BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1

Subject: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: gnu
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 08:26 AM

I was shredding documents last night (appropriate?) and watching the country music channel for company as we don't yet have a folk music channel on TV. I saw that "Larry King Live" was on as I was searching for something better and clicked to see who's ass(es) Larry was kissing. Anderson Cooper said, "Here is another You Tube question......"

I was glued to the screen! Riveted! Screwed... yeah, screwed.

JHC on a crutch! What a bunch! Based on the "debate", only two guys out of 7 or 8 are worth even the slightest consideration. Three of them made complete and utter asses of themselves, to the point of actually shocking me.

No, I won't name names. No, I don't want to "discuss" any of them or any of the(ir) issues or anything else. Here is my question : "Are they * serious?!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 11:09 AM

Yes, I think they're serious. I can't watch Mike Huckabee without thinking of Gomer Pyle, so it's hard to take him serious. Besides he's just the representative of a kind of American Taliband, so I wouldn't take him serious.

                   The sad part for me is, they are the only ones talking seriously about doing something about immigration. They're mostly motivated by all the wrong reasons, but the Democrats don't seem to see it as a problem at all

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 11:14 AM

They're motivated by pandering to people's fears and resentments in order to get votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 02:18 PM

They certainly don't come out with positive messages, that's for sure. But then, the Democrats don't seem to either.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 02:19 PM

Au contraire -- Obama and Kucinich have plenty of positive messages.


IMHO, that is.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 03:11 PM

Kucinich does have positive messages. Obama seem more willing to simply play the political game to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: gnu
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:28 PM

Neither were in the debate last night, A.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: number 6
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:36 PM

Mike Huckabee's proposal for eliminating all income tax, scrapping the IRS makes a lot of sense to me.

In fact listening to all these other Republican presidential wannabees, Huckabee is the only one of them that gets anywhere near making some sort of sense.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:07 PM

Dunno if this is Huckabee's idea or not, but whenever eliminating the income tax is suggested, it is usually coupled with making up the deficit by charging a national sales tax. Washington State, where I live, has a state sales tax, and it's the low-income folks who get screwed with that system. Whenever the suggestion is made to chuck the sales tax in favor of a state income tax, the folks who protest the loudest are local corporations and the wealthy.

Eliminating the income tax in favor of a sales tax is a very Republican idea.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:29 PM

"Huckabee is the only one of them that gets anywhere near making some sort of sense."

                      I've never heard a Baptist Minister who made sense before, but when you put him on a stage with that group, who knows?

                      The only one who really makes sense to me is Ron Paul, but Tancredo is good on immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: number 6
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:34 PM

Republican, kapublican, demopublikan, whosever idea it is makes sense to me ... Better to pay tax on what ya buy than being taxed on what you earn in wages or social assitance ... your money regardless if your rich or poor.

What you buy is your decision ... what you earn is yours and should not be tapped either buy government income tax or mobster demands on protection.

I should add sales tax should not be applied to all essential items such as food, heating, medicine etc.)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: number 6
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:38 PM

`I've never heard a Baptist Minister who made sense before, but when you put him on a stage with that group, who knows?

I stress `with that group` a Baptist Minister would make sense .. horrifying, isn`t it.

Ron Paul ... ya, another one of the group that isn`t so horrific, scarry, but not horrifying.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: mg
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:40 PM

If I was poor in Washington I would way way rather have a sales tax than an income tax. that is why I will never live in Oregon although I could walk there from here. Food is exempt, at least where I live. Rent is not taxed. Bus fares are not taxed. If you are low income there aren't a whole lot of things that you can buy that are not second-hand so you actually come out better I think with a sales tax, assuming food is exempted. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:42 PM

If I had pain medication I'd watch the Youtube broadcast.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 06:19 PM

A sales tax on new items (the non-essential ones) instead of an income tax sounds like a pretty good idea to me. That way people would actually be encouraged to save some money for a change! That would be quite a change in North American psychology which is presently geared to spending every dollar you've got, and then some.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: GUEST,Cruiser
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 06:42 PM

Huckabee's comments to the National Rifle Association:

"And as one who believes, because of my faith, that I'm going to Heaven, I'm pretty sure there will be duck hunting in Heaven, and I can't wait."

"And somehow, by the grace of God, when I squeezed the trigger, my Weatherby .300 Mag, which has got to be the greatest gun, I think, ever made in the form of a rifle -- for my sake in hunting, I've never squeezed the trigger and not gotten something -- did its work, and somehow the angels took that bullet and went right to the antelope, and my hunt was over in a wonderful way."

