BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?

Subject: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 02:36 PM

Would one of you DIY experts from the States kindly refresh my memory regarding the trade name of these threaded metal inserts which have a coarse external thread for screwing into sheetrock, and a internal tapped hole which takes a drywall screw ? You use them to fix shelving, loudspeakers, etc to sheetrock walls.

I am running low on the stock I brought over to the UK and need to get some more.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 02:42 PM

I use molly/toggle bolts. Like this

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: jeffp
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 03:13 PM

Don't know a brand name, but they're generically called drywall anchors.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 03:25 PM

Yes, there is also this , but I wouldn't hang anything heavy, like a shelf, with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: gnomad
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 03:25 PM

Not sure precisely which ones you have in mind, but this page of cavity fixings may be of help. I have found the company pretty dependable on deliveries too.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 03:29 PM

These are fairly common EZ products

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 03:49 PM

Hi Murry, are you hanging domestic guitars from the neck until dead?
Hope you're playing them before killing 'em. Hope that idea wen well.

I believe you're looking for toggle bolts/screws or hollow wall anchors. The toggle is stonger IMO but that also depends on the thickness of the sheetrock (5/8") at least if it's more than a hanging guitar, unless you place some sort of backing plate behind or in front of the sheetrock or a stringer, say a vertical length of wide strapping that you'll then attach the shelving to, that'll take & spread the pressure of the area of the toggle. You are always best going into the wall studs but I'm sure you already know that.
Good luck, you ever coming back over for a sing & a visit, don't make me come over there.

All my best
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 03:50 PM

Thanks for all the replies.

art, toggle bolts are undoubtedly the strongest drywall fixing, but IMHO they are a pain in the ass to install, especially if you have to remove the fixture temporarily.

gnomad, these Screwfix fixings may well be what I need, but previous experience of British inserts is that the insert has a blind hole, whereas what I need is an insert which will accept any length of screw, and which will allow the screw to pass all the way through.
That said, it looks as though these might indeed fit the bill,

The beauty of the American inserts is that they accept a coarse threaded drywall screw of any length, and bobad has come up with what I was looking for.

E-Z fixings, how could I have forgotten...now begins the search for a British stockist

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 03:59 PM

lost my cookie there ...

Hi Barry, how are you doing, yes of course I am coming back and I am counting on you to arrange a singaround. btw I have just taken delivery of a beautiful Martin HD28S I love it to bits ...

anyway, sheetrock fixings. these threaded inserts are actually amazingly strong, and as long as they are installed properly (correct size pilot hole in the sheetrock, NEVER just screw them in with the pointy bit I always break that off before I insert them ) then they will carry far more weight than you might think

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:04 PM

I can vouch for their capacity as well, I used them to hang shelves in a doctor's office and they served just fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:22 PM

Murray! Nice to *see* you! Did you follow their Contact link? You can email the company HERE for a list of folks in the UK who sell their product.

Take care,

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Tweed
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:25 PM

If you can't find any over there Murray PM me. I got a drawer full.
Bobad's right, the twist n locks will hold a lot. I got a shelf in the kitchen with a cast iron dutch oven, skillets, a griddle and assorted pots, lids, coffee machine etc. hanging from it and it hasn't budged for three years.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: gnu
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:53 PM

Screw that. All of them thar riggins hold "a shitload" until the last turd and that's when the shit hits the fan. If it is a light load, great. If not, OR, if it might not be a light load someday, applied by you or anyone after you, why bother? Attach to the supporting structure with solid, load bearing hardware. Usually cheaper and far better.

Of course, I am an engineer and we all know how daft engineers are. Or, so I am told... day in and day out by people who don't stamp, sign and date their work.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Tweed
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 05:10 PM

I know about you engineers gnu. You won't put the seal on anything that might fall off the wall before Armageddon. ;~)

I aslo got a steel body resonator hanging from two of these things in the front room and it's always still stuck there when I get home.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 05:23 PM

Several of the various drywall anchor/fasteners will hold quite a lot of weight if properly installed in walls in good condition. In my 60+ year old house, much of the drywall itself is in such questionable shape that every hanging is a "significant event" requiring structural assays and "site specific" selection of the right style and size of anchor for each project.

