BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 12:42 PM

[snort!] I use a spell check that has no sense of syntax, but this is roller skating in the summer. For some reason they painted on a bright pink epoxy paint over the concrete surface.

It's a wrap!

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 07:11 PM

Stilly,

Didn't your mom always say to put on a wrap before you went ice skating?

(p.s. I probably should have PMed you to save you the public embarrassment, but you misspelled "wrap".)

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Alba
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 06:47 PM

There was a really amusing exchange last night on Countdown MSNBC Between Olbermann and Marvin Kittman, author of "The Man Who Would Not Shut Up, The Rise of Bill O'Reilly."   Here is a safe extract of the transcript that covers that particular part of the show (the total transcript from last night's show, as always, can be found at MSNBC's website) Kittman is as witty as always.
Nice to see you Mr.Hahn.

________Portion of the Show's Transcript________

OLBERMANN: Marvin, you have written "When I began studying him, O'Reilly, he was a semi-demented TV newsman. But lately he seems to be blanking it." Please fill in the blank.

KITTMAN: To use the technical word, losing it. He seems more unhinged than usual. You can tell in his debates, for example, he has two people that are debating an issue, when we're lucky. But even when somebody is on his side, if they're slightly off, like one degree, he comes down on them and he's just about ready to implode, I can see looking at him.

And he has a tendency, as you pointed out—he seems to have a case of paranoia. Everybody is against him, which is, you know, I guess partly true. And he has an increased tendency now to make mistakes. He always seems to be putting his foot where his mouth belongs. The most recent example is his debut as a restaurant critic at Sylvia's in Harlem. And I would like to say that I have analyzed his problem as he has a case of *Achilles mouth.* (just have to comment..LOL)

OLBERMANN: Now this defense, which we hear a lot, but in this case he's used it to the extreme and repeatedly; I was taken out of context. Would it not make sense to play the whole tape of the comment which was on radio about this restaurant, Sylvia's Restaurant, and the clientele and the ownership? Wouldn't it make sense to play it in full context on the television show that you own and operate? Is he afraid to do that? What's the psychology there, do you think?

KITTMAN: What you don't understand, Keith, is the context may be worse than the excerpts of it. And he would look even more unhinged if you actually heard what he was saying. What I was amazed about that—his going to Sylvia's restaurant that he actually went to a restaurant. You know, he doesn't go out very much. One, he's afraid people are going to get him. They're after him.

OLBERMANN: The untold story of Sylvia's. He bought. Unlike the Imus case last spring, there seems to be less outcry at this time, at least at this time. Maybe there would be later. But is there a confirmation in that, that society at-large understands there's some sort of diminished capacity here, and has no expectation of morality from him or from the people he works for or why the different reaction?

KITTMAN: Well, that's one way to look at it. If there was a basketball team involved, it might have been different. And it is food they're talking about in restaurants. And I just think that Imus is considered much more of a threat to society than Bill O'Reilly. And, you know, Keith, I don't have much time here, but I do want to say that you are responsible for contributing to O'Reilly's seeming to be unhinged.

By your mentioning him all the time, you are making a star out of him. You know, he lives for media attention. It is spinach. He's like Popeye and he has to get involved with some network or some newspaper column or some book and you're doing it. I should point that out to you. You might not be aware of it.

OLBERMANN: It's been brought up a couple of times in a couple of places. I guess we're going to have to leave the question of what we can do to help in his time of crisis.

KITTMAN: I think he's on the verge of having a breakdown. I think he needs psychiatric help and, of course, he told me that he would never pay a psychiatrist money to listen to him. And I would suggest we have a telethon in his honor to raise money.

Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 06:01 PM

I do believe that Tavis Smiley has hit the nail on the head. In an interview when asked about his thoughts about this incident (comment) he said something to the effect that he doubts sincerely that O'Reilly is a racist---what he is a very smart fox who has had not many headlines and this was one way of making them while not saying anything really negative. As, Mr. Smiley, contends he knows exactly what he was doing.

On another note--hopefully many watched Jon Stewart last evening---what a great riff on this:

1) Comment--Gee, ",...just like Italian Restaurants--must have have some mob killings in there".

