BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;

Subject: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 10:28 PM

....exercising power? Or is it those that seek to make money by exploiting women? Are bodies just commodities? Is a woman pimp on higher moral ground than a man pimp?

I ask based on some assertions, or implications, passed by a poster in another thread. I would love to hear women's views primarily in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:04 PM

Yeesh!!! Hell of a big subject there, Mick.

Prostitution is a whole lot of different things, but I don't think I've got the endurance to talk about it in depth right now. Good luck with the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: number 6
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:37 PM

A lot of it was discussed in this earlier thread ...

prostitution

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:45 PM

Yeah, biLL but that is mostly men. I would like to hear from women. Harpgirl, in another thread, suggested that $5000 prostitutes represented some kind of powerful woman exercising control over men. This puzzled me, as I have always looked at prostitution as men using women i.e. pimps are usually men, or madames are women who make money off of other women being used by men.

I am really interested in hearing from women on this topic, not men. It is a chance to sit quietly and learn something.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:50 PM

"It is a chance to sit quietly and learn something."

"MMMFTT! BLFFFT! GNFPPPT!" (the sound of fifty very opinionated Mudcat men who have the answer to ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING being forcibly stifled by fifty well-paid hired gorillas while the discussion proceeds and the women have their say....)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: number 6
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:50 PM

I'll be watching this thread also Mick. I see your point. It's a good one.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:37 AM

Because of the risk involved, no matter the amount paid, I'd say, initially, that it is the "market" which controls women. Ever read Happy Hooker? She commanded large amounts of money, but was still not safe, no matter what she did. Even with bodyguards, pimps, servants, whatever, when it comes down to the prostitute and the "john" there is so much risk that I don't believe most women can control.

I used to think that it could be a power thing, women over men, esp. in the high-priced arena, but there is too much background stuff, i.e. a pimp to be paid, a protection racket, etc. (not sure if there IS a mafia involved in this anymore.) Of course, the high-priced prostitute could do some damage with disclosure and that might give her some kind of power over her clients, but if she started playing that kind of game, one of them might pop her OR she'd lose all of her clients. She is selling not only her body, but also discretion no matter what kind of treatment they mete out for what price. She can control the type of clients by pricing herself high, but some of them can be just as dangerous or kinky, sometimes I think they are even more so if they are wealthy and can buy the discretion etc. they crave. Not sure if I am making sense here. It's a subject I studied a lot, years ago. Remember ERA?:-)

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Amergin
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:47 AM

Was this a professional interest that you had in that subject, Kat? ;)

I think the women are exploited no matter how much they charge for the services....the women doing the work see little of the money they earn....most of it goes to the pimp or madame....just like the common worker who makes all the money for their fat boss...and yet sees so little of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:58 AM

Nathan,..... looking for the women's views here.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:59 AM

My response is to consider the film versions of the life that made an impression on me. It either involved the central figure or a major plot point shifted around a prostitute or someone forced into that role.

Klute

Nuts

Monster

Taxi Driver

Pretty Woman

Pretty Baby

Elmer Gantry

There are also many stories that have been filmed that depict women forced into marriages or relationships they would not choose for themselves. What Margo St. James of COYOTE (Call of Your Old Tired Ethics) would suggest is the prostitution end of marriage. She also suggested that wives would prostitute themselves for a new toaster, so I don't take every word of hers as gospel, but she made points worth considering when I heard her lecture in the early 1970s.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:05 AM

I should have noted the irony of such a list is that the film that is farthest from reality yet seen by most people is probably Pretty Woman. Most hookers don't go away from a job knowing which fork to use for their salad course.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:31 AM

A fairly recent exposition of the "sex is power" notion can be seen in a pretty "gentle" article at:

Sexiness = power in porn-driven culture: Does the trend build confidence in young women — or diminish it?

A "cultural view" from the US:

Last Mustang Ranch building destroyed: Blaze was part of firefighting training

Just to get you in the mood:

German Culture: The Sex Industry & Prostitution in Germany: Robert Easton: It is estimated that 1.2 million German men use prostitutes each year, and the industry has an annual turnover of US$1.6 billion. Prostitution was legalised in Germany in 2002

U.K. cops make 2nd arrest in prostitute killings

India minister says child labor issue overblown

conviction of three Bosnian Serbs: of crimes against humanity in the first war-time sex enslavement case at an international court.

of Women Trafficked for Prostitution During World Cup Games (Word doc)

(Lots of sites with applicable stories have "expired." The above are just remnants.)

