Stealing gigs from the pro's

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 12:42 PM

It's great that so many folks are telling Hamish not to worry or feel guilty ~ and I suppose he really shouldn't. However, I share his feelings, because this problem is especially touchy in my town at this particular time.

Live music has always been a major factor in New Orleans' appeal as a tourist destination, and the tourism industry has been critical to the local economy for years. And, even in good times, musicians have always been underpaid ~ almost as severely underpaid as other workers critical to the tourism biz, like restaurant workers, hotel maids, cabbies, etc. It's historical fact that the tour-and-travel business provides a small number of well-placed individuals and corporations with big money, largely thanks to the efforts of a large number of thoroughly exploited wage-slaves.

Since the 2005 flood, tourism is off ~ even though the economy continues to rebound since being totally shut down immediately after Katrina, we are still hurting. A number of live music venues have not reopened, although there is still probably more live music in New Orleans than in any other US city. Most of the places that are open and offering music have to get by with reduced attendance and therefore smaller revenues. Many musicians who evacuated still cannot return to live in their hometown, especially those who were not homeowners prior to the storm, because rents have gone sky-high due to supply-and-demand.

The upshot is that plenty of opportunites in the local music industry are up for grabs. Many established players, and a few established venues, are now out of the picture. Those musicians who are here and available for gigs include talented and proven veterans who deserve to make a living wage, as well as wannabes of all ages and descriptions willing to take any opportunity for just about any level of compensation.

I think the right thing to do is to accept a gig ONLY if it pays well enough that a player more experienced and established than oneself would at least consider it. In other words, I would feel guilty to be, in effect, a "scab" serving to devalue performance of music and to deny fair payment to professional musicians who can do the job admirably ~ and who might not be particularly qualified to make their livings any other way.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 12:25 PM

You seem to equate 'trained', with 'professional'

Not a valid premise.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 12:03 PM

Isn't the essence of "folk" music that it's created by ordinary people (as opposed to trained musicians) for their own and each others' enjoyment (as opposed to commercial reasons)? So a "professional folk musician" would be a contradiction in terms.

Just thought I'd throw *that* in there.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:58 AM

Guest, can we please not go there?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST,perm
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:55 AM

JimLad,

How many gigs do you have booked at the moment?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:50 AM

To those interested in making a living at it. If one in ten venues is not turning you down because of money, you're not charging enough.
Just thought I'd throw that in there.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon for professional reasons (sorry)!
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:44 AM

Hamish you should indeed not feel guilty for one second - nor should anyone. It's a buyers market, and you get what both parties agree the gig's worth.

There's no law to say there must be so X club gigs at Y price to keep Z number of professionals in business.

And anyway, why should a club risk losing money on an unknown pro, when they can get a great local act that fills the room and costs half as much?

No, mate - you get what you need, or want, and enjoy!

But if you ARE that unknown pro, desperately chasing a dwindling supply of poorly paid gigs, and seeing the price for those gigs getting lower in real terms (while costs rise) because of the ready availibility of so many very good semi-pros - it can be desperately disheartening to hear the words 'oh we only book local acts and sure-fire big names these days'

see?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:42 AM

"Another thought: should amateur folksingers perform the "Blackleg Miner" at venues where professionals perform? Discuss."

Greg...excellent question.......of course they should, if not it assumes that someone is getting fat off the earnings of the poor hard working professional folk singers....and who would that be exactly?

Anahata: Surely "the going rate" is something just less than the door money (i.e door money minus costs and promotional budget)? That is what the market in any particular area is telling you it can stand?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:24 AM