2) Then their African- American "correspondent" went to Sylvias and when asked to order for a drink he asked for Mother F&*^%% Beer--they said that is no way to talk---he said he thought it was the house brand. Then proceeded to eat with his hands until it was pointed out that there was silverware. His reaction was how on the mark O'Reilly was---so much like so many other places.
       Great riff on the whole to-do.

   I don't think this compares, as some said, to Imus. His remarks were racist in a very direct way and slurred some hard working athletes. Would the air-waves be better off without these two---my opinion is SURE. The only difference to me, at this point, is that Imus crossed the line. As to Sharpton---he is one hell of an arbiter of right and wrong since his main interest seems to be Al Sharpton and his headlines

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 11:15 PM

In 1980 I was a ranger in a city park in Brooklyn, NY, where there was an open air roller skating rink. Our office was housed in the building (Wollman Rink, same name as the one in Central Park). As disco faded they were switching over to play a lot of the new music called rap for the skaters. It was upbeat and relatively inconsequential as far as the lyrics. As mindless as disco overall, but most of us found ourselves keeping up with the beat at times. It didn't take long for the nature of it to change, and for years I've avoided it because of this altered demeanor.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 02:13 AM

Mary -- you have to either control that cat or teach her the appropriate use of capitals....

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:51 PM

John:

Wal, by gum, you are right; his point was largely very different when taken in context. My apologies for leaping to conclusions -- I was distinctly predisposed to dislike Bill O'Reilly, and that's the truth.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:43 PM

Oh and for the record, Alba, YOUR integrity is intact, ya hear that!?

>:)~

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:41 PM

If you really want to you can listen to the idiot himself AND read more of his racist crap HERE.

From the September 19 edition of Westwood One's The Radio Factor:

    O"REILLY: Now, how do we get to this point? Black people in this country understand that they've had a very, very tough go of it, and some of them can get past that, and some of them cannot. I don't think there's a black American who hasn't had a personal insult that they've had to deal with because of the color of their skin. I don't think there's one in the country. So you've got to accept that as being the truth. People deal with that stuff in a variety of ways. Some get bitter. Some say, [unintelligible] "You call me that, I'm gonna be more successful." OK, it depends on the personality.

    So it's there. It's there, and I think it's getting better. I think black Americans are starting to think more and more for themselves. They're getting away from the Sharptons and the Jacksons and the people trying to lead them into a race-based culture. They're just trying to figure it out: "Look, I can make it. If I work hard and get educated, I can make it."

    You know, I was up in Harlem a few weeks ago, and I actually had dinner with Al Sharpton, who is a very, very interesting guy. And he comes on The Factor a lot, and then I treated him to dinner, because he's made himself available to us, and I felt that I wanted to take him up there. And we went to Sylvia's, a very famous restaurant in Harlem. I had a great time, and all the people up there are tremendously respectful. They all watch The Factor. You know, when Sharpton and I walked in, it was like a big commotion and everything, but everybody was very nice.

    And I couldn't get over the fact that there was no difference between Sylvia's restaurant and any other restaurant in New York City. I mean, it was exactly the same, even though it's run by blacks, primarily black patronship. It was the same, and that's really what this society's all about now here in the U.S.A. There's no difference. There's no difference. There may be a cultural entertainment -- people may gravitate toward different cultural entertainment, but you go down to Little Italy, and you're gonna have that. It has nothing to do with the color of anybody's skin.

    [...]

    O'REILLY: No, no, I mean, I like that soul food. I had the meatloaf special. I had coconut shrimp. I had the iced tea. It was great.

    WILLIAMS: Well, let me just tell you, the one thing I would say is this. And we're talking about the kids who still like this gangsta rap, this vile poison that I think is absolutely, you know, literally a corruption of culture. I think that what you've got to take into account that it's still a majority white audience -- young, white people who think they're into rebelling against their parents who buy this stuff and think it's just a kick. You know, it's just a way of expressing their anti-authoritarianism.

    O'REILLY: But it's a different -- it's a different dynamic, though.

    WILLIAMS: Exactly right --

    O'REILLY: Because the young, white kids don't have to struggle out of the ghetto.

    WILLIAMS: Right, and also, I think they can have that as one phase of their lives.

    O'REILLY: Yeah.

