BS: Technological Dead-ends

Subject: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 04:26 PM

Hey, remember when "Drip-Dry" was the cutting edge for washable men's wear?
Or the "Self-winding Watch"? Now that was an idea that seemed to promise an end to old-fashioned winders and batteries! I remember a comedian who had a line that his uncle had been such an active man that it took five years for his self-winding watch to stop after he died.
The demise of the belt was prematurely announced with the "Sansa-belt Slacks."
Any others?

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 04:30 PM

8-track? BetaMax?

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 04:43 PM

the 40 hour workweek?

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 04:44 PM

And how about the FAX machine? Talk about something that caught fire to the point that it was necessary to have one to do business. Now, I use my FAX about once every two months.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: freightdawg
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 05:00 PM

What about the computer?

When I was in high school (shortly after the crust of the earth cooled down enough for habitation) we were told that "in just a few years" we would be living in a paperless society.

Even now every transaction that is completed on-line has the attached advice..."be sure you print this page for verification."

I still love the feel of my fountain pen as it glides smoothly over real, genuine paper. And, no power outages to contend with!

Freightdawg the ancient.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: bobad
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 05:05 PM

I inherited one of those "Self-winding Watches" from my father, it is an Omega Automatic, a very fine watch, my wife wears it daily and it keeps on ticking after about 35 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: pdq
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 05:18 PM

cryogenics

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: bobad
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 05:30 PM

The Flying Car

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 05:31 PM

The flying cars that were predicted in the 50's as "coming soon" for Every-man's garage were a soap-bubble dream; the ramp-up of energy prices and the relatively slow development in private aviation infrastructure left the field behind. Although there will be car-planes available in a couple of years (and have been in various forms in the past) they will not be viable investments for the average family to maintain, as cars are (or at least were until recently).

A

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 06:13 PM

How about the car-boats? I remember seeing a few puttering about with propellers sticking out under the bumpers long ago, but never saw one hit the lake.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 06:27 PM

I remember CDs first advertised as indestructable and always playable.

I even remember 'Tomorrow's World' (BBC technogeek programme introducing science to people waiting for 'Top of the Pops' to start) driving a tractor over it and it played perfectly.

Now we have several that are unplayable because someone accidentally let a speck of dust get onto them.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 06:27 PM

When I was in high school (shortly after the crust of the earth cooled down enough for habitation) we were told that "in just a few years" we would be living in a paperless society.

Snifflin' young puppies ....

When I was in my third year of COLLEGE the dean of the electrical engineering department visited our class (of mostly MEs) to explain that transistors¹ probably would never be able to replace vacuum tubes in a workable computer², and building a computer that consumed less than a few KILOWATTS was a pipe dream.

¹ of the kind then known

² similar to ENIAC(?)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 06:50 PM

The first computer I ever worked with (and I was 3 years out of college at the time) ran on vacuum tubes and was programmed with a roll of one-inch-wide paper tape with holes punched into it. The first thing we did each morning was to bang it underneath with a baseball bat to shake the condensation loose. I remember a geek friend of mine saying a few years later, "you know, it is theoretically possible to make a calculator the size of a pack of cigarettes".

How about the paperless ballot?

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 07:24 PM

My Dad had a Cadillac with state-of-the-art automatic dimmer switch for the headlights. I remember an entire trip to Florida, right after he bought the car, when he futzed with this thing for hours. It would alternately darken the lights when there wasn't a car in 10 miles,and then blind oncoming drivers with a sudden burst of brightness when they least expected it.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 07:27 PM

And here's a prediction :

On-Demand movie rentals through cable and satellite service will put an end to Movie Rental stores in less than 5 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 07:34 PM

The self-winding watch is still with us and will cost you several hundred dollars.

Betamax lost out to VHS, even though Betamax was a superior product.

8-tracks were NOT superior and I'm glad they're dead, those rascals them.

On-demand movies will obviously put an end to video rental stores -- it's already happening. The Netflix model will work for a while, but will eventually lose out to MP3 or something similar.

Here's one: the recording industry, as it is currently structured, will pass out of existence within 10 years max. One possible replacement is websites that function like iPod sites do: sell the user a song and let the user pick and choose; a percentage of each download would go to the artist.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: bobad
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 07:35 PM

Automatic push button transmission - I once had a 1950's Dodge Fargo pickup truck with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 08:10 PM

Great one, bobad! I, too, had a Chrysler Biscayne, about 1960, that had the pushbutton tranny.

Curb feelers?

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 08:38 PM

Leather prophylactics.
Steam automobiles.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 08:39 PM

Citizens Band Radio

Pressure Cookers

Electric tin openers and carving knives

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 09:14 PM

Anybody remember the rollagon? or Peltier Effect cooling?

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 10:12 PM

Dodge Dart, pushbutton tranny. Sliding lever for Park. Dunno what year-- I learned to drive on it (thanks Mom) and paid no attention to year. Car lasted till the rust finally et through the huge contact-paper flowers my mom covered the rust up with. It was in the late 60's.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 10:13 PM

CB is still with us -- you can get the whole setup, and it's still used by truckers and others.

How about:

Matchlock firearms
Wheel lock firearms
Ducking stools
Checking accounts
Banjos
Wankel engine
Internal combustion engine
Wet-plate photography
Cold fusion
Antibiotics

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 10:13 PM

Wasn't the rollagon a kind of a rolling octagon thing that was purported to cure the flu?

