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BS: US in Kosovo
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Subject: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Feb 08 - 10:02 AM If I was a Serbian national, I'd be trying to burn down the American embassy too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Metchosin Date: 23 Feb 08 - 11:25 AM Believing is easy, Thinking is hard. That's why there are so many believers in the world and so few thinkers. Unfortunately it would seem that the folks that have come up with US foreign policy, in the past decade or so, have behaved like an ADD kid going around poking sharp sticks in hornet's nests. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Metchosin Date: 23 Feb 08 - 11:39 AM ........and I've demonstrated this aptly by bothering to post a comment to this thread. LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: artbrooks Date: 23 Feb 08 - 01:04 PM The roots of the conflict in Kosovo go back at least 600+ years, to the great battle in 1389. The current troubles descend directly from the Yugoslavian government's decision, precipitated by the Serbian majority, to rescind Kosovo's autonomy after Tito's death and redesignate the region as a province of Serbia. Serbia, in turn and especially after the rise of the nationalist leader Slobodon Melosovich (sp?), took active steps to suppress the Albanian majority (by, among other things, imposing direct rule from Serbia proper, banning Albanian as an official language and effectively closing Kosovo's only university) and to encourage Serbs to relocate to their "ancestral homeland". Active warfare broke out between the Kosovars and the Serbs in 1996. NATO, perhaps visualizing a repeat of the war in Bosnia and Croatia that had recently ended (and maybe feeling some guilt for not stopping it before it became the bloody mess that it did) declared peace in early 1999. It is entirely untrue that either the air war or the introduction of peacekeepers on the ground (KFOR) was an American military operation, although US forces were certainly major participants. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Feb 08 - 02:23 PM The 600 year history of Kosovo has little to do with US involvement. The reality is, President Clinton, desperate to get Monica Lewinsky's picture off the front pages of the newspapers pressured NATO to engage in a bombing campaign. Serbian media were calling it "Monica's War" at the time. George W. Bush, happy to have something at hand to irritate the Russians, simply continued and escalated the situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: artbrooks Date: 23 Feb 08 - 03:15 PM Interesting point of view. Lewinsky was long off of the front pages in the US by that time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: number 6 Date: 23 Feb 08 - 04:59 PM Ringslinger ... I think your getting "Monica's War" mixed up with the December 1998 air bombardment ..... this four-day bombing campaign occurred at the same time the U.S. House of Representatives was conducting the impeachment hearing Clinton. Clinton was impeached on December 19, the last day of this air bombing campaign. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: number 6 Date: 23 Feb 08 - 05:00 PM Air bombrdment of Baghdad BTW |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Feb 08 - 05:50 PM This from AIM, is pretty much the way I remember it. ...as Communist rule weakened, Slobodan Milosevic, a Serb, became the President of Serbia, only to crack down on the Albanian extremists bent on seeking independence through force of arms which led to bloody confrontations in 1998 between the Serbian troops and the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), a largely Albanian terrorist outfit. A ceasefire negotiated by NATO fell apart, setting the stage for the NATO air strikes that started in March 1999, designed to bring Milosevic to heel. ...(US) participation in the effort was premised on our being part of NATO; we ignored Russian arguments in favor of the Serbs. Some have called this "Monica's War" because it came soon after the Clinton impeachment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: artbrooks Date: 23 Feb 08 - 06:21 PM An awful lot happened leading up to those "bloody confrontations". I'd recommend Kosovo, A Brief History by Noel Malcolm for a good historical review - I'd add that "Brief" is a dirty lie. Malcolm is pretty neutral; he dislikes both the Serbs and the Kosovars. I think it goes up to about 1996. BTW, I'd say that AIM is about as objective a news source as the NY Times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Feb 08 - 08:38 PM Yes, a lot led up to the confrontations, but they wouldn't be burning the US embassy now, if the US hadn't butted in to begin with. It had no interest there, and it had no business there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Kent Davis Date: 23 Feb 08 - 11:26 PM You tell 'em, Riginslinger. That bad ol' U.S. is always butting in, butting in just like it did back in 1917 and again in 1941. If you were a German, would you be trying to burn down the American embassy there? Kent |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:18 AM Did the US have an interest in 1917 and 1941? It had none in Kosovo, and only made the situation