BS: Leg problem

Subject: BS: Leg problem
From: Gurney
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 01:37 AM

That's what I have. After walking 50 yards, they feel tired and stiff, after another 50 they are seized up and my knees, thighs, and hips feel as if I've run a marathon. I stand still for a couple of seconds and they feel normal again, but the distance I can make this time is a little shorter.
I'm not breathing hard and I can stand for hours without any problem. Continuous effort, and not big effort either, is the trigger.
This condition has come on suddenly. I was fine at the end of Jan., trotting about the Auckland Festival with no problems at all.

Im in my middle 60s, not much overweight, cholesterol 5.6 total, blood pressure fine, doing a moderately physical job, not on medication, not having been injured in many years, all the problem from the hips down.

My doctor is convinced that it is arterial blockage of some kind (which was also my initial [laymans] diagnosis) and I have had an ultrasound scan from the groin down, with no problem showing. I'm booked in to see a vascular specialist.
I'm seekin a second opinion. Has anyone had something like this? It is getting worse.   Chris.

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 02:37 AM

Sounds like some sort of arterial blockage. Medical help seems the best option.

Like El Greko, I managed to step in a hole (deeper than my knee) a few weeks ago and strained cartilage, tendons, and attachments, as well as possibly bruising the cartilage in my left knee*** ... I sympathise, as my mobility is slightly restricted now too - as with you standing is actually easier than sitting... :-)

Actually very mild doses of Aspirin may help a bit - the old wives version is that it 'thinks the blood' - but doctors have big words for it... it will ease the pain when it kicks in too. You need to be careful if there is some vascular blockage problem that it doesn't let goo and start cruisng round the body looking to start some sort of heart attack/stroke syndrome.

*** Unlike George, I'm not a smoker... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 06:35 AM

The symptoms you've described are aparently fairly common, and may be caused by an arterial blockage or just by generalized "sluggish circulation." If the weakness/fatigue appears in one leg more than the other, it's reasonable to expect a local blockage; but if it's about the same in both legs it's sometimes just a general reduction in circulation efficiency.

One possibility not mentioned in your summary is that circulatory impairment may be related to Type II diabetes, which often becomes "symptomatic" at about your age. People vary in their sensitivity to it, but elevated sugar levels can cause vascular damage and reduced circulation, especially in the peripheral systems, independent of or combined with any cholesterol buildup.

Damage to the peripheral circulatory systems sometimes also results from "sleep disturbances" - sometimes true apnea but also sometimes just from "lazy breathing" during sleep. An overnight O₂ monitoring, which should be available using a "take home" monitor clipped on a fingertip, may show periods of low O₂. The low levels during sleep often are not particularly dangerous, and you may not be aware of them; but they can result in cumulative damage leading to pretty wide-spread circulatory problems - especially in the extremities.

Generalized loss of circulatory efficiency quite often leads to swelling in the feet and ankles. Since it's often gradual, and you get used to what your feet look like, it may be difficult to see that any such symptom is present; but a close examination may help with diagonosis, at least to suggest the form of the problem.

If a blockage is suspected, that's of course the most critical thing to look for. Depending on how serious one is, surgical procedures are usually recommended. Get an independent second opinion if possible.

For more general circulatory impairment, it may be possible to get some improvement with pharmaceuticals. Stopping further damage via drugs is fairly well established. Reversing damage that has already occured is a bit more "iffy" but some good results are reported.

A check for diabetes onset should be part of the routine, with these symptoms.

Disclaimer of course: I'm not a doctor, but have some experience with all of your symptoms.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: kendall
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 09:13 AM

My cousin had exactly the same symptoms you describe, and he was diagnosed with PAD peripheral artery disease. He suffered with it for years and finally gave in and had an operation. He is doing great now.

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 09:28 AM

Those explanations sound quite good. Much better than an explanation I got from a doctor regarding transitory numbness in my leg. He called it TPS. Tight Pants syndrome.

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 11:06 AM

Gurney, you may have a circulatory problem in spite of your good numbers, and you should have it checked out. "Mama don't 'low no heart attacks or strokes 'round here."

But you may actually have a back problem. Like you, I cannot walk long distances before my (right) leg begins to hurt. It turns out that I have two bad lower back disks which is the cause of the pain. Ironically, my back doesn't hurt.

The pain begins, usually, in the front of leg where it joins the foot; then it slides around my ankle and up the nerve on the outer side of the leg. Sometimes it starts in my hip, but rarely. When I pause, even briefly, the pain subsides rather quickly.

I now do stretches, and have tried to strengthen my back muscles with a light weight workout to take some pressure off the disks. It helps some.

Also, I have been riding a stationary bike, and using an elliptical machine for exercise. These do not cause the pain described above; the elliptical is hard on these 68 year old knees, though.

Good luck in getting treatment.