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 10:32 PM

Church-keys.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: number 6
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 10:45 PM

You still need them for Heinekens Amos.

anyone remember the Amphicar

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 10:52 PM

Balance of Terror, Mutual Assured Destruction and the hardware that went with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 10:55 PM

Slings
Trebuchets
Orangers

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 11:15 PM

On-Demand movie rentals through cable and satellite service will put an end to Movie Rental stores in less than 5 years.

Correction:

On-demand movie rentals through cable and satellite service will put AN END TO OUR USE OF THE INTERNET IN LESS THAN TWO YEARS if current "premium service" privatization efforts succeed.

(IMO)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 11:32 PM

Just because something is obsolete doesn't mean it's a dead-end. Most obsolete items are necessary steps in the evolution of their succesors. A true dead-end has no successor.

"Yankee" screwdrivers are pretty much a dead-end. They've been replaced in almost everyone's toolbox by rechargable portable drills with screwdriving bits. Both tools perform the same job, but they use entirely different technologies.   

The dedicated word-processing machine is not a dead end. It's obsolete, but it has evolved into the word-processing software we all have on our computers today.

And the eight-track tape wasn't really a dead-end, just a wrong turn.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 03:16 AM

On-demand movie rentals through cable and satellite service will put AN END TO OUR USE OF THE INTERNET IN LESS THAN TWO YEARS if current "premium service" privatization efforts succeed.
Holy schneikies sez I!

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 03:34 AM

Peltier Effect cooling is used on some high power high end CPUs to help get the heat out of the chip and into the water cooling system.

Hey, old computers had water cooling systems - some buildings were designed with a space for the cooling fountain...

And I didn't mind 8 track tapes - they had their uses for endless background sounds... used one for that... still got the recorder, now where can you get tapes? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 04:20 AM

Peltier effect "refrigerators" are readily available and are used by a fair number of long-haul truckers to keep their lunch fresh. (Lots of people buy them, but the ones who use one for more than a couple of trips usually add a lump of dry ice to help the reefer out a little.)

Of course they mostly do have the advantage of having a couple of ~300A generators to run their frivolous little accessories too.

The "coolers" are available for "recreational use," but you just about need a "UTE class" truck to carry the batteries to run one for more than a couple of hours. Efficiency has NOT been too significantly improved since the first generation devices, although some of the current ones are a little bit better than the old penny on ternplate stacks we used to build in the hobby shop.

Peltier CPU coolers are availableadvertised, but I haven't seen much indication that people are buying them in any quantity. BIG FANS, BIG FINS, and lots of thermal goop seem more in favor.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 04:29 AM

Lonesom EJ:

Take a look at the recent thread BS: Internet Freedom Under Fire for the prognostication on the internet.

I linked to my "explanation" but you can scroll back to the rest of the thread from there.

Of course it's just one person's guesstimate.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 07:25 AM

DATs and ADAT machines in recording studios.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 08:59 AM

Civilization (such as it is) as we know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Chip2447
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 11:40 AM

Amphibious vehicles haven't become a technological dead end, perhaps just an oddity;

carboats

Chip

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 11:52 AM

Both the Quadski and the Humdinga look pretty cool on Chip's site. I like the picture of the Humdinga getting ready to go over the falls.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 12:37 PM

Leather Prophylactics George ?!?!?!?! YGTBKM.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 01:30 PM

Peltier, peltschmear- years ago I gave my dad a canvas water bag that hung outside his truck when he was in the fields and it kept his water almost chilled.

How about milking stools? Three legs and low to the floor.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 02:56 PM

Maybe not too enjoyable, GUEST Neil, but bloody effective.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: john f weldon
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 04:07 PM

I'm looking at my once-treasured Dat machine, which cost a bundle. Sigh.
I have a large box filled with used SCSI cables, for sale cheap.
Syquest drive anyone?

But a 5-string banjo is forever!

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rog Peek
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 04:18 PM

Artbrooks
There is nothing 'dead-end' about the 8 track player in my car, over 30 years, still works as well as it did then, and has NEVER chewed a tape or skipped a track!

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:03 PM

Buy any new tapes lately, Rog?

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rog Peek
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:08 PM

No artbrooks, but I've got a recorder, and tapes cost nothing, very generously donate them when they are having a clear-out..

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:45 PM

When digital clocks and watches came out, I figured it would mean the demise of analog clocks and watches, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Most people seem to prefer the old-fashioned dial-face with hands.

I have used a digital watch for years, and I love it, mainly for the additional functions: date, alarm, and timer, which I use frequently. It has a black plastic case and cost less than $25. The strap is not the one that came with it originally; mine is nylon fabric with a Velcro closure; the perfect timepiece in my estimation. I can't imagine wanting anything better. Oh, it might be nice to have one that would measure my heart rate, or blood pressure, or give me my exact location by GPS, or tell me how far I have walked today, but I can live without those functions.

Yet, pick up any copy of, say, The New Yorker magazine, or the Wall Street Journal, and you will see dozens of ads for expensive watches, in the hundreds or thousands of dollars. Many of them don't have as many functions as mine does, and I doubt that they can do anything more accurately or conveniently than mine does. So why do they exist? I suppose because people who buy them want fancy jewelry more than they want functionality.