worse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:40 AM These days, I get most my news coverage from online sources, and the main one I use is Democracy Now. If you go to their website & watch the streaming video on the Kosovo story, it is almost bizarre beyond belief, in that believers vs thinkers vein. There is an interview with Samantha Powers, a brilliant woman who wrote a Pulitzer prize winning book about genocide, and Jeffrey Scahill, an indie reporter who works for Democracy Now, the Nation, the Progressive, etc etc, who is every bit as smart as Samantha Powers. Now, at the time Samantha Powers book on genocide came out, I listened to her a lot, and read the book. I found her very well informed, if not a little too Harvard "we define what a genocide is, what an atrocity is". I didn't agree with everything she said, and I certainly am not comfortable letting Harvard scholars define genocide and atrocity for the rest of the world, so I didn't think she was perfect, or anything. But she was one of the few academics who got out of their cozy Cambridge offices and actually went into the field to do their research, and come to some very provocative conclusions. That was back in 2003. Fast forward to 2008, and I can't for the life of me figure out where she is coming from anymore, and why Jeffrey Scahill is making mincemeat out of her in the interview. Suddenly she is defending the NATO war in Kosovo in ways she never did before, she is denying that what is occurring in Iraq at the hands of the US military occupation qualifies as genocide, and on and on. I was absolutely gobsmacked by what seemed to be a 180 by her, and I couldn't figure out why an academic and a writer would do that. Spoiler note, in case any of you intend to go watch the interview. At the beginning of the interview, Amy Goodman did give a disclaimer that Powers was now working for the Obama campaign. However, I missed the very first part of the interview when she said that, so I was listening to Powers, just stunned. While I couldn't recall exactly what her positions were from the previous times I had heard her and what she had said in her book, it did seem to me she was practically denouncing much of what she herself had been saying just a few years ago. So, off googling I went, and that was when I discovered the roots to her turnaround: she has gone into presidential politics with Obama. But man, I was really disappointed to see it. Not that she is on his team, but that the woman was so opportunistic on such a big issue as genocide. She was spinning so madly, it showed. Rarely have I ever seen that kind of sell out before my very eyes. She is still as smart as ever, of course. But like I said, Jeffrey Scahill made mincemeat out of her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:23 AM "I was absolutely gobsmacked by what seemed to be a 180 by her," Sounds Irish. That's one of the funny things about Kosovo and American politics. Because Bill Clinton hailed it as a triumph, one would have thought that Dubya would have been down on it. But it gave him a chance to take a poke at the Russians, and I'd just supposed that that was enough to win him over. Now, what you are saying about Powers doing a 180 on it, tells us where Obama would be with it, but it doesn't really tell us why. One of the most interesting elements of the whole thing, during the build up to bombing the Serbs, Madaline Albright discovered she was Jewish. I always thought that was an interesting side-line event, but I've never been able to connect the dots on that either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:39 AM I never heard the Madeline Albright is Jewish thing. I don't know what it tells us about Obama's position on Kosovo and Serbia either. I just know it sure looks like they decided to support the Clinton administration policy angle, maybe because Obama's campaign is short on foreign policy expertise and Clinton is an expert on her husband's policies. Powers had been very critical of the Clinton administration in her book. Which is why I was so shocked to see her spinning this week's events according to the conventional party wisdom. I just never thought she was that partisan, but I guess I was wrong about that. Which is yet another problem with our current political status quo. All the academics and their think tanks are in the pocket of either the red team or the blue team. We don't have any indie thinkers and policy wonks working inside the Beltway or on the Commons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: number 6 Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:39 AM Oh come on Ringslinger ... "Madaline Albright discovered she was Jewish. I always thought that was an interesting side-line event, but I've never been able to connect the dots on that either."\ That's just total gibberish. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: pdq Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:42 AM "...gave him a chance to take a poke at the Russians..." Russia was an Orthodox Christian country at one time. So were Serbia and Albania. The last thing Russia wants is for Kosovo to fall to the relentless march of Islam. Bosnia, Albania, now Kosovo. On another front, Thailand fell recently. Neither Russia nor China is happy about losing their buffer zones between themselves and Islam. Each step brings the other two superpowers (there are three of us) closer to a full scale war with Islam. When it happen, and it will, it will be ugly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:01 PM And Turkey just invaded Iraq with the US' blessing too. All in the same week. Something very dangerous is afoot, and I really can't suss out what it is Bush/Cheney, Inc. are getting ready to do. But I know it can't be anything good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:00 PM "That's just total gibberish." Maybe, the news media made a great big deal out of it at the time. "Neither Russia nor China is happy about losing their buffer zones between themselves and Islam. Each step brings the other two superpowers (there are three of us) closer to a full scale war with Islam." Any predictions on how it will come out? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:02 PM I too would recommend Noel Malcolm's book for a fairly 'dispassionate' view of the situation in Kosovo. It must be remembered that all ethnic groups in the Balkans have 'mythologised' their histories to a greater or lesser extent. The fact that the battle of Kosovo was fought, between the Serbs and the Ottoman Turks, in 1389, has really got very little real relevance to today's situation - and yet Serb nationalists would have us believe that that battle, together with a few monastries, gives them some sort of absolute right to rule Kosovo and to discriminate against the Albanian majority to the point of ethnic cleansing. We could do without that sort of wicked nonsense in modern Europe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:07 PM It is somewhat similar to the Unionist/Loyalist rule in Ireland--same sorts of triumphalist arguments used to rationalize their hold on power at the expense of the will of the Irish people. The history of genocide in the region isn't the same, of course. Outside the Great Famine, we didn't see death and destruction on the scale in Ireland we have historically in the Balkans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Feb 08 - 05:52 PM For some observers, Kosovo typifies an urgent problem that faces much of the world. You have a lesser developed society with much of its citizenry badly addicted to an ancient superstition that tells them to "go forth and procreate" living next to a more modern society that has recognized the disaster of uncontrolled human population growth. If the growing population is allowed to spill over into the stabilized population, unchecked, progress goes into reverse and there's not much future for anybody. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 06:23 PM No, I don't think that's the trouble in the Balkans this morning. Not even close. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: artbrooks Date: 24 Feb 08 - 06:41 PM Reginslinger, the Kosovars are about as moderate as the Turks as far as their "addiction to an ancient superstition" is concerned...assuming that you are referring to the Muslim religion (which is some 800 years less ancient than the Christian |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Feb 08 - 07:09 PM Yes, of course Islam is more recent than the ancient superstition of Christianity. One's as bad as the other. But Serbia had a more modern social structure and a much lower birth rate than Albania in the years leading up to the Monica Lewinsky fiasco. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: pdq Date: 24 Feb 08 - 08:13 PM Riginslinger, I don't know where it fits in the context of this thread, but never stop bringing up the subject of overpopulation. It is the main source of envionmental problems and many political problems as well. You are correct if you suggest that the least productive people are the most prolific reproducers. Once these people see what others have, they move in and take it. This leads to conflict, even war. Mexicans have been on a crusade to re-populate North America with their kind of people. They were down to about 16 million after their awful Revolution, about 1910-20. They are now up to about 150 million, with over 32 million living un-invited in the United States. Mexico is one of the 10 richest countries on Earth and has more natural beauty (as well as natural resources) than most. They choose to migrate and take what belongs to other. Easier than fixing what is broken. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Feb 08 - 08:28 PM pdq - It's amazing to me how few people seem to realize what's going on. It fits into this thread exactly because of what you say here. There are a number of silimarities between what went on in Kosovo and what is going on in California every day of the week. Lack of understanding, I think, is at the root of the problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 08:31 PM Overpopulation is a major world problem, and the cause of it is most often religion, but also poverty and how many babies it takes to grow to a wage earning age that contributes to the family income in the third world. The answer: lots. Especially when so many end up in child slavery of one sort or another. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: pdq Date: 24 Feb 08 - 08:36 PM Now that we have established that overpopulation is an issue, when will Ralph Nader bring it up? Just asking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 08:40 PM Good question. Why not go to his website and see if he has written about it. If he hasn't, write to him and ask him why not? I know I've heard him speak about it being a major cause of poverty, so I'm guessing you can find what he has to say about specifically somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: pdq Date: 24 Feb 08 - 08:49 PM I think I will do just that. BTW, 'poverty' is "too many people competing for too little wealth" ~ me You can fix the problem with more money or fewer people. Not that I want the current crop of folks reduced, but a huge drop in population growth will lead to more wealth per capita. Eventually. Un-checked population growth will not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 08:56 PM I agree, pdq. But I don't think overpopulation is at the heart of this conflict. It's far more complicated than that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: pdq Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:21 PM True. I was agreeing with Riginslinger 'in general', but trying to point out that Kosovo is not a good example. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:14 PM It's only a good example in so far as the US involvement is concerned, and maybe a decade or so leading up to it. Other countries around Albania have been forced to take their overflow of people, Serbia just acted more forcefully than Macadonia and some of the others did. While we're on the subject, however, have you ever looked into the Sierra Club. They have an ongoing conversation to warn the world about human population growth, but when they are asked about runaway immigration into North America, they refuse to take a position. It's amazing to me. Either they care about the environment or they don't. One would have to assume that they don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Kent Davis Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:45 PM Riginslinger, I thought you condemned the U.S. when it intervened in other countries to further its own interests. Don't you? Yet you condemn the U.S. for intervening in Kosovo on the opposite grounds, on the grounds that it has no interest in Kosovo. Logically, wouldn't that mean that you oppose all U.S. interventions? If that's what you mean, say it. Go ahead and condemn the interventions of 1917 and 1941 too. If you don't condemn those interventions, on what grounds do you condemn the others? Kent |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Feb 08 - 10:17 AM Kent - I condemned the US for involving itself in other countries where it had no interests. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: GUEST,PMB Date: 25 Feb 08 - 12:33 PM You all seem to have forgotten the Bosnian war, which preceded the Kosovo intervention, and probably made it inevitable. After the secession of Slovenia, which was peaceful, racist Serbian nationalists were determined to punish further attempts to break away. This resulted in a nasty war with Croatian nationalists, which the Serbs lost, and the Bosnians, which the Serbs were winning- with well publicised atrocities- until Europe and the US intervened. This was probably the right thing to do; you can't let genocide succeed. But the tactical decision to concentrate on bombing was probably a mistake, though understandable since it's not at all certain that the public would have accepted the casualties inevitable in a physical occupation. Remember that Yugoslavia had organised its entire defence strategy around guerilla warfare, and that every male was trained in the techniques; this explains much of the sheer nastiness of the civil war. But the bombing, particularly of the Danube bridges and the TV station, was an own goal in terms of winning over the non- extremist Serbs, who were forced into the racist camp. Since its defeat in Bosnia, Serbia has been sulking like a wounded pit-bull terrier. The Kosovar rebellion was partly thickheaded nationalist, buit also partly deliberately provoked by Serbs who wanted to take out their frustration on the one minority they had left. The situation is further complicated by the mis- selling by the neocons of a broken model of capitalism to the Russians after the fall of the Soviet Union. The result of mass impoverishment and the rise of a mafiocracy based on looted State property fed boneheaded nationalism there too- added to by the humiliation of seeing former client states like Poland, Latvia, and Estonia treated more favourably by the Americans and Europeans, even when (as in Estonia) they implemented discriminatory policies against ethnic Russians. So the Serbian situatuion is an ideal opportunity for them to infect the nationalist sores in central Europe. America, and much more so Europe, have failed badly in failure to be consistent, to reward social behaviour and punish antisocial behaviour, and to prove that their commitment to democracy and human rights is real. It's not at all clear where to go from here, and starting from somewhere else would have been the better option. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:30 PM At the end of the day, runaway human population growth has to be the greater threat. If it goes too far, the locust effect begins to take hold and we see family planning by machete like we witnessed in Rwanda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: artbrooks Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:38 PM I took a vacation last month. A number of the people along were US citizens of Irish descent, all of whom seemed to have 8 or 10 children or siblings. Let's limit all families to 1 1/2 children and institute involuntary sterilization if necessary. After all, it worked so well for the Chinese... |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 25 Feb 08 - 02:01 PM Riginslinger, Have you actually been to the Balkans? I really don't think that you can call it over-populated. I agree with you that over-population is a key problem in many parts of the world - but not in the Balkans. The claims of Serb nationalists that the INDIGENOUS Albanian population is 'out-breeding' them appears to contain more than a hint of racism to me. The INDIGENOUS Albanian population in Kosovo has just as much right to be there as the Serbs. The comparison with the US and Mexico is completely spurious and irrelevant. Fascistic, ultra-nationalism has had a disastrous history in the Balkans, and the whole of the Eastern Mediterranean region - and many, many thousands of people have died horrible, lingering deaths because of it. In my opinion 'The West' could have done a lot more to squash the re-emergence of such nationalism in the early 1990s (instead they appeased it - what's new?). |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Feb 08 - 04:47 PM "After all, it worked so well for the Chinese..." Depending on your point of view. It certainly put them in the driver's seat as far as emerging economies go. "I agree with you that over-population is a key problem in many parts of the world - but not in the Balkans." Actually, if you throw in human migration, overpopulation is a key problem any place on the planet. If you want to consider global warming, you might even have to include Greenland. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 25 Feb 08 - 05:34 PM Riginslinger - you're talking to a person who, only last night, was accused of being "obsessed with over-population"! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:09 PM I don't think it's possible to be obsessed with over population. The most paranoid individual on the subject is probably the most rational in the end. I think it's possible to appear to be obsessed, but only by folks who haven't taken the time to think the situation through. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Goose Gander Date: 25 Feb 08 - 10:12 PM "Let's limit all families to 1 1/2 children and institute involuntary sterilization if necessary. After all, it worked so well for the Chinese..." Yes, it worked beautifully. Except for all the dead little girls and the millions of young men who will never have wives because of the population imbalance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: artbrooks Date: 25 Feb 08 - 10:25 PM That's called sarcasm, MM. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Kent Davis Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:13 PM The Kosovars certainly seem glad that the U.S. has extended a helping hand, as has the U.K., and as have many other nations. Self-determination is a beautiful thing. It's so much better than imperialism, don't you think? France intervened to help the 13 colonies gain self-determination. We returned the favor in 1917 and again in 1941. The U.S. and the U.K. worked together for that end, just as they did in delivering South Korea and Kuwait. Now we've helped yet another people escape subjection. All foes of imperialism should rejoice! Kent |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:34 AM Kent - Is there any chance you're trying to work out all of the worlds problems from only one side of the equation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 26 Feb 08 - 12:37 PM Riginsliger, Are you being deliberately obtuse or hasn't the real point of this debate sunk in yet? Statements that you have made, like the following: "It's only a good example in so far as the US involvement is concerned, and maybe a decade or so leading up to it. Other countries around Albania have been forced to take their overflow of people, Serbia just acted more forcefully than Macadonia and some of the others did." Lead me to suspect that you think that the Kosovars are Albanians from Albania - they are NOT! They are Albanian speaking NATIVES of Kosovo and have a perfect right to be there. Macedonia also has indigenous people who speak Albanian - and they have a right to be there too. I'm not terribly sure, from your various pronouncements, what your views on Kosovo are - but you appear to have various beefs against over-population and 'illegal immigrants' - neither are relevant in the case of Kosovo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo From: Riginslinger Date: 26 Feb 08 - 02:30 PM This appeared in "Western World Politics" in 2005. However, as time progressed, ethnic Albanians from neighbouring Albania began immigrating en masse to the Serb province of Kosovo. This mass immigration combined with the huge Albanian birth rate, saw the ethnic Albanian population of Kosovo quadruple in less than half a century! If it reminds you of Mexicans in California, I think you're on to something. |