Fortunately, for now the local hardware merchants offer a wide variety of kinds; although some of the more "exotic" ones seem to come and go at random times, so that it's often hard to find one that worked well even 4 or 5 years ago. Toggle-bolts and Molly's seem to have persisted for long enough to be almost always easily available, although some sizes may be harder to find when you want another one - but of course reappear just after you've used something else.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 05:37 PM

I guess it all depends on what a "light load" is. I had to install spur shelving today, four bookshelves four feet long supported on two uprights fixed to the sheetrock. I figured four inserts on each upright would be ample, and I hope I am right. But I would not use them to hang kitchen wall cabinets, for example.

While I respect gnu's professional integrity, Tweed has a point, almost everything that gets built is always constructed far stronger than it actually needs to be. ( except bridges in Minnesota ....)

thanks for the link, kat, I will email them immediately

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 05:44 PM

I should point out here that in the UK, most sheetrock (or "plasterboard" as it is called over here) is used as a lining for external masonry walls, and that the gap between the masonry and the sheetrock is frequently insufficient to allow the use of toggle bolts.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:45 PM

Murray MacL -

The back space is also a very real problem in my camper. Interior wall panels are typically 1/8" thick splinterboard, with walls only about 1/2" to 3/4" thick, so there isn't enough depth to insert even a "molly" far enough to collapse it, even though once installed it would fit perfectly well. The "backing" of the panels is soft coarse-grained wood (single ply) that won't hold most "expansion" type anchors even to get the screw in. And surface mounting with even excellent adhesives doesn't work too well since the thing is unheated in storage and the temperature cycles pretty much shear off anything that's attached that way.

I just love the challenges.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:54 PM

Ain't as much the shelf but what yer gonna put on it... The nylon anchors are easy and hold a lot of weight but if it were me, I'd be findin' some studs, son...

Why do you think they are called "studs"???

Sink you a coarse threaded screw into a stud and that shelf ain't goin' nowhere...

Yeah, I have a lot of stuff hangin' from them nylon anchors but you need a stud, bro...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:56 PM

Sometimes you can't find a stud when you need one.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 08:34 PM

John, the solution to your problem is to build up the substrate to a thickness which will accept fixings, but to do this you need to use a 18g or 23 g brad nailer (air or electric) plus a PVA adhesive and fix additional strips onto the existing board. This thickness will then eventually hold screws.

I did exactly this job on a RV in Florida back in 2001.

Didn't have to go looking for studs in Florida back then ...

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Deckman
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 08:38 PM

"MOLLIES"

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 08:57 PM

for the benefit of UK Mudcatters, it should be explained that "mollies" are these expanding anchors which are yet another method of affixing to plasterboard.

They are not as efficient as the EZ fixings imo ...

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Bert
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 02:38 PM

I use Mollies for light loads and screw into the studs for heavy loads.

For going into concrete or masonry walls I use Tapcons for light loads and home made wood plugs for heavy loads.

Like gnu, I am an engineer, But I am giving this advice from over fifty years of personal experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 02:47 PM

I say get a ten-dollar studfinder and find them puppies. They're on stadard centers so find ne, you've found a whole wall of them.

That said, I do use a pair of mollies on each of my guitar hangars with no problems. But Gnu and Bobert are right. If it might someday carry more load, find you a stud and run a long deckscrew or a long lagbolt inta it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 02:58 PM

Yup. I get crapped on every day for overdoing it. But, I never get crapped on for underdoing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 05:06 PM

Amos -

They're on stadard(sic) centers so find ne(sic), you've found a whole wall of them.

That assumes that a prior owner of your home was not a DIY enthusiast who didn't bother to measure anything.

As the song says: "It ain't nec-e-sar-i-ly so."

