BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Haruo
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 01:28 PM

Well, I'm in Seattle, and while I go to Victoria (Sidney, actually) by ferry more often than to Vancouver, in neither case would it normally be by air, so maybe its an airports vs surface entry issue in part.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 01:08 PM

Haruo it might be a Vancouver thing more than a Canadian thing. (My home and native city.)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Haruo
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:52 PM

Oh dear, first I've seen of this thread or this incident, and all I can say is (as a US citizen who has been to Canada many times) I have almost always had a much better experience with the officials on the Canadian side of Customs than with those on this side coming back, let alone with TSA people on domestic US flights a couple times.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:02 AM

Poland wanted to launch it's own investigation into the tasering under a mutual cooperation treaty whereupon Canada unilaterally suspended the treaty.

Laser Probe Blocked

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:47 AM

"pretty soon we'll be pointing it at the manufactures of the taser"

They are very much to blame as they continue to make stupid claims about the safety of their device, that seems to get included into the police training policies.
3refs, to begin a fix people must be open in admitting that there is a problem. Most of these bastards insist that they did nothing wrong, and want to continue down the same path.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: 3refs
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 07:52 AM

I think a systematic failure best describes this sad affair, and if we just keep pointing the finger at individuals pretty soon we'll be pointing it at the manufactures of the taser, then the shipper, then the receiver. It's always blame, blame, blame instead of fix, fix, fix!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 01:08 PM

(I deal with those customs and immigration people a couple of times per year and no I don't like their attitudes and yes I have a resulting bias against them - similar to but probably worse than Metchosin, far above- but:)

This item as a ten hour time line to make it truly unique.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 12:33 PM

I don't see any support for those two pieces of hearsay I just mentioned. But there is an detailed account of the developing problem here
.

"Border officers knew Robert Dziekanski didn't speak English soon after he arrived at Vancouver's airport and would have had access to a translator had they decided to call one, a public inquiry heard Tuesday. . . The Canadian Border Services Agency and the airport faced heavy criticism after Mr. Dziekanski's death in October of 2007, specifically for not calling a translator to help the man. . . .

Monica Kullar, one of the first border officers to deal with Mr. Dziekanski in Vancouver, told the inquiry that he was sweating and speaking rapidly in Polish as he tried to fill out a form for customs.

Ms. Kullar said Mr. Dziekanski calmed down and was courteous and non-threatening as he finished filling out the document and moved on.

She marked off a section on his form that indicated he had a language barrier, which would have been seen by other officers who encountered him in the hours before his death. . . . "

Maybe it was a tragic convergence of errors but it looks more likely that callous indifference was the principal cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 12:18 PM

I know bits and pieces won't help and may blur the truth, but here's a tidbit:

"A Vancouver airport employee who offered to help interpret for Robert Dziekanski has testified that his help was turned down by airport employees less than an hour before the Polish immigrant died."

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b49_1234492238

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 12:11 PM

"His mother had incorrectly told him she would meet him by the baggage carousels, which are actually behind a security barrier."

So what? He had expressed and displayed his confusion to the people in charge.

That article is sanitized from the hearsay I've received. I've heard stories that interpreters refused to come in off hours or some such thing. I've heard his father made telephone inquiries. I'd have to look it up - those facts could be off - but nevertheless to pawn any of this indifference off and upon the mother (off a dead son) is not an appropriate tone for that article to take.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 11:51 AM

CTV Story Dec 2008

Well, there was an autopsy. It did not find a conclusive reason for his death. They found no drugs, no alcohol in Mr. Dziekanski's system, some sign of long term alcohol abuse. There is also no mention of finding that he died from unnatural restraint (the knee to the neck) or the multiple taser shots.

All we've got are the stories, and they tell a sad tale of pretty much everyone in the case doing something, but not enough. Mother saved up money to bring son over. Son was very apprehensive about flying and cancelled at least one flight. Mother told son misinformation about where she'd meet him. Mother made it to airport, but was misinformed that no one was left there, and she departed.