Separating the issues of prostitution from the more general issue of slavery ignores the widespread prevalence of the numerous ways in which people throughout the world, including in our own neighborhoods, are forced to live, without choice, under the control of others.

The evil isn't necessarily in the act of prostitution. The evil is that any one is forced to do anything not of their choosing and without being free to leave. Unfortunately, in and out of prostitution circles, that evil is, apparently, quite common.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:45 AM

Just a brief comment or two. I found "Pretty Woman" to be probably the most sickening movie I ever saw in my life. It actually made me feel physically ill watching it, that's how much whatever the heck it was putting across bothered me. The whole story just made my flesh crawl. "Klute", on the other hand, was a pretty good movie, and "Monster" was an absolutely extraordinary film...although terribly, terribly depressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Slag
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 02:15 AM

No! Prostitution is the essence of all politics. It is compromising your beliefs, morality, anything considered to be sacred. It is selling out for the almighty, or should I say "once" mighty dollar?!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 04:13 AM

In the UK, most street workers are drug addicts working to pay dealers, loan sharks, and to sustain their habit. Many are HIV positive.
None do it to gain a "feeling of power over men". It is simply short term SURVIVAL.

"High class prostitution" as a lifestyle is a complete myth.
It is Capitalism in the raw.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:44 AM

Don't most of the issues that kat and other have discussed here stem from the fact that prostituition is illegal in most places?

It certainly can never be abolished -we know what happens with prohibition - and prostitution has been around a long, long time. So, it seems to me that men having casual sex with women is a natural part of human make-up. Why therefore outlaw this?
why should the state dictate to men and women what they can do with their own bodies, in private? (yes, of course, consent is the prerequisite - otherwise it's rape).

Imagine a society where there was a mature and full acceptance of human sexuality - based on consenting adults' views.

Wouldn't this remove the stigma, and the pimps, sordid exploitation, human trafficking and all that goes with that?

(While we're at it, can't we do the same for drugs, too? This needs controlling and managing, not banning.)

Just a few thoughts from an old libertarian..don't shoot!
D

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 08:05 AM

The only men I have known who admitted to using prostitutes were bullies who chose the nastiest woman they could find so that they could ridicule and abuse her. The only prostitutes I have known have been drug addicts (male and femaile) who would do anything for their next fix. The former were angry pathetic corporate game types who treated their wives as badly as did they did the prostitutes. The latter, just burned out hulks.

One who particularly offended me was a man who bragged to anyone who would listen how he took his son to a whore house for his 16th birthday so that his first time would be done "right". His wife would smile indulgently while his son sat there caught between embarrassment and confusion. A pathetic display.

Since sex is available free everywhere I can not imagine what motivates a man to pay for it. My intuition tells me power but I honestly don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 08:56 AM

I agree that prostitution should be legalised - that would, at least, allow for a certain degree of safety for the women if there were recognised houses offering security and health cover. It could also allow them to keep more of the money earned by removing the pimps from the picture.

There are men who find it impossible to even think of getting involved in a relationship with a woman but for whom the sex urge has not
diminished. For them prostitution gives a way in which to deal with those perfectly natural urges. By turning the act into a business proposition they are making it safe, with no chance of emotional issues coming into play.

There may also be cases where a man in a committed relationship may turn to a prostitute if, for some reason, his wife is unable to be sexually active. Again, as a purely commercial undertaking he can release the physical urges, which seem to be so strong in a lot of men, without the possibility of an emotional attachment.

For whatever reason men get involved, surely it would be in everyone's best interests if the trade was made less risky.

IMHO most prostitution is a matter of survival in one way or another, whether it's to stop from being beaten up by a pimp, to get the next fix or just because a woman can find no other way to put food on the table. Even the so called high class prostitutes seem to be looking for a way to get all the things in life that they want by selling their bodies. The sooner that it is made safer for those women and maybe an element of choice given back to them, by drug programmes or taking out of the equation men who turn their partners into whores, for example, the better.

What should be punished most severely is the crime of pimping - if a woman wishes to sell sex services, fine. No other person, male or female, should be permitted to force a woman into that way of life or to profit from it. It will always be there, even when prostitution is legalised, but it should be subject to stringent penalties to try and discourage some and to put out of circulation those who break the law.

The power fix, generally, seems to be the woman in a relationship who uses the sex act to show her power over her partner. I have known one or two of those in my time, where sex was given on condition that the woman was rewarded in some way. To me that is more dishonest than a woman on the street who is making it clear that the 'relationship' is purely a business one.

