BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)

Subject: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:52 AM

On CNN this morning, a report of a Polish man ( who did not speak English) in a Canadian airport who was tasered by the RCMP and died.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:54 AM

GET EM

thats what we train them to do.

Hell in the US we have shot and killed two perfectly innocent passengers (oops) and hung one (opps the handcuffs got stuck by her own doing)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:58 AM

Yes, but aren't tha Canadians morally superior to the US?

Or do they have feet of clay like the rest of the human race?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:59 AM

"CANADIAN police are under fire after a tourist's video showing the dramatic last moments of a Polish construction worker.

Robert Dziekanski, 40, of Pieszyce, Poland, was shown to have died after police shocked him with a Taser stun gun at Vancouver's airport last month.

Mr Dziekanski was on his first plane trip to see his mother, whom he wanted to live with after migrating to Canada.

After waiting 10 hours for her after a mix-up, he apparently panicked. He died within minutes.

In the video, Mr Dziekanski, who spoke no English, appears frightened and exhausted, and speaks to himself in Polish. Agitated, at one point, he throws a computer to the ground.

Four policemen surround him. One says, "How are you, sir?"

He appears to turn his back on them, trying to move away.

A policeman hits him with a Taser; he screams, falls, and writhes as the police pin him down.

Seconds later, he is seen lying still.

Police had originally taken a tourist's video recording; he went to court to get it back."

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:02 AM

"By CINDY GEORGE and JOHN MCCLAIN
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

Houston Texans football player Fred Weary, who was shocked by police with a Taser last year during a traffic stop, has sued the city of Houston and the two officers involved in the incident.

In a federal civil rights lawsuit filed Tuesday, the athlete said he was unlawfully stopped, shocked and arrested during an encounter with officers Margaret T. McGivern and Joe F. Vasquez. Weary says his constitutional rights were violated by excessive force, malicious prosecution, assault and false imprisonment.

Weary, who is black, also accuses the defendants of racial profiling.

The offensive lineman said he wants to defend his reputation and find out why so many people shocked by the Houston Police Department are charged in those incidents but not convicted."

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:03 AM

Nov. 14, 2007, 8:53AM
Taser Gets 3 Orders From Police Agencies

SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. — Stun-gun maker Taser International Inc. said Wednesday it has received three "significant" orders from law-enforcement agencies in Texas, Virginia and Tennessee.

The Houston police department ordered 480 X26 electronic weapons and accessories; the police department in Suffolk, Va., ordered 140 of the stun guns and 140 cameras; and the Hamilton County Sheriff's Department in Chattanooga, Tenn., ordered 110 stun guns and 110 camera systems.

Financial terms were not disclosed. The orders will ship during the fourth quarter.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:04 AM

"Today, by the count of CBS News, 70 people have died after being TASERed, including 10 in August alone, Andrews observes. And while the company asserts every one of these victims died of something else, many critics believe the company has not done enough research to know that with certainty, Andrews adds."




Take your trolling and run along, Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:06 AM

Seems your folks are better at it than ours, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:15 AM

Incidentally, of the documented 245 deaths by taser, worldwidem 15 have been in Canada by users of the device which sends 50,000 volts through the persons body. That's about 6% for anyone interested. Now, I will leave this thread and allow beardedbruce to continue his anti-Canadian effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:18 AM

We have 10 times the population, thus 10 times the deaths. But I guess I *** CAN *** complain about the posting of deaths by US police, since you protest the poesting of those by Canadians.

Again, I see no reason for YOU to protest abotu the posting of the ills of Canada when the posting of US problems goes is met with approval as proof of the US having bad intentions.


Sometimes an accident IS an accident. But around here, it becomes a reason to castigate the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:20 AM

BE CAREFUL

Whenever an airport employee asksyou how you are they are actually asking the first question of the threat assessment protocal.

I kid you not!

best to say you are fine and dandy. if you even say you have a headache you go to the next threat assessment level which is detainment and search.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:23 AM

Except in Canada, where they give you an aspirin.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:24 AM

This thread is beneath you, beardedbruce. In fact, it's beneath trolling. Though you were better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:27 AM

70?

thats not so many

How would Cheney respond to a bit of tasing?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:28 AM

I agree that the US gets more than its share of blame. But telling me to mow my lawn doesn't make yours look better.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:30 AM

I'll remember that the next time the US is criticized for something the police do.


MY point is that, even in utopic nations such as Canada, who are morally pure and favoured by the gods, accidents/unintended consequences can occur. If it can even happen there, perhaps some should be a * little * slower to assign deliberate intention on the part of the US to some things that occur.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:33 AM

Incidentally,

"the posting of US problems goes is met with approval as proof of the US having bad intentions."

1) You are much more logical than THAT, bb.

2) Sometimes countries DO have bad intentions. (Witness Canada and the asbestos trade.)

3) If you were meaning to discuss tasers as being a poor choice of weapons (because the seeming harmlessness when compared to .38s or 9 mm guns appear to be more lethal thus rendering the taser a 'good' second choice), I agree. If you started this thread to slag Canada--which is how it seems, then you are trolling and it's beneath you.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:33 AM

In the UK of course we shoot ours in the head with seven shots.

Remarkably no-one is prosecuted for killing an innocent man.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7061718.stm

ou would have thought with around twenty witnesses and four or five policeman present when it happened that someone would have been found guilty.

How do they find people who have killed people when there are no witnesses and no police present!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:34 AM

We have laws here that fine you if you don't mow your lawn. They say a unmowed lawn decreases property values.

But its OK to drop your property value due to mortgage crimes/schemes and meltdowns by 40%

no fine for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:34 AM

"But telling me to mow my lawn doesn't make yours look better. "

Then perhaps some here should stop telling the US how to deal with situations that their own countries have failed, for various reasons, to deal effectively with...


Stil waiting for the European Union to take care of the whole Iranian nuclear situation, as they promised in order to stop any US action.


I just take some comfort in the fact that the IRBMs that Iran presently have will only reach to Europe, and not across the Atlantic.

Though they can be launched from a container ship several hundred miles off the coast...

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:39 AM

Tasers are safe so those people had no right to die. They should have read the instructions first.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:40 AM

Peace,

Tasers are like those ther criticised, horrible "non-lethal" weapons such as sonic guns, tear gas and rubber bullets. They CAN kill, and that needs to be shouted to the world. BUT they are FAR less lethal than the alternatives- bullets and bayonets.

Of course, it has always been ok to batter your opponants to death- but look at the protests over the various "non-lethat" weapons as being nhumane

Tear gas has probably saved more lives than were killed in the Civil War ( American) Look at the death tolls in those places that still use "traditional" methods of crowd control

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:43 AM

So we are now stemming the tide of the Muslim jihad hoard
by tazing anyone who feels frustrated?

Aww Bearded bruce is frustrated.
He may think a nuclear solution to jihad is over due.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:58 AM

"Aww Bearded bruce is frustrated.
He may think a nuclear solution to jihad is over due. "


Maybe Donuel is the frustrated one.

I have stated repeatedly that the nation who first uses nuclear weapons in a present-day conflict is wrong, should be consigned to hell.

And when, because of the failure of the UN and the European Union to deal with Iran's nuclear program Hezbollah gets access to a WMD, I fear that they WILL use it, and that, unless they are all destroyed, and none of their goals achieved, it will be established that the use on WMD is acceptable, and will occur repeatedly in the future.

We have gone 60+ years without having nuclear weapons used: The other WMDs WERE used ( by Saddam, for example).

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:00 AM

Any first use of nuclear weapons may well consign all of us to Hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:04 AM

Parts of Canada, and South America will probably survive. But you might have to learn Chinese to talk to your government.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:18 AM

Good for you Bruce,

still

Once you introduce "pre emptive" invasions and torture as the norm the slippery slope to first use nukes is slick as hell.

Did you ever think how proving who set it off first would be subject to the same propoganda we see on FOX everyday.
Few would ever really know who was first.
nor would it matter to anyone except the victims and warlord propogandists.

The production of tiny tactical nukes (against treaties) is said to be big business in this administration.
This regieme still touts Strength over diplomacy.
Strength does not mean wisdom in this case unless population control via nuke and bio warfare is wise.

This is why deficits don't matter. Corp corruption dosen't matter. Making more money than God will buy a bunker capable of weathering the planned storm.