    WILLIAMS: I think too many of the black kids take it as, "Oh, that's what it means to be authentically black. That's how you make money. That's how you become rich and famous and get on TV and get music videos." And you either get the boys or the girls. The girls think they have to, you know, be half-naked and spinning around like they're on meth in order to get any attention. It really corrupts people, and I think it adds, Bill, to some serious sociological problems, like the high out-of-wedlock birth rate because of this hypersexual imagery that then the kids adapt to some kind of reality. I mean, it's inauthentic. It's not in keeping with great black traditions of struggle and excellence, from Willie Mays to Aretha Franklin, but even in terms of academics, you know, going back to people like Charles Drew or Ben Carson here, the neurosurgeon at [Johns] Hopkins [University]. That stuff, all of a sudden, is pushed aside. That's treated as, "You're a nerd, you're acting white," if you try to be excellent and black.

    O'REILLY: You know, and I went to the concert by Anita Baker at Radio City Music Hall, and the crowd was 50/50, black/white, and the blacks were well-dressed. And she came out -- Anita Baker came out on the stage and said, "Look, this is a show for the family. We're not gonna have any profanity here. We're not gonna do any rapping here." The band was excellent, but they were dressed in tuxedoes, and this is what white America doesn't know, particularly people who don't have a lot of interaction with black Americans. They think that the culture is dominated by Twista, Ludacris, and Snoop Dogg.

    WILLIAMS: Oh, and it's just so awful. It's just so awful because, I mean, it's literally the sewer come to the surface, and now people take it that the sewer is the whole story --

    O'REILLY: That's right. That's right. There wasn't one person in Sylvia's who was screaming, "M-Fer, I want more iced tea."

    WILLIAMS: Please --

    O'REILLY: You know, I mean, everybody was -- it was like going into an Italian restaurant in an all-white suburb in the sense of people were sitting there, and they were ordering and having fun. And there wasn't any kind of craziness at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:16 PM

John, where can we find that 'uncut version'?

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Alba
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 08:22 PM

So there you have it Amos.
"It's just another case of hating a guy so viscerally that one doesn't check the facts before reporting to the mudcat with glee that yet another conservative asshole has made yet another blunder"

As the opening 'cut n paster' and non-checker of facts (supposedly) that started this Thread it seems that I am a hate driven, gleefilled Mudcatter who has got Bill O' really all wrong.

Thanks John.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 08:02 PM

Amos,

I can't muster much oomph to defend O'Reilly. I really dislike the guy's manner and find little I agree with him on entirely. But on this matter I heard the uncut version of what was cut and pasted here -- both out of context and missing more than five minutes of dialogue from the initial quote(s) that changed the meaning of his words entirely.

It's just another case of hating a guy so viscerally that one doesn't check the facts before reporting to the mudcat with glee that yet another conservative asshole has made yet another blunder.

He didn't (make a blunder in this case) without the edit job that created the above quote that opened this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 07:33 PM

John,

I admire your defense, but I think you are a man of fine discrimination and perception, and surely must see that expressing great surprise at how "almost like white folks" a Harlem restaurant scene is, reveals a deep cultural prejudice, by implying it is a great exception to his expectations to see African Americans acting civilized. " 'Most like reg'l'ar hoomings, they were! I swan!"


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 07:26 PM

worth

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 07:25 PM

Damn fine post, Stilly! Your thoughts are always woth a good discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 06:51 PM

...and yet when NPR patronizinigly expresses rationalizations that blacks act a certain way (look! aren't they cute when they do that?!) because they are inherently inferior and must act like that....nobody here sees the racism in that. They don't because, viewed from the left, you allow as how NPR and the liberal elitist white have better intentions than O'Reilly.

John, I tell you there's more to the world of RAP than just Hos and Gangstas and you don't accept that, apparently. NPR isn't doing any such thing as you portray. And without listening to News and Notes, a black-produced news talk show from LA, you dismiss that news hour as a viable source. I think you know better than that. I used to listen to the Tavis Smiley Show on the radio in that time slot, but they moved him. He also takes a good close look at these issues and artists.

It is a mistake to dismiss any art form like this out of hand. Yes, it has a large number of "bad boys" in front, but the Black culture isn't all just gangsta rap. There is a growing level of response against the lyrics with violence and misogyny within that world. The artists who use the medium to respond, to take back rap, so to speak, should be heard before you dismiss them. Start with a big one who has been out there for a while. Queen Latifah. I don't personally listen to rap beyond what I hear on that program, it doesn't interest me, but what I hear on that program tells me that there is a dialog in the Black community and a lot of people are really tired of the overt sex and violence. Rap isn't one voice that speaks for a like-minded community. Rap is a cultural battleground.

