BS: Clear English

Subject: BS: Clear English
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 06:28 PM

This has been around for years:

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure, you realise, that what you heard, is not what I meant.

Any other examples?

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: sian, west wales
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 06:36 PM

Not exactly the same idea but ... I used to manage a translation service here in Wales. We did a lot of work for the local Education Authority and had some horrendous examples of written English from some (often senior) Education officers. One test of good/bad English is the ease with which it translates. I had one translator return a piece of work to me incomplete; she was keeping her head above water until she got to the directive to school cooks that pricing for chips (french fries) would be held in abeyance "due to the explosive potato situation". Turns out that the potato 'market' was in a state of flux. But we had a cartoon of a potato with a lit fuse on the bulletin board for weeks thereafter...

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: gnu
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 06:47 PM

I will try and do that.

What? Makes my skin crawl.

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 06:53 PM

"Jungle.com, for its reply when asked if it sold blank CDs: "We are currently in the process of consolidating our product range to ensure that the products that we stock are indicative of our brand aspirations. As part of our range consolidation we have also decided to revisit our supplier list and employ a more intelligent system for stock acquisition. As a result of the above certain product lines are now unavailable through jungle.com, whilst potentially remaining available from more mainstream suppliers."

(That's a no, then?)

one of the winners of a past Golden Bull award

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 10:15 PM

Child to father at bedtime...

"Daddy, why did you bring that book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?"


.........................................................................

and one of my favorites: a passage from Kierkegaard's "Fear & Trembling", with commentary.


This paradox does not permit of mediation, for it is founded precisely upon the fact that the individual is only the individual. As soon as this individual [who is aware of a direct command from God] wishes to express his absolute duty in [terms of] the universal [i.e. the ethical, and] is sure of his duty in that [i.e. the universal or ethical precept], he recognizes that he is in temptation [i.e. a trial of faith], and, if in fact he resists [the direct indication of God's will], he ends by not fulfilling the absolute duty so called [i.e. what here has been called the absolute duty]; and, if he doesn't do this, [i.e. doesn't put up a resistance to the direct intimation of God's will], he sins, even though realiter his deed were that which it was his absolute duty to do.*

      *The translator has ventured to render this muddy sentence very liberally (though he has bracketed his explanatory additions), in order to bring out the meaning this sentence must have if it is to express the anguishing paradox of a "teleological suspension of the ethical." This is the meaning Niels Thulstrup gets out of it, and he tells me that this is the translation of Emanuel Hirsch. As S.K.'s sentence stands, without explanatory additions, it reminds me of a rigmarole l have often recited to the mystification of my hearers: "If a man were to signify, which he were not, if he had the power, which being denied him, he were to endeavor anyhow–merely because he don't, would you?" Much as I love Kierkegaard, I sometimes hate him for keeping me awake at night. Only between sleeping and waking am I able to unravel some of his most complicated sentences.

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Rowan
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 10:42 PM

There's a whole book of them in Don Watson's "Death sentence", in which he castigates "management-speak". Don Watson wants, as his epitaph "He used verbs."

CHeers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Rowan
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 05:55 PM

And if you wish to engage in fighting the good fight for clear English, you could do worse than visit "Fight the Bull - Why Business People Speak Like Idiots"
The origins of this site may be inferred (by the cynical) at "Bullfighter | Deloitte is no longer affiliated with Bullfighter - Deloitte & Touche"
A friend of mine managed to convince all the managers in the mining company that employed him to have it installed as a plugin for Word on their computers, with a logo at the bottom of documents that had been "passed".

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: s&r
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 06:32 PM

I remember learning this on the school bus

"It is an offence to avoid payment of the fare. Or to alight or to attempt to alight without paying the fare and with intent to avoid payment"

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 06:39 PM

Regrettably, the "Plain English" campaign often succeeds in changing precise expression into unclear hambagspeak, or in changing the meaning of the original to a substantial extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 08:06 PM

Maybe there's something wrong with me, but I found the Lloyds Pharmacy example, in the Golden Bull awards, to be perfectly understandable.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 05:13 AM