Marje's theatre discussion doesn't really apply. Theatre pros don't compete with amateurs, it is a separate world, If you are working in the professional theatre, generally speaking people are paid Equity rates or better, and you are not working next to someone who likes doing it for the kudos alone. Those people go to the amateur company and act there. But in music, the two do perform on the same stage at the same events. Music is also radically different from most other professions precisely because of this odd fact about pros and amateurs competing. This does not apply in call centres or refuse collection, for example, because nobody is that keen to do these jobs for nothing.
    Personally, I am a professional muscian and have been for many years. Yes, it can be irritating when you hear that someone with a handsome day job salary has offered their services to a festival for nowt, but there you go. These things happen. The main point I would like to make in relation to Hamish's original post, where he contrasts his willingness to take the door money as opposed to a professional's fee. In most well run venues, the door money would be a perfect fee for a professional. I would always be happy to work a folk club for the door money(preferably with a guarantee, to keep the organisers on their toes). If you are profesasional, I should have thought the money people are willing to pay to see you ought to be enough for you!
    I think it is fair that people should be asked to think about these things. If you are good enough to hold the stage at a folk festival and entertain people, then I think you should charge a proper rate for it. Otherwise the scene cwould eventually become distorted, as it is only human nature for certain event organisers to cut financial corners and go for the cheapo acts, rather than the acts they feel would enhance the festival(or club). Too many of those acts, and the audiences will start to vote with their feet.
   Another thought: should amateur folksingers perform the "Blackleg Miner" at venues where professionals perform? Discuss.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: treewind
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:22 AM

Hamish: don't worry.
For one thing, some clubs operate on a door money policy anyway (Matt Armour's Song Loft in Stony Stratford for example) So do some very reputable performers.

For another: yes, there is a shortage of gigs and too many performers, but that's not your fault and you shouldn't feel guilty about it!

But having said that, don't undervalue yourself. A few years ago we got a lecture from Pete Coe about that - asking for low rates just to get the gig is devaluing the market for full time professional singers. You should charge the going rate for what you do. If a club wants to book you, hopefully they do so because they'd like to hear your songs, not because you're cheap. In fact clubs that work on the latter principle don't tend to last long...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:16 AM

Do what you want, Hamish. I'm on Vancouver Island these days, where you'll find on any given night, some of the finest musicians playing for door money and tip jars. I can go into the same establishment or two doors down and get $200 for an evening's work.
I get upset at the businesses who take advantage of these folk but not the entertainers.
As for working for the "Door". I'm slowly accepting this as the being the way it's done and have found that it can be just as lucrative or better than a nominal fee.
Nobody is going hungry because of you and you are just as much a professional as anyone else.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 10:56 AM

You're giving good entertainment value for money. You're helping support a local club (an endangered species) by ensuring they can stay in profit on your night, or at least not lose out - which then means they can perhaps afford to book a professional sooner than they otherwise would. Folded clubs (for lack of funds) are no good to ANYone, least of all the professionals.

This nourishes the whole scene. What's to feel guilty about?

Anyway, I think the two categories are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Sometimes people (or some people) just want to go for a fun night out, and will enjoy whatever's on the menu. But those who particularly want to see So And So The Star are going to turn up for that particular gig. It can be argued that you're helping to fuel the engine they run on.

Anyway, don't stop.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 10:45 AM

Quote from Dan Keding: "We should be more supportive of each other and not relegate the arts as a competitive sport."

Dan, I don't argue at all with the sentiment of this..... ....but what does it mean in financial terms? When there is a small pot to pay people how should this be shared out?

I don't think folk music is at all competitive at the amateur level (quite rightly), but if you are asking people to part with money you have to entertain....and it is your job as the artiste to persuade promoters & club organisers that you can do just that....and then the market dictates that you have to be able to do it better than others if you want to make more money than they do, i.e. a living (professionals)rather than beer money (semi-pros)....

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Dan Keding
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 10:24 AM

Stealing gigs is a delicate subject. I've been a full time performer (storyteller/folksinger) for over thirty years and I can only think of a handful of times I thought a gig was stolen from me. Everyone needs to learn their trade and learning the trade of being a performer means you have to perform and during that time you will most likely have another gig on the side. Also, many folks like to work where and when they want to, no argument there, so they also have a profession besides performing. The cream will rise to the top be it a full time performer or a part timer. There is work out there, during these more challenging financial times I'll admit there is less than normal, but you can also create work for yourself. We should be more supportive of each other and not relegate the arts as a competitive sport.

take care,

Dan

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Marje
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 10:15 AM

I don't see that you need feel guilty, Hamish.