It isn't going away, but it is changing.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:15 PM

Bill is one of the finest bigots who ever breathed.
His high water mark was the year when he called 9-11 widows disloyal to the USA and a disgrace to the country and the memory of the victims of 9-11. Telling this to thier face was priceless.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Alice
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:08 PM

My point exactly, Bee. O'Reilly stereotypes black people, but would
be angry if anyone stereotyped his Irish American background (see my post above).
He's so dense he doesn't even see that he is stereotyping.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 12:21 PM

Why apologize to me?

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Bee
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 12:13 PM

"Bill O'Reilly reported that he "had a great time, and all the people up there are tremendously respectful," adding: "I couldn't get over the fact that there was no difference between Sylvia's restaurant and any other restaurant in New York City. I mean, it was exactly the same, even though it's run by blacks, primarily black patronship." Later, during a discussion with National Public Radio senior correspondent and Fox News contributor Juan Williams about the effect of rap on culture, O'Reilly asserted: "There wasn't one person in Sylvia's who was screaming, 'M-Fer, I want more iced tea.' You know, I mean, everybody was -- it was like going into an Italian restaurant in an all-white suburb in the sense of people were sitting there, and they were ordering and having fun. And there wasn't any kind of craziness at all." O'Reilly also stated: "I think black Americans are starting to think more and more for themselves. They're getting away from the Sharptons and the [Rev. Jesse] Jacksons and the people trying to lead them into a race-based culture. They're just trying to figure it out. 'Look, I can make it. If I work hard and get educated, I can make it."

I have never heard BO, although I know who he is. I won't go into what I think of rap music, because I've heard different kinds, nicey-nicey to out and out nasty, it isn't my kind of music, and doesn't seem any worse than, say, death metal. And I think the putative sins of rap music are entirely beside the point.

What he is quoted as saying here makes him sound like an out of touch with reality throwback to about 1950 or earlier - or a colossal idiot - or both. How could he possibly be surprised that a black owned restaurant would not be particularly different from a white owned restaurant? Why would he expect "craziness"? What makes him think all black people are mindless followers of whatever black people are in the media eye at the moment? What reality does he inhabit if he hasn't noticed the vast numbers of educated working black people in the world around him - does he never go to the bank, schools, shops, car dealers, repair places, etc?

Sorry, John Hardly: it walks and quacks like a duck. I'm inclined to think it's a duck.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: pdq
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:32 AM

Rap is to music what graffiti is to house painting.

O'Reilly has been a constant critic of the foul-mouthed garbage for at least the last decade. So have Bill Cosby and other Black folks who see it as a death knell for Black culture and the respect earned through Jazz and other forms of high art.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:24 AM

The last line in my last post should have read - "Let's see what Sharpton's reaction will be and what O'Reilly's handlers will be"

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Alice
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:23 AM

Would Bill O'Reilly get the point if anyone said, "Gee I was in an Irish bar the other night
and they were not all beating their wives and drinking themselves blind."
He is so ignorant of his own prejudices it is ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:17 AM

I answered your questions in my original note. There are no red herrings here.   Just watch for what I suggested in my original note.   Let's see what Sharpton's reaction will be and what his handlers will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:05 AM

Hey Ron,

Why don't you argue my points? Have I not answered yours?

Who are my "spin doctors"? I don't get that. Because I don't agree with you, I must be getting information from "spin doctors"?   If my arguements are "spin" then they should be easy for you to address. Why don't you address them instead of offering up a red herring? Or two?

You asked me "Who are you to pass judgement?".

Did you not pass judgement on Bill O'Reilly?   So... Who are you to pass judgement?

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:55 AM

Yes, it is very rich. You've learned a lot from your spin doctors John! Good job at turning this around.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:48 AM

"Who are you to pass judgement? "

Not to be missed: The above quote is the riches of all ironies. You passed judgement on an entirely positive observation made by Bill O'Reilly.....and judged that it was entirely negative....


