BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 07:42 PM

Yeah. Kinda makes the truth almost, uh, reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 07:41 PM

But how do these stupid stories get started? It's just like the Jessica Lynch thing. She seemed genuinely embarrassed when she found out what they had been saying about her.
                So when the truth finally comes out, the public loses confidence in both the military spokesmen and the press.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:53 PM

I suppose that Down syndrome is a good choice, at least its a better choice than someone with OCD or bi polar disorder or even....
oops I guess I missed the point.

There seems to nothing more upibiquitous than news reports saying "Today 62 were killed by a suicide bomber in Iraq, now lets go to Heather for the traffic update"

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 04:54 PM

But now that they didn't use women with down syndrome it makes them salt of the earth bombers. Good guys almost.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 04:47 PM

"The 36-year-old lady had schizophrenia and depression."

Nice people.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 04:12 PM

US: Bombers Didn't Have Down Syndrome
By BRADLEY BROOKS

Associated Press Writer

The U.S. military said Wednesday that two women used as suicide bombers in attacks earlier this month had undergone psychiatric treatment but there is no indication they had Down syndrome as Iraqi and U.S. officials initially had claimed.

Rear Adm. Gregory Smith, a military spokesman, said the women used in the Feb. 1 pet market bombings had been identified as residents from the northeastern outskirts of Baghdad who were in their late 20s or early 30s.

The two attacks killed nearly 100 people, and Iraqi and U.S. officials said at the time the women appeared to be unwitting attackers.

Lt. Gen. Abboud Qanbar, the chief Iraqi military commander in Baghdad, said soon after the attacks that photos of the women's heads showed they had Down syndrome, but he did not offer any other proof.

A U.S. military spokesman for the Baghdad area, Lt. Col. Steve Stover, also said at the time that medical experts with his division had examined the photos and agreed the women probably suffered from the genetic disorder. "They were both females and they both looked like they had Down syndrome," Stover said on Feb. 2.

A cell phone image of one of the heads viewed by The Associated Press was inconclusive.

There was speculation that the heads could have been distorted by the blast, leading police initially to believe they had Down syndrome.

On Wednesday, Smith backed away from the claim about Down syndrome while responding to a question concerning the psychiatric histories of the two bombers.

"Both had recently received psychiatric treatment for depression and/or schizophrenia. From what we know now there's no indication that they had Down syndrome," Smith said, citing records obtained by the military.

Smith also said one of the women was married but that neither had criminal backgrounds. He said it was not clear how they were linked to al-Qaida in Iraq, which the military has said was behind the bombing.

The director of the Ibn-Rushd psychiatric teaching hospital in central Baghdad, Dr. Shalan al-Abboudi, said that one of the pet market bombers, a 36-year-old married woman, had been treated there for schizophrenia and depression, according to her file. Refusing to identify her, he said she received electric shock therapy and was released into the custody of an aunt.

Smith did not address other details of the bombings. Iraqi officials have said the explosives were detonated by remote-control, presumably because people with Down syndrome could not be relied upon to set off the bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 04:09 PM

Would you like to provide a link to the story or did you just feel the need to take another cheap shot at religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:52 PM

They're now saying the women were not victims of Down Syndrome, so it must have just been addiction to religion as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: GUEST,North Carolina
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 02:10 PM

Clearly propaganda. Many such stories came out of Europe during World War two. No doubt the Bush mudcat supporters will find it truthful.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 01:40 AM

Well said, Kent.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Kent Davis
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 12:32 AM

Naive fool that I am, I expected, when Wesley S started this thread, that there would be discussion but no disagreement.

I believe it is clear to us all that at least 68 out of the 70 people killed by the bombers did not consent to their deaths.

I believe it is equally clear that those who carried the bombs were IN NO SENSE martyrs. They may have been unwitting victims. They may have been terrrorists. Clearly they were not martyrs, for they were not defending Islam. They were not attacking infidels. They were not seeking to attack military targets. They were deliberately targeting MOSLEM CIVILIANS.

