EFDSS New Chief Exec.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 04:52 PM

I would like to make it clear,that any new director should not be prejudged on his/ her cv,they should be judged on that which they achieve over the next couple of years.
I do not wish to be associated with any of the criticism of Ms Spicers appointment.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 05:21 PM

Well said Dick!!

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:03 PM

EFDSS is improving although it does seem to be a case of three steps forward and two backwards.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:11 PM

"EFDSS is improving although it does seem to be a case of three steps forward and two backwards."

would you care to elucidate?

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: johnadams
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:11 PM

Interesting. What would you consider to be the backward steps?

J

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:23 PM

This SHOULD prove interesting.....

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:04 PM

Name your steps.....

Dave

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:18 PM

I'm interested to know as well, Johnny - genuinely. But for the record, here are some of the forward steps of the past 12 months:

£154,500 Heritage Lottery Fund grant for the Take 6 Project, conserving 6 collections from the VWML and taking some of them into the communities where they were first collected

Hardcore English tunebook and double CD published in June 2007. "A sort of English O'Neill's. An essential publication." - Paul Burgess, Living Tradition

Marrow Bones: English folk songs from the Hammond and Gardener manuscripts, published in July 2007. "A most welcome reprint." - Martin Carthy

EDS magazine goes full colour

London Links project launched to expand the use of VWML by community groups and individuals, particularly in 3 London boroughs. Part-funded by a £3k grant from the Mercer's Company

Running Joak, the Gloworms debut CD, produced May 2007

EFDSS 75th anniversary events held throughout the year

EFDSS-sponsored film screenings, talks and workshops at festivals including Sidmouth and Whitby

Traveller's Joy: songs of English and Scottish Trevellers and Gypsies, songbook and CD published January 2007. "The most important book of traditional songs to be published so far this century." - Vic Smith, fRoots

Treble DVD of Sam Sherry, including archival film, photos and biography, published November 2007

The Folk Handbook, published in collaboration with Backbeat Books, 2007

Grant funding achieved for the appointment of a new Education Director

Appointment of Katy Spicer, new Chief Executive, from early 2008

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: johnadams
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 08:24 PM

Hmm! When you're close to the stuff it's easy to lose sight of the whole thing. I've been pretty busy with my bits, but when you look at the whole list in one lump.......

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 03:37 AM

Yeah, I know. Derek Schofield compiled this list as a handout for the EFDSS stall at the Association of Festival Organisers conference, and it does make a really good answer to the question, "But what does EFDSS actually DO?"

The initiatives which made all of this happen largely pre-date my involvement, but it still makes me really proud to be involved. There's only more good stuff to come.

And maybe, when you look at some of the big grants and projects, it begins to demonstrate why having an experienced arts mananger leading the society is such an important step right now.

And not to bang on too much, but the best way for people to support this work is to get involved, either by simply joining EFDSS or by taking a more active role - either would be welcomed.

*gets down off soap box*

Subject: GO KATY!
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 07:57 PM

I work for a mental health charity. We expect the staff to be shit hot mental health practitioners. We expect our Chief Executive to be shit hot at networking and publicity and fundraising and strategic planning and all that kind of stuff. Whether she sould cut it as a mental health practitioner is neither here nor there. That's not what she's in post for.

I'd imagine the situation with Katy Spicer parallels this. I just hope she is able to continue to guide the EFDSS down the path it is already going down. I wish her best of luck in her new job.

As for those who think the social inclusion agenda somehow dilutes English folk music - get over youselves. Getting the broadest possible cross section of people involved or at least aware of traditional English music isn't exactly a criminal offence! And we don't live in some 1950's viilage green version of the UK, fer christ's sake!

Cheers

Nigel (Membership No 44313A4)

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:24 PM

But, Nigel, you should I hope expect your chief exec to be wholly committed to the objectives of the charity and the best standards of mental health care, rather than prepared to compromise those things for greater profit or funding.