We can only hope that these ideas are purely cynical.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:19 AM

Jaysus, I need SOME other language to talk with my government. They do NOT understand English, that's a fer shore. Thanks to you making me aware of the sabestos thing with Canada I have sent e-mails. Also about Burma. And a few other things. They seem not to hear or understand.

Dear __________________,

Thank you for your interest in this important issue. We will forward your concerns to the appropriate department, blah, blah, blah.

Sincerely,

We Who Control Things

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:23 AM

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/famtree_dees.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,Zeke
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:51 AM

Perhaps I'm not the only one who can't figure out what someone means when they say, "We have laws here..." Unless you tell us, many of us don't know where you live. Are Donuel or Bearded Bruce from the U.K. or America or someplace else? It would be easier to understand if this was made clear.
Thanks to Folkie Dave for saying, "In the U.K. we..."
I realize that some of the regular members may forget that some of us newbies don't know you yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:53 AM

BB and Don are Americans. I am Canuck. And you are . . . ?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 01:03 PM

Not just American, but.... INSIDE the Beltway!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: gnu
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 02:36 PM

Now you have lost me too, bb. What does "INSIDE the Beltway!" mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 02:52 PM

"Inside the beltway"...where straw man arguments are, I presume, tolerated and used with impunity?

You gotta find a new approach to making points, bb. That's the same basic tack you took way back at the Teresa Heinz Kerry 'naughty language' incident.

   YOU are the one asserting that everyone ELSE is applying different standards to US incidents and, further, that THEY are implying that their country(s) are pure and without blame.....but unless you can specifically cite such a claim & implication, it don't work as an argument. Yes, the US does get a lot of unfair criticism, but showing that an incident also happened somewhere else doesn't lessen ANY guilt.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:02 PM

(In Wash D.C. area, where both bb & I live, "Inside the Beltway" can mean physically located within the I-495 ring that encircles the place, or suggest that someone is comprised by being associated with the bureaucracy)

Though...neither of us live or work inside the Beltway..as far as I know. I thought bb worked at a more distant facility. Perhaps I misunderstood

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,Mrrzy on Firefox, where's my cookie?
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:33 PM

Don't tase me, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:36 PM

Your cookie was confiscated by security, Mrrzy...thank goodness you didn't fight them for it!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,Zeke
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:59 PM

I'm a Canadian and I know that there are many Canadians whose actions I don't approve of, including the police in the video in question. There are also many Americans, British, Irish, Mexicans, Iraquis... whose actions I don't approve of, but there are also many Canadians, Americans, British, Irish, Mexicans, Iraquis whom I would be happy to call my friend. The country of origin has little to do with many of our actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:35 PM

The country of origin has little to do with many of our actions.

I agree with what Zeke said. Folks in every nation has done both great good and great evil. I don't know of any Utopia on earth.

-Azizi {another UnitedStater}

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:47 PM

"Inside the Beltway" has very negative connotations in the rest of the US.

The local cops are looking into Tasers. Currently they can physically restrain you, use an expandable baton, use a "beanbag" shotgun round (if the car is so equipped), or shoot you dead with a 5.56mm carbine or a .45 ACP Glock pistol or a 12 gauge shotgun. The Sheriff's office has Tasers and our cops are looking at them as something between hand-to-hand combat and shooting you with something.

Knowing our police dept., there will be VERY strict rules on their use. This, after all, is The Wild West -- not Texas.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:48 PM

Using a taser in circumstances when the only other option would be to shoot the target person with a gun seems, at least in principle, justifiable,

In any other circumstances it ought to be treated as an act of attempted murder. And if the target died, as an act of murder. Whoever does it - police officer or bank robber.

That doesn't seem to be how their use is regulated in places where they are in use, and I get worried about the proposed arming of police in England with these dangerous toys. I think there are some members of the force who are quite capable of this kind of thing.
................

It's a bit nasty the way this thread has been dominated by a rather squalid little squabble between neighbours in North America. THe fact that this poor bloke died seems to be seen as trivial.   

This news story link has the video showing the police killing Robert Dziekanski. Pretty clearly this wasn't a situation where the only other option would have been to shoot him with a gun. Hell, there were four large policemen around him, and no members of the public anywhere near.

What is shown in that video is brutal, cowardly and incompetant, and that would have been just as true whatever country it happened in.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:13 PM

Not just American, but.... just barely OUTSIDE the Beltway!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:20 PM

Cowardly is not too strong a term.

I don't want to watch the video but I may end up seeing it against my will. It does seem like a story that is NOT on cable news however, especially with everyone about to fly for the holidays.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:30 PM

As a former Military Policeman, I can see several alternatives to what the police in video did.

It should have been possible to grapple with the man and use ordinary hand-to-hand tactics (which are, or should be, part of every cop's training) to restraint him. After that finding someone to speak with him in his own language would have been feasible.

Looks to me like some boys had some toys and used them instead of doing some good police work.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:37 PM

Did the man destroy an airport computer?

Did the airport self destruct?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:52 PM

Generally you have no constitutional rights in real time police actions.

If you do not speak the language you are even further disadvantaged.

the ACLU makes films to help you survive police encounters

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3435730304776119545&q=busted+aclu+police&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:18 PM

The very end of the video clip has to do with airline searches.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Grab
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:26 PM

Related, the BBC had an article today about a guy in Leeds who was tazed because he was a diabetic in a hypo coma and couldn't talk! This was shortly before De Menezes was shot - according to the article, the bloke said "When I heard about that Brazilian man in London I just thought, 'oh no, that could have been me'."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/7096456.stm

Don't get me wrong; it's better to shoot someone with a tazer than a bullet. But it's better still to use your brains and figure out whether the person in your sights is a threat or not.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:34 PM

Technology is no substitute for good police work -- or plain old good sense.

It's a tool, not a solution in itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: number 6
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:42 PM

"But you might have to learn Chinese to talk to your government."

I'm Canadian, and I'm already sending my (almost 3 yr. old) Canadian grandson to Chinese language lessons.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:50 PM

Bottom line is, for a police oficer armed with a gun, if and only if they would otherwise have felt obliged to shoot the target person, and able to justify doing that, would a police officer be justified in using a taser on them.

In the UK where police officers aren't generally armed with guns it gets more hypothetical - my worry is that the effect might even be to make them more trigger happy with their new toys once they have them.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:09 PM

Well, again, we do not have the FACTS in. It certainly appears to be real real unfortunate. Reminds me of the poor lady in the US airport who was detained and died in custody, choked by the restraints.

I am tempted to say this is an unforunate little era we're going through, when the very people who could extend some understanding to those out of kilter are tasked with maintaining a procedural environment that makes one just that much more desperate.

Bottom line: If you can't BE normal, by gum, y'better ACT normal.

Donuel's imaginary world is getting more realer alla time.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:10 PM

"By David Ljunggren and Allan Dowd
OTTAWA/ VANCOUVER, British Columbia (Reuters) - Canada ordered a review into the use of Tasers on Thursday after graphic video footage emerged showing police using the stun guns to shoot an unarmed Polish immigrant who then collapsed and died.

The video -- broadcast repeatedly on Canadian and U.S. television networks and posted on the Internet -- showed the immigrant, Robert Dziekanski, shrieking in agony after he was hit by 50,000-volt blasts at Vancouver International Airport a month ago.

"I've asked for a review relating to the use of Tasers. ... This is a tragic and grievous incident. We want to find out answers that can prevent these things from happening in the future," Public Security Minister Stockwell Day told Parliament."

from Reuters

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: gnu
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:15 PM

When men with guns "tell" me to "submit", guess what I am gonna do?

I am gonna lay down on the ground that they are pointing to.

Don't tell me they don't teach the RCMP basic sign language and I won't tell you that only a fucked up puppy would piss off a bunch of Glockies.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:15 PM

Well, again, we do not have the FACTS

That video seems quite enough facts on which to judge that this was something that should not and need not have happened.

Precisely who should be charged for this killing is another matter - before using the taser one of the policemen phoned for permission to do so, and was evidently given it. That implies another person who could perhaps belong in the dock as well.

But of course that won't happen...

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: pdq
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:29 PM

I was going to mention Rodney King, who was hit by a Taser at least twice and still charged the police like an angry rhino, but I found this...

                               ...intersesting assessment

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:44 PM

Which brings up another point: the use of drugs can change effect of anything used to "bring down" a suspect.

