Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Jeanie
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:08 PM

Charlotte (Molecatcher's apprentice) - you appear to be totally misunderstanding what I have been saying here.

I am talking about the introductory song to a fictionalized television series. I am not talking about a concert performance by a named performer, performing as themselves (i.e. Kate Rusby performing as Kate Rusby). Of course, in that situation, there would be no need or question of her toning down her regional accent because yes, I agree with you totally: that is what makes her "her", it characterizes her as the unique individual that she is. The same would apply to any performer performing as themselves, and quite rightly so.

But we're not talking about that, are we ?
This is about a piece of music (in this case a song) being used as a tool to introduce a piece of drama. In that context, the music serves the drama. In my opinion, the music does not best serve as an apt introduction to the drama which is to follow. The introductory music is as much a part of the drama as the actors and performers within it. Of course, actors will tone down their own way of speaking if it is at odds with the content of the piece. There is absolutely nothing wrong in toning down in that context - in fact, it is absolutely right. (How would it be to have Maggie Smith, for example, playing a lady from New Orleans but speaking in her own native Scots accent ??)

It is immaterial who is singing the introductory song. It matters not one jot to the drama whether we know or recognize who the singer is or not. What is key is whether the voice/accent used suits what is to come. It's a dramatic tool - not a concert performance by a named performer.

My view on things is from the perspective of the presentation of a drama and its effectiveness.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:36 PM

As has been pointed out the accents of the other characters vary, and this is presumably intentional. Not everyone in the place they were born and brought up in, even in rural England lives.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:40 PM

didn't someone say somewhere or other that very few rural people can actually afford to live where they were born?

Charlotte (brussel sprouts as part of dinner tonight)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:45 PM

"you appear to be totally misunderstanding what I have been saying here."

No why oh why did I know you were going to say that? *LOL*



"My view on things is from the perspective of the presentation of a drama and its effectiveness"

my view on this is, it's just television therefore there's little need to be so serious about it...a pleasant way to spend some time.

Charlotte (a rural prospect from Ma and Pa's piano stool

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Jeanie
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:56 PM

Mcgrath - I don't know how much *intention* has actually been applied to "Jam & Jerusalem" compared with a lot of other, better, TV comedy dramas. As I've said before, it all seems rather vague and woolly around the edges to me and a contrived vehicle for the actors/performers.

(Charlotte: as a total aside, I heard on the radio the other day about a man called Russell who changed his surname to Sprout, just for the fun of it !)

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Jeanie
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 03:02 PM

I had to be serious, Charlotte, in response to the comments you made to me in your post of 11.44 AM.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 03:32 PM

Charlotte

Yes - you were pretty serious in that previous post! you might not find TV "pleasant" if quite a few people hadn't put quite a lot of serious effort and thought into it...

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Cuddles
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:17 PM

It's just a TV series folks. I mean...come ON. Lighten up here and get off Charlotte's back, at she's bringing some humour into this thread.

Are you really saying that only people from the south west can now sing, appear, perform in south west productions or programmes that are about the south west then? Are you saying that only Yorkshire singers can perform any theme tunes to programmes set in Yorkshire?

How long do you have to have lived in said areas to qualify for this?
Seven generations or more? Or 'just moved in last week, eee it's loovley 'ere in't it!"

I think this is really stretching a very pedantic point.

It doesn't confuse me at all, I know they have a Yorkshire lass singing the theme tune to Jam & Jerusalem, and singing it very well.

End of story.

Or is it?

To be continued.........................................

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:23 PM

Cuddles I seem to recognise your style, have you ever been to Sidmouth?
G.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:24 PM

"just" And an egg is just an egg, but that does not mean that it is irrelevant to consider its qualities when it comes to eating.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Cuddles
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:26 PM

How kind of you. I do have 'style' even if I say so myself.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Cuddles
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:34 PM

""just" And an egg is just an egg, but that does not mean that it is irrelevant to consider its qualities when it comes to eating."

I have to confess that I have never compared a TV theme tune with eating an egg, nor any other type of food. I do not 'savour' theme tunes in quite that way, nor do I lose sleep over wrong accents in wrong geographical places.

