BS: Health & Safety with a bang!

Subject: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Arnie
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 10:58 AM

Yesterday I went on a compulsory H&S course during which it was impressed on us that the burgeoning UK H&S industry did not want to create a 'cotton-wool' culture in the UK, just protect us from any harm etc.. Today I read that a factory owner in the W.Country, following an arson attack on his premises, has rigged up a cannon to fire a railway sleeper at any intruders. The police are paying him a visit to advise on 'conventional' deterrents. However, the owner says that his cannon is compliant with H&S laws 'cos he's put a rubber block on the business end of the railway sleeper! Made me chuckle anyway. His other deterrent is a full-sized replica Roman catapult with the bucket full of chickenshit. Wonder if he's done a COSHH (Control of Substances Hazardous to the Health) assessment on that?

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 11:55 AM

Sounds good. However, is he located in an area where he could break noise by-laws?

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:01 PM

And here I spend all that money on an alarm system for the Library, when I could have just dug a hole and filled it with chickenshit, which I can get for free from the government....

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:02 PM

This man should be our Prime Minister! :-)

Don't you just hate that word 'compulsory' though? I hear it WAY too often these days. In my book, nothing is compulsory, other than dying.

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:10 PM

Yes Lizzie, I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:56 PM

Taxes, AL, taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: bobad
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:59 PM

And shi defecating.

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 02:15 PM

Yes, but can ya pay yer taxes with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 06:46 PM

Conventional wisdom says who cares if intruders get hurt. Unfortunately the UK law is reasonably clear (by precedent) - if a legitimate person has to gain access - they should not be put in danger. Fire, Police, Ambulance. And putting up a notice to warn malcontents is no mitigation. These miscreants may not be able to read - the law says so - that's who.
The law, as applied currently requires that your actions have to be accidental or unequivocally in self-defence, which rules-out pre-meditation - like devices.

A burberis bush is not considered pre-meditated and it will slow the buggers down but they just come in via the route you use.

bolt internal doors and fit hinge bolts. Their MO is usually 3 mins, so if it takes them 2 noisy mins to get through a few doors they might leave early. And fit a webcam that dials-out and e-mails the shots.

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Rowan
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 07:31 PM

A friend who was a National Parks ranger in the Queensland tropics (and required to live in the govt-supplied house) used similar strategies to those described by M.Ted. He planted stinging trees (which can be quite decorative but are extremely painful) under each window, leaving only two doors free for routine access. These were clearly visible with good sightlines and internal protective mechanisms that were quite legal.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 09:32 PM

I've got internal security devices that are quite legal too -- one is pointed and 37 inches long, excluding the hilt, and another is about 24 inches long and made of turned seasoned oak. Their use requires requires me to control them.

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Rowan
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 09:51 PM

If "Their use requires requires me to control them" I suspect they may not operate in your absence, Rapaire; the ones my friend used were still operative in his. The ones Arnie described in the original post are definable (from precedent) as "man traps", making anyone who uses them (in UK or Oz) culpable as well as liable.

But I do understand their superficial atttraction.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 10:03 PM

Oh, they'd be illegal in the US as well. It's a well established point of law that any deterrent you use MUST be controllable. I can't legally rig up a spring-gun or set up a booby trap in the US anymore than you can in the UK or in Oz. Yes, I could under certain circumstances kill someone, but I have to do it -- not a mechanical or electrical contrivance.

Assume that I decide to defend my home with a weapon. I can only use it if my life or the life of another is actively threatened. I cannot shoot you if I'm at one end of the house and you're looting the other end. I cannot shoot you if you are driving away with all of my possessions. I can kill you if I have strong reason to believe that you intend to kill me or someone else AND you have the means to do it AND you have the opportunity to do it. Shooting you in the back as you run away from my house would get me prison time just as it would anywhere else.