No doubt the sins of the U.S. and U.K. governments and of their people are many. No doubt they, and we, need to be criticised on many points. One would think, however, that the only proper response to THIS incident would be criticism of those who carried it out.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 09:02 PM

Same back to you, lady.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 08:55 PM

btw - I will now refer to Peace as 'Piece' when replying to his not so peaceful comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 08:43 PM

If you 'read between the lines', you begin to understand that comments like probably and resembled does not amount to fact. I hope that most of you will begin to recognize propaganda and misleading statements before you jump on the emotional bandwagon.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Nickhere
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 08:09 PM

That's a good one - I hadn't heard that before.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:30 PM

Nearest analogy I can think of is the old one about grabbing a raccoon by the tail. It's easy enough to do, but ya need six people to help you let it go.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Nickhere
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:26 PM

Indeed. The older I get the more I come to the conclusion that the best way to end a war is not to start it in the first place. Once started, wars seem to take on a dynamic of their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:20 PM

True.

Iraq is a mess, no doubt. I miss the people who used to pst here who said the USA would be out of Iraq in 2005.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Nickhere
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:19 PM

Teribus "I most certainly do see the difference in unprincipled and unscrupulous religious nutters deliberately kidnapping, or conning, unwitting mentally challenged people into carrying explosives into a market place crammed with innocent civilians only to have those same unprincipled and unscrupulous religious nutters deliberately detonate those explosives from afar"

Sounds like an exact description of the White House neo-cons!! ;-))

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Nickhere
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:16 PM

"No point talkin' morals in a whore house"

No, no-one's likely to pay much attention. But anyone who goes into a whorehouse to tell their whores to clean up their act needs to be at least behaving in a better fashion to be taken seriously by the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:59 PM

Ditto, Brucie, ditto...

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:57 PM

I figure, however, that every now and then they slip up and tell the truth. I hope this isn't one of those times.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:56 PM

When a US government spokesman admits to torturing people I tend to believe them.

When they say it is only three I reckon they have taken suspects abroad to torture them.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:24 PM

What is so sad, and Sins pointed it out, is that we no longer have any trust left in either our goverenment of the media to tell us the truth...

The lies have come is so fast and furious that if a truth gets reported how would anyone know??? I mean, they just can't go putting little box in the corner of the TV that reads either "Lie" or "Truth"... Who would monitor the box and how wouldbe believe that person either...

Maybem it would be good to have portable poligraphs that starp on the arm of the person who is reporting stuff like the "Downs Symdrome" women and a little box in the corner that gives us a reading as to the probabiltity (in percentage) of the chances that we are being told the truth...

I don't know???

What I do know is that Bush doesn't want any bad news in Iraq... He's is writing checks for buillions and billions of tax dollars to give to Sunni leaders to be sure that there isn't any major bad news and when ya' run that kinda dough thru the Sunni shredder you can't have any slip-ups...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:08 PM

But while we're here, I don't recall saying it WAS fact. I'm like you, I know what I read. That's it.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:05 PM

True, Folkiedave.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 05:54 PM

At this point is there a source of information that any of you would believe?

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 05:46 PM

If you read that report carefully it is all simply speculation except for the US general who turns the Iraqi speculation into fact by a twist of news spin.

I don't know whether these women had Downs syndrome or not or whether they had some other form of mental illness.

I don't KNOW and neither do you.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 03:42 PM

http://www.arabtimesonline.com/client/pagesdetails.asp?nid=11753&ccid=11

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 03:29 PM

if they have resorted to using unwilling mentally handicapped bombers it is pretty cowardly. Although no less cowardly than pushing a button in a plane at a safe distance and bombing people on the ground.. collateral damage..(even if they are women and children)..but its ok cause they didnt mean it..

what's interesting is how over the past year or so the Iraq war has been spun to be a war against AlQaeda in Iraq.. when AlQaeda makes up maybe 2 percent of the insurgency.
And even more laughable was watching McCain and Romney (in the Reagan Library debate) trying to outdo each other on how long they intend the US to stay in Iraq.. when probably 2 thirds of the US population would rather have them out (and certainly over 60% of the Iraqis - who view them as occupiers and legitimate targets).

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 12:53 PM

Eat shit, lady.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 12:49 PM

Its now being reported that this tid-bit was wild speculation based on an examination of the head that was found. Apparently, the woman had facial characteristics similar to those with Downs.

Take a downer, Peace. My earlier reply was in response to Wes. Since you dittoed his remark, I included you in my post. Relax. Its an open discussion. If I respond to your comments, its my choice, not yours. Relax. Smoke another dooby.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 10:17 AM

"Marxist thought on line". Interesting characterisation of the US Defence spokesman I quoted.