Just incredibly sad, and incredibly unneccesary. The cops were just cops, they could have been better, but they interpreted what they saw in front of them without putting a lot of thought or concern into it. They didn't see a badly confused, lonely man with no communication skills, they saw someone taking his frustrations out physically. They didn't imagine a lonely son, they saw a man holding a stapler out as some kind of weapon.

Everyone in the story acted without much foresight, without backup plans, without any imagination.

It didn't have to happen, and all but one of the actors have to live with the consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 10:07 AM

This is a national disgrace. This and sending off Mr. Khadr. The security services in Canada (my home and native land) have had the free run of the place forever.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: 3refs
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:36 AM

"The cops are getting caught up in their lies, I hope they all pay the price for this senseless killing."
When it comes to defending suspect actions by most police services, I'd be the last one in line.
I'm sure most of you all know, the most unreliable evidence that can be presented in a court of law is eyewitness testimony! The fact that these officers are not telling quite the same story, leads me to believe that they haven't sat down with each other to get their stories straight.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:06 AM

The testimony of the four RCMP continues with them still insisting on a view if events different from what is obvious in the video.

HUH?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 02:27 PM

"Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)"

            If they'd tasered him in a bus station it wouldn't have been news.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 10:42 AM

What cracks me up is that in mitigation efforts the brass said they were developing new rules. Their employees really need a written rule that says "Behave in an ethical and humane manner and not with callous indifference" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 10:58 PM

Agree herec! There is enough shit on the floor to stick to a lot of shoes! Nobody is rushing forth to clean it up though. The national Association of Chiefs of Police today stated that nobody was ever shown to have been killed by a taser. With idiotic statements like that I question if they are qualified to remain in their positions? All they do is repeat tripe from the manufacturer. I believe that a taser is a weapon that can save lives if used in situations that otherwise would require a gun. That is the only time it should be used and the officer should be held accountable as if he had used a firearm.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 03:51 PM

The shorter term incident involving use of force by RCMP should not overshadow the disgraceful behaviour of the Border Services Agency employees and their many many hours of indifference which created the situation.

Their PR people apologized for them - big deal costs nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 03:05 PM

It is sad to see a Canadian icon like the RCMP circle the wagons and dispute what is in plain view on the video tape. They got new rules that restrict taser use recently but these four were let off from any criminal resposability. The inquiry does not have the teeth to punish them, but still they insist that they responded in a proper manner. No apology or remorse at all from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 08:11 AM

The cops are getting caught up in their lies, I hope they all pay the price for this senseless killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)
From: meself
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 11:32 PM

There is an inquiry going on right now. The first of the cops involved testified today. His testimony was pretty lame. He said that Mr D. was somehow "non-compliant" - and then that he (the cop) feared for his safety when D. picked up a stapler and turned toward them.

But to answer your question about the actual cause of death - I can't answer that; don't know if the coroner did or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 09:02 PM

So since this thread has revived, do we know what killed the unfortunated Mr. Dziekanski, the taser or the knee to the neck? Have there been any important rulings, or procedure changes?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 10:27 AM

That's interesting! Where do the cops use .45s?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 09:47 AM

I think that I'd like to die from an "excited delirium." Not being tased or shot or anything like that, just being deliriously excited or excitedly delirious.

Frankly, I don't think that the citizens here would stand for the cops ripping around, shooting and tasing and such. The last time they shot someone was two years ago, when a pair of cops went to pick up a guy who had violated probation by using drugs. He burst out of a bedroom, shooting; the cops returned fire. Two cops bruised by taking 9mm slugs in the body armor, one bad guy dead with two .45 bullets in him (one from each cop it turned out). The cops were immediately placed on paid Administrative Leave while a citizen/police review board investigated the incident. While on Admin Leave the cops were required to receive counseling to prevent PTSD and other things. They're currently back on duty, their records clean. Oh, and the baddie's girl friend is doing time because she distracted the cops so that her boyfriend could come out shooting.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bankley
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 08:39 AM

probably be sent to control the 'Indians'.... starting with elders and kids...