Similar situations arise in other branches of the arts: there's amateur theatre, where people perform just for the love and the fun of it; amateur artists who sell their paintings at a rate that wouldn't equate to a decent hourly income; in classical music, the choirs are almost all unpaid while the orchestras do get paid for what is probably a lot fewer hours of rehearsal - it's simply a reflection of the supply-and-demand situation, and the level and scarcity of the skills they offer.

There are also other areas of employment where voluntary workers support (or undermine, depending on your point of view) the paid workers - conservation, CAB work, youth work, etc.

When someone chooses to try to make a living out of something they really enjoy doing, they have to accept that there will be others who want to do the same thing and don't mind doing it for little or no financial reward. If you're out to be a professional, you'll have to have something extra to offer. Many or most of the pros in the sorts of jobs I've mentioned - including the folk world - started out as amateurs doing it for free in order to get established and known, so I don't see how they can object to others trying to do the same, or simply enjoying themselves entertaining others.

I mean, what other options are there? Everyone insisting on MU rates before they'd do a floor spot? I can't think of a feasible alternative to the present system.

Marje

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 10:03 AM

I think, from the venue's point of view, it has more got to do with the maxim of getting something as cheap as possible.

Agents and venue owners can spot the over-compromising artist, and some are ruthless enough to take advantage.
I wouldn't call it 'stealing gigs', though.

One should have confidence enough in one's own capabilities before one steps on to a stage. Musicians are not born publicists, but ultimately it is down to the individual's engagement in what they do, to further themselves.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 10:00 AM

Hamish....duly noted that you don't need the money:-)!!!

Seriously:

Surely this is a simple supply and demand question...if the product is good enough (and "sold" properly) people will come out and see it.....the pros should be that much better than the semi's as they have more time to practice and/ or more talent......they should be able to get more people through the door.

If not...should they expect to be full time pros?

There are lots of very good semi-pros around who earn reasonable but not excessive fees in the folk clubs.....surely this should drive true excellence from the pros if they are to differentiate themselves?

Hamish...why should you feel guilty? If you provide an entertaining evening and some people are prepared to pay to see you that's great.....no one is owed a living!

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:55 AM

I don't think you are "stealing work" from anyone. Live entertainment is a buyer's market, and the going rate is whatever the buyer is prepared to pay. When I was doing it full time, I often worked for less than the semi pros. That was because they could afford to turn down gigs, which I had to take. Now that I earn money from other sources, I have a choice. I can take gigs, which I don't care so much about - as long as the money is right. Or I can do gigs, which I love, which pay peanuts. What I never have to do is to take work because I desperately need it at any price. It's up to the pros to make a living - not to others to make it easy for them.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Hamish
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:49 AM

Gafpr(s) = GUEST,Anon for professional reasons (sorry)

--
Hamish

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:47 AM

What the feck is Gafpr[s]

eric

Subject: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Hamish
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:45 AM

In the thread "folksingers who quit,and why?", GUEST,Anon for professional reasons (sorry)! said:

5) Not being able to fill your diary because there are simply not enough club gigs out there any more, and also way too many people wanting to play them (often for peanuts because they don't need the money).

This worries me. Because, Gafpr(s), you mean me and those like me. I have recently accepted a gig at an established club for the evening's door money - no guarantee. It's a reasonably local club, so I'll probably cover my petrol money. And it's no big deal to me if I don't - because, as you say, I don't need the money. And I can sell a few promo CDs and make money for the local hospice. And the club will get a good night's entertainment with no financial risk. And they'll keep the raffle profits :-)

But I can't help feeling a bit guilty because I'm taking a potential gig from Gafpr(s) and those like him/her, who are trying to pay the rent and feed the kids on gigs and CD sales. And I'd assume the club would get more people through the door, too.

On the other hand, how do people get to be pro's when they haven't yet got a big following if they don't get out there and play?

I don't know. Should I feel guilty? Would it be better if I turned down the peanuts and held out for a realistic "pro" fee?

--
Hamish