A case in point: very shortly after a State Police department in the Midwestern US were issued 15-round Smith&Wesson 9mm pistols, a veteran and a rookie on patrol around a very major city stopped a vehicle. The driver, who later tests showed was on high doses of PCP, attacked the two cops AND bystanders AND others in his vehicle. Finally, the police felt they had no other choice and emptied their pistols, hitting the man 28 out of 30 times. He kept coming, kept up his drug-induced rage, and was finally killed with a shotgun. (This police department no longer carries 9mm; immediately after this incident all of the pistols were recalled and replaced with the venerable .357s previously used.)

Would a Taser have stopped him? I don't know, but I doubt it.

But my point is still valid: why, in the Vancouver case, was at least one Taser used instead of other methods? Four cops, one guy...I've been there, there was a scuffle, the guy was subdued with bruises only to the cops. (Later I was charged with police brutality in this matter; I and the other three were cleared -- even the guy we arrested was surprised how "mild" we were with him, not using our nightsticks or anything. I may be the only Mudcatter who was ever charged with police brutality....)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:07 PM

Having met you, Rapaire, I can attest that you carry yourself very calmly and you look to be more than capable of handling situations. If you'd ever intended to be 'brutal', the subject would not have walked away from it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:27 PM

Actually, I was on the other side of the car to prevent the prisoner from dashing straight on through. When the prisoner broke and ran, I had to run around the car and by that time the other three guys had the prisoner on the ground; I was the one who put the handcuffs on him and sat next to him in the car as he was taken to the station, booked, and put into the holding cell to "dry out" somewhat.

He was a nasty, mean, vicious, fighting drunk.

Again, I don't know if a Taser would have made any difference even if we'd had such a thing back then.

Oh, by the way -- the complaint was filed by his quiet friend, not by the prisoner.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:06 PM

But you're right, Peace: if it's him or me, I'll do my best to make sure it's him.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 03:22 AM

I have alot of questions about this incident.

Why would any airport allow anyone to 'languish' in the arrival area for 10 hours? Are there no services for people who need a translator? Its supposed to be an International Airport! The mother was there to pick him up but couldn't find him and nobody helped her either.

When the police were called. It took them about 12 seconds to assess the situation. Not much consultation involved at all. After they taser him and he is obviously in agony, they jump on him. It looks to me like they actually attempt to hurt him by putting so much weight on him. Both legs of one officer came completely off the ground. Wasn't the laser enough restraint?

What cowards. It took a laser and a four big guys to restrain a man who needed help and who did not appear to be a threat to anyone. It boggles the mind that assault occurs on a daily basis with little or no consequences but this is the response to a man who smashes a computer!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 03:39 AM

Did I say laser? I meant taser.

Good night.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 06:48 AM

In Oz there has been recently some discussion about letting the cops play with tasers - there have also been several very nasty incidents (as witnessed by external observers) with the recently allowed 'pepper spray'...

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 07:00 AM

The footage has just been shown here, with a long piece with the woman witness who tried to talk to him in a couple of languages, including sign. It seemed to me that he was very frightened. The woman was very distressed, and mention was made that the officers were overheard discussing the use of the taser before they even sighted the man. He was tasered in under a minute from first confrontation from the story presented here. Incidentally no medical staff were called till after he had been down for 12 minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 09:15 AM

As I understand it, the idea behind the "pile-on" is to a) remove the taser darts and b) try to prevent injury to the victim from his taser-induced "fit" (that's not the word I want, but it's descriptive).

But Dianavan's point is well taken: Why WAS the man allowed to remain without help for 10 hours in a waiting area?   

And what caused him to panic?

There are a LOT of unanswered questions here.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 09:27 AM

Oh, by the way -- cops here have found that there are people who seem to be immune to pepper spray. It just makes them angry.

And spraying it into the wind is...well, dumb...but it's been done.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: 3refs
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 09:28 AM

It's pretty easy, to take a look at that short piece of footage they show on the news and conclude that the R.C.M.P. should have done everything differently. Watch the entire video(12-15min)and you'll see that Mr Dziekanskind had, at various times, armed himself and acted in a threatening manner. This is the information the Mounties received. I hope all of you can appreciate the fact, that this kind of information, would be of most concern to any police officer in the world. Mr Dziekanskind made a move towards some of the smashed equipment that was nearby on the floor. Yes, they were big burly boys, but unless you've been smashed in the side of the head with something that someone was able to get their hands on quickly, you don't have a clue.
Sudbury, 1978 I was able to inflict bodily harm on six of them before they finally got me on the ground and then into the cruiser! I wish they'd had a taiser, I'd have taken a hell of a lot less beating and spent a considerable lot less time in jail!!!
And just for the record, up until the Sudbury Regional Police showed up, I hadn't committed any criminal offences(this particular time).

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: 3refs
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 09:32 AM

Isn't Pepper Spray and Binaca the same thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 01:54 PM

Part of the problem is that the RCMP has no effective civillian oversight, it always investigates itself and it is now among the most underfunded and worst trained police force in Canada. This has led to all sorts of tragedies, not only for the general public, but for members of the force itself.

A large amount of problems occur in BC, because 1/3 of the total RCMP trained in Canada are stationed here. BC has never bothered to form a provincial police force and many municipalities find it cheaper just to hire the RCMP as a policing unit. The RCMP were called to the airport, not because it was a federal facility, but because they are the police force for the City of Richmond, where the facility is located.

According to recent reports I have heard, compared to local municipal and Provincial forces, such as the OPP, their training and requirements for ongoing upgrading has gone in the toilet in the past couple of decades. This is a terrible disservice to those in the force and it puts the general public at far greater risk as well.

As far as what went on at YVR with Mr. Dziekanski, prior to the police being called, having worked on the Customs line at one time, I have my opinions. They were never a particularly helpful, kindly bunch. I would have hoped that things might have changed in the intervening years, but the deafening silence, on their part, would seem to indicate otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bobad
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 02:05 PM

Too much power, too little education.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 02:15 PM

British Columbia DID have a provincial police force, but it was disbanded in the 1950s or '60s. I have some books on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 02:20 PM

AGAIN I say wait for the facts. A little bit of tape do not the whole story make.

Among the things I heard off the Canada radio from just over the border in Vancouver was that after the unfortunate Mr. Dziekanski was down, one of the officers put a knee over his neck. Done just so, this can cause unconsciousness and death. Point being, the taser might not be the killer.

Given the interests over this matter, a proper autopsy must be done.

And again, it is a shame there is not more effort made into parsing a situation in order to distinguish between organized terrorism, criminality, and random crazies or fish very much out of water. Just because it's hard to make a judgment call doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried. Four big coppers, no sign of diversionary activity, time is on their side. There is a whole field in law enforcement given over to negotiators. Maybe some of their training needs to be expanded into non-hostage situations where you have individuals under distress.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 02:26 PM

I stand corrected Rap, we did and the NWMP too. The BC Provincial Police were disbanded shortly after WWII. I know relatively little about them, not having lived lived in the more wild a wooly parts of this province and forgetting my history lessons. Me bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 06:53 PM

Tasers can kill, that's the bottom line. That means that they should never be used unless the situation is such as to justify using a real gun, in which case a taser is a better alternative.

They also inflict terrible pain, and that in itself should rule out any use in circumstances that would not justify shooting. The police don't have the authority to inflict physical punishment on people they are arresting. Judge Dredd has no place outside a comic book.

One aspect of this case is that without the video record, which the police involved were getting away with a largely fabricated story about what happened - and eye-witness statements that contradicted this falsified version were being totally discounted and discredited by the police authorities. What's new there?

From here:
"The four officers involved are still on active duty following an internal review, according to RCMP Cpl. Greg Gillis, a training instruction in the use of Tasers. Mr. Gillis said the review did not show any concern that the officers acted punitively or outside their regular duties. If it had, he said, the officers would likely have been relegated to desk duty or suspended."

And the other thing that hasn't been mentioned here is that all this happened a month ago on October 14th, and it's only come to light now because the attempt by the police - not the individal policemen who were involved in killing Mr Dziekanski, but the department itself - to suppress the video evidence was frustrated by a court action by the man who made the video, and who had handed it to the police in the first place.

"At the request of police, he gave them the video on the understanding they would return it immediately. When they then refused to give it back, he launched court action. Police returned it last week." (from here)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 09:56 PM

Believe it or not, a Taser puts out less electricity than an automatic external defibrillator (AED). There are, however, Certain Differences....