...and then had the BALLS to ask me "Who are you to pass judgement?"....simply because I disagree with you. Rich. Rich indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:37 AM

"John, you make a strong case why this country needs NPR and liberals."

In what way?

"Who are you to pass judgement? You speak out of one side of your mouth by saying that NPR is wrong to "excuse" bad behavior, and out of the otherside of your mouth you feel comfortable in excusing O'Reilly. You can't have it both ways. Tell us more about irony."

I don't get what you're saying, Ron. I'm saying that NPR is allowing as how gangsta rap with it's drumbeat of referring to black women as Bitches and Hos is patronizing. As O'Reilly has observed, it is degrading to all blacks to assume, as NPR does, that this kind of music is: 1. okay, and 2. okay with the average black (like the ones he observed in the restaurant who appeared not to share gangsta rap values.).

If I'm excusing O'Rielly, relative you your previous accusations, it is merely because O'Reilly said NOTHING BAD about the blacks he encountered. Quite the opposite.

"To look for a reason as to why "gangsta" rap exists is not making an excuse for its existence."

Yes, it is.

"You are wrong when you say that conservatives are not invited - in the specific examples I gave they certainly were. Your comment that the groups are expecting "more government" is also biased - and when our current regime seems to thrive on creating more government, I'm not sure how you can justify that comment."

Well, you've added yet another element. The current administration is by NO defenition "conservative".

"Yes, O'Reilly had nothing but praise for the restaurant. I'm sure Sylvia's will be using his quotes in their next ads."

Your sarcasm doesn't change the truth. O'Reilly had nothing but praise for the restaurant. Whether the restaurant uses quotes is up to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:26 AM

John, you make a strong case why this country needs NPR and liberals.

Who are you to pass judgement? You speak out of one side of your mouth by saying that NPR is wrong to "excuse" bad behavior, and out of the otherside of your mouth you feel comfortable in excusing O'Reilly. You can't have it both ways. Tell us more about irony.

To look for a reason as to why "gangsta" rap exists is not making an excuse for its existence.

You are wrong when you say that conservatives are not invited - in the specific examples I gave they certainly were. Your comment that the groups are expecting "more government" is also biased - and when our current regime seems to thrive on creating more government, I'm not sure how you can justify that comment.

Yes, O'Reilly had nothing but praise for the restaurant. I'm sure Sylvia's will be using his quotes in their next ads.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:08 AM

Ron,

Even if it were granted that O'Reilly may have shown a latent racism by accidentally exposing his lower expectations of black behavior, the worst his observation could be is an embarrassment to him. He had nothing but praise for the restaurant and its patrons. Imus echoed the gangst rapper's own "bitches and Hoes" talk. That is something entirely different.

One of the main reasons that conservatives don't generally address assemblages of black political groups is: 1. They are rarely invited, and 2. They have nothing to offer a group whose expectation of "doing something" is more government -- again, based on the racist notion the blacks are incapable of making it on their own and, thus, need more government aid. The conservative ideology does not accept racial inferiority of anyone like liberal ideology does.

Stilly,

The liberal elitists at NPR show their tacit racism when they excuse bad behavior and language in "gangsta rap". It's an irony here that everyone seems capable of seeing the possible racism implied by O'Reilly's observation when he expresses surprise that blacks act a certain way...

...and yet when NPR patronizinigly expresses rationalizations that blacks act a certain way (look! aren't they cute when they do that?!) because they are inherently inferior and must act like that....nobody here sees the racism in that. They don't because, viewed from the left, you allow as how NPR and the liberal elitist white have better intentions than O'Reilly.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: GUEST,Mr Sock
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 09:58 AM

"The man has the IQ of a sock"

I take offence to that comparison Ron:)
I. at least, serve a purpose and I know what my purpose is.
That suggests to me that I have a far superior IQ than this Schlock Jock from foxy newz!

Forgivingly,
Mr. Sock

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 09:42 AM

What is really the interesting part of this story is to see how the players are going to react.

Rev. Sharpton's outrage at comments made by Don Imus led to the radio hosts dismissal and potentially ended his career.

What will Sharpton say about his dinner companion? Were the comments made by O'Reilly any better than what Imus said?    So far, Sharpton has been quiet - other than saying he will ask O'Reilly what he meant.