There is nothing yet to indicate that Katy Spicer has any knowledge of or devotion to the objectives (and the constitutional objectives in point are curious as previously stated on this forum, IMHO) of the EFDSS. That is I suggest why one should wait watchfully.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:31 AM

.........you should I hope expect your chief exec to be wholly committed to the objectives of the charity and the best standards of mental health care, rather than prepared to compromise those things for greater profit or funding

Richard there is absolutely no evidence to suggest the new CEO who does not even start work for another two months is not committed, nor is there any evidence of compromise by her on behalf of the EFDSS.

Nor is there any evidence she will NOT be devoted to the objectives of the EFDSS that I am aware of. And if you are in a member of the society you are in a position to make changes. If you are not then it is nothing to do with you.

As far "watching her" I watch ANY CEO of ANY organisation I belong to - that's why I left the Labour Party!!

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:29 AM

I often worry about that infamous phrase "working within an organisation (insert appropriate name)to bring change about" Far to often a person or persons become corrupted by the very organisation they're attempting to change, either that or they become marginalised, thus ineffectual, for "not going along with everyone else".

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 01:55 PM

Poor old Katy - she hasn't even started the job yet, and look at the furore...people talking about "watching" her as if she's a goldfish in a bowl and some sort of global threat , people carping on about her qualifications and track record (which, as far as I can see, looks reasonably varied from my experience of working in an arts environment as I have been for the last 9 years, albeit on a very part time basis as both volunteer and paid member of staff, ... OK there's more dance than other arts, but that may just be her personal preference.... and I can't believe that I am now discussing her as well!! What counts is the ability to manage in this new situation, and to cope with funding ,budgeting and publicity.

If I was her, I think I'd be wanting to turn tail and ditch the job before I got going in view of all the carping from people who have never met her, never had to deal with her, and have little idea of what makes her tick as a person and as an organiser. Give her a break, and let her start her job, find her feet and get going for a reasonable length of time .... and then, and ONLY then can you start discussing whether she is able to do the job she has been selected for.

I wish her all the best.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 02:21 PM

I would think she is in there for two reasons: fundraising and project management.

She has an excellent track record in both as far as I can see.

Far to often a person or persons become corrupted by the very organisation they're attempting to change, either that or they become marginalised, thus ineffectual, for "not going along with everyone else".

But at least they have tried. I am interested to know how you would propose to change an organisation without belonging.

For example I have shares in Sheffield United - it won't help me to win a lot of resloutions at the AGM - indeed I think the Chairman is doing a wonderful job anyway, not so sure about the manager - but I can get my viewpoint across at least once a year.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: the button
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 02:47 PM

Being associated with Sheffield United won't let you win much at all, to be honest.

(Sorry, couldn't resist).

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 06:19 PM

Started supporting them at 16 years of age.

We have had our highs and lows:-)

I have talked to others about this - where is the fun in supporting (for example) Arsenal.

Q: "How've you got on today?"

A: "Won".

No pleasure at all.

Dave

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 12:28 PM

I enjoy watching Arsenal play because they are a delight to watch,they know How to pass the ball, score goals,Win and provide excellent entertainment.I also had a fivepound bet on them to win the premiership at 5 to 1.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 02:06 PM

Yup...seems the "mighty Man U". are slip slidin' away...to coin a phrase....

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 03:55 PM

Sorry for starting the thread drift.

Dave

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:07 PM

Its not over till the fat lady[Fergy ]sings.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:12 PM

I like this thread drift...it's far more interesting...Fergy can sing????? :-P A new thread topic, mayhap? :-D

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:20 PM

"I like this thread drift...it's far more interesting..."

If you're not interested in the thread, why bother reading or contributing?

Mind you, I expect EFDSS doesn't have much relevance in Canada.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:26 PM

Dunno about Canada, never been there...I think you have me mistaken for someone else...someone who perhaps feels the same way I do...ie the relevance of the EFDSS....Hmm maybe a run through the threads will provide an answer for me. Doesn't it occur to you that there might be more than one person who feels the same way...seems the answer is no as far as I can see...