And, curiously, all of those expensive watches are analog, not digital. Why? Hasn't anyone figured out a way to make a digital watch look like jewelry? Not that I would want one…

* * *
I think dirigibles were a technological dead-end.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 07:00 PM

I remember the "plane-sail" (I think) on Tomorrow's World. It was an array of four parallel vertical wings to replace the sail of a boat. It could be controlled by a wheel and a couple of levers while you sat in an armchair in the cabin!

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: john f weldon
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 07:21 PM

Analog watches are not just a dead end. They are evil. No one uses a worthless but pricey analog watch unless they are trying to impress the world that they care NOT about time, but the power to ignore time, and that they have vast supplies of money to waste, due to their wealth and power.

Analog watches are the modern equivalent of bound feet.

Thorstein Veblen coined the term "conspicuous waste". His epic work "The Theory of the Leisure Class" (written in 1899 (!)) would appeal to many Mudcatters; his warnings are more relevant than ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 07:31 PM

But have you noticed how many people in dances get clockwise wrong since the digital watch came in?

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: john f weldon
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 07:39 PM

I was, of course, reponding to Jim Dixon's post. I still have my granpa's old pocket watch, and a five-yr old windup pocket watch that cost about 10 bucks. Neither work.

It's the 5000 dollar-plus pieces of junk still being made and sold that make me angry.

It's perfectly possible to create a watch that looks analog and has digital works for a small cost; I haven't seen one lately.

Clockwork was a miracle in its day. It's dead now, and should be buried.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: john f weldon
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 07:44 PM

I have to add here my favourite "bad idea" of recent memory. Edward Land was a genius, and justly made millions from his Polaroid cameras. But he pushed the idea too far, and was producing a polaroid movie camera. You could take home movies (no sound), and they would develop and be playable in mere minutes.   After running them through a chemical bath. And they were only a few minutes long. And cost a lot.   It came out around the time of the first video cameras.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Bert
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 08:59 PM

The slide rule, although it is much faster than a calculator for many applications.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: bobad
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 09:18 PM

The bustle.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: john f weldon
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 09:38 PM

Ah the bustle. Let's hope the boob-job also meets a speedy end!

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 09:54 PM

Re Jim Dixon's "analog watches;"

It is literally impossible to buy a CHEAP digital watch at the mass market outlets today, unless one wants a three-pound glob of "bling" that supposedly implies to your friends that it must be seen at 30 fathoms in dim light during your regular workday.

(I've also noted that nearly everything available has a "wrist band" that I'd have to wear on my ankle - or maybe around my knee - if I expected it to stay in one place, but that's another issue.)

Fortunately or unfortunately, the "analog display" watches that are available are not analog watches. They use the same digital chips as one with a digital display, but have an analog display. While there may be a few "mechanical" ones out there somewhere, all that I've seen require the same battery and use the same "electronics" as the digital ones. Only the "face" has been changed.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: john f weldon
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 10:24 PM

Impossible to buy a cheap digital watch? I got one at the drug-store for 2 bucks that works fine. Has a cute cartoon character on the front.

There are lots of clock-work analog watches for sale but they cost big bucks. Minimum thousands of dollars.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 11:56 PM

How does $8.45 strike you as a decent price for a watch?
Click here.
No cute cartoon characters, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 11:57 PM

Well, I like the esthetics of a traditional dial-faced watch myself, and I don't need an array of digital functions to make my life even more interesting.

How about the beeper? Went out the same door the cell phone came in.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Greg B
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 12:01 AM

Ah, yes. The "Aero-car"

A bad airplane.

A worse car.

At least it wasn't the other way 'round.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 03:44 AM

I remember canvas water bags. hard to find, but still the most practical thing in the Aussie Outback.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 04:35 AM

Mostly in my area we used a gallon glass "cider jug" with burlap wrapped and stitched on. You could wet down the burlap and it would cool the water, but if you were gonna be out all day you'd take two jugs. Wet down the first one for the morning, and use the last cup or so from it to wet down the second one for the afternoon. That way you didn't waste water keeping all the water cool all day.

'Course they are a little bit lumpy to pack around if you're walkin' or ridin' the mule, but on the tractor, in the pick'emup truck or on the combine there's plenty of room for one.

I think I still have at least one somewhere around the house, but I did find that it wasn't too good for coolin' the beer, so haven't used it in a while.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:26 AM

"Clockwork was a miracle in its day. It's dead now, and should be buried"

Well, for watches perhaps so..but the clockwork radio and torch has been a massive hit in Africa and developing world countries.

A friend of mine has one too..very useful, and you get a good power-to-wind ratio!!
D

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: john f weldon
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 07:47 AM

If by clockwork, you mean a simple wind-up spring, I agree. If you mean an elaborate device that requires dozens of tiny spinning wheels on diamond hubs, thus costing thousands, when more accurate digital time-keeping chips are available for pennies, the clockwork is simply a waste of human time and money.
Like the sedan chair.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:49 AM

I use a watch with an analogue face 'cos that way I can tell the time without putting on my specs to read it. A digital display big enough for me to read is just too big for my wrist, so there!

Clockwork oranges are good too!

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:33 AM

You can also use an analog watch face as a compass.

And don't for a minute think a compass is an example! GPS is alright as far as it goes, but when you run out of batteries it's just extra weight.