It really is not important in my life, sure as eggs are eggs.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:41 PM

I don't think anyone has said they are losing any sleep over all this. Is the implication that discussion should be reserved to matters of extreme urgency?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:42 PM

I don't have an opinion, haven't seen it, not that bothered.

But if we're talking about getting off people's back, I just think someone should get off Jeanie's back... not nice. :)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:49 PM

"Cuddles I seem to recognise your style, have you ever been to Sidmouth?"

and this has what, exactly. to do with the thread? I mean apart from the series and Sidmouth being in the West Country of England

Charlotte (fishing out the Roget's Thesarus)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Jeanie
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:52 PM

Cuddles - no, if you read my posts carefully, you will see that I am most definitely NOT saying that "only people from the South West can now sing, appear, perform....etc....in productions that are about the South West."

I am getting on no-one's back, Cuddles. Comments were directed towards me in a post at 11.44 AM (certainly not containing "some humour") and I responded, properly and politely, as I am now doing to you.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:52 PM

Molecatcher, Giok is speculating that Cuddles is actually a banned member named Lizzie Cornish, who comes from Sidmouth, and who sometimes adopts a false identity to get round her banned status.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Cuddles
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:55 PM

Not at all, but some things can become over-pedantic.

Kate Rusby is merely singing the theme tune to Jam & Jerusalem, so what for heaven's sake?

This thread started with a positive comment about Kate, the song, her voice, the series etc. It's degenerated into a 'regionalism' politically correct soap opera, in my eyes at least.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll leave you to be pedantic, insult Dawn French (yet again) and generally whinge on, whilst I go and watch some more episodes of the series and thoroughly enjoy myself, as I sing along with Kate.

I may or may not, also decide to join The Women's Institute, although I'd draw the line at being asked to appear in The Calendar, unless of course, it was for The Loose Women's Insitute Calendar.

Now there's a thought!

Strawberry Jam 4 Ever!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:56 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah she's good at what she does, but I think it's a shame that all the young folkie girls starting out want to sound like her. I suppose she's quite a good role model but I agree, Vive la differance.

And I still maintain she sounds like a 12 year old.

I have my coat on now.....

Ms. Sourpuss

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Cuddles
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:02 PM

To avoid confusion, my post there was in answer to MgGrath's above.

Cuddles is my name Ruth Archer and Cuddles is my nature, unlike some.

Now I'm off to search for my sticky buns with the extraordinarily large cherries on the top, then settle down to some more of the lovely and very pretty Dawn French.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:02 PM

I'm still trying to fit "an egg is just an egg" to the tune of As Time Goes By. (Damn, where is Greg Stephens when you need him for a rhyme? ... you must remember, Greg, an egg is just an egg...)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Jeanie
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:07 PM

Nice one, Bonnie !

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:09 PM

"Cuddles is my name"

Course it is, love. Mind if we call you Cud?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Appretince
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:17 PM

"And I still maintain she sounds like a 12 year old."

I have no real opinion of Kate Rusby either way, but at least she has a sound (regardless of what it may be) rather than being one of the many, many cookie-cutter created singers that seem to inhabit most genres of music these days.

Charlotte (somewhere ova the rainbow)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:29 PM

French toast or omelettes
Never out of date
Eat them with bacon
Listening to Kate
Woman needs man
And man must have a plate...

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Cuddles
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:34 PM

(somewhere ova the rainbow)

Now that's good! Bonnie, you have to use that somewhere in your song.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 06:03 PM

I wasn/t really annoyed Backwoodsman, just going for comedic effect... I know you're not like that. Funny thing, neither is Sally.

And festival season is coming, and there will be hot days...

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:46 PM

And eggs is especially eggs on Pancake Tuesday this week!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: harpmolly
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 11:24 PM

Deep cleansing breaths...

(breaking my vow to stay out of this thread)

mslemon...obviously and admittedly you're doing your best to stir the pot. Good for you. However, this "I think she sounds like a 12 year old" business...I can't help but feel that more specific complaints are needed. For example, I have a growth hormone deficiency, and as a result am 4'9" (at age 32), extremely youthful in appearance, and yes, still sound like a 12-year-old. However, I am told by many people that I have a beautiful and enjoyable voice. (I am not saying that to be vain, but to make a point). So I don't see why that in and of itself is your idea of a dig. You could say, "Her voice is high and squeaky and has no depth or maturity to it," for example; I don't agree, but at least I would concede that was a valid opinion.