From my own point of view, and having been in two marriages where my husbands were adulterous, I would find it less demeaning if my husband visited a prostitute for whatever reason than for him to become involved in an emotional affair. I might want to know why he needed to seek sex outside of the marriage, but it seems that some people, both men and women, have a need for more than can be supplied within a permanent relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:15 AM

I think Jacqui just said most of what I think. Thanks, Jacqui.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:17 AM

You might enjoy Emily Bazon's essay on why prostitution is illegal,...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Maryrrf
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:23 AM

It isn't necessarily a gender thing - there are male (gay) prostitutes too. I would seriously doubt that in a 'true' prostitute situation - i.e. where money is exchanged for sex - that it is a case of women or the prostitute excercising their power. Might be a little different in the case of 'borderline' prostitution where a beautiful woman extends her favors to a man she isn't attracted to because he buys her expensive gifts, gets her an apartment, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:25 AM

One has to look no further than the American Congress and its votes after 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:28 AM

That was more like date rape than prostitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:31 AM

*reading, but not commenting*

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:46 AM

There was a series that ran in the San Francisco Chronicle some months back about the slave-end of prostitution. It focuses on a woman who ran up a debt she thought she couldn't pay any other way. Here it is.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:55 AM

It is bizarre to me that a woman can legally carry a child to term for money but cannot engage in "normal" sex (that is, without a test tube or artificial insemination being involved) to produce that child.

I agree that prostitution should be legalized but I do not for a moment believe that legal prostitution will end illegal prostitution. For one thing, pimps will still prey on homeless girls, getting them addicted to drugs and forcing them into selling their bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:58 AM

That's true Mary and that's why I think that pimping should be a much more serious crime with heavy consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:17 PM

Quick note to add more films --

The Jamie Lee Curtis character in "Trading Places" and the friend in "Shirley Valentine".

Sorry, can't concentrate on a real post because of weather-related pain in my shoulder. (I'm not whining, really -- just getting very tired of being in pain. Sigh.)

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:54 PM

Prostitution (with any age/gender as the "commodity") is an interlocking of tragic motives (which differ between purchaser and commodity roles) resulting from oppressions installed at an early age and reinforced by other societal forces. It's not what any person operating at their best would choose over other forms of intimacy, prefession, or pleasure-- it is chosen because the one making the choices is functionally unable to comprehend otherwise.

It's because it is so complex that it is easy to pretend to solve, while actually being so hard to actually solve.

Further complicating the issues is the fact that so much of the landscape of the issues occurs in the limbic sytem of the human brain, not in the forebrain we like to think is in charge. It's not just that the "little head" controls the "big head." The whole animal side of our brains influences how we perceive the choices people make, and we human beans tend not to like to dwell upon how closely we are still related to the animal kingdom. Separating ourselves from that kingdom allows the illusion that we are no longer subject to it; but we are.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:39 PM

It is hard to consider something as power when the risks taken are by the "powerful". From disease to pregnancy to the self-righteous to the serial killer cleaning up the world, the risks borne are highest among the providers.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:46 PM

Jacqui, well-said. I, too, agree it should be legalised.

To add to the movie list: Prime Cut.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bee
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:50 PM

In terms of legal and illegal:

I have no idea what prostitution is like in the Netherlands now, but I'd like to mention some experiences I had of meeting prostitutes there in 1971-72. There was, of course, the famous district, where quite a large number of women freely advertised, displayed themselves, and were very busy. The district was safe enough, at least superficially, that a couple of twenty year old women could wander around there gawking with no fear of anyone bothering them at all. I met and spoke with one woman (was introduced, by her female cousin, my friend) who actually used, regularly, one of the display windows. She was business-like, brusque, and almost clinical in her approach to clients (I witnessed one financial transaction: the man was as businesslike as she).

The other pros I met there were university students who took calls, and agreed to sell sexual encounters on an "I have to see you first and evaluate" basis. They were quite cheerful in stating that they were paying for their schooling extras and an expensive lifestyle. One, however, had started taking very expensive hard drugs and was thought by other girls to be careless and acting dangerously - there are crazy men everywhere.

In Canada, where prostitution is illegal, I've seen the worst side of prostitution: nasty pimps, drug addiction, violence, sadism and murder. I've also seen a few instances of independent prostitutes - very tough women indeed - who managed to avoid having a pimp, sometimes by virtue of being strong enough to inflict physical damage on any man foolish enough to try it on, and ultimately because most pimps found it much easier to just go after younger, often addicted, easily controlled women.