(Although it's usually a good assumption for a starting point.)

I do, in fact, have a couple of walls to the old standard 18" stud centers, most on current 24" centers, along with a couple (that I've found) where they seem to have been located using a "random number generator." (13" to 27.4" are extremes I've found - in a single wall, with no good reason that I can see for the variations.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Bert
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 05:11 PM

The standard is 16" centers but I use a stud finder for every one 'cos as you say John "It ain't nec-e-sar-i-ly so."

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 05:15 PM

John is right.... I never assume that any stud is where is supposed to be... 16" centers is standard but unless I know fir certain I'm not going to put a hole in the drywall...

Like Amos said, buy a 10 buck stud finder...

BTW, too bad the name of this thread isn't more interestin' 'cause I think the ladies would be havin' a ball (no pun intended) with it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 05:33 PM

Stud finders... I prefer the $2 ones. Mainly because here in my home town, I find many houses in the fifty or so year old range have GB that varies from 5/8 to 9/8. Yup, that's what I said. One inch was made for industrial use firewalls and it can be up to 9/8. The modern stud finders won't work. And, if you can "knock out" the studs at that thickness, you are a young pup without hearing damage from power tools. Then again, I suppose some of you would hang a dozer on that kinda board.

Of course, I can often circumvent the problem by using a non-destructive moisture meter. But, they cost about $250 for a decent one. Not yer happy weekender special.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 01:52 AM

The cheapest stud finders are really nail finders, working on the assumption that the original wallboard installer put the nails in the studs.

I've also found that my "prior owner unhandy man" missed a lot of studs, but left the nails in place and hammered another on "a little bit over thataway" - sometimes a couple of times until one felt like it might have hit something (and sometimes didn't).

The "RF" finders that actually sense the stud are variable in how far they'll penetrate. Some reasonably priced ones (<$35 US) likely could find the variations through inch thick plasterboard, but others - often more expensive ones - are almost useless even on old "residential grade" stuff. Unfortunately, the only thing on the package when you go to get one is "this device is wonderful" with no actual/factual indication of what it will do, so finding the good ones (unless you know someone who has one and find one like it) is a crap shoot. From the package information, one might think they were getting a sex toy, given all the vacuous vague/promises and the low expectation of getting any actual satisfaction from using them.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:59 AM

Nailing into studs to hang something is the most secure way for sure, unless the thing yore hanging ain't laid out on 16" centers or won't be anesthetically pleasin'to the eye. Then you can either take the EZ way out or rip out a section of wallboard and put a new stud where you want to hang yore African tribal mask, narwhale horn collection or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 12:29 PM

A common "out" when the studs aren't in the right place for the thing you want to hang is a "backer board" that spans a couple of studs or that can have multiple "panel fasteners" - with the intended object mounted to (or hung on) that. Making a "decorative" board is simpler, and a lot more fun than breaking out, cleaning up, and replacing studs and wallboard. When you get done, call it an "escutcheon" to make it sound like you knew what you were doing.

Adding a stud in some of my walls would be a bit of a bother, even if not really difficult, due to the change in "stud standards" from 1.87 x 3.87 inch to 1.75 x 3.75 inch for the "2x4" since some of the walls were put up.

In my market, "stud length" for precuts now - which usually are cheaper than standard 2x4s - is also "1.75*3+1.5 less than 8'" ( = 92.62") rather than the old "1.87*3+1.5 less than" ( = 88.88), although it's a good idea to check what you really need each time before checking what you're actually getting, since not all "standard dimension" stuff is accurately "standard." Of course you can cut one that's too long so that it's shorter; but it's difficult to cut a short one off to make it longer.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 01:16 PM

do you really get studs at 1 3/4" x3 3/4" , John ?

over here, imported CLS ,( nominally 2"x4") comes in at 1/1/2" X 3 1/2".

makes it difficult to install accurately enough to ensure a center joint for the sheetrock every time ...