And, Donuel, there you go bragging again! I had to censor your comment from my wife, because she'd then become jealous of yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: Gurney
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 03:57 PM

It is hard to suffer from Tom Jones Syndrome. No-one understands!

I get the problem in both legs, but faster and worse in the left.
My usual course with illness is to ignore it until it goes away, but that isn't working, and then some.
I was hoping a Dr. House would post. Not knowing is worrying my wife.

My mother had thyroid problems in later life, and that is checked regularly. I just had a fairly comprehensive blood-test, which showed nothing much, but Judy has filed it, I can't find it, and I don't know if I was tested for diabetes until she comes back. Can't remember anyone who had it.
No family history on both sides of heart problems.
The puzzler is the suddenness. No swellings, No problems at all 'till I walk a little further than usual ( I'm on my feet all day, climbing ladders, fixing houses, but I don't hike or ramble.)    Chris.

P.S. I just fixed an identical problem on my son's car. Partly blocked petrol pipe. But you can always scrap an old car.

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: open mike
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM

beware of lumps or clots...these can form in legs and travel to heart
and lungs. I have had a pulmonary embolism which was life threatening.
It is unknown if mine formed in the legs,but that is often the case.
Deep Vein Thrombosis (D.V.T.) has been discussed here. They say CoQ10
can help in circulation. In my case I have been prescribed Coumadin or Warfarin blood thinner. your mileage may vary...

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: GUEST,Voice of Truth
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 04:43 PM

It could be a back problem, as another poster mentioned and I have experienced. Last year, I had pain in my leg for months, and I hadn't quite realized that it coincided with my getting a different car, which was a bigger 'stretch' for me. I went to my primary who thought I had a leg problem, possibly a surface phlebitis, but he sent me to another specialist, an astute physician who realized as I was speaking about the car that the problem was my not my leg. He sent me to yet another specialist who diagnosed a back problem. Went for several months of physical therapy and the problem abated.

I caution you however, to use our input only as a rough guide; you must consult your phsyician. And perhaps a few. Let us know how you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 08:02 PM

I gather arterial blockage can be a sort of spasm in which the artery in question contracts, or it can be because of the arteries being narrowed by a build up of fat.

Your vascular specialist should be able to work put which it is (if that's what it is at all).

It's a bugger getting older isn't it, as the body starts getting fractious on us.

Still, at least you've got a decent free health service in New Zealand.

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: Gurney
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 02:23 AM

It was decent once, McGrath, but with some types of problem you can die waiting. So many top professionals have gone abroad chasing bigger salaries, and so many lower-paid patients use the hospitals because they can't afford a GP (if you camp out in out-patients long enough, they'll treat you just to get rid of you) that sometimes you can wait months for treatment, and years for something like a new hip. They've been known to fly some patients to Australia for surgery because it is not available here.   Not that much better going private, either, because the surgeon that you might see is working in both sectors, and overworked in both.

John, my blood glucose is right in the middle of average. Only my platelet count is slowly falling.

I drive two vehicles and I've had them for 10 years. Don't travel far. I don't have a trick back of any kind.
I've thought about D.V.T. I haven't travelled by 'plane recently or, as I said, been injured, which produces the same clots.

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 02:53 AM

There are notices all over the buses in Ireland at the moment warning of exactly those symptoms being a dangerous sign of PAD. Here's an American Heart page about it

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 06:04 PM

I had severe problems of cramp in calf muscles of both legs, but since I started wearing magnetic leg bands the problem seems to have gone away. I notice that my legs now don't suffer from water retention as well. Neither the doctors or the hospital seem to acknowledge that these things work, but for me they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: Gurney
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 02:40 AM

Well, if I do have P.A.D. I must have a blockage somewhere above or about where the artery forks for the legs, because I get it in both legs.
I noticed yesterday that I got it in my calves when walking up a little hill. That's new. Thank you Thompson.

Strad, I only get cramp from working hard and sweating, and NOT drinking enough water.   Drink enough during the day, and no problem.
Drink lots of salted water when cramp strikes, it is gone in a half-hour.

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 03:37 AM

GURNEY---and Guest strad>>>>>>>> I don't know about that magnetism thing. Paw, with the help of the Cletus, Buford, and the Reg Boys, gave it a try and I gotta' tell you the result was, well, less than satisfactory for his problem, but then again, maybe it did work. Let me tell you about it and then you can decide.................

Paw's flatulence when combined with his passion for 'shine and hot wings used to be a big problem for him whenever his roids would flare up....so to speak...and it got to the point that little rubber donut pillows and Preparation H just weren't doing the job anymore. Clete's 6th wife was into all the weird and wacky cures so Cletus was always coming to Paw with his suggestions that he'd heard from her. When Cletus told Paw about acupuncture, he disappeared for about two weeks and I'll be damned if anyone could find him.