Which is why I prefer a small sword or a nightstick. There won't be any question about whether or not what I do to you is justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 02:50 AM

Anyone who thinks 'that's a stupid law, I'm going to do it anyway' can have a look at the case of the farmer who shot a burglar who had left his house and was running away - I can't remember the name but it was Tony something and was notorious. Public opinion suggests that you should be able to harm someone who has robbed you, but the law is very clearly against it. Anyhoo - the farmer ended up with a longer sentence for shooting the burglars than they got for breaking and entering.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 03:35 AM

And don't forget the case of the Derbyshire farmer a few years ago who got fed up of people breaking into his shed. So he rigged up a sawn-off shotgun and a tripwire. Then he forgot he'd put it there and went into the shed. It worked a treat, he shot his own bollocks off.

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:39 AM

Tony Morris

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 07:08 AM

Tony Martin

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:33 AM

Our Mr. Martin seriously weakened his case by announcing to all and sundry that he would shoot intruders, some time before the event.

Hard to plead no premeditation in those circumstances.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 12:34 PM

And something else I learned on the H&S course. If an intruder has an accident on your premises, then you could be held liable! This was proved in court only last year when a young would-be burglar fell through the roof of a warehouse and hit the concrete floor some distance below. He successfully sued the warehouse owners for his injuries - that is to say that the crooked ambulance-chasing lawyers successfully sued on his behalf. Had the company provided duckboards for an intruder to use on the roof then they'd have been ok - how thoughtless of them!!

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 12:45 PM

You leave the body laying around then wonder why people ask questios? You got rivers there? Soil? Dogs?

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 12:47 PM

Sharks?

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 01:17 PM

Of course, there was the 80-something lady who nudged me and said, "As they're running away you yell 'Hey! you dropped something!' and you plug 'em when they turn around. Then drag 'em back into the house."

Farmer in Iowa quite a number of years ago rigged up a spring-gun in a shed on his property. A trespassing kid walked in and was carried out -- a 12 gauge loaded with double-ought buckshot does awful things to a human body. Farmer went up for premeditated murder; you have to plan a trap like that. Most folks thought the sentence was correct, while still allowing that you have a right to protect yourself and your property.

Find an old, uncared-for, graveyard. Carefully remove the sod from one of the graves, dig down, roll the body in, fill 'er up, and carefully replace the sod. Best to do this at night.

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 03:05 AM

So would a gun loaded with blanks and aimed into the air, or a crow scarer just to make the noise comply with the 'premeditated' bit?

If it's shown to be aimed in a direction so as not to cause injury but to raise the alarm, it might be possible to get away with having it.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 04:03 AM

I'd be interested to know the legal position in the following hypothetical case.

I'm a UK householder, and I set up my property so that, when I am out, any intruder will trip a system which closes steel shutters over all windows and doors, securely trapping the intruder until I release the system.

Am I acting within, or without, the law?

I suspect I may be liable to prosecution on false imprisonment charges, and if the B*****d breaks a fingernail trying to get out, for damages too.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 04:14 AM

Ah yes. Tony Morris was a lawyer I used to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 04:49 AM

Setting "Man-Traps" has been illegal in the UK for ages if not centuries.

Your steel shutters would activate against those who have legal rights of access to your property without your permission and who in your absence might have to break into your property, you would be deliberately endangering their lives and could be charged with that.

If fitted it may mean that your property would not be capable of being insured.

The one I do like that is perfectly legal "protects" you against the type of twerp that aims to settle grudges by pouring fuel through letter boxes and igniting it. The letter box is itself a sealed unit on the inside of the door with drains running down and leading out onto the doorstep. Now this works best if you have a doormat on the outside. Petrol gets poured in, flows straight out through the drains and soaks the mat. The would be arsonist attempts to ignite the fuel inside the letter box and ignites the fuel on the mat, and with a bit of luck themselves. It is legal because you have not deliberately set a trap in order to injure anyone, you have merely taken a precaution against ingress of liquid, any liquid, via your letterbox.

Subject: RE: BS: Health & Safety with a bang!
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 10:33 AM

I like that, Teribus. It would also keep blown rain from soaking your mail, especially bills from the tax people. I for one would CERTAINLY not want my tax bill turned to papier-mache! Heavens, it's an Official Government Missive and nearly as sacred as the tablets given to Moses!

Unfortunately, here they just kick in the door and throw bottles of gasoline and a match. To me, any arsonist should receive at least life without parole and if a death ensues, well, whatever the country uses as the supreme penalty. They are terrorists just as much as any suicide bomber.