the answer. We have guns in our home. The 45's in our bedroom live in lock boxes that can only be opened by pressing a three of five buttons in the right sequence. The kids will never get into them. We never let them see us open the boxes, either.

I truly believe that the violence on television, in movies and computer games plays a part in desensitizing children to how horrible such acts really are. The graphic blood and guts killing appeals to a person's lower nature. Once used to a certain level of violence, it takes something more and more bloody to create the thrill. It's like a person's body getting used to a drug, and more drug is needed to create the desired effect.

I really believe that the way back to sanity is through the law. Tighter restrictions on what can be depicted. Restrictions on what kids can see. I'm not for cencorship either, but consider: The freedoms we have in this country ar restricted by moral laws. It's against the law to commit murder. Kids say, "its a free country, I can do what I want." Not quite, kids. You don't have the right to commit mayhem.

I like target shooting. I think it's fun. So Kat, you're a regular Annie Oakly? I wish we could go shooting together. But "empty pop bottles is all we would kill".

Margie

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 12:42 PM

Margie,

Used to be. It's probably been twenty years since I've shot and never more than a paper target or pop can. I did hit the bulls-eye, with every shot of an 8mm, one time when I was pissed at my ex-mother-in-law, BUT,of course, I never thoguht about using it on her, as children seem to think is okay these days.

Sorry, Bob, but those cases you mentioned are far outnumbered by the number of murders which do involve guns. My main point is, rocks, sticks, etc, are not designed specifically to kill; guns are.

kat

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Rex
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 01:02 PM

These kids don't fit into any set patterns. So they get left out. They are alone and frustration festers into hate which festers into God knows what. You have to get kids involved in something that means something to them. Youth organizations are well structured for this and handy but are not the only answer. The kids need something to care about. The ones that don't fit neatly into our systems and organizations, we don't dare give up on them. Don't sweep them under the rug. Keep trying.

Rex

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Indy Lass
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 01:05 PM

Guns are tools created by humans to easely cause damage to or put an end to the physical aspect of a living being. The use of this tool for "bad" or "good" is based on the reasoning capacity of a user relative to that user's own perspective of events. The gun helped the two boys who had chosen to kill escape the consequences of their actions in living society. Therefore, they can only be thought of as vengeful cowards.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: anna
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 01:27 PM

I wish I could say something that hasn't already been said, especially katlaughing's beautiful poem, but I can't. But, being the new kid, I wanted to say you all have expressed my horror, sympathy, and pain. My heart goes out to everyone experiencing this pain.

anna

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 01:43 PM

If every one of us would look in our own communities for the services available to youth, and would offer our own time to spend with just one kid for a few hours a week, don't you think it would help? Some of us are doing it already, through being the best parents or teachers we can, through befriending our own kids' friends, or through other means. But if the Trenchcoat Mafia and other disenfranchised kids had more optimistic, loving adults who were truly interested in them, it might give them some hope. One on one, one kid at a time, is the best way to get at the heart of the problem. Allison

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Cuilionn
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 01:46 PM

I'm gang tae try an' wricht this wi'oot sae muckle Scots, sae mair folk will understand...bear wi' me if a wee bit creeps in.

Here's a thought: How many of our beloved and brilliant folk/blues heroes were, and are, "outsiders"?

WHAT IF these kids, so full of rage against those who ostracized them, had been given a nourishing diet of folk and blues music throughout their childhoods?

WHAT IF the gunner lads had learned to SING their pain, and learned to understand their alienation in the context of a vast heritage of musical expressions which enabled others' survival?

WHAT IF the songs of the Civil Rights and Labor movements, the horrific old murder ballads, the songs which help us celebrate (and long for) peace, and other songs which preach and teach about justice had been incorporated organically into the educational system and other social structures which guided and "raised up" these kids?

WHAT IF venues and instruments had been provided, and the schools and the larger community had made it possible for young people to articulate their pain creatively instead of destroying and being destroyed?

WHAT IF we still have the time and wherewithall to impliment these ideas HERE and NOW?!?

WHAT IF we tradition-bearers and musical innovators could be part of the work of transformation and healing all over the world, but most especially among our angry and suffering children?