Consider, too, the long slow "death" of the book. Consider the implications of reading an e-book which soaking in a nice hot tub...and dropping it. Consider being out camping, e-book in hand, and running out of toilet paper...or needing tinder to light a fire. (I am, of course, being facetious here. But books -- words printed on paper -- will be around long, long after you and I are dust.)

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:56 AM

laser fusion power generators.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: john f weldon
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 12:26 PM

Books are still good, and will be for for a long time. If taken care of the last longer than some of the modern media. Burned CD - 10 years ave. Burned DVD - 5 yrs average.
Dead Sea Scrolls? 2000+ years?

Analog watches with digital innards, fine.
Old timex wind-ups (are any still working?) for the terminally future-challenged.
Rolexes for the obscenely rich & stupid.
Fake Rolexes for the gullible.
You know what you can use for a compass? A compass! They're still cheap!

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 12:32 PM

Yup. I have several compasses: map, lensatic, pin-on. And I know how to use 'em, with and without a map, too. (I can also find direction by various other, non-compass, methods. Always handy to know, because compasses can be broken.)

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: john f weldon
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 01:10 PM

I hope the human brain will be around for a while. It's nice to keep in mind some idea of the phase of the moon, position of the stars, a few general tricks that can keep you "located". Shadows! Triangulation! Some of that Boy Scout stuff still comes in handy!

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 01:48 PM

Know how to estimate the width of a river if you only know the length of your pace (and you can't walk on water)?

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: john f weldon
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 03:45 PM

Reminds me of the old test question; how do you tell the height of a building using a barometer?

Answer: Drop the barometer from the top and count off seconds till you hear the crash...

Uh... ...If I see a tree on the other side and walk along side till the tree seems about a 45 degree angle?

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 04:00 PM

I recall with pleasure that Timex advert whwere they used to tie the Timex watch to a horse's hoof, and send it over the jumps, and then they directed a hose pipe on it to wash off the mud, andsure enough the the Timex was still there tied to that very same horse's hoof.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Hollowfox
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 04:44 PM

Repaire m'friend, I know folks who build these. Also ballistas. Luckily, they all keep their day jobs to support such hobbies.


Slings
Trebuchets
Orangers (Isn't that onagers?)

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: john f weldon
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:05 PM

In my youth... ...in the very town I still live in... ...the breadman and the milkman came by horse and cart! That was old technology! Alas, the streets were filled with horseshit, and the big laugh was if the horse pooped right under your bedroom window at 5 am. A sweet smell in the country, but that close, it could wake the dead!

(no one calls me ramblin john)

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:32 PM

The first computer I ever worked with (and I was 3 years out of college at the time) ran on vacuum tubes and was programmed with a roll of one-inch-wide paper tape with holes punched into it. The first thing we did each morning was to bang it underneath with a baseball bat to shake the condensation loose.

This is technically referred to as "percussive maintenance".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:33 PM

Stand on the bank of the stream and pull down the brim of your hat (or use your hand as an eyeshade) until it "touchs" the other shore. Now carefully turn and note where the "shoreline" would be on your side of the stream. Mark it in your mind (or have a friend physically do so) and pace off from where you are standing to the "shoreline" mark. It's pretty accurate, within reason of course.

Yes, I meant onagers. Also ballistae. All sorts of things. (An oranger was a medieval weapon that flung rotten oranges at the enemy.)

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rowan
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 01:08 AM

Bert, before they demolished our computer lab, its wall had a slide rule mounted on the wall behind a 'break glass' panel under a sign that said "In case of power failure, break glass." But, you're right; the little $5 solar powered calculators have generally put slide rules out of business, along with tables of logarithms, sines, cosines and tangents.

And Foolestroup is right; as a caller I had to explain "clockwise" and its antonym to younger audiences. Having been given a digital-display watch I was able to compare the distances at which I could correctly discern time when viewing both it and an analogue display; the analogue won by a factor of at least three. I seem to recall a story about how an employee in a Swiss watch factory invented the digital watch and couldn't interest his employers; "It will never catch on!" is the translation of their apparent response. So he sold the idea to Casio, I'm told.

And, as for expensive Swiss watches being regarded as "certified chronometers", what a load of garbage! I was given one of those once and took it to Mawson where I was able to compare it with a caesium standard (we had the Pageos program with us for the winter) for 8 months or so; it's variability from week to week was appallingly huge.

Steam cars and Tesla turbines seem to have been dead ends though.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 01:21 AM

"how do you tell the height of a building using a barometer?"

The best answer I have seen is:

Find the building watchman/repair man. Give him the barometer if he will tell you the height of the building.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 01:37 AM

One of the first "digital drive" watches used a tuning fork for its frequency reference. My recollection is that most of them had an analog face, but the timing was done by an oscillator PLL locked onto the fork.

Accuracy was excellent, and they were fairly nominal in cost when compared to "clockwork" timekeepers with "similarly superior" accuracy. The airplane guys where I was working at the time immediatel rushed to provide one for each of their test pilots. They soon found, however, that when struck - or struck against something - in one particular axis/orientation, the fork bent extremely easily and the watches stopped, or at least stopped being as accurate as the average sundial.

The particular direction required to destroy the timepiece was peculiarly coincident with the angle at which a pilot's wrist quite frequently bumped into center console throttle/pitch/mixture knobs, and they lost at least a half dozen of these fine timepieces within a couple of months of handing the first ones out.