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:29 PM

Arts "Managers", CEOs, fundraisers, and even organisations such as the EFDSS and what have you will come and go, but at the end of day when all is said and done, the musicians and the audiences are the ones that matter, because without them there is nothing else.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Adam Lesson
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:39 PM

Musicians and audiences come and go as well!

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:41 PM

Let me put it simply...it's the musicians and the audiences that matter.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:53 PM

Oh, I think I know exactly who you are...and like your "girlfriend", you can't resist constantly making up new identities, which I think is a particularly cowardly way of having a pop at things, or people. Looking through your posts on other threads under this particular name, it's quite clear who you are - and we both know your gripe is not with EFDSS, but rather with some of its supporters who post on this thread.

Of course the music and the audiences are of primary importance. But how do the audiences actually find out about the music? How do the CDs get made, the concerts and festivals get organised? Who does the work that opens up the music to even more audiences?

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:06 PM

Life is way too short to get into personal attacks, I'm not going to play your game and I'm also not going to reiterate what I've already said...and my problem is with the EFDSS..the individuals don't interest me as such.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:11 PM

no personal attacks...I just think we ought to be honest if we're going to have a discussion. Why not actually outline what your "problem" with EFDSS is? Then maybe your criticisms could be responded to.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: oggie
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:25 PM

Look at any festival, there will be a list of sponsers. Look at BramptonLive, petition to council to keep it's funding. Yes, if your idea of folk music is three men in a pub it don't need owt else (unless the pub is owned by Smirhs, in which case tough luck).

Every rock tour of any size is sponsored.

There is money around IF you can play the "game" and knowing how to do that is crucial. Andy Dixon kept Remould Theatre (creators of "The Northern Trawl") going for years because he knew what to do. There is money to keep the VWML growing, to develop C# House, to do other work. If you think that folk music is "of the people etc" then it may seem irrelevant and the same group of you can sing "Pleasant and Delightful" ad infinitum in the pub of your choice until it all withers and dies.

If you think the EFDSS is irrelevant then the appointment of a top flight arts administrator is bad news because she'll make things happen and the Society a player again.

BTW - Molecatchers Apprentice, If you believe in what you say you could at least have the guts to put your name to your posts.

Steve Ogden

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:42 PM

Every rock tour of any size is sponsored.

And of course the support band often pays to go on it.

And the lighting man often gets paid more than the musicians.

Come on Molecatcher's Apprentice. You are posting constantly now - why not register and put your real name on a letter to Mudcat.

Sign A Missive.

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:54 PM

Moley said it was teh musicians and audiences that mattered. They are merely vehicles. What matters is the artform itself - the English Folk Dance and Song. The funding is not the purpose, it is merely a means to an end.

The means must not become the end.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 06:11 PM

Moley said it was teh musicians and audiences that mattered. They are merely vehicles. What matters is the artform itself - the English Folk Dance and Song.

Without the musicians - and the dancers, the artform would not exist, so they are more than vehicles they are what keeps the artform alive.

The funding is not the purpose, it is merely a means to an end. The means must not become the end.

Agreed with this one.

What a lot of griping about someone who has not yet taken up her post!! Surely to goodness you can give her the benefit of the doubt.

She seems to have the right sort of qualifications for the job and the kind of track record needed - and as for her background in dance, it seems that most of you have forgotten that this is the English Folk Song and Dance Society that is being discussed, so her background in dance seems highly relevant to me.

But then I am just a mere amateur who simply enjoys singing and playing folk music for a hobby and occasionally stands up and clumps around at a Ceilidh.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 06:35 PM

"even organisations such as the EFDSS and what have you will come and go"

says Moley. True - but this particular organisation has managed to last since 1898 in one form or another - and is still looking for new and innovative ways to keep the traditions it serves alive.