The Reg Boys too had their share of wacky cures for everything from the Great White North of Canada, but most of them involved bear grease and other vile and foamy liquids. Then it happened. The whole lot of them were watching my TV down in the den one night and had been subjected to at least nine hours of infomercials while they slugged down Iron City. I had learned from experience to unplug the phone and hide my credit cards on these nights which only took place when Karen was gone. I'm still paying for that quonset hut in the Aleutian Islands and I have the complete collection of Pan Flute Favorites so I have learned, albeit slowly. I think the one that finally got me was the "Great Michigan Getaway Weekend" which they bought and gave to Karen and I for an anniversary present. It was a month before I found out that they had billed it to my Visa and when we went for "rest and relaxation" in beautiful Michigan, it turned out to be clapped out motel run by a Pakistani in downtown Flint, just across from a closed GM factory.

I guess it was about 5:30 AM when Cletus woke me up and said they had the cure for Paw's hemorrhoids. This was more than I wanted or needed to know at 5:30 so after verifying that it wouldn't cost me anything, I said have at it and went back to sleep. When I woke up about 7 I had one of those vague feelings of dread. You know what I mean? Nothing was wrong that I could think of and yet I just felt the world was going to come after me that day. It turned out to be Old Man Rafferty instead....but I'll come to that.

The "boys" arrived back at my place about noon having already left when I woke at 7. They were lugging some huge electric motors into my garage and looking about for tools when I walked in and asked what the hell was going on. Cletus then launched into their "cure" and the reasoning behind it. It seems they had watched an infomercial about the "healing power of magnetism" and saw immediately that this was the way to fix Paw's 'roids. Slowly it all began to come together for me and I began to wonder how in the hell these guys could even remember how to breathe!

In any case, they'd picked up the motors from out back of Bernie's Electrical Supply and were now going to remove the large magnets inside. They idea was to cut a slit in Paw's rubber donut, insert the magnets, and then duct tape the thing back together. I noticed that Buford had an old jockstrap (with cup) that they evidently were going to use to strap the magnets to Paw's ass, again using liberal amounts of duct tape. Listening to Cletus explain all of this and their newfound theory made me begin to question my own existence, as though I really didn't exist in the world I had come to know, but was simply a bit player in a leftover Rod Serling story.

Things started going downhill pretty quickly as the magnets were removed and now were flying across my garage, affixing themselves to various steel things....like my van, my lawnmower, my golf clubs, and a little steel reinforced concrete rabbit that someone had once given us as a joke. I figured that I was going to be better off if they'd finish up somewhere else so I suggested they take all the stuff and head for the pleasant little roadside picnic area on the edge of the village where they could finish rigging Paw up and with any luck, I'd never know anything more about it. After removing the magnets, scratching the hell out of my van, breaking off the head of a 5 iron and the left ear of the rabbit, they left. The picnic area was only about a half mile off, just a bit down Rt.664 and I told them to let me know how it all worked out.

Curiosity is a terrible thing sometimes and about an hour later I grabbed my Weimaraner and his leash and set out as though I were just walking the dog. As I turned on 664 I saw the Boys all walking towards me from the little picnic grove. Paw's ass seemed to be a bit large and he was walking funny, but from a distance I could tell they must have done a good job circling his ass in magnets because outside of a slight limp and a big bulge at the rear of his bibs, Paw looked pretty normal. Then it happened. Trailing the others, Paw walked past Old Man Rafferty's mailbox, a new heavy duty steel one to foil the kids with cars and bats. He first slowed, stopped, then flew backwards and before you could say "dumbfuck" he was hanging from his ass on the mailbox. Ol' Man Rafferty was washing his aging Electra deuce and a quarter and looked up to see what was happening. By that time, Cletus, Buford, and the Reg Boys all were tugging on either Paw or Rafferty's mailbox and though they got him off the mailbox was smashed in and the pole was a goner.

Well I tell you, Rafferty came flying down the drive, gravel spitting up from his shoes, and swearing a blue streak. Paw was laying about 10 foot up the drive where he'd landed after the force of being ripped from the mailbox sent him sailing through the air. Rafferty bent over him and started yelling in his face and Paw was trying to stand up but being weighed down by the Magnetic Ass-Healing Ring. I got up there and tried to get Rafferty to calm down some as the others stood around looking bewildered. Rafferty started blaming me for allowing such "dumbass shitkickers" to stay here and how I should let them rot somewhere else. Before he could say another word, things continued to deteriorate. Paw had gotten to his feet about 15 feet from the Buick and there was a loud clanging thump as one of the hubcaps flew off and affixed itself to Paw's rump. Rafferty grabbed the hubcap and started pulling for all he was worth swinging Paw round and round in a circle. The hubcap folded and broke loose and Paw landed by the side of the road while Rafferty began to rage about his rump-sprung hubcap and twisted mailbox. I got out my checkbook and with a stern look to Cletus asked how much this would cost to keep from calling the police. The sight of my checkbook calmed Rafferty down and my Weimaraner had gone over to the side of the road and was licking Paw's face. Rafferty calculated a sum which I figured was enough to buy a new set of tires and an exhaust system for the Buick and build a brick mailbox, while forcing me nearer to bankruptcy.