They had a sort of funny name, like "Accutron" or something similar. The watches were marketed for some time, and were reasonably durable for most "civilians" one supposes; but they were not used much by our pilots after the first couple of rounds of mass replacements.

They're probably valuable "collectors' items" now, although I'm sure someone here will tell me they're still using one that they bought on ebay last month.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 03:24 AM

Polaroid film.

Referring back to JohnInKansas' post: I heard a lecture while at University from an IBM guru talking about the limits of minaturisation in computers and how we could not get computers much smaller than they were in the sixties because you couldn't make the rings from core memory much smaller ...

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 05:15 AM

Yup. I have several compasses ...

Beam compasses, bow compasses, pen compasses, and some really sexy "french curves" ...

But for "projects" I'll often just grab a bean can and run a pencil around the bottom of it - sometimes with a selected one of my graded set of washers to "stand off" to a more convenient radius.

I do seem to have misplaced my "spline ducks" though.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 09:40 AM

Qvack!

there's a Swedish one for you John....

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 09:37 PM

On the other hand technology can sometimes turn up surprises - for example the rickshaws you now run into in London streets(sometimes literally).

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 12:51 AM

McGrath listed the electric can-opener and the carving knife. I bought an electric can opener when my wrists were hurting from turning over bolts of fabric on the job. (It hurt to open a can.)

I use an electric knife to cut up ham when we cook free lunch for 200 at a local church. Again, it's easier on the hands.

A lot of dead ends are minor:

lipstick that you put on and lick to spread it
shampoo that had one green portion and one blue until you shook it
pop beads
hula hoops

Bye for now. I'm off for a week starting tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 06:22 AM

Although they're not the popular Xmas/wedding gift they were for a while, electric knives are still very much around. One of the most prominent places where they turn up for sale is in the sporting goods stores or sports departments at gen merch places.

The ones there are mostly battery powered. There's the "electric fillet knife" so that you can use them out there in the boat to get that fish cleaned and on ice and don't have to hurry back to the dock. A larger version is for field dressing your "big game" right on the tailgate of your pickup truck (or to cut it up into pieces small enough that you can lift them to put them in the truck - I suppose(?)).

Now the samples of "electric scissors" (for home/hobby use) that I've seen are an idea that hasn't died yet - but probably should ...

John

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: john f weldon
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 06:56 AM

The old version of alka-seltzer came in two packages of powder. You stirred one pack into each of two glasses and then pour one glass into the other to make it fizz. It really went off like a bomb. My grandpa used to think it funny to get someone to drink one glass, then the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 07:34 AM

DIVX

Laser Discs - I loved those. My husband and I have a HUGE collection, mostly gifts from Joh Woo when he worked with him. We sold off some of the Criterion ones in 2000 during the Actors/Writers Strike when he was briefly laid off but we're reluctant to get rid of most of them. We keep our Disc player up and running because DVDs really cannot compare in terms of clarity and qaulity of picture. I wish we hadnt sold our copy of The Innocents. I had a question about that song the little girl sings and would have liked to go back and go thru it slowly.


DVDs - BluRay or other such tech will soon replace it as a format.

Phenylpropanolamine
The former active ingredient in Alka Seltzer Cold forumla and Appetite suppressents such as Dexatrim. A study suggested it might cause strokes if consumed in large amounts by bulemic teenagers or some such and so it was removed from the market despite being a very effective cold medicine. It's still available in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Bert
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 02:05 PM

An electric carving knife is great for cutting batts of fibreglass insulation.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 04:28 PM

JiK's collection of compasses sounds a bit like mine, and "Accutron" was the name of the tuning fork watch John described. The "chronometer" I castigated had a purely mechanical movement and predated the Accutrons.

Pageant (the a cappella group I sang with in Oz) had a member who gave us our reference pitch on her descant recorder but Rumbylowe (from Brisbane) had Martin Gallagher's watch. Martin had an Accutron and it was amusing to watch Rumbylowe get their reference pitch on stage. The Accutron gave a barely audible sound which was a few cents above D and certainly good enough to use; Martin would put his wrist up to his ear, hum the note and they'd all be into it. Great stuff!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 07:00 PM

Actually, hula hoops are quite alive and are being used for exercise classes and other things.

I wear a Seiko watch which is a chronograph -- it has an "elapsed time"   ring, a stopwatch accurate to one-one hundredth of a second, an alarm function, and a second clock face. It also supplies the date, but not the day or month or year, so I only know that today is the 4 of sometime.

I also have a half-dozen slide rules; I'm collecting varies items to make a wall box like the one described and I already have a GENUINE IBM card!

(I also have a copy of the CRC Handbook on my desk at work for quick reference. "Stand back! I've got a table of cosines here and I know how to use it!")

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 09:20 PM

Rapaire -

You probably mean the CRC Standard Mathematical Tables when you refer to the CRC Handbook. I have a copy and actually have used it fairly recently. I also have two different editions of Burrington's (very similar to the CRC Math Tables, for those not familiar) which contains a few "integral equivalents" not found in the CRC Math Tables.

The CRC Math tables, however, are only one section - extracted and published separately - from the Rubber Manual, of which I also have one complete copy.