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:04 PM

Murray -

I guess I'll have to check at the lumber yard. That was the change that wrecked an add-in wall a few years back, when one old 2-by got mixed in with the new ones. I do have one 3-3/4 in my scrap rack, but it's a shorty several years (maybe several decades) old. I'll have to check to make sure things haven't changed again, since it's been a several years since I did any framing that required knowing. I did check with one of the "home improvement" websites, and found them still indicating 1-3/4 x 3-3/4, but the site data may be as old as I am.

There has been a growing trend here to using 2 x 6 studs for exterior walls, since it allows space for more insulation, and a few builders have been using steel framing which is "smaller" than 2 x 4s for interior walls; but I haven't checked what the dimensions are for the steel since it wouldn't match anything I've got.

Of course if you've got a smaller/newer stud you can always put it in flush with the side you need to mount stuff to; but that risks busting the board on the other side of the wall when you decide to hang something in the other room. Some people do use staggered 2 x 4s on 2 x 6 plates (or even 2 x 3 studs on 2 x 4 plates non-bearing) for acoustic separation on interior walls, especially between condo units; but I think it would be uncommon in single-family construction.

"The key to master carpentry is having the mistakes not show."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 04:52 AM

John, I have just finished constructing a workshop unit as you describe, staggered studs on 6" plates for acoustic purposes, the 6" plates being nominal 4" and 3" nailed together, actual sizes 3.5" and 2.5". Hopefully, the acoustic separation will justify the extra cost and time.

That steel framing you mention is the invention of the devil imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:30 AM

Yep, John, the key to master carpentry is exactly that... Hiding the mistakes... A good drywall man, a good "trim" carpenter and caulk are worth their weight in gold...

BTW, that "backing board" in the industry is called "blocking"...

Bobert "the builder"...

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 02:01 AM

In Oz during my school days decades ago, most males in 8th grade (which then was seen as an extra 'finishing' for Primary School, rather than the beginning of Technical School - Damn those Yank ideas!!!) every male did 'technical stuff' while females did 'home ec stuff'.

As I remember from then, 1-3/4 x 3-3/4 was 'dressed 2x4'...'dressed sizes' always meant that the rough cout standard sizes were planed smooth, taking a planne 1/8 off each face.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 01:14 PM

I'm planning to put a safety bar in each shower and will have to drill through the Mexican tile on the walls to hit studs, but my stud finder won't work through tile. I am not going to assume that the builders got the stud centers right as I measure on the regular exposed drywall and move along that wall into the shower. My thoughts are that as long as I put the bar on a wall with access from the other side, I will measure carefully on the back side to be sure the studs are correctly place (in one instance, a closet wall, the other may be more challenging, it is the heat pump closet) and be sure that I have identified the studs on the drywall side, transfer the measurements to the tile side, then make my holes.

Stud finders sound like a good idea, but you still need your wits about you when trying to track down a few illusive inches of wood, know what I mean?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: open mike
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 02:51 PM

ditto what srs sez

Stud finders sound like a good idea, but you still
need your wits about you ...

now how do these "stud finders" work?

is it like the personals page?
are there any guarantees?

do they require batteries?

perhaps there is a device that measures pheremones?

would it be analog or digital?

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 12:25 AM

All good questions, open mike!

As to the analog or digital preference, I suspect that is a highly personal choice for wood workers, and I wouldn't be surprised if many have both available, depending on the whim of the moment.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 12:31 AM

If it's digital, which finger do you use?


:-P

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 04:15 AM

If you're a woodworker, sometimes it depends on which finger you have left.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 07:17 AM

That's right John?

:-P

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 04:39 PM

Digital doesn't imply only one digit. It could be all digits brought to bear. Bare. Whatever.

The interesting convergence of carpentry and suggestive double entendres has resulted in a Google ad for "Exotic Flooring."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Sheetrock fixings, what is the name ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 06:05 PM

Kim Kelly Plastering & Shaft Wall

:-)


well, I suppose if Kim Kelly got plastered, he might try to shaft the wall....