WHAT IF we already ARE, and we take this situation not as a summons to paralysis, but as an powerful opportunity to infiltrate our communities further and bring hope and healing and the joy of creation back into the lives of our youth?!?

--Cuilionn, whae invites ye a' tae th' ceilidh o' comfort an' healin' which I'm havin' at ma seminary apartment here in Denver... I'll mak th' biscuits, ye bring th' JAM!!!

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Penny
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 01:47 PM

Thanks for the address, katlaughing. It's always hard to know what to say, but essential to let people know that they are cared for, and about.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 02:02 PM

Penny, you are welcome. Anna, thanks for the compliment. Cuillion, yours is the best advice I've seen on here. Among the debates over it all, you have narrowed it down to the essense of music, which has been the uniting force here at the Mudcat. You have helped me, at least, to focus on specifics which we can all implement and work to see a difference. Thank you and now that I know you're in Denver, look out! My sister and I just MIGHT show up with the JAM!

katlaughing

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Alice
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 03:04 PM

Cuillion, I was also thinking along the lines of what you have written. I was listening today to a friend of the two shooting students who had once been a member of their outcast group. He described on tv how they had a "hobby" of making pipe bombs and blowing them up in the back yard of a house where an older man they knew lived alone. He left their group when he realized he could no longer identify with their behavior. He said the police did know about a pipe bomb threat made by these same boys last year.

I couldn't help but think... wouldn't a parent know if your kid had a hobby of making pipe bombs? Why would a parent ignore a minor child's website on how to build bombs?

These kids could have been building instruments instead of bombs. They could have had a garage band practice in the garage last weekend instead of putting together the weapons they built for this event.

On top of what is happening to children in Yugoslavia, this has caused me many hours of lost sleep.

We, here on the Mudcat, are talking about giving kids lyrics and songs, and plans on how to build instruments. When I sang folk songs with my son's class recently, I talked to them about writing their own songs. They were in an African drum class, learning world folk music, and they all loved what they were doing there. I know we can help kids who are not our own children, but ultimately, they live at home with their own parents. My son is in the 6th grade now, and the boy who broke my son's collar bone is the same boy who, two years ago (4th grade), said he couldn't wait to join the army so he could kill people. The school can't change the home life of this kid.

PIE JESU

Pie Jesu,
Pie Jesu,
Qui tollis peccata mundi,
Dona eis requiem,
Dona eis requium.

Lord, have mercy,
Lord, have mercy,
You who take away the sins of the world,
Grant them peace,
Grant them peace.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: AuntBea
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 03:36 PM

The Pope is wrong. America is not a culture of murder. The world is. Doesn't he see in his own backyard.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Matthew B.
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 04:20 PM

Alice, the story you told of about the boy who broke your son's collar bone sent chills down my spine. Will we ever learn to stop ignoring the signs?

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Tucker
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 05:28 PM

well said Hank

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Tucker
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 05:44 PM

I would like to make one point to those who are so anti gun. The worst mass murder in the United States by one person was not done by a gun, but by a disgruntled man at a girlfriend at a New York social club. One gallon of gasoline and a match ended the life of over 160 people. Folks, we can't control crazies, ok? It is easy to make poison gas, fire, bombs and even disease today. If a madman wants to make mayhem he can do it. It is easy to kill lots of people in the family car. What are we going to do? Ban everything? Live in an antiseptic world? Life is a risk. I feel for all who are victims of violence but before you start taking guns from my racks start with the video stores where the seeds are planted. The guns in my home are decoration. Some are from wars. They will kill no more. Can you say the same for the gallon of gasoline you think no one wants, sitting by your lawnmower?

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 07:53 PM

Just a small point. There was a TV programme here in the UK a litle while back, about the effect of violent computer games had (or not had) on children.

There was a child, about 12 years old, he was asked to describe and say what he thought about a game he had just been playing. He replied that, "you had run about shooting people and blowing things up, it was great, just like in real life".

Was he wrong? Does not art imitate life?

Could it be that by trying to shield our children, from a world that they see very clearly and in some ways can see clearer than us, just makes the problem worse?

For it is not they, that have to live in that world too?

Maybe they don't like it much either?