For the uninitiated, the "Rubber Manual" is the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, so-called because it's compiled by the "Chemical Rubber Corporation" (CRC). My 41st edition (1959) is a 3,472 page collection of still (marginally?) useful data, but it goes back to ca. 1914 in origins, and so far as I know is still occasionally updated and published. Mine is missing the physical constants on a few dozen elements discovered since publication, but most of the ones missing are too expensive to be used for home projects, so I don't find their absence too much of a limitation.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 09:38 PM

Actually, I have both the Math Tables and the Statistical Tables handbooks. And they are no more than 3 years old, although the data contained might be (pi, for instance, only gets longer and after the first seventy-five or so decimal places it becomes a bit unwieldy).

They're still available and can be purchased.

I also own a book on how to use a slide rule. Again, for most projects two decimal places is enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 10:11 PM

John, you and Rapaire have gazumped me! I can't rake up my Kaye & Laby (four-figure) or Castle (5-figure) maths tables; all I can muster is a Merck Index, 12th Ed., which has no maths tables in it at all. I feel somewhat ... inadequate in such company.

But my Seiko (Sports 100, at 1" across it's the smallest waterprrof watch I could find in 1980) is in my hip pocket, sans strap, and quite accurate enough for my current purposes. It has a digital panel that is supposed to do everything except make coffee but the analogue display suits me fine.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 02:23 AM

Rowan -

Citing a reference only two generations old hardly counts as a reminiscence!!! The Merck Index is well known, and I've consulted library copies a couple of times; but I've never had one since I figured out it wouldn't help my first wife's cooking.

I do have a half-dozen different editions of the Merck Diagnostic manuals, including the "reprint" of the first one - that came bundled with the "Centenial Edition" (17th), but these aren't really "dead end" things since they're all continuing series.

Among ones falling into obscurity, Rapaire may also remember "Jahnke and Emde" and/or "James and James" - both of which I also remember using a lot but haven't the foggiest idea of the "real titles."

*****Oops: retraction. I found my Funktionentafeln Mit Formeln Und Kurven, Eugene Jahnke and Fritz Emde, Stuttgart 1933, 2d ed 1938, Dover Reprint of 1938 edition 1959. - - - - A really handy little book - then.

Which gets to the obsolescence issue:

Remember when one had to understand the equations in order to solve them, instead of just letting the computers make guesses for you?

It's the understanding that's obsolete and in ill repute, I guess.

It once was said that "When you understand the question, the answer will be obvious." Now it's not necessary since digital approximations are accepted (almost) universally as "answers" without the need to even remember what the questions were. Douglas Adams was right!

John

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: skipy
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 05:19 AM

Peltier–Seebeck and Thomson effects
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: PMB
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 06:05 AM

Peltier-Seebeck is still in use- processor coolers in computers, and the cute little fan that sat on the stove of the narrowboat and blew the air about when it got warm, until someone banged into a lock and it fell off and broke.

But bubble memory, the steam tables (and log and trig tables for that matter), GTO thyristors, Strowger switches, Karnaugh maps, rub- on PCB transfers (2x and 4x size), A4 XY plotters, *FX graphics commands, the column mounted manual gearstick, Trafficators, starting handles, bus and milk tokens, Sparklets powered corkscrews, artificial cream makers, hand meat mincers, Redex, Bri-nylon, Liberty bodices, Jumping Jacks, tub washing machines with roller wringers, gas pokers....

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 08:57 AM

I still have a copy of a book with six figure log tables. Anyone got a book of logs with seven or more?

Last night I was reading a book called "Mathmatician's Delight" by W.W. Sawyer, published in 1943, which has about eight chapters on things he saw as fundamental for understanding practical mathematics - trigonometry, differential calculus and so on. One of the chapters was on logarithms.

I must stress this is not the sort of book I usually pick to while away an evening...

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 09:21 AM

I wish I could remember how to extract square and cube roots WITHOUT a book or calculator or computer. I was taught to do this in grade school, but have forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 10:46 AM

Square roots are pretty simple, but notation to illustrate would be tedious here. I always had to re-derive the method for cube roots every time I needed it, since I never used it enough to remember.

For square roots, it's basically using

(a+b)² = a²+2ab+b²

and using "pairs of digits" and just "thinking backwards."

And do we remember when your "hi fi" system garnered sneers and disrespectful comments if you didn't have at least 10 pounds of output transformers per watt? And 30W per channel was a monster.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 01:40 PM

If you ever need logarithm tables they are available on line - for example.

Lots of the stuff mentioned here are of course still available and used by some people, as and when they do the job best, it's just that the fashion for them which made them market leaders has moved on. Rather the same as happened to concertinas and banjos at the end of the 19th century.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Neighmond
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 02:35 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: john f weldon
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 07:47 AM

If by clockwork, you mean a simple wind-up spring, I agree. If you mean an elaborate device that requires dozens of tiny spinning wheels on diamond hubs, thus costing thousands, when more accurate digital time-keeping chips are available for pennies, the clockwork is simply a waste of human time and money.
Like the sedan chair."


My, my! Someone has been to the watchmaker's and didn't like it a'tall! Too bad you didn't ask them to explain the mechanics of the watch so you could at least have that right.

The average mechanical movement has only eight wheels, the hubs of which are steel, NOT diamond. The bearings are jeweled, but even then only five are usually jeweled, and jeweled with synthetic ruby or sapphire. Diamond is only used as end stones (four at the very most, 1mm or less across, )and even then sparingly. As of last fall, the value of an unset watch jewel averaged to $6.50; the rest is the labor to fit it.