The man is a dangerous fool and if you thought Mr. Bush was religiously insane……

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 07:03 PM

Huckabee with a Weatherby! Boy the minstrels ought to be able to do something with that.


    "I would way way rather have a sales tax than an income tax. that is why I will never live in Oregon..."


               mg - You're right. I live in Oregon and the local fire department is closed, the libraries have been closed, and the schools have 28 students per classroom.
                   They have only one way to raise money locally, and that's through property taxes. The retired people who have moved here over the last several years won't let that happen. Their children are grown and their grandchildren live somewere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 01:43 PM

"A sales tax on new items (the non-essential ones) instead of an income tax sounds like a pretty good idea to me. That way people would actually be encouraged to save some money for a change!"

Well, it hasn't worked yet, not where there is a sales tax. Also, there is the matter of who decides what is essential and what is not. Under an income tax system the way it has been proposed for Washington State, there would be a fair number of low income folks who would simply not pay taxes because they don't make enough. Also, you could deduct what you pay in state income tax from your federal income tax, so your tax money stays closer to home where you might notice some real benefit from it yourself.

When someone says "income tax," a lot of people go bananas. You can't just knee-jerk these things, you have to think it through.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 09:21 PM

Actually, a consumption tax makes a whole lot of sense, but I'd be careful what becomes exempt. Gasoline, for instance, could be labled a necessity, but only up to a point. And food items for people with sensible sized families, but for over populaters there should be some recourse.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: bankley
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 07:08 AM

Ron Paul is making the rest of them nervous, in spite of the media's attempt to marginalize him, limit his air time in the debates, smear him as a kook and his supporters as 'domestic terrorists'. He must be doing something right. I wish the good doctor all the best...

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:48 PM

I think what makes them nervous is, Ron Paul is telling them--and the public--the truth. Of course he can only relate the truth as he sees it, but he doesn't pander for votes, and just speaks his piece from his point of view.

                  It's very refreshing.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 12:27 PM

Re Ron Paul "speak[ing] the truth from his own point of view", some may think so. But I personally have major issues with Ron Paul's definition of truth with regard to race.

Here's an excerpt from a 1992 piece titled "Los Angeles Racial Terrorist" written by Ron Paul on the subject of the riots in South Central Los Angeles in 1991.

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.african.american/msg/c8668bd3662b0fa5

"...Regardless of what the media tell us, most white Americans are not going to believe that they are at fault for what blacks have done to cities across America. The professional blacks may have cowed the elites, but good sense survives at the grass roots. Many more are going to have difficultly avoiding the belief that our country is being destroyed by a group of actual and potential terrorists -- and they can be identified by the color of their skin. This conclusion may not be entirely fair, but it is, for many, entirely unavoidable.

Indeed, it is shocking to consider the uniformity of opinion among blacks in this country. Opinion polls consistently show that only about 5% of blacks have sensible political opinions, i.e. support the free market, individual liberty, and the end of welfare and affirmative action.... Given the inefficiencies of what D.C. laughingly calls the "criminal justice system," I think we can safely assume that 95% of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal.

-snip-

There's more where that came from.

That may be your idea of truth. It definitely isn't mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 02:04 PM

Azizi - I did say Paul was speaking the "truth" from his point of view. There are a number of points of view on every issue.
                I still think Paul's approach is better than the approaches of those candidates who will try to say whatever they think will work to get them elected.

                At least with Paul you know where he stands, and he's demonstrated that he's not above re-evaluating information and changing his mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 02:07 PM

He has also shown himself to hold racist views. Whether he still holds those views is another matter--one that maybe he should address in this election romp. (But then we could likely expect him to say what will work, given the temper of the times.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 02:31 PM

Regarding racism, probably even he would say what he thought would work. Though there are a number of people who will swear to the ends of the earth they are not racist, and then go on to demonstrate just the opposite on a day to day basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:38 PM

Yeah. I hear that, RS, and I'm glad you didn't take the post 'personally'. I am so bloody fed up with politicians and politics I could begin to tell you--but not end. So, I shan't start.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: gnu
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:26 AM

Well, Peace, I can Schreiber with that.

Um... better explain that.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 09:31 PM

So was Mulroney crooked, or just incredibly stupid like Ronald Reagan?

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 09:35 PM

Azizi-

I really haven't been paying much attention to the Republican presidential pretenders and I certainly had missed any reference to Ron Paul's racist views. Wow! He deserves to be marooned on some desert island with the rest of his supporters.