The real interesting story is to see how O'Reilly's handlers will spin this story.   Roger Ailes, the worlds ultimate spin doctor, is O'Reilly's boss and a man with strong ties to the conservative regime in this country.    IF there is an outcry, how will Fox treat their golden boy?

O'Reilly is not the story. The man has the IQ of a sock. He is a puppet with a tiny IQ and merely reacts as he is told. He is an child playing in traffic and events like this show how he lacks the skills to do his job.


This story will speak volumes about the conservative movement. This week alone, the Republicans are being questioned for the lack of ANY Republican candidate at a forum in Baltimore on issues of importance to African-Americans. Last month, Univision had to cancel a Republcian debate because only one Republican candidate would agree to appear on the Spanish language network sponsored debate.

Say what you will, but this story is yet another example of how out of touch the conservative movement is with the country.

This is family values?

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Grab
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 08:03 AM

I'd need to have heard the context, but to be honest, the second and third quotes actually sound like compliments. The attitude surrounding rap (the "gangsta" thing) *is* primarily a black attitude, which leads to the easy (and wrong!) assumption that it's the *only* black attitude. Those two quotes, it sounds like he's just trying to say that rap culture doesn't represent regular black people. I don't believe that Sharpton and Jackson are only about asking for positive discrimination and handouts - that's a simplistic and negative view - but if that *is* what you think about those guys then saying "blacks aren't looking for a handout and want to make it on their own terms" is also a positive statement.

Of course, both those statements should be bleeding obvious. But if you're on a talkshow, you might be dealing with some prat where it would be necessary to make those statements.

As for the first one, yes, it sounds not right. But maybe he's describing that epiphany moment where he *did* get it, having not really absorbed the situation before. I had exactly that moment myself. I'm a white Brit, I grew up in an all-white area, and everywhere I've lived there's been a large white majority. When I was working in Detroit a few years back, I went to the bicentenary events in the city centre. Great fun, good bands, lovely atmosphere. And then my mind just clicked, and I noticed for the first time that there, *I* was the "ethnic minority", and the situation was black folks treating white folks equitably instead of the other way round. For me with my background, it was like a Zen satori - the difference between intellectually thinking something and truly absorbing it. If that's the kind of experience that O'Reilly was describing, then more power to him.

As Mickey says, that probably does mean that he can't accurately report on black issues, because he won't know shit about black issues. Still, at least he'd know not to misrepresent the situation.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 07:25 AM

"Actually, it isn't. Some of it is very witty and thoughtful"

Yeah, O'Reilly's just making up all that stuff about "Bitches" and "Whores" and cop killing.

"This really reminds me of the Barbara Bush comment about the blacks relocated to Houston after Katrina when she said, looking out over the people with their temporary cots and k-rations "they are actually quite lucky. Most of them have never had it so good" or words to that effect. It's the kind of racism that is of the purest form, because the speaker really believes it, has no hostile intentions, can't imagine anyone objecting, and means it in the nicest way."

There may be some of that. Not much any more, but some. But it's not nearly so insidious or harmful as the hangers-on from the 60s who don't see the inherent racism in their assumption that Blacks are so inherently inferior that they -- alone from all other races -- are in need of white (government) assistance to survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:11 AM

And this is where we get our news? No, thank God. He's a talk-radio, talk-tv demagogue.
This really reminds me of the Barbara Bush comment about the blacks relocated to Houston after Katrina when she said, looking out over the people with their temporary cots and k-rations "they are actually quite lucky. Most of them have never had it so good" or words to that effect. It's the kind of racism that is of the purest form, because the speaker really believes it, has no hostile intentions, can't imagine anyone objecting, and means it in the nicest way.
Bill will probably feel a little heat over this, but Fox News will react ONLY to a boycott of sponsored products and I'm not sure this will generate that reaction, so he'll continue with his pompous rightwing aggressive agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: RangerSteve
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:11 AM

Oops, it should have been BO - Bill O'Rielly. Somehow it got into my head that his first hame was John. Sorry.

Actually, BO is a much better abbr.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:11 AM

Gotta backup John on this one...

O'Reilly loves to get liberal hackels up, he does it for a living... and he has done it here, apparently... The thing is, though it may be possible to read into his descriptions all kinds of biases and prejudices, they may not have been intended as such. He could talk about the color of money and piss off a lot of people.