Cletus and the rest were circled around me as I handed Rafferty the check and when I turned to go, I saw Paw had gotten to his feet again and was bent over stroking Jaeger's head. The dog has always had a soft spot for Paw and when I whistled for him he reluctantly came back up the drive. Bending over to pick up his leash, I heard Cletus say, "Aw Sheeitt!" Right then I couldn't imagine how things could get worse, but I looked up just in time to see Paw lifted from his feet and his ass attach to the exhaust stack of a passing Peterbilt. I watched as the truck roared off, Paw flailing around and in a blind spot where the driver couldn't see him, and the dumbass Reg boys waving "bye-bye" as the Pete rounded a curve down by the Hopewell place.

We found Paw at the truckstop at Rt.37 and I-70 where the driver had stopped for fuel. When we arrived, the Magnetic Ass-Healing Ring was nowhere to be seen and Paw was sitting on a bag of ice trying to cool the burns from riding 27 miles on an exhaust stack. But I tell you what.....Perhaps it was the scar tissue from the burns that did it, but Paw hasn't had trouble with 'roids since then. Maybe there is something to the power of magnetism.....................


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: Gurney
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 03:53 PM

'Spaw, a Weimaramer isn't really a shaggy dog.....

Like the story, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 04:43 PM

His Weimie is sorta!

I don't know if this will help, but I have been taking one tablet of magnesium, 1000 mg per night, for muscle cramps, for at least two years. I recently decided to increase it to two tablets and I cannot believe what a difference that has made. I feel I am getting the best sleep I've had in ages because of it. All of my muscles have relaxed; they don't feel just on the edge of going into full spasm any more!

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: GUEST,Andy
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 04:54 AM

Gurney,
I have your problem too, after a lifetime smoking and 2 minor heart attacks. It's known as 'claudication' and I've been told that with regular exercise and trying to 'walk through' the pain a little, the symptoms should become less problematic.
Best of luck

Andy

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 05:46 PM

Catspaw, that's a piledriver of a tail!

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 09:05 PM

Gurney
I'm an osteopath in the UK and have suffered the same symptoms as you, known as "intermittent claudication". Mine was due to having been overcooked during cancer radiotherapy treatment 20 years ago but, hell, I'm still alive.
I would consider it imperative for your circulation to be checked by your GP, including a check of all the pulses of the legs and feet, and also any which might be felt in your abdomen.
Suggest you might (slightly) exaggerate your symptoms, such as reducing the distance you can walk before pain strikes, as it may help to get you an early referral to a vascular (blood circulation) specialist for scans. Also try to establish which muscle groups are affected, as each group has a different blood supply.
Try to isolate pain above or below the knee, fromt, back or which side of the leg. Also where the pain first strikes. The doctor will need to know.
You should be put through an exercise routine to check how far/fast you can walk, a form of echo-sounding (Doppler) test to check for roughness within the arteries and possibly a body scan (MRI) using some form of radio-opaque dye injected into your bloodstream. The pictures there, with your blood vessels highlighted, can look pretty impressive!
I would consider it imperative that you refer yourself immediately to your GP, particularly as your symptoms appear to be of sudden onset. If you were my patient I would be making the appointment for you, while you were in my clinic!
While aspirin and coumarins (Warfarin, or rat poison) can be beneficial I would suggest that you should only take them under prescription from your GP, otherwise you may be disguising some problem which may be life-threatening. We would rather not lose you!
I am taking both of those drugs myself and have to attend my GP surgery weekly for a prick test (no, not for that! My finger!) to ensure that my clotting levels have not gone awry.
I hope that the above is helpful. Please come back to me, preferably by PM, if you have any queries.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Leg problem
From: Gurney
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 06:01 PM

Thanks, folks. Claudication is what my GP put on the letter to the radiographer who gave me an ultrasound scan. Fascinating to see the blood actually moving through my arteries (She said it worked by using doppler effect: I asked.)
I have bloodflow clearly discernable -I could see it- all the way down to my ankles, but that was when I was lying down. I have no difficulty at all lying, standing, sitting, just walking and climbing hills or ladders, and even then not at first.
The GP could detect NO pulses in my legs, but I'm told that that is fairly common, as it is often difficult.

Yes, Bonecruncher, as I'm definately getting worse, I'm going back to the doc to see if I can ginger him up. However, a MRI scan would be very expensive, I imagine, as the ultrasound cost me a weeks wages.(Or would have done if I was still working.)

It's a bugger, getting old, eh?