Maybe if we try to LISTEN to them more, we may understand a little better?

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 08:08 PM

Hi Shambles---Go back up and read my post to EAST on4/22 @12:30 AM. Read East's post first. I like the way you phrase it and I agree we can't stop trying, but many of the answers, or all of them, probably lie with the young. Yeah, us old farts got ALL the answers; my generation was angered at the +30 set who didn't listen to what we were saying......Things may not have changed much in the ensuing years. Every generation says the hopes and answers for a better world are in the children and so we tune out what they say....Why hell, they're just kids. uh-huh.

Liked your post.

catspaw

Subject: Lyr Add: LISTEN TO ME (Roger Gall)
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 08:29 PM

Listen to me

You listen to the wind,
You listen to the sea.
You even listen to the rain on your window,
Why won't you, listen to me?

You listen to the radio
You listen to your TV
You even listen to, the static,
Why won't you, listen to me?

It's not that what got to say is so profound,
It might be, but if you don't listen to the sound.
If you don't hear the show, you won't know what you're missing,
It's a waste of time you'll find, when nobody listens.

You listen to your walkman,
You listen to your CD.
You even listen to the traffic,
Why won't you listen to me?

You listen to your hair dryer,
You listen to your washing machine.
You even listen to the water in the attic
Why won't you listen to me?

If we get credit for what we have to say?
I would like to suggest another way.
You say, you have the way, you have the vision,
No not you, I'll give it to, the few that will listen.

You've got to listen, to the small print,
Just like you strain, your eyes to see.
Got to listen with, your glasses on,
That's the way I would like you to listen to me.

And I'll try to listen to you,
The way I would like you,
To listen to me.

Listen to me

Roger Gall 1997

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 08:33 PM

Thanks Catspaw.

This was a good idea, it does help a little.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Alice
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 10:14 PM

A website with a list of Columbine High killed and injured and personal descriptions compiled by friends and family. Columbine High

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 10:20 PM

Somebody quoted from the movie "Wild in the Streets;" ie, the porigin of the "Don't trust anybody over 30" line. May I remind those of my generation that the movie ended with the rock-star president bullying a little kid, who turned around and said, "We're gonna put everybody over 12 out of business."

Mom was the cause of blondie's problems, and the me too liberals were schmucks. The movie stank.

-- MA

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Tucker
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 10:27 PM

Hey Mag, I actually saw that movie and yeah it sucked. It would be comical today.......like West Side Story or Hells Angels on Wheels. Sorry isn't it?

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 10:40 PM

Alice,

Thank you for the link.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: ddw in windsor
Date: 23 Apr 99 - 01:41 AM

Just finished reading all the way through this thread and have to admit there were tears at many of the posts. By now you'd think I'd be past that. I've spent the last 25 years of my life as a journalist -- most of 10 sitting in courtrooms listening to the unbelievably terrible things people do to each other for unbelievably stupid reasons, often for no reason at all. I finally went on the desk as an editor to get away from it, at least a little ways away. Now I only deal with murder, mayhem, grief and all the pain people suffer after it's been filtered through the eyes and minds of others, but it still hurts, especially something like this.

While I agree with a lot of the things already said, there are two that I can't -- and both for very similar reasons.

Ban the guns? I won't rehash the rebuttals, but it won't work. Man has been slaughtering his fellows one way or another since time began and at least a gun can help a weaker person ward off an attack by a stronger one, or at least it gives him a chance. It seems to me what we have to work on is how we view guns, their uses and other people.

The other thing that got under my skin a little was the references to the BAD OLD MEDIA for showing us all the carnage and its aftermath, thereby giving the next sicko a blueprint for his 15 minutes of fame. Same argument; news is as necessary to keeping the bullies (and they come in lots of forms) at bay as guns are and the only thing that separates good information from bad information is how it's used.

I find it astounding when -- not necessarily here, because I don't know what many mudcatters do for a living -- when I hear educators, those great purveyors of information, slagging journalists for trying to portray the world like it is with an idea of outraging enough people to make them change it.