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 11:32 PM

As for translators, all one needs to do is glance at a passport to see the country of orgin. Very easy to access. Anyone trained in the use of tasers should have all ready been trained in the use of restraint holds & joint locks. If they hadn't been then they had no right being hired for this type of duty.
Deaths of this nature are not acceptable, under any circumstances.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 04:53 AM

It is not often you get the chance to amaze someone, today happens to be my opportunity:

Dianavan you are 100% correct on this. A man was wandering about the controlled arrivals area of an International Airport for 10 hours and no member of staff, immigration, customs or police officer noticed or thought to ask him why. At that point the language problem would have become self-evident - anybody out there willing to tell me that it would have been impossible to take this man to an office with a telephone and arrange for a Polish Translator to talk to the man. I believe that all that could have been accomplished within the first hour.

Now let's have a look at the other side of the arrivals area, the one open to the public. The mother went to pick him up and when he didn't come out through the door she just trotted off without asking if her son had arrived?

In this age of supposed heightened awareness at airports, if the people present were doing their jobs as they are supposed to do, I just cannot for the life of me see how, or why, this incident was allowed to degenerate to the final result of a completely innocent mans death.

What seems to have been singularly lacking in this situation from the word go was total lack of application of common sense by all involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: gnu
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 11:05 AM

Dianavan, Teribus, McGrath, others... spot on. This is unacceptable.

However, for those who would be so quick as to condemn the officers, as I said above, when men with uniforms and guns arrive, I think I would be well advised to stop throwing things and submit to their orders.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 11:19 AM

In my opinion there is no excuse for what the cops did THEY were out of control.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 12:07 PM

True enough, gnu - in the very same way that if some mugger wants your wallet or your phone, you would be best advised to hand it over without making a fuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 12:14 PM

gnu, having followed this closely in the news here and watched the full video, he was not throwing things around when the police arrived. In fact, when the video was shown with the assistance of a Polish translator, he was actually calling for the the Police, as they came up the wallkway.

If someone told you to "put your hands on the desk" in Polish, how many seconds would it take for you to figure out that was what was requested, in order to comply? Ooops, can't figure out "Polozone wasze rece na biurze" in under 5 seconds? Zap! you're down! Try figuring that command out when your exhausted, dehydrated, confused, frustated and have absolutely no understanding of Polish.

Terribus, the Mother had waited in International Arrivals for over 3 hours and made many inquiries at various information kiosks about her son. She was finally told by an airport official that he was not there and to go home.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 03:02 PM

Correction, 6 hours, story here.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 03:12 PM

Kinda looks like a whole buncha people screwed this one up...airport officials, cops....

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 03:22 PM

I heard that interview with the airport official on the CBC and was appalled by his stonewalling; "I don't know", "We don't have an answer" "We haven't looked at that yet." Holy crap, it has been a month since this happened, there should be some answers. I hope when all comes out that someone is willing to take responsibility but the cynic in me says it will be blamed on a breakdown in communications, the system not working the way it is supposed to blah blah blah, everything except people screwing up.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: gnu
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 04:19 PM

Okay. I am sorry. He was completely docile. And the police tasered him just because they felt in tasering mood.

Yeah, right. I am outta here. Have fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 04:44 PM

I was downplaying it when I commented previously that custom officers at YVR can be unfriendly and unhelpful. Some that I worked with were obstreperous, brusque, surly, rude, resentful and unabashedly racist. One regular international flight, which usually had immigrants to process, who were commonly treated with contempt and disdain, was nicknamed the Camel Driver's Express.

I witnessed a new immigrant's personal belongings thrown on the floor because the officer on the front line deemed it too unhygienic for him to soil his hands with it. The only help the confused man received was from myself and an Hawaiian Air stewardess on our hands and knees helping him retrieve and repack his meager possessions and directing him to the next area for processing.

As I said, I hope things may have changed, but somehow I doubt the first edict of COVER YOUR ASS has gone by the wayside.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 05:26 PM

He wasn't calm gnu, but he didn't scare one of the women there enough to not approach him and try to assist. When she was interviewed, she said she felt she was not in any personal danger talking to him. He wasn't threatening people, but inanimate objects. Silly woman, eh? Should have tasered her too for her bad judgement.

It would seem they were in a tasering mood, the first words one police officer was overheard to say, as they walked into the adjoining room where the few onlookers were, was, "Can I taser him?"

This was before they entered the other room and he put his hands up.

I will grant they could have felt pressed for time though. There was another flight due to arrive in a few minutes. God knows you wouldn't want to delay more passengers for awhile. Some of them could have been armed with hand luggage.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 05:48 PM

As a Canadian I must say I am truly ashamed and enraged after this tragic incident.
   Airport staff who were so unhelpful deserve to be fired. Custom staff who were on duty at the time should be dismissed as well.
The RCMP have been caught in the act by a citizen with a video camera. Their first concern seems to have been to confiscate the damning evidence. I understand that it took a court order for his property to be returned. The mounties spin doctors were called in to cover their collective arses while they investigated themselves. If it were not for this indisputable evidence it would be the word of four mounties against a couple of witnesses and the truth may have been much less readily apparent.
The RCMP has long been a symbol of the best of our heritage. The force is populated by fine and dedicated people who are willing to lay their lives on the line to protect the rest of us, and those certainly deserve our respect and thanks. However these four bad apples should have long ago been charged with criminal negligence causing death. If any other persons did this they would be before a judge the next day to face that charge. Other charges could be laid following a full investigation but the video is sufficient evidence to lay the preliminary charge. That would have put the RCMP in a better light. Instead they gave us spin. The head of the force has recently been forced out and he has been replaced with a civilian leader in order to clean the force up. So far improvement seems lacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 06:44 PM

Thanks for the information Metchosin.

So after repeated and what must have been obviously concerned requests by the mother regarding her son's whereabouts nobody at the airport could communicate, or more likely be bothered to communicate, through a glass partion.

If they had someone might just have exercised enough common sense to put two and two together, I mean the guy was only wandering around there for 8/10 hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 07:06 PM

my opinion, though I havent looked at any stats to back this up, is that
once armed with a (supposedly) less lethal weapon such as the taser- the
police are much more likely to use it than to have to wrestle the guy down (even though theres 4 of them).

although it may not have been the taser that caused his death, according to the man who filmed the incident one of the cops had his knee on the mans neck and at one point in the video you see all his weight on it as his other leg is off the ground.

of course police work is dangerous, however there has been a string of incidents which resulted in the death people in custody - and no real accountability..
for instance a young man with no criminal past - arrested for drinking in a public place - sent to the drunk tank - ends up being shot in the back of the head by the one police officer on duty in the jail that night. The coroners and subsequent enquiry found no guilt - the police officer was afraid for his life ..

currently theres an inquiry into the death of an aboriginal man - who after being taken to a drunk tank - is dragged out unconscious, in his soaking wet clothes into below zero weather and dies of exposure.
The 2 police officers involved were 'punished' by having 2 days suspension (paid leave). Frank Paul Inquiry

elsewhere in Saskatchewan where the weather often drops below 40 in winter,
there was a number of first nations (aboriginal) men who died of exposure outside city limits.. Later it came out that a group of police officers regularly dropped people off in the middle of nowhere.. again it was covered up for years and even after a public inquiry - the only real punishment was that two were kicked off the force..Stone Child Inquiry

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 07:42 PM

I respect cops, all cops. They put themselves where you and I would much rather not be, and the best are damned good indeed. I personally know one African-American cop who, unarmed, would talk to gangs who knew he was a cop and unarmed and troublemakers, trying to prevent violence and crime.

I do not respect bad or unprofessional cops. These four seem to fall in this category. They appear to be among those who feel that since they have a badge and gun they have the right to run roughshod over others. I've met this kind, too.

Cops are given weapons -- lethal and otherwise -- for the protection of society. Some lose sight of this.

As I noted earlier, the PD here is considering Tasers. I talked, informally, to JR (the Police Chief) about them. He said that the same rules that apply to the use of lethal force should and would apply to the use of Tasers. That sounds reasonable to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 08:19 PM

I certainly agree Rapaire that the police should be equipped with Tasers
or a similar weapon to be used if possible before lethal force. My reasoning is that it may save lives rather than take them. It should never be used as a routine tool. In this case it was four (I would expect highly trained officers) against one poor confused soul. There was no time taken to evaluate the situation or any reasonable fear of threat. The Taser was just used as a tool to apprehend someone who wasn't going anywhere. If he had survived the police would have been nothing short of bullies who were negligent of any safety for the man. Since he died the action was criminal and the officers should have been arrested and charged as soon as reasonably possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 08:36 PM

This apparently only came to the attention of the media, after a whole month had passed, because another passenger videoed it, and was able to defeat the attempt by the police to suppress the recording.

