hornpipes and sailors

Subject: hornpipes and sailors
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 02:03 PM

I understood, hornpipe competitions were used on board Royal naval ships,to get sailors in competitive mood before engaging in battle with the enemy.
That often there would be a fiddler on board ship,whose purpose was to play for the able seamen,for these competitions.
The ships would be ready for battle,but there might be considerable time before they were within firing range,and that this would be the time the sailors would have Hornpipe competitions.
does anyone know if this is true or false.
no prizes for the experts.

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 02:17 PM

I'd heard (on no particular authority) that, while armies can be marched up and down parade grounds or sent on exercises in the countryside, on ship you're a bit restricted. Dancing was encouraged or, possibly enforced, as a way of getting some exercise in a limited space. Also a way of keeping men occupied who would have been bored out of their minds most of the time. There was a long time at sea between battles.

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: Little Robyn
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 02:18 PM

I'm no expert but I would have thought, at the time the enemy were approaching, you'd be so busy getting everything ready for battle, there'd be no time for dancing. Unless it was a nervous jig when suddenly you needed a pee?
Mitch thinks that before they knew about vitamin C, they thought that fitness was a way of avoiding scurvy so they were encouraged to dance as a way of keeping fit.
Robyn

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 02:53 PM

Aah've not come across this story before.

Royal Navy crews wouldn't need to get in a competitive mood te fight an enemy.

Any Skipper worth his salt would have his gun crews trained constantly te keep them at 'battle readiness' and there would be enough competition between a) individual guns crews on each deck and b) individual decks, te see who could 'turn around' a gun in the quickest time.

Apparently British crews could turn a gun around just under three times a minute - That's 20 seconds from 'Fire' to allow the gun to recoil onto it's 'stops', rake-out the debris of the burning charge, rinse out (& cool) the barrel with a 'plunger' soaked in water, ram home a new powder charge (in a canvas bag) ram home a new ball/chain-shot, roll out the gun, manouvre the gun into the right angle (left or right), prime the 'touch-hole', aim as the ship rolled and touch the flame to the 'touch-hole' to fire the gun

Having worked on HMS Victory as a guide many years ago we tried this with a plastic replica gun on a proper wooden cradle (making it about one-tenth of the weight of a normal gun) - After two hours practice we could only manage the above action in 42 seconds - That is without the added pressure of cannon blazing around us, bodies flying, men screaming and slipping on the sh*t that would normally be swimming around the deck during a battle.

The 'run-up' to being 'within range' would be a time for double-checking everything (and everybody) was in place and possibly a time for quiet reflection to make arrangements with one's maker.

Centralising the men to compete in dancin' would mean that once the sh*t hit the fan they would all have to then run to where their part-of-ship was.

Coming 'within range' might not take as long as expected as a gun's range could be extended dramatically if a long swell was running - The long up-roll could give a ship a vastly extended fire-power

Another part of the preparation for battle was converting the rear (officer's cabins) into small gun-decks as well as moving all of the furniture on board into small boats which were towed behind during the battle. Ahh divvent think there'd be time for dancin'

A fiddler wouldn't be 'carried' on board solely as a fiddler - He would be a regular sailor who played the fiddle/squeeze-box as an 'extra' (There'd be any number of them) and they would be used by the crew at work times (capstan-turning, rope hauling - shanty-singing was discouraged on RN ships except when a HUGE job, like raising a new/repaired spar up to a mast)

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: Greg B
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 02:59 PM

Likely a fiddle or a flute prior to the mid-1800's as both
accordions and concertinas didn't come to the fore and become
all the rage until some time after 1830. In fact one tends to
think that the rise of the clippers and the beginning of the
age of steam were coincident with the era of the squeezeboxen.

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: Melani
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 04:17 PM

I have heard that they thought dancing and exercise was a way to prevent scurvy before they discovered lime juice. Admiral Vernon ("Old Grog", from his grogham cloak)encouraged the mixing of lime juice and sugar with rum in 1740, and by 1747 experiments had shown that citrus would prevent scurvy. I think lime juice had become standard by Nelson's time.

As I recall, the Bounty had a blind or half-blind fiddler aboard.

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 04:31 PM

Admiral Collingwood (of Trafalgar fame - 1805?) wrote in his diaries of having bagpipes & fiddles on board - and a pipemaker (but the rats ate the bags). They had a "band" which played for the sailors to dance hornpipes to, for about an hour - 6-7 in the evening (can't remember which watch that is).
Yes it was supposed to help scurvy.

Though we don't know exactly, they were probably what is known today as Border or Lowland pipes.

Paws

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: Les from Hull
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 06:16 PM

It's amazing how much of what 'we know' about the Navy in Nelson's time is what we've heard. Unfortunately this also includes the guides on Victory, who seemed to be not well-trained, or at least weren't when I last visited (sorry Georgie-Peorgie, they may be an excellent navy, but their knowledge of history is patchy). Three rounds in five minutes was thought to be an excellent rate of fire. Three in a minute was impossible.