Rant over. Love this site. There are a lot of people on it I'd love to get to know better. Hope it happens.

ddw

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 99 - 12:55 PM

Bet just forwarded the following to me. Thought those of you whom I haven't already emailed with it, might like to read it, too. It may seem to be only a gesture, but it is a start at something unified. There is great power in the medium of the Internet. Let's keep using it for the good, as we do here at the Mudcat. kat

From: karen tuinstra > Turn On Your Lights for America > As I was driving to work this morning I passed by an elementary school and noticed that the flag had been lowered to half-mast in memory of the students and their families in Littleton, Colorado. What a wonderful gesture that simple act is. But, I thought to myself, what can I do to show others that I too am deeply affected by this tragedy. > Turn on a light. Turn on my headlights. Turn on my porch light. Put a light in your window. But how do I get this message to others? Use the Internet. I'm sending this message to everyone on my email list and am asking that you do the same. > I am going to turn on my headlights on Friday morning on my way to work, on Saturday as I run my errands and especially on Sunday as I go to my place of worship. I'm also going to turn on my porch lights on Friday, Saturday and Sunday night. > I'm going to turn on my lights for the families in Littleton to show them that I care about them, that I feel the pain and hurt and heartache. > I'm going to turn on my lights for what is right about this country. I'm going to turn on my lights against the darkness, the anger and the prejudice. I hope you will join me. One light is not much but put them together and we can light up the world. > Turn on your lights - show that you stand for what is right about America. > And as you turn on your headlights and porch lights this weekend; turn on the light in your heart and soul. Show the world that this is not what America is all about. With your light shining bright, along with others,we can come together (if only for a brief moment) and combat the evil that confronts us all. > Please pass this email on to everyone on your address list. Lets see if we can get this message to everyone across this great country before Friday morning and lets use the Internet for what it was intended - good.Turn on your headlights Friday, Saturday and Sunday April 23, 24, and 25 > Turn on your porch lights Friday, Saturday, and Sunday night April 23, 24, and 25, Light up America. Show that you care about what is right about our country.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Frank Howe
Date: 23 Apr 99 - 01:05 PM

At the risk of both preaching to the choir and simultaneously annoying those who disagree, I feel compelled to respond to "ddw in windsor"'s point about press coverage and the purpose it serves to help keep us informed and to energize social change. Both functions of a free press are valid and essential in a healthy free society. I would never want to lose such First Amendment benefits. The media has the right to cover such tragedies as they do. It is patently untrue however that sensationalistic coverage such as we have seen is needed to increase the general public's information base or advocate for any useful social change. No sensible person needs to see bloodied tearful children, to know that shootings in a high school are an awful tragic event that must be prevented. No sensible person needs to hear a young girl crying and looking about for missing friends to know how terribly upsetting such events are to survivors as well as victims. No sensible person needs to hear a reporter commenting that a community has been rocked to its foundation or that it will never be the same again. Such video clips, insensitive questioning of people when they are most vulnerable, and dramatic statements validating the devastation are simply lazy reporting. They are easy attention grabbers. The hard work or reporting takes time and effort. Find out for us how we can spot and prevent such tragedies in the future. Investigate the systems that serve these children and see how they can be strengthened. Dig and come up with useable information for positive change. Don't rush to print or video screaming "the sky is falling" and then graphically depicting how it has fallen on our children. Such sensationalism serves no useful purpose. It does however serve to very dangerous purposes: It creates great fear, sadness, and anger in a large portion of the population who then demand / expect quick answers. A local school system here in Virginia just banned certain kinds of clothing (can you guess what color) in response to the killings in Colorado. This quick fix is far from helpful. It has already resulted in reactions of alienation and anger from the very kids we ought to bring back into the community. Instead we further isolate them.

Secondly (and more to the point) this sensationalistic reporting is greatly appreciated and enjoyed by those who lean in the sad direction of committing such crimes. They see a mighty stage on which to act out their rage and ineptness at finding a way in life. This kind of reporting encourages and validates their need to make a big statement. The tears, the chaos, the "never-be-the-same" statements buy us the next massacre.

The right to know must be balanced by a responsible presentation of information, which moves us all in a positive direction.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 99 - 03:16 PM

Frank: my thoughts exactly! I get so annoyed at the so-called reporters here. NP, at the Univ. of WY has been fundraising all week on the strength of their local news caoverage, yet not once this week did I hear THEM do a report on how the University wants to abolish all foriegn languages AND the UW Family Practice Health Centers! Some invesigatve journalism!