I knew two of these independent pros over a period of five or six years (they had children I cared for). They were single mothers, not drug addicted, who couldn't or wouldn't deal with the welfare system. Neither had made it through high school, and had no job skills, and were not good at people skills, either. Their goal was financial survival for their children. Both exited the profession during the time I knew them. One came in one day, deliriously happy at having gotten a job as a nude dancer - less money, no more fear of arrest. She eventually married a previous client, a marriage that was ongoing and seemingly stable many years later. The other was offered a part time job in an environment in which she was comfortable and well known as an individual, and she stuck with it, became fulltime, and kept the job for over twenty years.

I think it's obvious anywhere that while not fully eliminating the risk of violence, legalising prostitution and taking pimps out of the picture entirely reduces the worst effects enormously, and also allows women in the profession the luxury of deciding for themselves if and when they want to earn a living in another manner.

Human motivation being marvellously diverse, I imagine some women might see selling sex as a power position. I suspect most see it as a method of earning money, in whatever quantity.

Are bodies commodities? I think they can be. I'm pretty sure professional football players bodies' are to some extent commodified. Does prostitution devalue sexuality in terms of loving relationships? I think it may be possible to separate the two approaches, just as we separate a professional massage from the experience of being massaged/touched/embraced by a loved one.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:56 PM

It's not what any person operating at their best would choose over other forms of intimacy, prefession, or pleasure-- it is chosen because the one making the choices is functionally unable to comprehend otherwise.
I don't believe it. I am quite sure there are women who choose prostitution, especially on the high end, because of the money they can make. There may well be others who choose it because they enjoy sex, especially with the added bonus of an income thrown in. It is a profession that requires almost no skill, particularly at the entry level position. There are certainly women, and men, who indulge in it because they are driven by fear, need, pain and addiction. Those people are worthy of pity. The high-end prostitute is just as worthy of scorn. Of course, as good liberals, we are supposed to be obligated to look for social justification for any activity that is bad. It's never a personal choice. In fact, even to call it bad is making a judgement call. Nothing is "good" or "bad" without fully understanding the context, since values are on a constantly sliding scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 02:07 PM

Sorry, Mick. I lost track of the fact that you were looking for feedback from women. I'll shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:55 PM

Sorry to break in here but I saw an article from the Today show that interviews a woman from a high priced escort service where she tells her side of the story. I thought it might be of interest.


The Today Show

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:58 PM

Bee: It's always been my understanding that prostitution itself is legal in Canada; like the situation in Britain that McGrath mentioned, it is soliciting, etc., that is illegal - to my understanding ...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 06:35 PM

How do you prostitute and not solicit?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bee
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 06:59 PM

meself, it's same-same, as far as the women are concerned. Unless it's a regular client, sooner or later they have to indicate a price: voila, solicitation. Besides that, they get harassed out of neighbourhoods by police acting on the complaints of residents. I completely understand that: I've had to collect the 'debris' left in corners of playgrounds and other children's play areas far too often, and I lived five years in a downtown area at the centre of a popular 'stroll'. There are few things more distressing than waking up to the screams of a woman being roughed up by a cursing pimp. Calling the police with such a complaint wasn't very useful - shoulda told 'em there was a fire, might've taken them less than forty five minutes to make it the eight blocks from the police station.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: meself
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 07:06 PM

I'm just talking about what the actual law is - so I assume my impression is correct that prostitution itself is legal ...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 07:20 PM

Sounds like the law is specious double-talk to me.

Prostitution, like marijuana smoking, ought to be legal. It's a matter of personal choice, and legalization would greatly help to protect the lives and health of the prostitutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:53 PM

How is it "prostitution" i.e. sex for money, if they cannot solicit legally? Doesn't that negate it being called prostitution or it even existing? What does the law mean? You can be a prostitute in name only, but don't try to practice it as it will then be illegal?

Wesley, thanks for the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Joe_F
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:44 PM

It is true that most men, if they try hard enough & are not fussy, can get laid without paying. However, it takes time. I have been told (I wouldn't know, myself) that if you have a lot of money and are very busy, the time may be more important than the money. I was startled to hear, a few years ago, that if you have won a bear contest you can command $1000 a night or so. And that's a gay niche market!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:46 PM

A couple of weeks ago I exited my local gas station and had just shut the door to my pickup when I realized a man had followed me out the door. He was pulling a business card out of his wallet and indicated he wanted to talk, would I roll down the window? Given a couple of inches of clear window opening, asked if I wanted company that evening. I was quite startled (and wasn't dressed to attract--I'd been mowing the lawn and cleaning the garage). Back up went the window (I'd only lowered it a couple of inches) as I declined his offer. He was a very handsome fellow, certainly not in need of soliciting strangers. It really was quite odd.