As big a fan of Kate's as I am, I concede that her delivery and arrangements can occasionally drift into snoozeville. But I think when she's good, she's very very good. And I still have a hard time understanding how a girl who has grown up steeped in the folk tradition, has paid her dues to the folk community, and has done an amazing amount to promote folk music to the world can be instant thread poison here on the Mudcat. People seem to take perverse pleasure in turning any Kate Rusby-related thread into some sort of snipefest. I don't get it.

Of course everyone is entitled to his or her opinion...that's a given. But people should remember that they *can and will* be judged on HOW they choose to express their opinions.

/rant off.

Molly

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: nager
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 04:56 AM

Well said Molly!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:24 AM

"People seem to take perverse pleasure in turning any Kate Rusby-related thread into some sort of snipefest. I don't get it."

People will be people, Molly, and the Tall Poppy syndrome alive and well. Such reactions don't surprise me (my distance from age 32 may be linked to that). What with that, and the natural difference in tastes, disagreements are the norm; and when communicated in writing, without body language to help, misunderstanding and offence-taking too.

I really don't think Ms Lemon was being "12-year-old-ist" or any other kind of "-ist", it was just her way of expressing the impression she has of Kate's voice. Let's not make more of that than (I believe) was originally intended.

But to get back to Kate, I think it's great that she's making inroads into wider-than-folk areas. At the end of the day, she is an artist, and free to go where her muse takes her and jump whatever fences are on her way. We, or the "folk world" (whatever that might be), don't own her. Neither did she get there purely by excellent management, promotion and backing. All that did was give her some more chances. Her talents are doing the rest. We can like where she goes and what she does, or not. We can observe and follow with interest or grouch. That should mean bugger all to her, and good luck to her in her endeavours.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: AllanW
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:24 AM

I'm not sure I get this criticism of Kate Rusby's voice.

Surely there's room in the world for her distinctive voice, even if she does sound younger than her actual age. I enjoy having the rich canvas of different voices available to me, the more the better I'd say.

Once again it's not the whining on about Kate's voice I object to, it's the fact that people won't admit it's her popularity that really gets up their noses.

My objection to Miss Rusby is that since she recorded VGPS I can no longer sing it in clubs! That was MINE Missy!! hehe

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:35 AM

It's a cracking song. When I heard it accompanying the titles, it rang a bell, but it must have been 30+ years since I had heard the Kinks' version so had forgotten that it was a Ray Davies song; this thread reminded me. Now, there's a songwriter I truly admire and wish I could emulate, finding just the right phrases and tunes to use for emotional effect and writing about ordinary folks' lives.

Hat off to RD, and to KR for an excellent cover.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: AllanW
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 06:11 AM

Couldn't agree more George. Mind you, I'm steering clear of discussions about The Kinks here as the last time I mentioned them it prompted me to vanish from Mudcat for three years. Remember the quote Richard "Goodbye, with the emphasis on GOOD"?

For nostalgic purposes I re-visited that thread and realised that I was getting my knickers in a knot over nothing. How could I have seriously been worried about discussing music with someone who said "I have remembered the name of that Cuban guitarist now, Richie Havens" and "I think The Kinks were onstage at Cambridge, or it may have just been one of them"

Anyone who was at Cambridge that year must have been in a coma if they had any doubt who was on stage!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 06:50 AM

I'm not a Kate Rusby fan and I think her version of The Village Green Preservation society is excellent as is her version of Who Knows Where the Time Goes.
Jeanie needs to get her head out of her arse, it's the theme song, not part of the show, so why should Kate tone down her accent ? she comes from Barnsley and is proud of it.

By the way, Cuddles can't be Lizzie Cornish, her posts are far too short and she hasn't mentioned Show of Hands once.

eric

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 06:52 AM

Eric, have a look at Cuddles' other posts...

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Jeanie
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 07:26 AM

Eric, that was a very rude remark you directed towards me (06.50 AM).

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions, as I am, also.
I am looking from the point of view of effective programme-making, not from the point of view of a someone listening to a song, in isolation, by a named performer.