I believe the media is driven by what they perceive the market wants. Reporters have become entertainers judged on ratings, not the content of their presentation. For this we are all guilty.

I am amazed this week, again, at the local newspaper reporters. They've done nothing, that I've seen, on our community and how to prevent this kind of thing happening her. I talked ot my sister who teaches here last night. She had a boy in the 5th grade last year who is worse this year. She is fearful of her life and those of everyone else,including him, because he is a walking time bomb. She worked really ahrd ot get him help last yr., it failed, this yr, it's been over a month since he ahs been identiied as needing counseling and intervention and still no appt to get started on that. Does the media go after and investigate this kind of "sweeping under the rug"? NO, because they, at least in this community, are in bed with the school administration and want to present a facade of wholesome, white-bread, two cars in every garage America.

When I called a lead reporter about abuses in our pentitentary, which denied inmates medical attention,esp. insulin for diabetics, do you think she followed up on it? She asked me to keep her informed, knowing that I am a freelance writer. I told her editor that if I was going to do all of the investigating and followup and writing and long distance phoning, it would be under my own by-line for national not to hand to a lazy incompetent who wouldn't know a story, or even a hint of one, from a hole in the ground.

With that in mind, I am meeting with a school board member on Monday to cover issues which concern me about violence and safety in school as well as the closing of 23 classrooms due to "reduced enrollment", but the added expenditure of an added 9th grade of 17 students at a back-to-basics school, to the tune of $60,000. NONE OF WHICH HAVE BEEN REPORTED, ALTHOUGH IT IS PUBLIC RECORD KNOWLEDGE!

AArrrggghhhhh! Sorry. Had to vent, I guess!

Thanks, Frank,

katlaughing

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 99 - 03:52 PM

No, I am not dyslexic! I just didn't proof it! Sorry! kat

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 23 Apr 99 - 05:08 PM

PIE JESU

Thank-you, Alice for that thought. I've got it playing right now.

What shocked me most about the Colorado massacre was that I'd all but ignored a local massacre in Ottawa a few weeks ago: a disgruntled former transit worker went to the bus depo, wounded three people and killed four, none of whom included the enemies he'd named in his suicide note. One of the slain was a part-time musician that I've probably heard at least once. I just shrugged it off.

Damn, that music is moving.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Alice
Date: 23 Apr 99 - 06:27 PM

Well, it's a lesson too late for the learnin. My son just walked in the back door about an hour ago, an hour too early for school to be out, without his jacket, violin, or backpack. I said, Is today an early release day? No, mom, there was a pipe bomb threat at school and they sent us out in a "fire drill", then told us about the bomb threat and said anyone who could walk home should go home. I'm glad I work at home so I was here when he came in. The rest of the kids were sent to a food prepartion building that is farther from the highschool/jr. high complex. He was upset in part that all of his things had to be left in the school over the weekend, then he realized it was a serious threat that could have been worse. Do we need to take our kids out of schools and teach them at home? I've been thinking about it seriously, ever since the broken collar bone event. I was listening to the radio news, and it mentioned that authorities all over the country are today dealing with kids going to school in black trench coats and bomb threats (copycat syndrome). My son said, Mom, some of the kids were laughing about it and thought it was cool that there could be a bomb.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 06:03 AM

There is more on the subject CLICK HERE Frenzy

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 02:10 PM

From 20 something niece-in-law who lives in Colorado.

Turn On Your Lights for America

As I was driving to work this morning I passed by an elementary school and noticed that the flag had been lowered to half-mast in memory of the students and their families in Littleton, Colorado. What a wonderful gesture that simple act is. But, I thought to myself, what can I do to show others that I too am deeply affected by this tragedy.

Turn on a light. Turn on my headlights. Turn on my porch light. Put a light in your window. But how do I get this message to others? Use the Internet. I'm sending this message to everyone on my email list and am asking that you do the same. I am going to turn on my headlights on Friday morning on my way to work,on Saturday as I run my errands and especially on Sunday as I go to my place of worship. I'm also going to turn on my porch lights on Friday,Saturday and Sunday night.

