BS: Feral Cat Advice?

Subject: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Bee
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 12:25 PM

I'll be talking to my vet tomorrow, but want to know some of the Mudcat catters' experience - I know some of you have dealt with feral cats.

I've mentioned this kitty before - she showed up a couple months ago, and looks to be about six-seven months old now, and I've tracked her origin to a local couple who feed a small group of ferals, but otherwise ignore their health and tendency to procreate lavishly, and they never handle them. She never left, even when initially not fed, having apparently fallen in love with our own pampered puss.

Of course, as she got thinner and more hollow about the cheeks, we started feeding her, as obviously no one else was. About a week ago, she finally started letting me pet her, first for just a few seconds before running away, and now she will come looking for pets if I sit quietly for a few minutes, take food from my fingers, and even allow me to briefly lift her a few inches off the ground. She seems very non-aggressive. Now my husband has generously (trust me, it's generous of him) said that we can pay to have her spayed and needled, providing we can catch her and the vet will put up with a wild kitty.

I don't know if it will ever be possible to make a house pet of her (but there's a chance, given her recent behaviour), but if I can tame her enough, there's the possibility she might be able to move into a closeby neighbour's warm shed and be fed regularly, which at least gives her a chance against winter and coyotes.

So have any of you ever taken a feral cat to the vet without wounds to anyone concerned? Any thoughts, advice? I think I can catch her, and I have a carrier.

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 12:34 PM

It is possible, but often painful.

Most painful can be her rejection of you after all you've done to try and help this poor puss. However, spaying her before she gets exhausted through kittenbirth is a kindness beyond all price.

Patience and endurance are necessities, but feral cats can find happy and fulfilled lives as pets, particularly if you don't expect too much of them.

Personally, I'd be tempted to talk to my vet about the neighbours who feed these animals but don't care about them and ask him for some leaflets about animal control and the perils of unneutered Toms and whole Queens that someone could slip through their door undetected, on a regular basis.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Bee
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 12:50 PM

Thanks, Liz - I'm prepared for utter rejection and never seeing her again, but her main attachment seems to be our neutered year old cat, who's allowed out by day but in before dark. She puts up with his very rough play, and sits on the deck crying for him after dark, and is waiting when he comes out at daylight.

I'm frankly amazed she's come this far. I'm worried I won't be able to give her much in the way of after surgery care, but I guess it's still a better chance for her than having endless litters or catching distemper.

As for the neighbours - the wife feels guilty about the whole thing, the husband has developed a fingers-in-ears attitude: he can't afford the vet care and won't take 'em to the SPCA. I admit, I figure she'll have no chance at the SPCA, they're overwhelmed with tame cats, and so are the few no-kill cat shelters.

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 01:09 PM

My mom has a ministry to feral cats in the LA area. She catches and gets vetted/spayed any that are catchable, or just feeds them to keep them nearby and THEN, if and when they need help and are more trusting and catchable, takes them in for care. (She has a cage rigged for baiting and catching.)

The way this works for her is that she never TRIES to make pets out of them and treats them more like the wildlife they actually are...

A few that may have once been pets have made friends, and gotten names, and visit daily as she sits outside. But again, she doesn't confuse these with her come-inside pets because she's seen how heartbreaking that can be and prefers to just enjoy the company when they care to keep it.

Don't confuse a feral cat that will come to you with one that will let you grab it, or you may lose a hand or your life from the infections they can pass along. If you grab, you're a predator, and they will usually fight to escape and live.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Greg B
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 01:30 PM

We have a colony of feral cats at the horse barn. They
are the outgrowth of someone having fed the colony, and having
not done any vetting or fixing. Then they decided to stop feeding,
so it became our problem.

Two of the kittens have become house pets--- by dint of some
early handling and by dint of their having 'chose' us. They are
wonderful pets. Ferals are not wild by nature--- it's all by
'nurture.'

Some kittens have gone to the SPCA, again after planning and
handling, and will make good pets.

We took some to our regular vet to be fixed, but he was
pretty uncooperative and not very understanding that it was a
question of 'we have to do it when we can catch them.'

We have since found a group, Forgotten Cats, that operates a
$25.00 spay/neuter clinic in the area. We took three adolescent
females there last year. There web-site is excellent and educational:
see www.forgottencats.org They are somewhat more understanding
of the 'get them while you can' problem. They also lend humane
traps. The $25.00 also includes basic inoculations and worming.

Two of the cats we have neutered have disappeared in the last
few months. Such are the risks of life in the rough. There are two
more young kittens from a mother who is un-catchable, and they will
likely be given a reprieve as a result. We need the barn cats as
service animals.