Now if I were at a museum or concert and really hit it off with someone and the same question was asked, I'd at least give it some thought. Where there was some social context and filtering going on there might be more information for making a safe decision, though I think the answer regarding intimacy that soon would still be the same. Give it a little time.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:57 PM

that if you have won a bear contest

Bear contest? or bare contest? Either way, where would that be?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:05 PM

What the hell is a bear contest? And how do you win? Do you have to pin the bear for a ten-count?

That sort of thing used to work great in Beowulf's day if you wanted lots of willing female company, but I don't know if it does anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bee
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:09 PM

It's kinda similar, Little Hawk, except the attention is from males who like big, strong, hairy males (bears).

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:41 PM

Well, Mick, it depends on what definition of power one is using. Mastery over one's self, or mastery over others.   In general, it seems to me that people who are intentionally exploitive of others actually lack a sufficient sense of personal power.    "If I can exploit or control others, then I am powerful."    This means their sense of being powerful is almost entirely dependent on what others do, think, or feel.

A pimp is a pimp, irrespective of gender, imo.

Legalization of prostitution might make it safer, but probably does not make it less exploitive.

Every transaction between a prostitute and a customer may not be exploitive. Many transactions between prostitutes and customers may be mutually exploitive. But I think there has been sufficient psychological and social research done over time and across cultures to make a reasonable assertion that prostitution is generally dependent on the exploitation, usually, of women. But the process begins long before a prostitute becomes a prostitute.   The process, for many, though not all prostitutes, begins with traumatic childhoods that include any combination of poverty, physical abuse, sexual abuse, substantial neglect. With addiction and/or mental illness.

High-end prostitutes are the exception, not the rule. College girls being promiscuous and getting paid for it are the exception, not the rule. Most of those college girls won't find themselves selling sex for long.   Many of them won't understand what they did to themselves until several years later, when the herpes virus emerges, the cervical cancer from HPV, the infertility from undetected chlamydia and PID, or they turn up HIV positive.

People who have hardscrabble lives - whether because of bad choices, lack of opportunities and resources, or an accident of birth - may be very good at surviver skills - and survival skills include manipulation and exploitation as well as the ability to become psychologically acclimated to abuse. The conditions that foster the development of these survival skills are not usually the conditions that foster the skills to thrive and be physically and psychologically healthy. (think Maslow's pyramid.)

Exploitation is exploitation. Some people may choose to put themselves in positions where they are exploited. Some people may be completely blind to the fact that they are being exploited, or have need to defend themselves from that knowledge.   Some people may very deliberately and consciously be exploitive, some may be blind or defended against seeing and acknowledging they are being exploitive. Exploiter and exploited are not at all mutually exclusive - in fact, it is probably most common for a person to engage in both behaviors. So many people are both victims and perpetrators.

That's my half cent worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: meself
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 12:10 AM

'How is it "prostitution" i.e. sex for money, if they cannot solicit legally?' etc.

I didn't write the law, so don't ask me to justify it. I do imagine there is some case-law that clarifies the difference between prostitution and solicitation, but I've never looked into it. Maybe if Richard Bridge shows up here he'll enlighten us.

Having said that, I would speculate that the law means that even if it can be proven that someone paid another person to have sex, or conversely that someone accepted payment for sex, that does not constitue a crime. However, if it can be proven that someone OFFERED money for sex, or offered sex for money, then either or both parties could be convicted of soliciting - or something. A subtle distinction, obviously, but that's why we have lawyers.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Amergin
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 01:16 AM

Mick, you said, "Nathan,..... looking for the women's views here."

Well I could put on my kilt....and then post here...would that work? ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 06:59 AM

Nope Nathan, you got lousy legs.....***chuckle***

I was just looking to hear what women say about legalizing prostitution, and whether or not there was any legitimacy, from a woman's point of view to the use of it to exercise power.

Men always have something to say, but all too often I don't think we try to get inside what women really feel on a subject. I was hopeful of a good discussion of women really exercising power and control on their terms. The woman who raised it originally seems to have backed off from her statement. I just don't see prostitution as anything other than men exploiting women, although Janie gave me a different (if very clinical) perspective of mutual exploitation.

I just wanted us guys to be quiet and try to learn something.

Mick