I'm going to turn on my lights for the families in Littleton to show them that I care about them, that I feel the pain and hurt and heartache.

I'm going to turn on my lights for what is right about this country.

I'm going to turn on my lights against the darkness, the anger and the prejudice. I hope you will join me. One light is not much but put them together and we can light up the world.

Turn on your lights - show that you stand for what is right about America. And as you turn on your headlights and porch lights this weekend; turn on the light in your heart and soul. Show the world that this is not what America is all about. With your light shining bright, along with others, we can come together (if only for a brief moment) and combat the evil that confronts us all.

Please pass this email on to everyone on your address list. Lets see if we can get this message to everyone across this great country before Friday morning and lets use the Internet for what it was intended - good.

Turn on your headlights Friday, Saturday and Sunday April 23, 24, and 25.

Turn on your porch lights Friday, Saturday, and Sunday night April 23, 24,and 25, Light up America. Show that you care about what is right about our country.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Rex
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 06:50 PM

I was saying before about getting kids involved with something. Keep them busy. I read other things here pinpointing specific ideas. It occurs to me I need to trim down a little closer to the core. Kids get a good dose everday of what is ugly about being a human being. We all do. It's in our face all the time. The terrible things people do to the environment and more so, to each other.Wouldn't it be helpfull, maybe, to show kids what is beautiful about being a human being. How is it better than being say, a sea slug? What's so great about being put on this planet to scratch about for our three score and ten years? This site does well to promote the beauty and wonder of music. But there is so much more. To build something with your hands and fail, the first time, but then succeed later. To make order out of chaos and make something pleasing to the eye or ear. To help out a friend, or a stranger. There's so much to do on this wonderful planet. There's really no place for boredom. Or hate.

Rex

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: DonMeixner
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 01:29 AM

Just about the time nothing will amaze me anymore, something does. The only difference between these two boys and Loeb and Leopold is the available technology and all thing on which to throw fault. It was the boys who pulled the triggers and threw the bombs. It was their parents who watched at a distance and were too busy to see the road ahead. There is really no fault beyond that.

I believe I can't save the world so I'll save my sons by being here when I'm needed and nudge them to the path when I see them off their course. If I can save them then maybe by example I will help to save another. Thats what life is, an endless selection of choices and it all comes back to personal responsibility and proper choices. (I hate to sound like that insufferable, insensative Harpy Dr. Laura, but in this very rare case she is correct.)

If I could ease the pain a little with a song I'd choose "Turning Toward the Morning" and "In the Garden"

Don

Subject: RE: A Song for Colorado's Victims
From: lloyd61
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 07:30 AM

When peace, like a river, attendeth my way, When sorrows like sea billows roll. What ever my lot, Thou hast taught me to say, It is well, it is well with my soul.

Philip P. Bliss 1838

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 10:32 AM

Lloyd: what beautiful words. Thank you.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 12:21 PM

Most of my internal fear, panic and desperate stabs at coming up with some kind of answer over the past week funneled into the song "Til All Thy Names Are One", which I opened a concert in Whitby with last night. Thanks Bob Zentz for a wnderful song.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: BK
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 11:28 PM

We are over 50. We have no kids and never watch TV, so a recent spate of exposure to kids video games, as well as commercial TV almost freaked me out. I was sickened by the intensity & pervasivness of the violence. I simply can not believe that the combination of intellectual pablum and emotional monstrosities that appear to be inundating "entertainment" & the media is not having an enormous negative effect. It can hardly be blamed for every aspect of ill in society, but it's got to hurt- A LOT!

If we had kids, I would do as one of my colleagues said he did with his teenagers; He banned video games from his household (and no doubt did many other things as well). From what I saw of many video games, (not just a few), those sick kids in Colorado were clearly acting consistent with the behavior shown in these "games" sick video fantasies. I wonder what "entertainment" these kids watched. I wonder what video games they played?

Of course, video games are marketed by adults, out to make a profit. How is this different from many other things adults do... and children see...

Appalled by the tragedy, saddened for the families, & bummed out in mid America, BK -who works in prisons...