We have two resident toms, and that seems to be okay. If one wandered
into a trap, we'd neuter him.

The youngsters are easy to catch by hand when adolescent--- they
haven't gotten too canny yet. Leather gloves are sometimes a good
idea.

We do feed the population. Cheap hard and soft food. And we
slip wormer in.

Sometimes, to get a colony under control, you have to 'dispatch'
a cat, particularly an un-catchable breeding female. That isn't
much fun, but is a fact of farm life. Of course if you live in
city limits, your options there are somewhat limiting. Not having
to do that is why we're making every effort spay the 'kitten
machines.'

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 01:43 PM

If you feed a feral cat, you take responsibility for that animal. Your assisting this animal's survival will have an effect on your neighbors and their pets, and on local birds and other wildlife. So, if you're the one feeding the cat, it ought to be your responsibility to see that it is healthy and that it has been spayed or neutered.
When I lived in the city, the woman next door thought she was doing a good thing by feeding feral cats. Ten cats took up residence in my yard, and I got to watch them toy with the lizards and mice and birds they caught. Finally, we convinced the woman the cats were a problem; and they were trapped and spayed or neutered, and the sick ones were euthanized. Within a few months, their number decreased and they were no longer a problem.
Cats are cute, but they're a big nuisance in large numbers. If you aren't going to care for them, please don't feed them.

-Joe-
(whose wife keeps three cats too many, but at least they're fixed)

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Bee
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 02:28 PM

Good advice and wise words from everybody, thanks.

I know she's still wild (and likely to stay that way) and will be wearing protective gear if/when I have to catch her. I still have to see if the vet's willing, or if I have to go further - our vet, the nearest, is forty km. away.

Joe, I'm well aware of the ramifications, but I cannot watch this cat die on my property without taking that responsibility and getting her fixed and needled at least. I live in a very rural area, with few near neighbours, all of whom would be reasonably sympathetic (I've spoken to most of them, making sure no one else had decided to take on responsibility for this cat - no such luck). We're quite LALL - I put up with the wandering Saint Bernard, they put up with the occasional cat.

I'll add that environments differ. Cats in Australia are a huge problem. Cats in cities can be a huge problem, or in small towns. Out here, their numbers are more than controlled by our burgeoning coyote population. Those same coyotes are problematic, as some think they are a useful new predator (they prey on everything from mice, birds and rabbits to full grown deer) and others think they are already out of hand.

On the subject of bird predation by cats, at least here in Nova Scotia, I am inclined to think the frighteningly extensive clearcutting of forest both here and in the migrating birds winter homes, plus spraying of forests with pesticides and herbicides, plus two-cropping of hayfields, and other human activities, are far more deletorious to bird populations than feral and domestic cats. I suspect the cats are as much a scapegoat now as they were in witch hunting days.

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 03:11 PM

The folks at the tv station where my Rog works has taken care of feral cats for years, now. They had help from the Humane Society in catching in safe traps and spaying and neutering them. My daughter bought an outside shelter for them and everyone contributes to buying food for them. They will come up to eat with some of the employees but only the ones they feel safe with; otherwise they stay a safe distance from others.

Our vet is very understanding and does a lot of feral cat work for the city and county. My Kipling was basically feral when my daughter caught him in a blanket. It has taken a LOT of patience, ten years worth, but he now lets me, and me only, pick him up for about two seconds! But, he also sleeps with us on the bed and on top of my monitor and loves to be petted. So there is some hope. I was worried about taking him to the vet for teeth cleaning. They handled him very well, none of us were scratched, he stayed calm, they put him *under* to do the work, then he was fine when I brought him home.

I also had another feral one I adopted, but she was so tiny, she fit inside a coffee mug, I was able to nurture her from the start and she was a lover.

Good for you for taking care.

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 03:19 PM

An item by a vet in the local paper suggested patience, patience and more patience. A cat already in the house helps tremendously. A few will accept food, live in the house, but will never accept close handling; the vet said let her have her privacy.
This vet (and, I would think, most of them) knows how to put a cat under without receiving wounds that require stitches; this has to be done for the operation anyway, and even a friendly, 'docile' cat may sense !danger! and put up a struggle.

Greg B. seems to have a similar situation to yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 03:31 PM

A little over 7 years ago Tom and I acquired two kittens from a feral that had littered underneath a house a few towns over. Mom was sick and the person who owned the house corraled the kittens and got mom to the vet and eventually had her spayed. Mom was from a loooooooong line of ferals.