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 07:41 AM

The RCMP bras say that the famous four have been re-assigned to other "FRONT LINE DUTIES." They didn't say where they are working now but I fear that they are still packing weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 01:47 PM

Actually, a lot of money in janitorial expenses could be saved in tazing immigrants in airports. You'd have to find one that was all bundled up in woolens/tweeds or something. Taze him/her and watch them squirm around on the floor. Then go find another dirty spot, wait for the right moment and shoot.
             On a busy travel day, one man with a tazer could clean up, literally.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 11:18 AM

Excited delirium certainly sounds like a killer. "He died from death." Yeah, it all has such a neat ring to it, dontcha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 11:13 AM

Not only is your town an exception but so are you for your wit and wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 11:08 AM

No matter how well educated they are Rap, the next time I need a medical diagnosis, I won't go to a Police Station. The term" excited delirium" is only found to be used as a cause of death, while in police custody. As dianavan said, it is neither a term recognized by the AMA, nor by nor psychologists.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 09:20 AM

I've been excited and I've been delirious, but never at the same time.

Cops may have more education that you think...our last police chief had a PhD and our current one has both an MBA and a MS. About half the force has a BA, and the city helps with tuition costs for all employees who want to get more education. It doesn't pay to hire uneducated cops -- or ditch diggers, for that matter.

Maybe this town is the exception, I don't know. But it does have a pretty good police force and fire department (and a DARNED good library!).

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 11:57 PM

Apparently cops all over the world are using the term, "excited delirium" as an excuse for using the taser gun.

Since when do cops diagnose? It isn't even an accepted medical diagnosis. Its just more double-speak intended to deceive. This has gone too far.

I'm sorry so many have died uneccessarily.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:50 PM

I had a month free trial of Foxtel cable.

Fox News is part of the 'standard package'.

I wish it wasn't.

I watched it a bit.

I wished I hadn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:16 PM

it probably would have taken less than 15mins to find another polish speaker.. One of the airport employees who speaks, Slovak, Polish Russian was wandering in the offices at the time. He wasnt asked to interpret..and later when he commented to a reporter that he could have served as an interpreter he was fired.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 01:54 PM

The moderator made fun of the UN for declaring that tazers are a form of torture.

Like waterboarding and other methods of torture employed by the USA. I imagine they'd say the same about pulling out fingernails and rape. After all, nobody dies from having their fingernails pulled out or being raped in the course of punitive interrogation.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 09:08 PM

Tasers should only be used in situations where deadly force would also be appropriate.

Period.

If someone who is Tasered shows no effect from the Taser, another officer would be allowed to shoot to kill.

Period.

In that order.

And each and every use of a Taser or a firearms should be subject to strict, impartial scrutiny with punishment or praise delivered as appropriate.

Period.

All police forces must (not should) be subject to civilian oversight, just as the military must be.

Period.

For me to pay taxes to support forces which are allowed to ride roughshod over me and/or my Rights is ludicruous, even tyrannical. More than that, it's just plain stupid on my part.

Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:13 PM

Fox news had their typical argument over tazer use.
The pro guy compared them with shoes which kill a lot more people than tazers.
The moderator made fun of the UN for declaring that tazers are a form of torture.
And the anti guy was just told to shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 06:52 PM

"2 AM telephone hang ups"

Ah - I finally snapped - got 'message answering' - the wankers who hang up as soon as I answer are happy, and now I'm happy too! :-)

I suspected that somebody was ringing just to check if I was at home, or 'somewhere else' - and I just got tired of killing nyself to get to the phone in a rush, only for some stalker, or telemarketing wanker!

Lots of telemarketers connect the call, and then play you music (whereupon _I_ would hang up!), or just just give you silence till they get around to allocating a person to talk... now they just waste their money, as the line just hangs up if they don't talk... :-)

For $6 a month, I get to tell people:

"This phone number has been registered with the Australia Govt 'Do Not Call' Register since inception. Don't bother to leave a message, as I won't listen to it. If you want to contact me, you'll just have to find another way, sorry."