Huckabee is probably a more potential threat, because he does come across as a "straight shooter," someone who is also thoughtful and who has a sense of humor. I can see why he has attracted favorable attention in Iowa. That doesn't say much for the rest of the Republican candidates. Although, I expect that McCain will actually do very well in New Hampshire.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 10:49 PM

Huckabee has some a serious problems too.

See this excerpt from http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/13814.html :


"Way back in January, Mike Huckabee appeared on Meet the Press and was asked about Wayne Dumond. In 1996, Dumond, a convicted rapist who attacked a 17-year-old girl, was up for parole, but the Arkansas parole board was poised to deny his request. Huckabee intervened and announced he would commute Dumond's sentence, causing the parole board to reverse course and grant him parole, a decision Huckabee endorsed.

Within a year of being freed, Dumond traveled to Missouri, where he raped and killed another young woman, and was the lead suspect in another rape and murder case. Tim Russert asked the former governor if he regretted supporting Dumond's parole. Huckabee was evasive, saying only that he "wish[ed] that I had known more than I knew." Huckabee went on to insist that he did not intervene in Dumond's case with the parole board, and neither he nor his staff tried to convince the board to grant Dumond parole...

Confidential Arkansas state government records, including letters from these women, obtained by the Huffington Post and revealed publicly for the first time, directly contradict the version of events now being put forward by Huckabee.

While on the campaign trail, Huckabee has claimed that he supported the 1999 release of Wayne Dumond because, at the time, he had no good reason to believe that the man represented a further threat to the public. Thanks to Huckabee's intervention, conducted in concert with a right-wing tabloid campaign on Dumond's behalf, Dumond was let out of prison 25 years before his sentence would have ended.

And why on earth would Huckabee have supported the release of a man convicted of raping a teenaged girl in the first place? Because of a right-wing political campaign on Dumond's behalf.

CBS News explained yesterday that Dumond's original victim was a distant cousin of then-Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton and the daughter of a major Democratic campaign contributor.

As Clinton rose to national prominence, the case came to the attention of his critics. Journalists and talk show hosts questioned the victim's story and suggested that DuMond had been railroaded by the former governor. Steve Dunleavy, a New York Post columnist, took up the case as a cause, calling DuMond's conviction "a travesty of justice." […]

When Huckabee became governor in 1996, he expressed doubts about DuMond's guilt and said he was considering commuting his sentence to time served. After the victim and her supporters protested, Huckabee decided against commutation. But in 1997, according to the Kansas City Star, Huckabee wrote a letter to DuMond saying "my desire is that you be released from prison." Less than a year later, DuMond was granted parole.

Huckabee's office denied that the governor played a role in the parole board's decision, but there was evidence (exhaustively detailed here) to contradict that claim.

Charles Chastain, a Professor of Criminal Justice at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock, who was on the parole board at the time, told CBSNews.com the governor met with the board to argue on DuMond's behalf.

For some conservatives, Clinton Derangement Syndrome was so intense, they defended a man convicted of raping a 17-year-old girl — and then Huckabee bought into it, ultimately supporting the rapist's release.

That's where Murray Waas' revelations come into play. The governor received chilling testimonies from other victims and their relatives that Dumond was a dangerous criminal who would strike again, but he dismissed their concerns, in part because this rapist had become a cause celebre in right-wing circles.

To be sure, this painful, tragic story isn't exactly new; Huckabee watchers have been talking about it for years. Even this year, his critics couldn't imagine why this scandal hadn't knocked Huckabee out of contention for the Republican nomination"...









http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/13814.html

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:31 AM

Funny that not one candidate ever reffered to or even used the word poor.

As for the Democrats there is only one candidate even there that mentions the poor. His name is Edwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: gnu
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 06:56 AM

Riginslinger... yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Peace
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:59 PM

Just saw the post. Rig--YES!

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 09:23 PM

Donuel:

I think you will fine that Barack Obama uses the word as well.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: kendall
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:15 PM

The income tax is a misnomer. It's more of a salary tax. The rich just have ways to hide their income while the working grunt gets it deducted from his pay check.

The sales tax sucks too; the poor pay the same amount of tax on an item as the rich do.
All taxes suck, but how else are you going to pay the bills? Someone once said, "Taxes are the price we pay for our way of life."

Subject: RE: BS: Republican Presidential Debate Dec 1
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM

Sales taxes are merely regressive--How do you classify the Payroll tax situation (constant percentage of wages until you make enough money so you don't have to pay any more)?