Is there CCTV footage of this, which the police have succeeded in suppressing? In England there probably would be - there's CCTV pretty well everywhere, certainly in an airport terminal..

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 09:08 PM

It's comstantly been in the media here McGrath since it first occurred. The young man who filmed the whole event has been interviewed non-stop. He had to go to court to get his video released and it pretty much confirms what he and the other witnesses first recounted and not the story of the event, first put forward by an RCMP spokesman.

There should be CCTV of what he was doing for the ten hours prior to his tragic death, but this is Canada, eh. It won't come forward from airport officials anytime soon. Who knows, perhaps in the intervening months...years....it will get accidentally erased.....or the cameras will be discovered to have been non-operational. Stuff like that has been known to happen here before. People in this Province a getting a bit cynical regarding almost anything surrounding the RCMP. Its a shame too, they used to be a force to be proud of.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 09:28 PM

Another thing -- Taser makes a camera that works with their taser units. It does add to the cost of the taser units, but it provides accountability and validation for cops (or not, as the case may be).

The Sheriff's department here, which has Tasers, also has the cameras. So will our PD, just as they have video cameras in their cars that record pullovers, etc.

Cops are only afraid of cameras if the camera shows bad police work.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 09:37 PM

The following is by NO MEANS an attempt to trivialize the unfortunate events under discussion, but in 2004 a quite prescient movie came out: "The Terminal" directed by Steven Spielberg and starring Tom Hanks as an Eastern European working man stranded in a United States international airport. He has very little English but he's, well, Tom Hanks, so he manages to get himself a job, a girlfriend, and become the bane of the manager of airport security, the underlying theme being that his common humanity triumphs over the odds of insentient bureacracy.

In one scene he pretty much saves another Eastern European man who is trying to bring medicine through customs for his mother. If the pills are what they are supposed to be, i e lifesaving medication for a person, he can't bring them through, but if they are for an animal, he can. Tom as translator does the right thing.

I didn't believe the movie corresponded to real events, but now I think it understated them, and was just a bit over optimistic, alas.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: CET
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 12:57 PM

Damn right, Rapaire. You and just about everyone else who has seen the video had the same reaction - how could these cops possibly have needed the Tasers. They were four to one, all big, strong, fit, trained men, and younger than the victim from what I could see.

Americans might be surprised at the level of rage and disgust this has caused in Canada. Check out the Globe & Mail editorial on this killing. The RCMP are in very deep trouble.

By the way, Rapaire, you have a surprising knowledge of police history in B.C. Were you a Canadian Military Policeman?

Edmund

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 01:21 PM

The RCMP say that the four men have been "re-assigned", whatever the hell that means; Maybe following the Musical Ride with a pushbroom, but still no preliminary charges.
They say that they are calling in the Ontario Provincial Police to investigate. Considering the less than illustrious record of this bunch it hardly enhances confidence in the system!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 03:40 PM

No, I was assigned to the 984th Military Police Company and attached to the Ft. Carson detachment of the 5th MP Group (Criminal Investigation Division) of the US Army. That is to say, I mostly worked in the detective arm of the Military Police. That was AFTER the incident where I and others were charged with police brutality.

I just happen to like reading about the histories of various things in various countries, police work among them.

(The Musical Ride appeared in Colorado Springs, and the 984th went to help control traffic, etc. Two top-notch police units, together -- and what did they talk about? Do you think it was crime prevention? Better detection methods? Nope. They talked about the best way to keep boots and shoes at peak shine.)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:45 AM

100   :>)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:20 AM

Too bad they didn't fork out a little money for some customer relations. People in Vancouver are disgusted and furious that such bad publicity would occur prior to the 2010 Olympics. What does it say about security? How safe will people feel when landing at YVR?

Most people employed by the airlines, the airport and Customs treat you like cattle even when you do speak English. Its very sad that somebody has had to die to call attention to it.

Yes, the RCMP were wrong to taser him but I think it will eventually come out that it was not the taser that killed him. When somebody puts all their weight on the head and neck of a man, what do you think would happen? Combine that with another guy putting weight on his lungs and you don't have much of a chance, whether or not you have been tasered.

The victim was not struggling. His movements after the tasering were involuntary. Its obvious to me that the RCMP are very poorly trained. There are far too many "accidental" deaths in BC as a result of RCMP brutality. I'm sick of it and both the RCMP and the Vancouver police should never be allowed to investigate themselves. Independent inquiries are long overdue.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:10 AM

Independent inquiries should take place every time a cop draws a weapon. That includes batons, Tasers, firearms, blackjacks, saps, and anything else that can kill. A full-scale investigation should happen if a cop fires a weapon even if death or wounding does not result.

Such methods protect both the citizenry AND the cops.

But of course, most places in the US have citizen review boards...and not all of them rubber-stamp police actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: 3refs
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 11:04 AM

I urge you all to look at the video closely.
When the Mounties arrived and confronted Mr.Dziekanski, he seemed to comply, and most importantly, his hands are empty. He moved over as directed, further inside the containment area. Mr.Dziekanski turned towards the glass. Then, he suddenly turned around which caused the officers in view of the camera to quickly jump back and take a more defensive posture. He is almost immediately hit with the taser from his left side. Have a look at Mr.Dziekanski's right hand. You will see that he had grabbed something. You can't really tell what it is, but there are no doubts that whatever it was, wasn't in his hand 5sec before!

What took place after Mr.Dziekanski was secured is of more concern to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 12:06 PM

Mr.Dziekanski was holding a stapler in his hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 12:34 PM

So much for arms length, independent investigation too, even the Coroner assigned to examine this case is an ex-cop.

According to a report that was on the CBC earlier, on average, 18 people a year, die while in police custody in BC. Unlike concern about this Province's image as a result of a possible death of a prospective tourist, arriving at the airport, there's never been much public outcry here about the alarming statistics regarding the usual ongoing casualties.

Perhaps because there are few pictures and the public seems to be able to dismiss those victims as just the usual human flotsom....just some drunken Indian, an annoying loonie street person, another junkie or crackhead....not worth much bother, even in death.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 12:54 PM

Damn right. Shovel 'em under and forget about 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 11:36 AM

As reported on CNN this morning...
There are now special phone numbers to call when you see or are subject to airport abuse by TSA or guards, or if you are stranded on the runway for hours.
People are encouraged to video any or all the abuse that they encounter.

It is hoped that abuse will be less if the abusers know they too are being watched.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 01:36 PM

Interesting if you live in the US Donuel, but that number would have no application in Canada, yet.

Because of international and local public outrage, the BC government has finally announced a full public inquiry into the whole event. Prior to this and despite the fact that the RCMP has a huge bootprint in this province and been involved in some very questionable incidents, the BC government has always maintained that it has had no juisdiction regarding the behavior of the RCMP here. It has always insisted oversight and investigation, regarding the force, was the responsibility of the Feds and the RCMP itself.

Maybe something good will come of it. The cynic in me is still not 100% assured.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:10 PM

I just came from a meeting where the police chief discussed the possibility of the city using Tasers. He said that the policy, which would be STRICTLY enforced, would be the same as that for using any other weapon AND that the Tasers (which have an electronic "logbook" built in) would be reviewed weekly.

He came here from Florida 40 days ago, and he said that the biggest problem they had in Florida was cops Tasering other cops while "grab-assing."

He isn't going to have that here...or other problems. He also said that he has no doubt that a death will occur, probably because the subject was on meth or cocaine.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:18 PM

Point to discuss:

IF the fatality occurs because the person being tazzed is using an ILLEGAL drug, and the use of the tazer is justified by the actions of the person AND the situation, what is the culpability of the person doing the tazzing?


What if the drug was a LEGAL one ( ie, medication prescribed by doctor)?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:27 PM

the answer is in your statement. If use of the taser is justified by the actions of the person and the situation than Id say the use of it is justified..

put it another way with respect to illegal drugs, do the police have the right to shoot to kill someone using illegal drugs?

the drugs may be illegal but its not the death penalty.

(just like the kid in Vancouver who answered the door with a tv remote in his hand -.. the police who were at the door shot and killed him because they thought he had a phaser.) ok thats a different story..
but they went unpunished.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:31 PM

"do the police have the right to shoot to kill someone using illegal drugs?"