As for the difference of being bombed by suicide bombers or a brave pilot risking his life - ask those who are bombed if they can perceive any difference. I doubt if they could - were they still alive to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 09:03 AM

They have some experience of this type of explosion out there.
The head of a suicide bomber is usually launched upwards and is often found well clear of the explosion.
There would be plenty of other forensics, and there were eye witnesses here.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 08:29 AM

I took this story at face value until the news reported within hours of the bombing that they had found the woman's head and this was proof that she was the bomber (the screaming cream seller). Huh? Could she not have been a victim? How did they know she was the bomber? Something just did not ring true.

Sad but true, I believe nothing out of the mouths of politicians or newsmen. There was a time when the news was sacred and presented in factual form rather than editorialized. Now it sells toothpaste.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:33 AM

" But then you can see a difference between Downs syndrome suicide bombers and bombing people with napalm.

I don't." - (Folkiedave)

I most certainly do see the difference in unprincipled and unscrupulous religious nutters deliberately kidnapping, or conning, unwitting mentally challenged people into carrying explosives into a market place crammed with innocent civilians only to have those same unprincipled and unscrupulous religious nutters deliberately detonate those explosives from afar.

At least the pilot carrying out the bombing run is a) Deliberately putting his life on the line to carry out that attack and b) Is attacking a military target that is capable of firing back.

On the "Napalm" hysterics as reported by a forum representing Marxist Thought Online it can be seen that the USMC has used Mk-77 bombs during the initial stages of the conflict in 2003 against military targets and against fortified positions in Fallujah during the assault in 2004, it also notes that the vast majority of civilians had fled Fallujah before fighting began. While the US has signed up to the Convention it has so far refused to sign the Protocol. It is the Protocal that Marxist Thought outlines has been breached, and only then if the munitions were targeted at areas in which there was a known civilian presence. Now I would tend to think that you only ever fire at what you have to, or what you deem to be a threat to your troops. I would doubt very much if large numbers of civilians were present, they most certainly were not in the first reported instance - which was a manned Iraqi observation post in the desert close to the Kuwaiti border.

Exactly where the UK comes into this I don't know. We most definitely have not used these sort of munitions since the 1960's. last recorded use by UK armed forces was during attempts to ignite the oil escaping from the "Torrey Canyon". UK finished with Napalm type weapons while I was still in the navy.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 10:17 PM

I don't recall saying a damned thing to you, lady. Address the people who did. Not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 10:13 PM

Wes, Peace and others - I did not see any reports that radical Islamists wrenched the Downs syndrome child from the parents. Was a kidnapping involved? It seems to me that the parents must have given their consent.

I don't condone this but try to imagine the alternatives from their point of view. Was it a parental decision? If so, what drove them to martyr their child. Could it have been no medical, special services or education and no opportunity for the future? I imagine that raising a disabled child in Iraq is quite a bit different than raising a disabled child in North America.

Before I believe this story, I would have to have the details. I don't think anyone should believe it until the story is reviewed in detail. Just because one person makes a remark and it is reported over and over again, worldwide, does not make it true.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 09:45 PM

Well, fine...

If the reported level of violence is so low in Iraq and Afganistan then let's get the heck out...

Okay???

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 08:47 PM

"as if that makes it moral also"

No point talkin' morals in a whore house.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Nickhere
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 08:45 PM

Keith, if I remember well, the point about Abu Gharib is that the atmosphere and actions were encouraged from the top down. It was not an isolated case of just a few soldiers getting out of hand without their superiors' knowledge. They acted in that manner in the belief that is was the expected thing for them to do. Military people might lose the rag in a moment of panic, in the heat of battle and shoot someone they otherwise wouldn't, but they don't act as they did in Abu Gharib unless they feel scure their actions are approved from the top down.

Hence the guy who exposed Abu Gharib tried to do so anonymously fearful for his carrer at the least and his safety at the most. He wasn't able to remain anonymous for long, but he did try.

Some fall guys took the hit (and they didn't get anything like the treatment they'd meted out to their unfortunate victims) while the bigwigs that encouraged it got off scot-free. Plus the same bigwigs are still trying to re-define torture so they can engage in it qusai-legally (as if that makes it moral also) and don't seem to think waterboarding is torture. This despite the fact that it was a tool of the Inquisition for centuries, and teh admission of a top US military man that if done to him, he would regard it as torture.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 07:07 PM

"The level of violence in both Iraq and Afghanistan is now so low it hardly registers"

Talk about rose-colored glasses...