Anywho, the pair that we acquired would never let us touch or pet them. (Well, Banjo did -- under duress. She'd have a very put upon look on her face -- "Oh, that petting thing again." She certainly didn't like it, but put up with it occasionally.

Basically she and Creamsicle ate our food, used our litterbox, etcet etcet and ran whenever "The Giants" were around. You know what? You can't bond to a cat who won't let you pet her.

Banjo escaped several years ago when we were doing some deck and doorway construction, but I certainly wasn't going to let Creamsicle get outside without being spayed.

So...we got a Hav-A-Heart trap and trapped her. She had to stay in the trap to be transported to the vet and she was only out of the trap while she was sedated and during the surgery. (I think our vet gave us a break on the spaying.) She was transported home still in the trap and under vet's orders to stay in the trap for another day while she healed.

Seems that, to her, we just verified her distrust of "The Giants".

After she healed, etc. and the weather got better, we started leaving the door open, hoping she'd find her way outside. (Not totally abandoned -- there's good shelter with the goats in the barn up the hill, more shelter down the hill, too. And, if necessary, we intended to leave food and water until she got re-acclimated to the feral life.) It took a few months -- every time she'd go out on the deck, she'd run back inside if Tom approached.

One day she was on the far edge of the deck and didn't notice Tom until he was in the doorway. She dove off the back of the deck and hasn't been seen since. (But I haven't talked to my neighbor lately -- Creamsicle might be in the barn.)

From my experience and from that of others with whom I've talked, feral cats seldom make satisfactory pets -- too many generations of distrust of humans. I would NEVER again attempt to gentle feral kittens into pets. It's all give...and never get.

I like my cats snuggly, thanks.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 03:53 PM

I think you're right about environments, Bee. When I lived in the Sacramento area, the climate was relatively mild - hot and dry in the summer and wet and mild in winter. The elevation was about 40 feet above sea level, and we rarely had frost or snow.
Now I'm in a forested area, 2,300 feet above sea level. We have coyotes and mountain lions to keep the feral cat population down, and we have snow two to five times a season. It's still a very moderate climate (and not as beastly hot during the summer), but I think the wilder environment keeps the cat population in balance. We have lots of songbirds. We also have lots of rodents, and I'm glad we have a four cats to keep the rodents in check (even though I am fond of only one of the four, and he's more-or-less useless in the rat control department). I suppose if we didn't have cats to keep the rodents in check, we'd have more rattlesnakes (the cats tend to keep them away, too).
Now I realize the rattlesnakes are an endangered species and all, but I'd rather not have them in the yard. I'm funny that way.

But in the city of Sacramento, feral cats could be a problem, and they really did have a bad effect on the songbird population. I'd rarely see birds smaller than magpies and jays, and the population of wonderful California quail* seemed to go down as the number of cats increased. It's all a matter of balance. If we humans are going to affect the balance by feeding feral cats, then I think we need to be responsible in sterilizing them and keeping them healthy. Seems to me you're doing the right thing, Bee.

-Joe-


*I was worried this year because I hadn't seen any quail - but last week, I saw several broods, a total of over 40 birds in the neighborhood. Made me feel a lot better.

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Becca72
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 04:40 PM

http://www.feralfelines.net/db.shtml

This is the organization here in Southern Maine for feral felines. They even have rehab and adoption for the cats that can deal with that. You may want to look around and see if there is such an organization in your area that can help with the population down the road. The older couple is not doing the cats any favors and if there is such a group in your area they may well step in and help.

Sorry, I don't know how to make a clicky...

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 04:42 PM

Your local SPCA should be able to refer you to whatever vet they have under contract this year, and you can call ahead to confirm they'll take a feral cat and handle it as above. If they KNOW it's feral, they know how to handle it safely.

What follows is not suitable reading for the faint of heart:

I had another vet in another situation come out to a farm I managed for awhile, to humanely dispose of the sick and infectious feral poulation there. Those kitties were lured to a room in a place with food and then brought from the room one at a time for a shot straight to the heart, laid out on a kitchen table. It was grim. So grim. Stacking warm dead cats in garbage bags. I was the assistant-- the holder of these beautiful but deadly cats while he put them down fast. The last tomcat cursed me with his dying yellow gaze. He was tough. But they were all hungry enough to catch.

It was an awful time on that farm.... the manager had been gone a long time and left the annual winter culling to me, but I didn't come upon all this till early spring. Untrimmed hooves curling under, hens without feathers....