How cool is that?

Nigel Spencer (more lke Badger if I'm to be honest)

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,a southampton folkie
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM

Bit of thread creep here, but what the heck...speaking of the EFDSS, their inaugural songwriting competition earlier this year was won by Gene Burton...I've said it before and I daresay I'll say it again: check his music out! Bloody brilliant IMHO; and you can sample it for free: www.myspace.com/geneburtonmusic

(haven't even attempted a blue clickie this time 'cos they never seem to work for me)

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:05 AM

I still have trouble with the FOLK Dance and Song Society prioritising songwriting over FOLK song. No doubt some new acoustic music is musically worthwhile, but is that under threat, is that in need of preservation, and how does that link us to our roots?

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:06 AM

"The funding is not the purpose, it is merely a means to an end.

The means must not become the end."

Your point is a valid one, Richard, but just because someone is very good at achieving funding, why the assumption that they are led by it?

When I used to teach fundraising to my students, two of the things I tried to emphasise dealt precisely with this issue. Firstly, funders will have stated objectives and criteria, and you will only achieve the funding if you are meeting those objectives - you have to satisfy THEIR needs. On the other hand, you have specific reasons for wanting to do the project, and you cannot let those be altered out of all recognition to meet a funder's criteria. Before you start, know which bits you are willing to compromise on - and which bits you aren't. If a funder wants you to change those core beliefs and values, then they're probably not right for you. Go and look for another funder. To do otherwise is to let the tail wag the dog, and can ultimately be very damaging.

Remember that Katy, when she arrives, will not be working in isolation - she'll be working closely with the National Council. It's part of our job, as trustees of the society, to make sure that those core objectives of EFDSS remain the top priority.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:09 AM

I don't remember this songwriting competition - clearly I have missed something.

When was it and who came second?

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:55 AM

it was at Cheltenham Folk Festival and constituted part of the EFDSS 75th anniversary events.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 04:33 AM

Senior moment.

Dave

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,Richard on another terminal
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 06:31 AM

Well, yes Ruth, that's why I said that we need to watch vigilantly and see what happens. I am not condemning, merely wondering if there might be a risk of putting the fox in charge of the hencoop. But you reassure me that the wise farmers are monitoring the activities of the unknown animal. If she turns out to be a metaphorical rooster and fertilises the hens, fine. But if she is a fox the hens may be lost. And if she is a bantam the next generation of chickens may be smaller.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 06:50 AM

I read some of these comments on this topic with great irritation.
The one good thing one can say is that the issue of the appointment of a chief executive, the issue of fund-raising, accountability and the criteria of funders are all out in the open and being discussed in this EFDSS context.
I cannot remember a thread on mudcat that commented in some much detail, or so critically, on other appointments by folk music and dance organisations, or on the many, many successful funding projects in folk music. Many festivals get funding, Folk Arts England, Folkworks at the Sage, Folk South West..... Why doesn't someone start a thread about these, and then see if you get as good a response from representatives of those organisations.....
Derek Schofield

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: mattkeen
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:00 AM

Guest Derek Scofield
Summed up my feelings.
Some of you lot live under stones.

Thanks are due to a lot of others though for there common sense and commitment including Ruth, Greg, diane etc etc.

The new chied exec looks highly qualified
SHE IS A PROFESSIONAL ARTS MANAGER

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: mattkeen
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:02 AM

What is all that shxte about chickens?????????????????

Please go out a bit more

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:03 AM

Well said Derek.

Dave

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:46 AM

mattkeen, if you really don't understand, then maybe you ought not to have a view.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:47 AM

Hells Bells, look at where overenthusiastic fundraising has got New Labour...

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:47 AM

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 04:52 PM

I would like to make it clear,that any new director should not be prejudged on his/ her cv,they should be judged on that which they achieve over the next couple of years.
I do not wish to be associated with any of the criticism of Ms Spicers appointment.Dick Miles