As for "costing thousands" I can sell you all of the mechanical gents' watches you want with a jeweled lever movement for nowhere near a thousand. Hell-I can sell you a real nice pocket watch for pretty cheap too.

Finally, I wouldn't have a digital for any price. I can read my plain-Jane old Hamilton pocket watch across the room, and it's easy to work on, doesn't contribute any waste with dead batteries, and I sure as hell don't need anything more accurate than .2 sec/day which is its mean rate.

As for the Bulova Accutron, it was a transitive technology, a bridge between the mechanical timepiece and the modern day quartz-controlled watches.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Neighmond
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 02:59 PM

he last post was incomplete. Here is the whole thing.

"Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: john f weldon
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 07:47 AM

If by clockwork, you mean a simple wind-up spring, I agree. If you mean an elaborate device that requires dozens of tiny spinning wheels on diamond hubs, thus costing thousands, when more accurate digital time-keeping chips are available for pennies, the clockwork is simply a waste of human time and money.
Like the sedan chair."


My, my! Someone has been to the watchmaker's and didn't like it a'tall! Too bad you didn't ask them to explain the mechanics of the watch so you could at least have that right.

The average mechanical movement has only eight wheels, the hubs of which are steel, NOT diamond. The bearings are jeweled, but even then only five are usually jeweled, and jeweled with synthetic ruby or sapphire. Diamond is only used as end stones (four at the very most, 1mm or less across, )and even then sparingly. As of last fall, the value of an unset watch jewel averaged to $6.50; the rest is the labor to fit it.

As for "costing thousands" I can sell you all of the mechanical gents' watches you want with a jeweled lever movement for nowhere near a thousand. Hell-I can sell you a real nice pocket watch for pretty cheap too.

It wasn't too long ago that quartz watches had to be regulated for each wearer by trimming the capacitors, which was every bit a nuisance as adjusting the hairspring and balance wheel of a mechanical watch.

As for the Bulova Accutron, it was a transitive technology, a bridge between the mechanical timepiece and the modern day quartz-controlled watches. It was the second wave of timepieces where the escapement drove the gear train, instead of the other way 'round. The electrically impulsed balance wheel movements were the first, and Hamilton Watch Comany of Lancaster PA made them in the fifties. The Accutron used an IC and tuning fork to maintain a frequency, which was a vast improvement over the balance wheel rate wise, as well as having less moving parts. The real problem with the Accutrons was tuning forks and indexing wires/jewels/wheels wearing out or getting damaged.


Finally, I wouldn't have a digital for any price. I can read my plain-Jane old Hamilton pocket watch across the room, and it's easy to work on, doesn't contribute any waste with dead batteries, and I sure as hell don't need anything more accurate than .2 sec/day which is its mean rate.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rowan
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 04:38 PM

This thread demonstrates one of the lovely aspects of Mudcat. A forum grounded on music putatively from the folk, and here we are in the BS, below the line, detailing escapements, electronics, logarithms, differences between the Merck Index and the Merck Diagnostic Index and how one might define 'reminiscences'.

And then McGrath spoils it all by lumping concertinas into the category of "dead end". Sigh!

Now, if he'd said "Linhof 6x9 limited movement press cameras using 70mm film" instead, I'd have believed him. I own both but I only still use the concer.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 05:37 PM

Rowan -

The simple answer to "What is a technological dead end?" appears to be "Anything I've bought."

Computers are an obvious one, especially laptops. My "working perfectly" laptop that needed a memory upgrade to go to the next generation OS before it was a year old encountered "that memory chip is not made any more."

My digital camera uses the then (4 years ago) most popular memory card, which is now obsolete and replacements (or spares) unavailable.

About three months after I upgraded my camera to a brand new Canon A-1, partly because of the vast selection of available lenses, they announced a completely new and entirely incompatible line of lenses that I can't mount on mine, and mine won't mount on any of the new ones.

Within 30 days after I signed the mortgage on my camper, I visited the maker's website and found a big sign saying "MODEL DISCONTINUED, NO INFORMATION AVAILABLE" (and I've still got a years worth of payments left).

If I buy it, it will DISAPPEAR.

Especially if I like it.

(But I never bought a BetaMax.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 06:47 PM

"If I buy it, it will DISAPPEAR."

I hope you win the lottery, John, and if you do make sure to buy a 4x4. And I'm sure we could come up with a long list of other splendid purchases...

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rowan
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 01:15 AM

McGrath, one of the first vacation jobs I had as a uni student was with Tattersalls, the people who ran the original lotteries in Victoria, Oz. They transferred a barrel containing 150,000 "marbles" (they're actually wooden, as glass ones disintegrate and metal ones act as a ball mill) from Tasmania to Victoria and wanted to use the barrel (but only 100,000 marbles) in various lotteries. Victoria's gaming legislation required the Auditor General to inspect the contents of such barrels and ensure there was one, and only one, of every numbered marble.

So I, along with 11 other uni students and 12 Tatts ladies, sorted out all 150,000 marbles in consecutive order from 1 to 100,000. I can visualise, probably better than most, exactly how many chances you have of getting "the winning marble" and I've never entered a lottery (well, not that sort) since.