I believe there was at least one recorded occurrence of dancing before a battle (in light airs and an approaching speed of 1 or 2 knots it could indeed take quite some time to be within gun range, say 1,000 yards), but this was probably taken up by the many writers of naval fiction so it seems to have been more widespread. Captains varied greatly in their approach to discipline. Dancing would be limited to the forecastle or upped deck. Dancing on other decks should be limited to the severely vertically challanged.

It's also worth pointing out that, compared with merchant ships, warships had crews that were far more than they needed to simply sail the ship (six to ten times more in number). You could clear for action in about five minutes. In most accounts any time before the ship came into range was taken up by sending the hands to dinner. Most Captains made sure that their crew had a hot meal before an action if there was time.

Music on board - depended very much on circumstance. Some Captains employed a whole band, but mainly to play for the officers. Sometimes a sailor would be a capable fiddler, or a Marine drummer could play a fife (Marine Drummers were adult, not like the army's drummer boys). Most ships could muster some sort of music. Incidently, the fiddler in the 1984 film about the Bounty (the Mel Gibson/Anthony Hopkins one) is none other that Barry Dransfield.

And it was normally lemons as the citrus juice available at this time. Lemons were much more readily available in Europe.

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: Les from Hull
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 06:17 PM

not upped - upper. Damn these fingers!

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 07:00 PM

My God!! Wouldja' look at Ol' Pickens dance?
That's not a dance.....He caught a cannonball up his ass!

The amount of utter crap we're so often willing to believe is virtually infinite.

Spaw

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: Melani
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 10:56 PM

We visited the Victory last May, and I asked one of the sailors on duty about the origen of the term "Nelson's Blood" for grog--you know, the story about the sailors tapping the barrel his body was preserved in. She had no idea and didn't appear to know what I was talking about--someone detailed as a tourist guide on Nelson's ship!

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: mg
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 11:53 PM

On cartoons you used to see them doing what was called the Apache dance where they would start with their foreheads together. Was that really done? Is there an Apache dance? mg

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: GUEST,frog
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 06:41 AM

As a matter of interest I attended a Naval college and daily dancing of the hornpipe was compulsory. It was part of the physical fitness programme in a confined space and we were told it was still used at sea. This was the mid 1960's. The musician was a lone drummer beating the rhythm.

Also gun drill was compulsory for all ranks and by this time we were going over to missiles and automated guns so I think it was to teach discipline and teamwork.

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 06:55 AM

http://www.highlandhornpipe.com/background.html

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: Les from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 08:23 AM

Melani: I'm glad that you Victory guide didn't know that story, 'cos it's not true. Nelson's blood refers to rum, and his body was in brandy, at least until Gibraltar when it was transferred into spirits of wine (alcohol). A Marine sentry was also posted, just as there was always one outside the spirit room. Mind you, it was a Victory guide that told me that a 'square meal' was so called because it was served on a square plate, which is also untrue.

On the earlier subject of lemon juice, it was not used as a preventative for scurvy at this time. It was issued by the surgeon to sailors who presented the symptoms of scurvy, and so it was a medicine. It was thought by some that it was the acidic nature that cured/prevented scurvy, and because limes were avaiable from English growers in the West Indies, limes would be cheaper and more effective. Unfortunately neither was true! Compulsory lime juice rations in the Royal Navy date from the early 1860s and extended to all British Sailors by the Merchant Shipping Act 1867.

Most people think that the diet of Nelson's sailors was particularly poor. Fresh meat and vegetables were issued in harbour and would last the first two weeks or so of a voyage. Ships were stored for up to six months and these stores were used after the fresh rations were used up. Fleets on blockade duty had fresh stores sent out to them to vary the diet, and the purser could buy fresh rations (if available) when the ship put into any port temporarily. The preserved stores of biscuit, salt meat, dried peas, oatmeal, cheese, butter, suet, flour, raisins and small beer (nearly a gallon a day!), or wine or spirits provided up to 5000 calories a day!

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: pavane
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 08:39 AM

I would expect that whistles and pipes would have been much more effective than concertinas, melodeons and even fiddles, due to the more piercing nature of the sound.


By the way, I have seen it said in various places that

a) The names for Limes and Lemons were reversed in some places, so that limes were the yellow ones, and lemons green

b) Limes (green) have much less vitamin C than lemons (yellow)

c) Due to the confusion, we were using the wrong ones

Can anyone give the true facts?

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: Les from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 09:43 AM

Lemon juice has 40-60mg per 100g, lime juice has 25-30mg per 100g. As I said the RN was using lemon juice but switched to lime juice, partly because it was thought to be more effective because it was more acidic, and partly because the English planters in the West Indies (a powerful lobby) wanted a market for their limes.