BUT, if the reason that the person is killed is because he/she is on illegal drugs ( ie, if not on drugs, the ( justified) use of the tazer would NOT have killed them) is that different? Does the user have any responsibility for his/her use of the illegal drug aggrievating the situation?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:29 PM

If you are using drugs and acting in a manner that is life threatening to yourself or others I see no problem with using whatever means is available to stop you. That includes, in the worst case, shooting you dead.

The legality or illegality of the drugs being used is irrelevant. It is your actions that are causing the problem.

A friend of mine once smoked some grass and spent the next two hours staring at a faucet drip. No problem with his actions.

A local guy used some meth AND PCP and started a fight which ended when he shot a bystander in the stomach. He then got in his car and fled "at a high rate of speed." The police finally cornered him in a deadend street and he rammed two police cars. Finally, he killed his engine and the cops dragged him out while he was trying to restart the car. He's lucky they didn't shoot him, which they would have if they had to. BIG problems with his actions.

I take metformin. If this made me dangerous to be around, the police would be justified in taking the steps necessary to protect the public, themselves, and me. (Yes, I know that metformin doesn't work like that and mania isn't a side effect.)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 05:52 PM

Tasers can kill. They can kill perfectly healthy drug-free people. They should never be used except in circumstances when it would be justified to use a gun if a taser was not available.

Would you disagree with that, bruce?

If it is justified to use a taser, it doesn't become unjustified because someone dies, whether this is because of some circumstances that could make them especially vulnerable, such as a bad heart or some legal or illegal drug in their system, or because they are just unlucky.

But if it is not justified to use a taser, because it wouldn't have been justifiable in the circumsatnces to use a gun, it doesn't become justified just because it turns out that the person targeted does not die. It should still be treated as a criminal and disciplinary offence.

And this kind of reasoning should apply in the case of civilians using tasers. When they are used in criminal activities this should be treated as assault with a deadly weapon.

If someone dies as a result of being shot with a taser who would not have died if they had not been shot with a taser, the taser has to be recognised as having caused that death.

Or would it be right for a thief who shoots a shop worker with a taser to be able to avoid being convicted for murder when the victim dies, just because they turn out to have a mild heart condition that could have made them more at risk?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:36 PM

This would probably have worked better than a taser
a href="http://www.coolstuffexpress.com/store/p/57-Green-Laser-Stars-LaserStars-Holographic-Projector.html">http://www.coolstuffexpress.com/store/p/57-Green-Laser-Stars-LaserStars-Holographic-Projector.html

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:45 PM

Better yet the police should have given the guy a hot dog and soda.

I'm serious!


Does wonders for blood sugar ya know.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 07:43 PM

to make matters worse, a Polish and Russian speaking man who worked at the airport wasn't asked for help although he was fired

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:40 AM

Not just in Canada - here's a pretty shocking story in England that has just emerged into public view. Diabetic in coma shot with Taser out of fear he was suicide bomber

It involved one Nicholas Gaubert, who fell into a diabetic coma on a bus was tasered by police in Yorkshire because he didn't respond to pilic echallenges, being unconscious at the time. He had a rucksack with him and "looked Egyptian".

"Mr Gaubert learnt recently, however, that neither the West Yorkshire force nor any of its officers was to be charged with any offences in relation to the shooting. The two officers on the bus have also not yet faced any internal disciplinary action.

Still I suppose he was lucky he wasn't killed like Jean-Charles Menezes a few days later.

It's impressive the way the authorities have managed to keep this out of the public view for all this time. The British police are pretty good at doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 01:29 PM

Ours just keep digging themselves into a deeper hole.

In an interview, in which he defended the current use of tasers, B.C. Association of Chiefs of Police president, Gord Tomlinson, offered an apology to the family of Mr. Dziekanski, admitted that the public trust had been eroded (duh) and said he welcomed a full review, in order to restore confidence. (yeah, right)

Given the following admission, if past behavior is any indication, a review and recommendations by a civilian authority, that might interfere with how the boys think they should deploy their own toys, seems to have been summarily dismissed or ignored.

It was pointed out to Tomlinson, that a Review by a panel of experts commissioned by the BC government, had already done a Report on the use of Tasers and the Report, with its guidlines was sent to every Police Department in the Province 2 years ago.

The report stated that tasers were not to be used as a means to apprehend passive individuals, nor to be used for multiple hits and that when a person had been tasered, no weight should not be applied to the chest area, as it interfered with the individual's recovery from the tasering.

Tomlinson said he was not aware of the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 01:50 PM

What pisses me off also, is that not only do the police here seem to ignore civillian authority, that report and its recommendations, made for very expensive toilet paper, courtesy of the BC taxpayer.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 02:22 PM

Mets, thanks for continuing to post the news from there. I hadn't posted before mostly because I didn't have much to say; just terribly sad and appalled at such stupidity and thinking about his mom and him having only a wall between them during all of this and not knowing. It's just horrible the way humans treat one another.

This esp. got me: ...tasers were not to be used as a means to apprehend passive individuals, nor to be used for multiple hits and that when a person had been tasered, no weight should not be applied to the chest area, as it interfered with the individual's recovery from the tasering.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 02:42 PM

30 people a year die riht after being tazed.

Last week a teenager here in MD died from being tazed twice.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 03:24 PM

What is still, if not more distressing is discussed in this video clip regarding why no CPR or help was immediately forthcoming, noted as More YVR Taser Concerns

Also note the cameras have started to go astray already.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 03:55 PM

"Zero tolerance" doesn't ever seem to be applied to actions carried out by the police.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 05:31 PM

The christian group across the street believe in 0% for gays by removing them from employment by any means required, political action to deny marraige or civil rights and physical attacks when required. Tolerence itself is deemed the enemy.

I have a bad feeling about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 06:14 PM

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/nunion_dees.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:26 PM

Until every last terrorist is killed we can expect more of the same.

I think the next step will be people being taz3ed in the "privacy of their own homes". Perhpas during a secret search...
The Patriot Act's two most principle constitutional errors are an assault on the Fourth Amendment, and on the First. It permits federal agents to write their own search warrants [under the name "national security letters"] with no judge having examined evidence and agreed that it's likely that the person or thing the government wants to search will reveal evidence of a crime.

Remember that the British government permitted its soldiers to execute self-written search warrants. They called them "writs of assistance," and they were one of the last straws that caused American colonist to rebel. It's bitterly ironic that 230 years later a popularly elected government would authorize its own agents to do the same thing that when a monarchy did it, we fought a war of rebellion in reaction—which we won!

Not only that, but the Patriot Act makes it a felony for the recipient of a self-written search warrant to reveal it to anyone. The Patriot Act allows [agents] to serve self-written search warrants on financial institutions, and the Intelligence Authorization Act of 2004 in Orwellian language defines that to include in addition to banks, also delis, bodegas, restaurants, hotels, doctors' offices, lawyers' offices, telecoms, HMOs, hospitals, casinos, jewelry dealers, automobile dealers, boat dealers, and that great financial institution to which we all would repose our fortunes, the post office.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:48 PM

How to get tazered in your car... just follow orders.

video http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/11/23/intv.tasered.speeder.speaks.cnn

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 11:24 PM

Abuse of power by police forces (or certain individuals in police forces) has been a problem for a long, long time in just about every society I know of. It's not a problem that can ever afford to go ignored. I've witnessed it firsthand myself back in the 70s. What is most disturbing is when a supposedly responsible civil government, in the name of "national security" starts legislating away the constitutionally enshrined civil rights of its citizens. Then it is time for that government to clean up its act fast or get tossed out of office.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 07:45 AM

This is another recent tragic result. A mentally ill man tasered and nearly dies in Halifax. Then he is taken to hospital but released back to police and dies in jail 30 hours later.
The spin is that it can't be the taser because of the time frame. The Halifax police have a video of the incident but have no interest in showing it to the public.
This illustrious force, a few years back, shot and killed a man for striking a squad car with a tentpole and were able to justify the action.
http://www.hfxnews.ca/index.cfm?sid=83263&sc=89

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 12:31 PM

Yes, well, those squad cars cost money, you know...we can't lose sight of what is sacred now, can we?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 07:02 PM

One of the problems is that to recover from a taser, no pressure can be exerted to the chest or back.

Seems like the police are overlooking a not so minor detail.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 12:33 PM

And I am qyuite sure that the instructions given to police officers formusing tasers will include that kind of information, if only because the people who write those instructions need to cover their backs. Which means that police not following those instructions are in breach of discipline, regardless of whether that causes a member of the public to die.