We are looking from different persoectives. We beg to differ. Civility and courtesy cost nothing.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 07:48 AM

I like Kate Rubsy. Her albums are a bit samey but her shows are good and she's got a lovely voice. I think there's room on the folk scene for a voice like hers.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Cuddles
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 07:58 AM

"Eric, have a look at Cuddles' other posts..."

It would seem the only person who is interested is you Ruth. Obviously there is some sort of 'vendetta' going on here, to which I am not a party, therefore I'd be grateful if you would take your problems elsewhere, this is a music forum. Thanks.


I too love Kate's version of the song. There is also perhaps a deeper irony here than Ray Davies possibly meant when he wrote the song, where he was perhaps poking fun at those in the song, and that being that so much of what he wrote about is now disappearing.

I've taken the lyrics from the Jam & Jerusalem link above and all I'll say is "God save the village green' indeed!

'The Village Green Preservation Society' by Ray Davies

"We are the Village Green Preservation Society
God save Donald Duck, Vaudeville and Variety
We are the Desperate Dan Appreciation Society
God save strawberry jam and all the different varieties

Preserving the old ways from being abused
Protecting the new ways for me and for you
What more can we do

We are the Draught Beer Preservation Society
God save Mrs. Mopp and good Old Mother Riley
We are the Custard Pie Appreciation Consortium
God save the George Cross and all those who were awarded them

We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular
Hell take Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula
We are the Office Block Persecution Affinity
God save little shops, china cups and virginity

We are the Skyscraper condemnation Affiliate
God save tudor houses, antique tables and billiards
Preserving the old ways from being abused
Protecting the new ways for me and for you
What more can we do

God save the Village Green.

[Ray Davies]


Perhaps the WI needs to take over the country! :-)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: GUEST,Eleanor Roosevelt's knickers
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:00 AM

Yes, Cuddles is definitely Lizzie Cornish. It's not just that she mentions Show of Hands (but not Seth Lakeman?), it's the vocabulary that she uses. She only knows three adjectives. Plus all the exclamation marks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:05 AM

Oh,she mentions Seth Lakeman elsewhere as well.

"Obviously there is some sort of 'vendetta' going on here, to which I am not a party, therefore I'd be grateful if you would take your problems elsewhere, this is a music forum. Thanks."

ROFL!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Cuddles
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:08 AM

I do apologise, I hadn't realised you weren't supposed to use exclamation marks in here. I merely use them to emphasise something, as in humour in my final remark about the WI above. This thread itself has 4 exclamation marks in the title I should point out, and you've made no mention of that.

Again, there is obviously a personal vendetta going on here, which I am unaware of. Surely it would be more gracious for you to take that elsewhere, if you are into vendettas of course, and keep to the subject matter of the thread.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:09 AM

I think George's 05.40 post is spot on. I don't like Kate's voice, does nothing for me, but each to their own. We should be celebrating our differences in taste, etc, not arguing about them.......what a boring world it would be if we all liked the same things!

And I still think Jeanie has a point.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Cuddles
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:13 AM

"Oh,she mentions Seth Lakeman elsewhere as well."

As do many others.

You have a problem lady, get over it and get off my back.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:15 AM

oh, come on, lizzie. Don't be shy.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Cuddles
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:15 AM

"I think George's 05.40 post is spot on. I don't like Kate's voice, does nothing for me, but each to their own. We should be celebrating our differences in taste, etc, not arguing about them.......what a boring world it would be if we all liked the same things!"

Exactly Sue, well said.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: secbird
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:58 AM

Love the series, love the actors, love the music, the Kinks and Kate.

Hate people on here who have nothing better to do but constantly slag off good old light entertainment.

If you dont like it turn it off - dont listen, dont look, and stop bloody moaning.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: Willa
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 10:27 AM

Harpmolly Thanks for the link to your video; wonderful stuff! i urge other catters to listen.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 10:51 AM

C!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby sings Sandy Denny !!!!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 11:03 AM

I just did, Willa - indeed, a gorgeous rendition, but I will disagree with Molly about one thing: She definitely does not sound like a 12-year-old. Too much maturity in the interpretation for that. Sorry Molly, you're simply blessed with a high, clear range that others would break an arm for. If ever you meet up with Willa, make sure to sing a duet; hers is another voice I love, and unfortunately haven't heard for almost 3 years now... My loss.