How I found the helpful vet was, I brought him a sick rabbit that had been allowed to live with one leg chewed to a scarred stump by a rat, in its rabbity infancy. Could hardly hop to the food in the wire-floored cage. Heartbreaking. Person before me would feed critters but didn't LOOK at them. Vet fixed me up; soon, when he knew what-all I was having to deal with, he was very, VERY kind to me as I worked my way through just about every small group of farm animal you can imagine.

One goat was wasting away and I never knew why-- until I found the frozen bucket stuffed with the frozen corpse of a large, perfectly formed kid. There was no placenta with the stillborn kid. Duh-- she'd retained it and had been sick ever since as it decomposed.... helpful Mr. Vet gave me antibiotics. She picked up, finally.

Awful time. A cow that had to go moo'ed at me all the way out of the barnyard from the trailer I lured her into.... I had become the only person she'd ever allowed to touch her, and she jumped right in that trailer for me, and off she went. A few days later I claimed the hide for an ed project. When I laid it out, to dry the hide, her face was still attached, still looking up at me with that LOOK. Damn slaughterhouse hadn't removed it for me-- joke on the city girl. YOu had to ASK to have head or no head.

Culling life in early spring when it's supposed to be starting, not ending. BAD time.


Well, back to feral cats. We had one in the house that had been a pet somewhere, had failed litterbox 101 there, and had been dumped at the farm where we rent the house. She was always very sweet, and liked to be petted, but held-- NO. It took me an hour to get her re-caught in the van when I took her in for spay. They gave her back to me IN a carrier and reported that they'd just handled her with feral protocol after I'd shared how hard it was to nab her. She became an honored outdoor cat policing the farm rats.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 08:02 PM

There is a great site for feral cat advocates called Alley Cats - lemme get ya a link:

www.alleycat.org/

The cat who lives under my cottage, Inky, was semi-feral when I made up my mind to be his "mommy" and it took a few months for him to become a cuddler. However, he still doesn't like being held much and he comes and goes on his own terms.

He hates going to the vet and will usually pee on us once we start stuffing him in the carrier and withing a few minutes of being on the road he has what I call "the terror poops" - involuntary emptying of his bowel. At first it's not so bad but on the trip home when he's got little left, he evacuates thin runny brown liquid and he then has to be cleaned up. I make sure to have baby wipes at the read so that as we let him out, I can grab him with a towel and wipe him down well. I have to leave a soap and water cleaning for the next day.

So - when we take Inky to the vet, we always schedule it for the first appointment of the day and if they say we can't have that appt - we beg them to let us bring him and wait for an opening. We snag him first thing as he comes sauntering in for breakfast.

If your girl has come to expect that you will put food out at a certain time of the morning - that will have to be the time you grab her for vet trips. Make sure the Vet knows you cannot say for sure when she last ate or drank so they can keep her for the last surgery of the afternoon. They need to be sure her tummy has been empty for at least 6 to 8 hours.

Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 08:15 PM

Well, if the cat lets you pet it it ain't too far from being un-feraled...

We have one on our farm and what folks have told us is that as long as we have him he'll keep the others away, which BTW, he has done for the entire last year that he has been here but...

... no matter, he ain't goin' go for no pettin'... That's kinda the line between feral and domesticated...

Enjoy your kitty... Be sure to get its shots and fixed and all that...

Meow...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 08:25 PM

As for the birds and that, if you're feeding the cat she's much less likely to go after them. Cat's aren't stupid, and they tend to like to take it easy, even feral cats.

This one sounds like it rather fancies an easier life style anyway, and she's probably young enough to adapt.

Strays aren't quite the same as feral, but a stray who's had to look after itself for a fair time isn't that different - and we've has a couple of cats like that. One of them we adopted when she was pregnant, and they were lovely kittens. Then we had her spayed - but soon after, when she was off wandering, she was run over and killed. Here's a picture of the kitten we ended up keeping, Joshua. (He is waiting for Christmas Dinner.)

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Bee
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 08:39 PM

Thanks again - I'll be link readin' for a while.

Joe, we usually have a fair amount of snow, and several weeks of very cold temps, and a lot of freezing rain and sleet. We have lots of small birds, though less whenever there's been a major clearcut nearby. As for rodents... we got our new cat last November. Between Sept and Nov. I trapped eighteen mice, and squirrels tore the insulation in the garage roof to shreds. Just the scent of a cat solved the problem.

WYSIWYG, that sounds like a horrible time. While not quite as bad, since only cats were involved, here's my not for the squeamish story. One set of my grandparents had a large farm, and they had barn cats, and then they stopped farming, and then my grandfather died. He used to dispose of kittens regularly. Within a few years, the cat pop. exploded (no coyotes back then, and they had a barn for shelter), and my grandmother continued feeding them - barely enough to survive. At least they were outdoors.