I'd wish John the chance that he purchased something that had his lifetime's duration of usefulness, but it sounds like he has an extraordinary collection of such things already, in addition to the ones that are technological dead ends. "Beam compasses" indeed! And he's probably got a bottle of pounce hidden away as well!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Grab
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 08:32 AM

GTO thyristors

Still in use, or were about 10 years back, and I see no reason why it'd be otherwise. The branch of Alstom I worked for used them as the switches for their high-voltage DC converters - for the uninitiated, think of the wall-wart for converting mains AC to DC and the inverter for converting your car battery DC to mains AC, and then scale the whole lot up to power-station size!

A4 XY plotters

You'll find quite a few electronics hobbyists making these from scratch, because they're better than printers, and you can't buy them now for less than a grand. I used to have an A3 one I got from a friend, but it stopped working and I never needed it enough to make it worth repairing. It went through three houses with me, but sadly I had to face facts and junk it when we moved to the fourth.

gas pokers

Hey, those are still around - two quid down the market, anywhere you care to look.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 09:25 AM

The Rolph Harris Stylophone
and the bigger equivalent
The Moog

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Grab
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 10:49 AM

And let's be controversial here. Some musical technological dead-ends...

* Woodwind instruments
* Brass instruments
* The violin, viola and cello
* The classical guitar
* Almost the steel-string guitar

Before people reach for big sticks and brickbats, let's define a technological dead-end. To my mind, a technological dead-end is a point where no further progress is possible. The items might still be around, but their design isn't improved on any further. Which gives a clue to where I'm going with this...

Classical musicians simply *won't* play instruments that don't look like the ones made by Stradivarius or Guarani or Torres, no matter how good they sound. Luthiers being ingenious folk, there will always be people who try something different, and you might even find locally-popular variations like Hardanger fiddles, but they never make it into mainstream acceptance. This halts the technology at an arbitrary dead-end.

Steel-string guitars are a bit better off, but even with those there's a serious dead-end to worry about, namely CF Martin and co having set the "accepted" shape of a steel-string guitar. If it doesn't look like a "traditional" steel-string guitar, chances are that it won't sell as well. Luckily there are more steel-string guitarists prepared to favour their ears over their preconceptions, but still most steel-string guitars are using the same Martin construction as 70+ years ago.

And for woodwind and brass, there's only so many configurations of tube and valve which produce different tones or different operating methods, and nothing has changed majorly since Adolphe Sax.

So what *is* still in active development? ("Active" as in "new instruments adopted by the mainstream in the last 50 years", to define terms.) Well, acoustically the mandolin family is the only stringed-instrument group that's had any new types of instruments for years. Double-basses (uniquely amongst the violin family) have some adaptation going on to tailor them for different requirements, mainly I think because everyone acknowledges that a double-bass has big design flaws ("big" being one of those design flaws!). Electrics obviously, although even there you've mainly got a choice of single-coil or humbucker and all amps are trying to sound like a valve amp - not that these are bad sounds, but there are other sounds out there. And after that we're looking at pure-electronic music - synths and the like. Sure, there *are* different designs around for various instruments, but none that show any real prospect of dislodging the status quo.

The one major innovation in all of this is production-line assembly, which has radically reduced the cost and improved the quality of almost all instruments. Still and all, that's just automating a manual process - the end result isn't any different except in having better quality control.

I'm not saying that the "Golden Age" instruments (and it's very telling that Martin actually do call their instruments that) are somehow defective, I'm just saying that they're not necessarily the pinnacle of perfection. It's a bit like the world has arrived at the musical equivalent of the '57 Corvette and said, "Right, that's beautiful, so we don't need anything else."

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rowan
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 04:23 PM

Graham, you've suddenly illuminated (for me anyway) the reason why there are so many Harley Davidsons around; their owners (and the wannabees) haven't yet realised that the 1920s are no longer the pinnacle of good engineering.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 05:26 PM

Brass instruments? Like trumpets, perhaps, hmmm?

Well, I suppose that it is a technological dead-end when you've reached perfection.

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 06:34 PM

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

I suppose in biological term any successful species is a "biological dead end".

Subject: RE: BS: Technological Dead-ends
From: Grab
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 08:18 AM

Maybe I don't know enough about brass instruments, Rapaire, but I didn't know there was still significant development on them. Trumpets aren't exactly new, anyway. Still, OK, strike them off if there's people still working on new designs for them. Woodwind though - what's new there?

The problem with "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is that you spend the next 200 years driving a 57 Corvette instead of perhaps coming up with the GT40, Cobra, Countach or F355. Or even a Ford Focus, which will comfortably outperform the Corvette. As Rowan says, Harleys (and Corvettes) are seriously pretty - but in terms of performance they're seriously deficient in comparison to modern vehicles that have had 50 years of incremental improvement from people who *were* prepared to fix it.

When you reach perfection, then fine - there's nothing more to do. But look at violins, for example. Could the crappy pointy edges be replaced with guitar-style bindings which would properly the top and back? Sure, but Stradivarius didn't do it so we won't. Could the neck be thinned and the instrument lightened with strategic use of carbon-fibre? Yes, but S. didn't have carbon-fibre so we won't use it. Could we replace the truly horrible kludge of friction tuning pegs with lightweight geared tuners? Yes, but... Could we get rid of the time-consuming bent-side construction and use straight sides? Yes, but... Could we replace the F-hole ports with a more sensible design? Yes, but...

Graham.