If you don't get up front, you'll be left right behind!

~~~~~~~~~~~

A Charisma Scare Roll

Go dressed team marriage end dull meant
Lit north ink cutest May
Forge eases cry star say fiord
West boor non crisp mistake,
Two safe assault from say tons spar
Win whee wore gonifs tray;
Owe, tide ink's off come fort enjoy, come fort enjoy,
Owe tye eye dink's off come fort enjoy.


An Udder Charisma Scare Roll

Oak gum ball if facefull, choy fall ant dry infant;
Gum ball ease it is sins off heavy nabob.
Gum band a door imp, barn off kinky faint shells.
Oak omelet acid Durham, oak omelet acid Durham,
Oak gum lettuce at Durhammm, cry, I still hoard.


And a harp pine gnu weir two ewe wall.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 06:44 AM

The following IS clear which is why I think I like it!

I thought I'd just pop it in for anybody who hasn't seen it before and hope that people still "talk" to me afterwards!

THE RULES
The female always makes The Rules.
The Rules are subject to change without prior notification.
No male can possibly know all The Rules.
If the female suspects the male knows all The Rules, she must immediately change some or all of The Rules.
The female is never wrong.
If the female is wrong, it is due to a misunderstanding which was a direct result of something the male did or said wrong.
The male must apologise immediately for causing said misunderstanding.
The female may change her mind at any time.
The male must never change his mind without the express written consent of the female.
The female has every right to be angry or upset at any time.
The male must remain calm at all times unless the female wants him to be angry and/or upset.
The female must, under no circumstances, let the male know whether or not she wants him to be angry and/or upset.
The male is expected to mind read at all times.
If the female has PMT all The Rules are null and void.
The female is ready when she is ready.
The male must be ready at all times.
Any attempt to document The Rules could result in bodily harm.
The male who doesn't abide by The Rules can't take the heat, lacks backbone and is a wimp.

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 12:30 PM

Hmmmmm. Sounds good to me. Except for 'PMT'- what is that? Must have been a male who posted it.

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 12:33 PM

"Pet Monster (in) Training"?

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Rowan
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 05:59 PM

And Don Watson followed up with a second book; "A dictionary of weasel words"; also worth a look for people interested in the machinations to force Newspeak into general use.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 11:39 AM

eanjay - that was on the wall in my dad's old embassy office in Abidjan. It was about working for the gubmint but the francophones who could read English got a big kick out of it too...

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 12:02 PM

I knew it went back a bit but ......

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 12:03 PM

It's good to know the history of these sayings.

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 12:05 PM

Anyone feel like ME about police/military spokesman phrasing?

"At this point in time, the intoxicated individual exited the vehicle."

why not, "Then the drunk got out of the car."?

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: topical tom
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:10 AM

There are certain things up with which I will not put.

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: David C. Carter
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 12:50 PM

"When the going gets tough,the tough get going."

Does this mean they've decided to leg it!

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: bubblyrat
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 03:35 AM

British Royal Navy signals, on the other hand,have always been short, unambiguous, and very much to the point, sometimes with humourous consequences-----During the Second World War, for example,there arose somewhat of a crisis regarding the supply and availability of the cloth known as Blue Serge, which was much used for Naval uniforms, both for males, and the "Wrens" ( Womens Royal Naval Service.) At some point, during this crisis, a signal was sent in order to establish a priority for officers' uniforms, which read--

Wrens Skirts Are To Be Held Up Until The Needs Of Officers Have Been Satisfied ....!!

Really !

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 01:50 AM

Early suffragette banner ' Up with skirts, down with trousers!

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: HuwG
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 04:37 PM

Naval signals often sacrificed absolute clarity for brevity. This could lead to corrections such as "Re my last. Please insert washer between Admiral's and woman".

Other famous (infamous?) signals included "The confidential book officer is to report to me for destruction."

Ship's names were usually transmitted without specific identification as such. Hence, "SOS Maid of Cork sinking", and "Have just arrested Jesus of Nazareth for using illegally sized nets".

Jack Broome (the escort commander on the notorious PQ17 convoy) wrote several anthologies of humourous RN signals.

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 07:48 AM

when all men (and women) speak the same language (USA take note) then plain English will be plain to all. Till then consider the sign we now use at roadworks with traffic lights.

"When red light shows wait here" has replaced :

"Wait while red light shows" because :

OOP north (Lancs Yorks) "while" means "until" to many people. But not to Londoners who order/purchase the signs.

Je ne parle plus Yokshire.

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 08:01 AM

Je ne parle plus Yokshire.

Well, I've only just grasped it and I've lived here for years!

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Rowan
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 01:22 AM

I never knew the French had Yoks for hire.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 08:47 AM

Have you seen this website, they offer some very good advice,

plain english campaign website

There is also a similar group of people who work for 'clear Welsh' too - or Cymraeg Clir

Cymraeg Clir

both excellent!

But the best way to come across clearly is to write for your target audience and get the writing style correct!

EWIS

Subject: RE: BS: Clear English
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 07:59 PM

Mr Red - good story, but not actually true that "wait while red light shows" was used....

Kitty