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Alice
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 12:00 AM

BK, when I was looking for some kind of educational computer games for my son, I found that almost all computer games made for his age group are violent. I called PC/Mac Connection and asked them if they had any more games like the ones I approved of... Connections with James Burke, Amazon Trail, games where you solve puzzles and learn something. No, they told me, they didn't have any other games like that, but they had a special bundle of violent/occult games on sale... I told the salesman I would never buy games like that. He sounded just a little apologetic that he had no alternative.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: LEJ
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 12:59 AM

In my store I sell cd-rom games, and I also evaluate and play some of them myself. There are good and bad games but unfortunately adults don't know nearly enough about them. I often wonder about the attractive and well-dressed woman with the 8 year old kid in tow who comes in asking for "Duke Nukem." This is a game where the player takes the identity of a character and walks through several scenarios blasting creatures or other "evil" humans away. The graphics are stark with spurting blood and dismemberment. The character picks up new weapons as he moves through the scenarios, escalating from a pistol, to a shotgun, to a grenade gun. Because of her ignorance this woman wants to put this in the hands of her 8 year old. It probably makes a good babysitter for him while she has a relaxing coffee break with her friend.

If you have a kid who plays these games, you had better take a look at them. They are far more dangerous than movies, because the kid interacts with them. Titles like Doom, Blood, The Chosen and others are along the same lines. They are called "Shooters" in the industry, and I no longer sell them, nor will I let my child play them.EDUCATE YOURSELF.

LEJ

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: LEJ
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 01:24 AM

Oh, and Alice. There are plenty of thoughtful and positive games on the market. The Kings Quest series is non-violent and helps kids use their puzzle-solving skills. Other good games are Civilization,the Monkey Island series,Heroes of Might and Magic( which offers battle sequences that are fun but lack graphic violence),Age of Empires, Battleground Gettysburg (and any of the other Battleground games),and many others. E-mail me at [e-mail] if you have any concerns or questions...LEJ

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: hank
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 09:17 AM

After considering this all weekend I've come to a unhappy conclusion: This is the price we pay for freedom.

Things like this could be prevented. I think that most of us however would not want to have transmitters attached to us (surgicly) so that our every move can be tracked. Random searches at least once a year (weekly anyplace where there is the hint of trouble) Every strong person can wear heavy weights to slow them down to the level of "lesser" people. Every good dancer could have their legs broken (and set wrong) so they can't dance. Every smart person could have distracting headphones (or electric shock devices) so they can't carry an independant thought. Read Harrison Bergeron (a short story whos title I've murdered) for more info.

Yes, this is preventable. But the cost is more then I'm willing to pay. I would rather take the chance that I or my best friends could be next then to live in a socity where I don't have the freedoms I have.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Ethan Mitchell
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 09:27 AM

For the parents (and students?) here: Grace Llewellyn wrote a book some time back called *The Teenage Liberation Handbook*. I believe it's published by Lowry House. It says nothing about bomb threats, or about gruesome video games. What it *does* have is the absolute most cogent analysis of what is wrong with high schools / young people in America, and how to deal with it. I cannot recommend this book highly enough.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Shack
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 05:49 PM

I was wondering how 95 people could come up with a song for on an occasion which freezes the heart, from which a good song must be sung. Most of us named no song. Such a song would be "much to sad to write."

Subject: Lyr Add: I DON'T LIKE MONDAYS (Bob Geldof)
From: O'Boyle
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 07:20 PM

In the late 70's, Brenda Spencer shot up Cleveland Elementary school in San Diego, Ca. When asked why she did it, she said it was because she hated mondays. Bob Geldof of the Boomtown Rats wrote a song about it which was banned. I never understood why it was banned, except that people did not take the time to listen to it's message asking why some thing like this should or could happen. I put it back in my playlist the night after the shooting and people have responded well.

Rick

---

I DON'T LIKE MONDAYS
(Bob Geldof)

The silicon chip inside her head
Gets switched to overload
And nobody's gonna go to school today,
She's gonna make them stay at home,
And daddy doesn't understand it,
He always said she was good as gold,
And he can see no reasons
'Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown

Tell me why I don't like mondays,
Tell me why I don't like mondays,
Tell me why I don't like mondays,
I wanna shoot
The whole day down.