That kind of thing was what I meant by the failure to apply "zero tolerance" to members of police forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bankley
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 03:17 PM

They should have given Mr. Dziekanski a cigarette and a light. Screw the no-smoking laws. 3 Canadians in 6 weeks have died after being tasered. The UN has just declared that tasers are a form of torture. Then again, tasers don't torture people, other people do....

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 04:59 PM

" . . . it would have been impossible to take this man to an office with a telephone and arrange for a Polish Translator to talk to the man. I believe that all that could have been accomplished within the first hour."

It would take about 15 minutes to find a person who speaks both languages. Page it out over the PA system.

A woman I know had a baby in Edmonton. About three hours after delivery, a nurse entered her room and asked if she could speak Italian. She said she could. The hospital needed someone to translate to English for a gal who'd just been brought in by ambulance. She went.

International airports are filled with people, many of whom speak more than English. As someone mentioned above, why the heck was this ppro fellow allowed to 'wander' the airport for 10 hours and receive no help?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:48 PM

Why? Total bloody incompetance and lack of basic commonsense or humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 07:07 PM

Something I've recently learned:

Convicts are teaching other convicts what to do if Tasered: drop and roll around.

The rolling around dislodges the Taser dart. That's why you would see cops pulling the Taser trigger several times until they get handcuffs on the culprit. Each pull of the trigger puts another jolt through the wires to which the dart is attached.

(Gad, the things I learn in life....)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 07:32 AM

Well, I heard they killed another one today...





I used to be in a Medieval recreation group.

I know how to knit a chain mail shirt - interlocking metal rings...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 07:46 AM

BTW, "The Terminal" WAS BASED on real events - the guy was trapped in the terminal for months.. and eventually went insane, unlike Tom Hanks...

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:33 AM

Months? He was Mehran Karimi Nasseri, and it was in fact eighteen years. See here for the story.

The people in the Paris terminal weren't to blame, they seem to have behaved quite well - it was the bureaucracy outside. Maybe it was lucky he wasn't stuck in a Canadian airport with trigger happy Mounties on duty.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:37 AM

I meant years, sorry, too many Public Service flashbacks in the other thread.... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bankley
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 09:01 AM

my son, Andrew, worked in 'security' at the Van. Airport for awhile... that was about 7 years ago,(before 9/11).... he said that the attitude of his colleagues was arrogant bordering on racist, and that intimidation was common.... esp.toward people who were arriving as refugees. He would inform the arrivals, whenever possible, of their right to file a claim for refugee status while at the terminal.. and would just act in a humane manner, as these folks had left everything behind and were in a strange, new world.... many Roma were coming in from Eastern Europe, at the time, to escape persecution, once again... These 'travellers' were grateful for the kindness shown.. while his co-workers gave him ( and them ) a hard time.... he left that job after 2 years.... basically couldn't handle the bullshit.... too bad, one less real person at the gates of 'True North'

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 01:21 PM

bankley, your son shared a similar experience to myself, when I was at YVR. I said I had hoped that it would have improved over the intervening years, but it sounds as if it was business as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 01:29 PM

bankly, Your son is to be commended.
Its hard unforgiving work just to be nice and civil to people.
As a kid the condemnation came in the form of name calling like : niggar lover, jewish mother fucker, ad infinitum

but now as an an adult the code words are smoother and the retribution more insidious with a deluge of anonymous complaints to authorities and 2 AM telephone hang ups.

Tribal mentality comes out strongest in a climate of fear.
Sure every street has two sides but the first thing hateful greedy people forget is that there is only one world.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 02:04 PM

"A climate of fear" - including a climate of fear of losing your job if you stick out against the licensed hate-mongers, in a situation where workers in a de-unionised workforce are frighteningly vulnerable.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bankley
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 02:28 PM

well, thanks, I'm proud of him.... he landed that job because of 3 yrs. service in the army... so, he's been around and is very aware.

There seems to be a lot of bad apples in the barrel. Rapaire's previous input was much appreciated. It's nice to know that there's still good ones out there, doing what they're really supposed to do. Protect and Serve.... the people....

besides, we're all immigrants. "Most of the ones that have been here longer don't know the name of the ship that brought their ancestors over".... got that line from a Mohawk lady.... R.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bankley
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 05:36 PM

In related news: I've heard that a small airborne drone version of the Taser is set to be produced and sold internationally next year. It'll be able to send 50,000 volt bursts into crowds or at any 'suspect' on the ground. Doesn't sound like these saucers will 'come in peace'.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 05:42 PM

I was looking at a nature programme on TV, and they were traquillising a lion to transport them or tocarry out a meducal examination. And it occurred to me that if anyone were to propose using Tasers on animals, they'd risk being torn limb from limb by outraged members of the public. And quite right too.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 06:52 PM

"2 AM telephone hang ups"

Ah - I finally snapped - got 'message answering' - the wankers who hang up as soon as I answer are happy, and now I'm happy too! :-)

I suspected that somebody was ringing just to check if I was at home, or 'somewhere else' - and I just got tired of killing nyself to get to the phone in a rush, only for some stalker, or telemarketing wanker!

Lots of telemarketers connect the call, and then play you music (whereupon _I_ would hang up!), or just just give you silence till they get around to allocating a person to talk... now they just waste their money, as the line just hangs up if they don't talk... :-)

For $6 a month, I get to tell people:

"This phone number has been registered with the Australia Govt 'Do Not Call' Register since inception. Don't bother to leave a message, as I won't listen to it. If you want to contact me, you'll just have to find another way, sorry."

All my friends have my mobile number, and the only 2 messages left so far have been both the recent Liberal and Labour party 'personal phone calls'... We have preferential voting in Australia, so I didn't vote '1' for EITHER... :-)

I mainly use the phone for dialup anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:13 PM

Fox news had their typical argument over tazer use.
The pro guy compared them with shoes which kill a lot more people than tazers.
The moderator made fun of the UN for declaring that tazers are a form of torture.
And the anti guy was just told to shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 09:08 PM

Tasers should only be used in situations where deadly force would also be appropriate.

Period.

If someone who is Tasered shows no effect from the Taser, another officer would be allowed to shoot to kill.

Period.

In that order.

And each and every use of a Taser or a firearms should be subject to strict, impartial scrutiny with punishment or praise delivered as appropriate.

Period.

All police forces must (not should) be subject to civilian oversight, just as the military must be.

Period.

For me to pay taxes to support forces which are allowed to ride roughshod over me and/or my Rights is ludicruous, even tyrannical. More than that, it's just plain stupid on my part.

Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 01:54 PM

The moderator made fun of the UN for declaring that tazers are a form of torture.

Like waterboarding and other methods of torture employed by the USA. I imagine they'd say the same about pulling out fingernails and rape. After all, nobody dies from having their fingernails pulled out or being raped in the course of punitive interrogation.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:16 PM

it probably would have taken less than 15mins to find another polish speaker.. One of the airport employees who speaks, Slovak, Polish Russian was wandering in the offices at the time. He wasnt asked to interpret..and later when he commented to a reporter that he could have served as an interpreter he was fired.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:50 PM

I had a month free trial of Foxtel cable.

Fox News is part of the 'standard package'.

I wish it wasn't.

I watched it a bit.

I wished I hadn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 11:57 PM

Apparently cops all over the world are using the term, "excited delirium" as an excuse for using the taser gun.

Since when do cops diagnose? It isn't even an accepted medical diagnosis. Its just more double-speak intended to deceive. This has gone too far.

I'm sorry so many have died uneccessarily.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 09:20 AM

I've been excited and I've been delirious, but never at the same time.

Cops may have more education that you think...our last police chief had a PhD and our current one has both an MBA and a MS. About half the force has a BA, and the city helps with tuition costs for all employees who want to get more education. It doesn't pay to hire uneducated cops -- or ditch diggers, for that matter.

Maybe this town is the exception, I don't know. But it does have a pretty good police force and fire department (and a DARNED good library!).