When she finally had to move in with her daughter, back in the nineteen sixties, my gentle Dad was assigned to dispose of 34 wild, distemper-infected cats that no one could care for. He borrowed a gun and shot... one. Then he rigged an old hauling trailer to be airtight, proceeded to catch as many as he could with a net and food, attached the car exhaust to the trailer, and came home many hours later. He never said a word about how that went, though I suspect not so well - but the cats were dead and buried.

Whether I can 'pacify' her or no, this kitty's gittin' fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Alba
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 08:43 PM

Here's a Link to Becca's site, some good info there. Friends of Feral Felines


I share my hay store space with Mr. Feral, well I figure it's his turf that I built the store on:) One Winter due to really harsh weather I helped him out with food. After the thaw he went back to getting his own. He still visits nightly and has, on two occasions, accepted a stroke! He sleeps in the Hay Store when the chill comes around. Fine by me.

He's a Rodent King

I know he is a Feral but I had to give him a name....*smile*    Don Juan

Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 09:00 PM

Bee, thanks! That helped! Awful, but then life sometimes is.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 12:40 AM

Bee and Susan, THANK YOU for noting your posts were not for the faint at heart. I did not read them and don't want, BUT I REALLY appreciate your warnings.

Joe, a Jack Russell will take care of the rats for you! The one where my dau. worked, a riding stable, brought dead rats in on an almost daily basis. The other thing that works to keep snakes away is a horse. They don't like the ground being trod on etc. the way a horse does. We never saw one snake in all the time we lived on the WY prairie, with a horse, outside of town except for a tiny garter snake the cats found and brought into the house.

I believe that patience, patience, patience thing. It really has taken over ten years for Kipling to get to where I can pick him up and it really is only for a couple of seconds. I like my cats cuddly, too, but I've got Trsytan for that and Kipling is gorgeous and purrs really loudly when he gets up on the bed. THIS year he has actually waltzed right up on my chest a couple of times after I've lain down, but he doesn't stay. I can pet his forehead and stroke his back and rump, as well as gently pull his tail, IF he is snuggled down on the bed or when he sashays past a chair I am sitting in. He has never scratched as he tries to be a gentleman, but he lets us know he will NOT be forced into anything. He's like a ninja with ten shooting stars with his claws and legs braced stiff! we do love him, though and he loves us, in his own fashion.

I've put up some new photos of Kipling at My Opera Page. He's the Siamese. He is in a baby bassinet with Trsytan, the grey tabby and the late Charlee one of my "beige brothers" twins.

McGrath, Joshua is beautiful!

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: The PA
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 03:27 AM

We have all our stable cats from the Cats Protection League in the UK. They are without exception feral cats which have turned up at the charity for some reason or another. They are kept confined in one of the stables, in a large (great dane size) dog cage with lots of places to hide and the cage half covered so they have a dark place. This apparently makes them feel secure. We feed and water them twice a day in the cage (there's a litter tray in there too which is kept clean). The stable door is left open so that they can hear and see whats going on around them. After two weeks, in the evening when everyone has gone we open the door of the cage and leave their food just outside. Usually the next day they will still be around hiding and keeping an eye on everything. They are then fed in the same place at the same time every day. We've had cats for years and years on the yard and this system has always worked. They do a great job with rats mice and rabbits. But we still feed them then they know this is their base. When they come the older ones are already spayed, and the CPL will always come back to catch the kittens when they are old enough to be spayed. They never become friendly but are sort of tolerant of our presence around the stables, but i suppose that's cats!

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Greg B
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 10:57 AM

The two ferals which came home with us definitely chose us (what
a surprise, they're cats). When you have a cat in the barn that
ignores the other cats but won't let you alone, that's a
candidate. Neither of them, though, likes to be held much.
Petted, yes. One of them shows up a couple of times in the
night, seeking reassurance and perhaps an arm to wrap himself
around for a nap.

Many of the others' affections seem directly proportional to
their degree of hunger.

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 08:48 PM

SO how did it go Bee? Did you get her wrangled into a carrier alright?

My semi-feral fella Inky is snoozing on my porch right now not looking terribly fierce but woe to any rodents that dare enter the yard or gardens! He averages about 2 mice a week and kindly deposits them right in front of the door on the welcome mat. We've learned not to step outisde in the dark without shoes on!

Subject: RE: BS: Feral Cat Advice?
From: Greg B
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 10:00 PM

...and the mouse police never sleeps!

(Jethro Tull, "Heavy Horses")