The Telex machine is kept so clean
And it types to a waiting world,
And Mother feels so shocked
As her world is rocked,
And her thoughts turn to her own little girl.
Sweet sixteen ain't that peachy keen,
No, it ain't so neat to admit defeat,
They can see no reasons
'Cause there are no reasons
What reasons do you need

Tell me why I don't like mondays
Tell me why I don't like mondays
Tell me why I don't like mondays
I wanna shoot
The whole day down, down, down, shoot 'em all down...

And now the playing's stopped in the playground now
She's wants to play with her toys awhile
And school's out early and soon we'll be learning
And the lesson today is how to die.
And then the bullhorn crackles,
And the captain tackles,
With the problems and the how's and why's
And he can see no reason
'Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to die

The silicon chip inside her head
Gets switched to overload
And nobody's gonna go to school today,
She's gonna make them stay at home,
And daddy doesn't understand it,
He always said she was good as gold,
And he can see no reasons
'Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown

Tell me why I don't like mondays
Tell me why I don't like mondays
Tell me why I don't like mondays
I wanna shoot
The whole day down.

---

Click for background information on this song

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Matthew B.
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 06:38 PM

Alice,

You really have a gift for writing stuff that gets me thinking. As for your eye-opening comment about the violence in computer games, let me add one more suggestion to the list that LEJ gave you.

A few years ago, my son (then 14) turned me on to SimCity, an engrossing, entertaining, and amazingly addictive game in which you have to help a city develop in everything from infrastructure to taxes. And while you're doing it all, you watch your city develop over the years.

Matthew

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Sheye
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 08:31 PM

This is the first time I've clicked onto this thread.

Who's to blame? We all are. The Indians believe the village raises the child. I believe the Indians are right. Every time we get pissed at the driver in front of us and swear instead of allowing them the grace of their error, we are adding to a black void that might not be hatred, but is certainly sucking away love. Every time we do something selfish (not even necessarily mean) we are adding to the illusion that we don't need to love others. Every time we forget to say thank you for the little things they become less important...

The bigger the city, the easier to hide in the anonymity. We think we can misbehave where no one knows us, but each of us is the product of our experiences and each of us leaves a mark on all we come in contact with.

What are we willing to give up to spare the pain of our neighbour? If I had to vote yes or no to censorship, I would say no. I am not willing to give up that freedom, but I know that access to information can be destructive.

Another comment. We, the creatures, are also at the mercy of statistical variation and mutation. Sociopaths exist. If a person is born without the ability to understand consequence or feel guilt, all the parenting and love in the world won't change that.

Mick, Frank, you asked when we will learn. Not today. It breaks my heart to tell you that two high school students were shot in one of Alberta's high schools today. Initial reports are that both survived.

I can offer no answers, only tears and a hug.

Sheye

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Alice
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 08:57 PM

Sorry to add that one Canadian student died and one went to surgery in the Alberta shooting. Right after I posted about the Canadian shootings today, my son came in the door with all of his stuff from school. His school was again evacuated (like last Friday) except this time they told everyone to remove all their belongings and locker padlocks and take them home. Local evening news announced that a bomb threat letter had been sent to the school saying there were three bombs and they would blow up tomorrow (Thursday). School is cancelled for the rest of the week while they search the buildings again. They will have to add two days to the end of the term. This is madness. We are not living in as much fear as those huddled in bomb shelters or hiding in the Balkan mountains, but it still is madness.

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 10:49 PM

Dear Alice, thanks for posting the latest information from Alberta. I wanted to but just could not find it in me at the moment. A week ago I wanted to scream "there ARE answers, if we can find the will". Today I have no answers, only sadness.

Shey, thanks for a fine and truthful posting

rick

Subject: RE: A Song or Two for Colorado's Victims
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 11:02 PM

Sheye,

You don't jump in often, but when you do, you make a hell of an impression. Thanks for a thoughtful and thought provoking post. I was touched by it, but more importantly it caused me to ponder my own actions. Your observations regarding being more tolerant in our daily lives resonates with me. Thanks for a great posting. But watch it, your heart is showing.

Mick