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 11:08 AM

No matter how well educated they are Rap, the next time I need a medical diagnosis, I won't go to a Police Station. The term" excited delirium" is only found to be used as a cause of death, while in police custody. As dianavan said, it is neither a term recognized by the AMA, nor by nor psychologists.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 11:13 AM

Not only is your town an exception but so are you for your wit and wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 11:18 AM

Excited delirium certainly sounds like a killer. "He died from death." Yeah, it all has such a neat ring to it, dontcha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 01:47 PM

Actually, a lot of money in janitorial expenses could be saved in tazing immigrants in airports. You'd have to find one that was all bundled up in woolens/tweeds or something. Taze him/her and watch them squirm around on the floor. Then go find another dirty spot, wait for the right moment and shoot.
             On a busy travel day, one man with a tazer could clean up, literally.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 07:41 AM

The RCMP bras say that the famous four have been re-assigned to other "FRONT LINE DUTIES." They didn't say where they are working now but I fear that they are still packing weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bankley
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 08:39 AM

probably be sent to control the 'Indians'.... starting with elders and kids...

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 09:47 AM

I think that I'd like to die from an "excited delirium." Not being tased or shot or anything like that, just being deliriously excited or excitedly delirious.

Frankly, I don't think that the citizens here would stand for the cops ripping around, shooting and tasing and such. The last time they shot someone was two years ago, when a pair of cops went to pick up a guy who had violated probation by using drugs. He burst out of a bedroom, shooting; the cops returned fire. Two cops bruised by taking 9mm slugs in the body armor, one bad guy dead with two .45 bullets in him (one from each cop it turned out). The cops were immediately placed on paid Administrative Leave while a citizen/police review board investigated the incident. While on Admin Leave the cops were required to receive counseling to prevent PTSD and other things. They're currently back on duty, their records clean. Oh, and the baddie's girl friend is doing time because she distracted the cops so that her boyfriend could come out shooting.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 10:27 AM

That's interesting! Where do the cops use .45s?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 09:02 PM

So since this thread has revived, do we know what killed the unfortunated Mr. Dziekanski, the taser or the knee to the neck? Have there been any important rulings, or procedure changes?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: meself
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 11:32 PM

There is an inquiry going on right now. The first of the cops involved testified today. His testimony was pretty lame. He said that Mr D. was somehow "non-compliant" - and then that he (the cop) feared for his safety when D. picked up a stapler and turned toward them.

But to answer your question about the actual cause of death - I can't answer that; don't know if the coroner did or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 08:11 AM

The cops are getting caught up in their lies, I hope they all pay the price for this senseless killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 03:05 PM

It is sad to see a Canadian icon like the RCMP circle the wagons and dispute what is in plain view on the video tape. They got new rules that restrict taser use recently but these four were let off from any criminal resposability. The inquiry does not have the teeth to punish them, but still they insist that they responded in a proper manner. No apology or remorse at all from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 03:51 PM

The shorter term incident involving use of force by RCMP should not overshadow the disgraceful behaviour of the Border Services Agency employees and their many many hours of indifference which created the situation.

Their PR people apologized for them - big deal costs nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 10:58 PM

Agree herec! There is enough shit on the floor to stick to a lot of shoes! Nobody is rushing forth to clean it up though. The national Association of Chiefs of Police today stated that nobody was ever shown to have been killed by a taser. With idiotic statements like that I question if they are qualified to remain in their positions? All they do is repeat tripe from the manufacturer. I believe that a taser is a weapon that can save lives if used in situations that otherwise would require a gun. That is the only time it should be used and the officer should be held accountable as if he had used a firearm.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 10:42 AM

What cracks me up is that in mitigation efforts the brass said they were developing new rules. Their employees really need a written rule that says "Behave in an ethical and humane manner and not with callous indifference" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 02:27 PM

"Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)"

            If they'd tasered him in a bus station it wouldn't have been news.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:06 AM

The testimony of the four RCMP continues with them still insisting on a view if events different from what is obvious in the video.

HUH?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: 3refs
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:36 AM

"The cops are getting caught up in their lies, I hope they all pay the price for this senseless killing."
When it comes to defending suspect actions by most police services, I'd be the last one in line.
I'm sure most of you all know, the most unreliable evidence that can be presented in a court of law is eyewitness testimony! The fact that these officers are not telling quite the same story, leads me to believe that they haven't sat down with each other to get their stories straight.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 10:07 AM

This is a national disgrace. This and sending off Mr. Khadr. The security services in Canada (my home and native land) have had the free run of the place forever.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 11:51 AM

CTV Story Dec 2008

Well, there was an autopsy. It did not find a conclusive reason for his death. They found no drugs, no alcohol in Mr. Dziekanski's system, some sign of long term alcohol abuse. There is also no mention of finding that he died from unnatural restraint (the knee to the neck) or the multiple taser shots.

All we've got are the stories, and they tell a sad tale of pretty much everyone in the case doing something, but not enough. Mother saved up money to bring son over. Son was very apprehensive about flying and cancelled at least one flight. Mother told son misinformation about where she'd meet him. Mother made it to airport, but was misinformed that no one was left there, and she departed.

Just incredibly sad, and incredibly unneccesary. The cops were just cops, they could have been better, but they interpreted what they saw in front of them without putting a lot of thought or concern into it. They didn't see a badly confused, lonely man with no communication skills, they saw someone taking his frustrations out physically. They didn't imagine a lonely son, they saw a man holding a stapler out as some kind of weapon.

Everyone in the story acted without much foresight, without backup plans, without any imagination.

It didn't have to happen, and all but one of the actors have to live with the consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 12:11 PM

"His mother had incorrectly told him she would meet him by the baggage carousels, which are actually behind a security barrier."

So what? He had expressed and displayed his confusion to the people in charge.

That article is sanitized from the hearsay I've received. I've heard stories that interpreters refused to come in off hours or some such thing. I've heard his father made telephone inquiries. I'd have to look it up - those facts could be off - but nevertheless to pawn any of this indifference off and upon the mother (off a dead son) is not an appropriate tone for that article to take.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 12:18 PM

I know bits and pieces won't help and may blur the truth, but here's a tidbit:

"A Vancouver airport employee who offered to help interpret for Robert Dziekanski has testified that his help was turned down by airport employees less than an hour before the Polish immigrant died."

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b49_1234492238

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 12:33 PM

I don't see any support for those two pieces of hearsay I just mentioned. But there is an detailed account of the developing problem here
.

"Border officers knew Robert Dziekanski didn't speak English soon after he arrived at Vancouver's airport and would have had access to a translator had they decided to call one, a public inquiry heard Tuesday. . . The Canadian Border Services Agency and the airport faced heavy criticism after Mr. Dziekanski's death in October of 2007, specifically for not calling a translator to help the man. . . .

Monica Kullar, one of the first border officers to deal with Mr. Dziekanski in Vancouver, told the inquiry that he was sweating and speaking rapidly in Polish as he tried to fill out a form for customs.

Ms. Kullar said Mr. Dziekanski calmed down and was courteous and non-threatening as he finished filling out the document and moved on.

She marked off a section on his form that indicated he had a language barrier, which would have been seen by other officers who encountered him in the hours before his death. . . . "

Maybe it was a tragic convergence of errors but it looks more likely that callous indifference was the principal cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 01:08 PM

(I deal with those customs and immigration people a couple of times per year and no I don't like their attitudes and yes I have a resulting bias against them - similar to but probably worse than Metchosin, far above- but:)

This item as a ten hour time line to make it truly unique.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: 3refs
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 07:52 AM

I think a systematic failure best describes this sad affair, and if we just keep pointing the finger at individuals pretty soon we'll be pointing it at the manufactures of the taser, then the shipper, then the receiver. It's always blame, blame, blame instead of fix, fix, fix!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:47 AM

"pretty soon we'll be pointing it at the manufactures of the taser"

They are very much to blame as they continue to make stupid claims about the safety of their device, that seems to get included into the police training policies.
3refs, to begin a fix people must be open in admitting that there is a problem. Most of these bastards insist that they did nothing wrong, and want to continue down the same path.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:02 AM

Poland wanted to launch it's own investigation into the tasering under a mutual cooperation treaty whereupon Canada unilaterally suspended the treaty.

Laser Probe Blocked

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Haruo
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:52 PM

Oh dear, first I've seen of this thread or this incident, and all I can say is (as a US citizen who has been to Canada many times) I have almost always had a much better experience with the officials on the Canadian side of Customs than with those on this side coming back, let alone with TSA people on domestic US flights a couple times.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 01:08 PM

Haruo it might be a Vancouver thing more than a Canadian thing. (My home and native city.)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Haruo
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 01:28 PM

Well, I'm in Seattle, and while I go to Victoria (Sidney, actually) by ferry more often than to Vancouver, in neither case would it normally be by air, so maybe its an airports vs surface entry issue in part.