All my friends have my mobile number, and the only 2 messages left so far have been both the recent Liberal and Labour party 'personal phone calls'... We have preferential voting in Australia, so I didn't vote '1' for EITHER... :-)

I mainly use the phone for dialup anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 05:42 PM

I was looking at a nature programme on TV, and they were traquillising a lion to transport them or tocarry out a meducal examination. And it occurred to me that if anyone were to propose using Tasers on animals, they'd risk being torn limb from limb by outraged members of the public. And quite right too.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bankley
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 05:36 PM

In related news: I've heard that a small airborne drone version of the Taser is set to be produced and sold internationally next year. It'll be able to send 50,000 volt bursts into crowds or at any 'suspect' on the ground. Doesn't sound like these saucers will 'come in peace'.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bankley
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 02:28 PM

well, thanks, I'm proud of him.... he landed that job because of 3 yrs. service in the army... so, he's been around and is very aware.

There seems to be a lot of bad apples in the barrel. Rapaire's previous input was much appreciated. It's nice to know that there's still good ones out there, doing what they're really supposed to do. Protect and Serve.... the people....

besides, we're all immigrants. "Most of the ones that have been here longer don't know the name of the ship that brought their ancestors over".... got that line from a Mohawk lady.... R.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 02:04 PM

"A climate of fear" - including a climate of fear of losing your job if you stick out against the licensed hate-mongers, in a situation where workers in a de-unionised workforce are frighteningly vulnerable.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 01:29 PM

bankly, Your son is to be commended.
Its hard unforgiving work just to be nice and civil to people.
As a kid the condemnation came in the form of name calling like : niggar lover, jewish mother fucker, ad infinitum

but now as an an adult the code words are smoother and the retribution more insidious with a deluge of anonymous complaints to authorities and 2 AM telephone hang ups.

Tribal mentality comes out strongest in a climate of fear.
Sure every street has two sides but the first thing hateful greedy people forget is that there is only one world.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 01:21 PM

bankley, your son shared a similar experience to myself, when I was at YVR. I said I had hoped that it would have improved over the intervening years, but it sounds as if it was business as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bankley
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 09:01 AM

my son, Andrew, worked in 'security' at the Van. Airport for awhile... that was about 7 years ago,(before 9/11).... he said that the attitude of his colleagues was arrogant bordering on racist, and that intimidation was common.... esp.toward people who were arriving as refugees. He would inform the arrivals, whenever possible, of their right to file a claim for refugee status while at the terminal.. and would just act in a humane manner, as these folks had left everything behind and were in a strange, new world.... many Roma were coming in from Eastern Europe, at the time, to escape persecution, once again... These 'travellers' were grateful for the kindness shown.. while his co-workers gave him ( and them ) a hard time.... he left that job after 2 years.... basically couldn't handle the bullshit.... too bad, one less real person at the gates of 'True North'

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:37 AM

I meant years, sorry, too many Public Service flashbacks in the other thread.... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:33 AM

Months? He was Mehran Karimi Nasseri, and it was in fact eighteen years. See here for the story.

The people in the Paris terminal weren't to blame, they seem to have behaved quite well - it was the bureaucracy outside. Maybe it was lucky he wasn't stuck in a Canadian airport with trigger happy Mounties on duty.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 07:46 AM

BTW, "The Terminal" WAS BASED on real events - the guy was trapped in the terminal for months.. and eventually went insane, unlike Tom Hanks...

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 07:32 AM

Well, I heard they killed another one today...





I used to be in a Medieval recreation group.

I know how to knit a chain mail shirt - interlocking metal rings...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 07:07 PM

Something I've recently learned:

Convicts are teaching other convicts what to do if Tasered: drop and roll around.

The rolling around dislodges the Taser dart. That's why you would see cops pulling the Taser trigger several times until they get handcuffs on the culprit. Each pull of the trigger puts another jolt through the wires to which the dart is attached.

(Gad, the things I learn in life....)