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 06:51 PM

Teribus - you said The level of violence in both Iraq and Afghanistan is now so low it hardly registers, much less than Northern Ireland in the mid-1970's.

I merely pointed out that it was an odious, wrong and idiotic comparison. What you said was the "level of violence". If you now want to change that to "bomb attacks" I still see no valid comparison. But then you can see a difference between Downs syndrome suicide bombers and bombing people with napalm.

I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 05:55 PM

Folkiedave the comparison holds good with regard to number of bomb attacks being made.

Whatever you do pleased do not quote numbers and imply that Northern Ireland was anything like the lesser conflict, the numbers killed in Northern Ireland were relatively low but that had nothing to do with the paramilitaries lack of trying for far higher counts. What kept the numbers down was the service to the community as a whole provided by the Police, the Security Services and the Emergency Services.

The point I am making is that Al-Qaeda in Iraq must be really flush with volunteers fully prepared to take on the foreign invader if it has to kidnap, or con, the mentally challenged to perform the role as "Suicide Bomber" (Martyr as dianavan terms it). Hells teeth the brave and gallant Jihadist bastards who set them up didn't even have the guts to steer them towards what ever they could describe as a legitimate military/Police target.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 05:31 PM

Ditto what Wes said.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 04:55 PM

"I'm trying to imagine what I would do as a parent if I was living in a worn torn country with a Down's syndrome child. What future would this child have?"

Well - as the parent of a special needs child - autism - not Down Syndrome - I can assure you that I would rip the heart out of anyone who tried to use my child to further their political agenda. Simple as that.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 04:37 PM

I'm trying to imagine what I would do as a parent if I was living in a worn torn country with a Down's syndrome child. What future would this child have? If I were a radical Muslim, I might believe it was better that the child die a martyr than die of starvation or disease.

I don't really know what I would do.

I'm also not at all sure if this story is true. It should definitely be re-examined.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 04:22 PM

The level of violence in both Iraq and Afghanistan is now so low it hardly registers, much less than Northern Ireland in the mid-1970's

Of course it is possible to choose particular periods and claim some sort of comparison. But let's scotch this myth before it starts.

The current level of US (NB US only) deaths in Iraq is just below 4,000.

http://icasualties.org/oif/US_chart.aspx

That chart shows the deaths month by month - they have not been especially high but not "so low it hardly registers" as Teribus claims. The deaths are close in numbers to those at the start of the conflict - see chart.

There were 14 military deaths in Afghanistan in January. (7 US, 7 others).

Current documented civilian deaths (almost certainly an underestimate) are over 80,000 in Iraq and they are going down - but NOT "so low it hardly registers".

The Northern Ireland conflict between 1969 and peace had a TOTAL of 3523. Soldiers and civilians.

Not a good comparison I would suggest.

I happen to think using a Downs syndrome woman as a suicide bomber is a despicable act of cowardice.

I happen to think using napalm on a civilian population is also a despicable act of cowardice. Lying about it makes it worse.

"Defense Minister, Adam Ingram, admitted that the US had misled the British high-command about the use of napalm, but he would not comment on the extent of the cover up. The use of firebombs puts the US in breach of the 1980 Convention on Certain Chemical Weapons (CCW) and is a violation the Geneva Protocol against the use of white phosphorous, "since its use causes indiscriminate and extreme injuries especially when deployed in an urban area."

I reckon both sides are as bad as one another. Let's condemn them both eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 04:06 PM

Nickhere,
Abhu Ghraib involved the mistreatment of some prisoners.
It was carried out behind locked doors and high walls, and still it was exposed, and some perpetrators punished.
Here, a hundred are killed and hundreds more injured in a public place, with hundreds of witnesses ,in the full glare of publicity, and as has been said, in a way certain to attract the attention of the world's media.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Nickhere
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 03:32 PM

"It would be exposed at once and bring ruin and disgrace to the perpetrators"

Yes, just as the Abu Gharib scandal brought ruin and disgrace all the way up to Rumsfeld. Why, even Bush was quaking in his seat for a while there, afraid his head would roll too, along with the fall guys.