Since O'Reilly is talking here about what a good time he had... to his audience... he may be using a language you don't speak, and in fact don't understand... just like he doesn't understand 'liberal-speak'.

What's more... He may have genuinely been moved... and so I say Great!

All in all... I'd say no small amount of over reaction is occuring here on this one, and I should know overreaction when I see it... 'cause I do it a lot! ;^)

We all know how much O'Reilly rubs you the wrong way...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 12:55 AM

JO? Who is that? Or is that an intimate name for O'Reilly?

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: RangerSteve
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:27 PM

Someone asked where O'Reilly was from. He claimed to be from Levittown, Long Island, just east of New York CIty. Levittown is a working class town, built after WWII, a series of affordable housing developements designed to give people affordable housing. Al Franken found that JO was really from Westbury, LI, which is actually a more afflluent white town. JO then said that he was from the Levittown section of Westbury. There's no such thing. I grew up in a town that abutted both, and they are separate towns. JO had a better than usual childhood, probably free from contact with black people. That's still no reason for him to just realize now that, basically, they're no different than any of us. His description of his dinner sounds like he was describing a performance by chimpanzees. Maybe he thought he was.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:22 PM

I'd like to see someone tell Queen Latifah that rap is vile and worthy of an idjit white man's outrage. Fer fuck's sake, John...you're hardly (no pun intended) ever this obtuse. I am sure you know very well what the ruckus is about. Why in the world would you want to defend such an idiot?

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:05 PM

I think he may have been aiming at me, Alba and hit you. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Alba
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 09:23 PM

Eh actually I was more taken aback at O'Really's remarks about Sylvia's Restaurant and it's patrons and owners...next time I go there I will have to try and see Sylvia's in context with O Really's remarks regarding Rap Culture~~?! Then again, no, I think I will just enjoy my meal.



I am 5 foot 10 inches tall (quite tall for Woman) so I am not often talked down to. I think I have just experienced being talked down to and I think...although I am not sure, I may also have been labelled an idiot into the bargain. mmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 09:18 PM

The rap culture is vile and worthy of Reilly's outrage.

Actually, it isn't. Some of it is very witty and thoughtful.

You need to listen to News and Notes on NPR. They interview a lot of those artists, and rap artists are just as diverse as rock artists or folk artists or even classical artists. You just don't know it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 09:11 PM

John Hardly, I can hardly believe you are that obtuse. It's about blacks (or other 'coloured' people) being HUMAN and actually knowing how to behave like humans instead of 'apes'.

No, rap is NOT that pervasive.
How do I know what the 'typical black' cares for?
(What is a 'typical black' anyway?)
A 'healthy' thing? Well, is rock music a 'healthy' thing for White Culture?
(What is White Culture anyway?)

Please define Black Culture. I'm interested.


(Waiting for Azzizi to check in here....)

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 09:07 PM

O'Reilly's comments were made in the context of the rap culture (part of his ongoing "culture war"). I'm assuming that since everyone here disagrees with O'Reilly, then everyone here must think that the typical Harlem restaurant would reflect a culture that revels in its Hollywood/Major Media depiction as a rap/gangsta steeped culture.

O'Reilly's an idiot. No doubt about it. But sometimes it can be quite a dance to make sure that when one criticizes the idiots, they are not, themselves, being idiots.

The rap culture is vile and worthy of Reilly's outrage. Too bad though -- it was once said "If you want truth to fail, put it in the mouth of an idiot".

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 09:04 PM

It is not a case of objection, John Hardly, as you well know. (What's rap got to do with it?) We are expressing dismay that a man has reached the age of 50 in this country not to mention having reached a position of influence and power without having come to understand the common humanity of man.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Alba
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 08:51 PM

Too obtuse for me John...not sure what your point is?

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 08:49 PM

So are you guys insisting that the rap culture is so pervasive that a typical restaurant in Harlem would reflect it?

Or is O'Reilly right when he observes that the typical black doesn't care for the rap culture or its associations with being black?

Do you guys think that the rap culture is a healthy thing for black culture? Do you think it is representative of black culture?

Not sure what your objection is here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 08:42 PM

and a sign on his back...

Subject: RE: BS: Bill Oh Really of Fox News does it again
From: Amos
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 08:29 PM

I think he should be tied to a street corner in Harlem for 72 hours in a suit.

A