There are (and were) two kinds of lime - the lime we have today (originally the Persian or Tahiti Lime), and the Key Lime which used to be grown in Florida (hence the name) and the West Indies and is still grown in Mexico. Both ripen to yellow (the Key Lime more so) but the limes normally available to us are picked green. Of course, lemons are green before they are yellow and like nearly all fruits will ripen after picking, but I don't know that they were ever picked green.

Incidently I should site the source for some of the information I've provided - 'Feeding Nelson's Navy' by Janet Macdonald (Chatham Publishing).

On the original subject of hornpipe dancing, of course it could be done just to a drum, which was always available courtesy of the Marine Drummer. I imagine that the dancing was more in the style of how hornpipes are danced by folkies today, rather than that silly 'sailors' hornpipe' with the daft motions of climbing up ratlines, hauling ropes etc which looks to me like it was invented ashore.

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 03:27 PM

Les! Not sure when you last visited Victory but it's been a few years since she had real sailors as guides. Know what you mean about their knowledge base though.

Our 'script' had lots of snippets that were 'tall stories' but most of it was thought to be genuine.

I was led to believe that 3 shots in a minute WAS achievable although that was the exception not the norm which was better than one a minute.

Either way it was still yards better than the French and Spanish who had a firing rate of about a shot every 2-3 minutes

Unless we wuz there we'll never know for certain.

One thing! their snipers appear to have been better than ours

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: Les from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 04:52 PM

Yes, quite a few years ago. I was very disappointed to be hurried round by a Leading Seaman, Electronic Warfare Branch, as far as I could tell from his badges. It wasn't his fault that he'd been told what to tell us, but it was quite a lot of tall stories unsupported by any real historical research. It wasn't you was it?

Perhaps the misunderstanding about rate of fire came about because it was reckoned that a well-trained musketeer could get off three rounds a minute. Even when 'exercising at the great guns' in calm weather three shots in five minutes was considered good going, and that was with nobody shooting back. The Admiralty didn't allow much powder and shot for practice, so this was mostly done 'in dumb show', with, no doubt, the Gun Captain shouting 'Bang!' at the appropriate moment. You couldn't time this exercise properly because there would be no recoil. Even dedicated captains such as the celebrated Broke of the Shannon would have been happy with a sustained rate of three in five, which is far better than any of our enemies ever did, with the notable exception of the Americans.

It was bad fortune that Victory ended up next to Capitaine Lucas' Redoubtable the only ship in the Combined Fleet with a reputation for fighting ability and well-trained marksmen.

Sorry to keep going on. Bit of a pet subject of mine!

Les

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: Melani
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 05:00 PM

I was aboard the Victory in May, 2007, and the woman I spoke to was definitely a uniformed sailor. My point is that she didn't know the story at all, even to tell me it wasn't true.

My info on lime (or lemon) juice comes from "Nelson's Blood: the Story of Naval Rum," by A.J. Pack, Kenneth Mason, pub., 1982. It said Admiral Vernon "strongly encouraged" the mixing of sugar and juice with the water and rum. He came up with the idea of watering down the straight stuff when he noticed that less guys fell out of the rigging that way. The juice and sugar may have just been for flavor. By the 1780's, Sir Gilbert Blane was recommending that everyone be issued citrus juice, not just the sick, but in the way of all bureaucracies, the Royal Navy didn't act on it for many years.

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 03:36 PM

hell's Bell's Les!

Ye knaah aah think you'm reet - Lookin' through me old paperwork aah cannit find the bit that aah wez sure was there aboot timings.

However, now you mention the 3 musket shots in a minute THAT's prob'ly what set me off.

If that's the case there was 12 very sweaty and achin' matelots in 1979 that will kick my a*se if they ever catch me!

Hey but we must've done canny te gerrit turned round in 42 seconds - even with a plastic gun! - Mebbe times addled me there an' aall - Mebbe it wez 42 minutes!!

You are reet aboot them not usin' powder to train but there was much rivalry between guns crews to get the fastest turn roond.

Aah look forward te hevvin' a jar an' a chin-wag wi' ye sometime

Subject: RE: hornpipes and sailors
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 05:16 PM

I've always understood that what's come to recognised as "the Sailor's Hornpipe" was a product of 1830's stage melodramas and adopted by naval PTI's for the torture of Shotley Orphans as part of ceremonial display.
However, there appears to have been a pipe "hands to dance and skylark" in the sailing navy, ordering a period of vigorous dancing and rough horseplay which was believed, by Captain Bligh amongst others, to help prevent scurvy. The fiddler was usually carried as a sickbay hand; the drummer / fife player would likely have been a marine I suppose.