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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:05 AM I am a member of Comhaltas. before I come to any decision regarding who is right or wrong,Iwould like to hear/see both sides of the story,in the meantime I shall carry on playing music regardless.Dick Miles |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor, member "Reel Clontarf" Date: 04 Apr 08 - 10:13 AM There are many details to the long saga of how Clontarf branch lost the Clasac Theatre and got dissolved. However, be assured that the membership who have worked and played together over many years will survive and grow stronger out of this crisis. There are many ordinary members of CCE out there who are unhappy with the leadership of head office. I had the "pleasure" of meeting some of the ardcomhairle at Clontarf's EGM where the members were treated to a spectacular dressing down from Labras. We were in shock and dismayed initially. At our next couple of branch meetings we had had further scorn and disrespect showered on us by another member of the ardcomhairle who, amazingly was a member of our own branch. We, the ordinary members started to recover from the shock of the treatment meeted out to us over the following weeks. We now realise that the "leadership" was WRONG to treat us in this manner. We are rising up from the ashes of this crisis and will campaign to re-establish our right to 5 of our members to be elected to the board of management of Clasac. We will also seek the reversal of the unjust dissolution of the branch by the ardcomhairle. I look forward to the concert in the Teachers' Club tonight and intend to thoroughly enjoy the brilliant music of our Under 18 band, our fabulous teachers, and all the eminent musicians who are performing in a show of solidarity with our dissolved club. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: knight_high Date: 04 Apr 08 - 10:47 AM Well said Eileen. I am also a member of Comhaltas and also unhappy with the leader and leadership shown. May I wish you all well in Clontarf and enjoy the concert. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Breandán Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:10 AM I also wish you well, Eileen. If I were in Dublin, I would certainly attend the concert as well. As I will not be, I hope that it goes well. It's a fantastic line-up, as you say, and I've heard your U18 group many times. If I were to venture a prediction, I would expect that the Clasaċ theatre board will be constituted with representation from the branch, as originally agreed. I see no reason why that would not occur. I suspect, though, that the dissolution will not be reversible, for reasons that have been discussed above. I am hoping that a reconciliation between factions can be reached within the new branch, and that the branch will continue its excellent teaching, touring and outreach programmes. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:52 AM I should have mentioned a third point in my contribution above, i.e. The vast majority (95% at a guess) fully intend to continue to support the elected committee who we all voted for at our 2007 AGM. We will continue to work together, and do NOT RECOGNISE the self-appointed "new" committee in any shape or form. So, Breandan, while I welcome your prediction of 5 of the original branch becoming part of the Clasac board of management, I do not envisage a reconciliation being reached within the "NEW" branch. We have been treated despicably by the ardcomhairle, and would not find it easy to trust the "hand of friendship" offered by their wives and friends who elected themselves onto the new committee. Pity you'll miss the gig. I was wondering, is your full time occupation representing the ardcomhairle on this site at the moment? Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Breandán Date: 04 Apr 08 - 12:18 PM Kinda feels like it, doesn't it? No, my full-time job right now is to finish my MA at the University of Limerick. I waded into this discussion because I felt that the information publicly available was presenting only one side of the picture, and having worked on the Clasaċ project (on and off) for the past year, I was aware of some salient facts which should be aired. As it happens, it would appear that we've wandered into the areas of structure and governance of Comhaltas, other subjects which are generally neither well-discussed nor understood outside the organisation. Speaking for myself, even when I was an elected member of my own branch's committee, I had only the vaguest idea of how Comhaltas was actually governed. To me this speaks mostly of Comhaltas' communications capabilities, which are not great. Of course, there are idealistic people trying to change that, over time. I'd probably withdraw from the discussion at this point and work on my essays, except that if I did the first unanswered question would be taken as an admission of defeat. :-) Though I don't represent the ardchomhairle in any way, it does seem that mine is a lonely voice at the moment submitting that the decisions of that body are not, as a matter of firmly-held belief, both venal and self-interested. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Big Mick Date: 04 Apr 08 - 01:37 PM Attention, Dick MilesIf you would like to hear both sides, I suggest you try reading the thread!!!! Your comments don't come off well when the entire thread has been a (for the most part) discussion by the sides, and done with passion, but not rancor. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,MRS FLANNERY- Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:09 PM Any one know a tune called "The Rights of Man " ? Give me an Ahhhh minor and get on with it ----enough shite have been spoke, Mo naire thu go leir, MA FLANNERY |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:22 PM Big Mick,I have been reading the thread. I have yet to see a response,from the people responsible for dissolving the Clondarf branch. at no point have I suggested that this discussion has been full of rancour. I am surely entitled to keep an open mind, until I see a response from the people in CCE who have dissolved the Clondarf branch.T |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:35 PM apologies for spelling error should read Clontarf. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: knight_high Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:36 PM I was looking at the Cluain Tarbh branch website and download a MS Word document , which as you can see below is the directive issued re the VAT. The interesting thing about this Word document is that when I looked at the properties of the file, Breandán Knowlton is listed as the author. m m m!!!! Breandán would want to look at those computers in HQ and get his name off the one on which that document was created - unless of course Breandán was actually the person who drafted the document Mr. Maurice Mullen 26th January 2008 Chairman Craobh Chluain Tarbh 82 Sonesta Malahide Co. Dublin Dear Maurice In accordance with the authority vested in us, as Trustees General of Comhaltas, by the organisation's Bunreacht, we now direct Craobh Chluain Tarbh to deliver to us the refund of VAT money which your branch obtained in relation to the CLASAĊ project. Please comply with this directive within seven days. Is sinne, Pádraig Ó Ceallaigh Colmán Ó Muimhneacháin Labhrás Ó Murchú |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,OLD -TIMER Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:47 PM This stuff must now,at this stage, be about to break all International records for indoor & outdoor Yawning records----- Gold Medal Boredom Award goes to-------- nominations please-----???? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:48 PM Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Big Mick - PM Date: 02 Apr 08 - 12:26 PM And so the question would be, were all the steps followed, including those that give the branch its opportunity to put forth its position? Also, is there any point in the process in which the appeal is heard by an independent voice? The parallel in the civil setting would be a civil court, or in US labor, the NLRB?. Good Idea,Mick. solicitors would benefit as they have done with the Mahon tribunal,C |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: knight_high Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:49 PM Jasus!! Breandán Knowlton is listed as the author of other letters from HQ re this affair. He should really sort that out. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Frank_Finn Date: 04 Apr 08 - 07:08 PM I wish the people involved in this dispute would get together soon and sort it out. It is doing lots of harm to the organisation |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Breandán Date: 04 Apr 08 - 07:39 PM Yeah, I installed Microsoft Word on the office computers ... I should really look at changing the default entry in the Address Book .... I didn't have anything to do with drafting the letters, obviously! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Guest Mr. P Date: 04 Apr 08 - 07:49 PM Power battles within voluntary organisations rarely make for pleasant viewing & this is no exception. Situations like this, generally when organisations have to face external issues are usually irreconciliable. Emotions inflamed beyond the point of return: 1979 is a long time ago but clearly the upset remains in that case and this thread is living proof of how brown site regeneration, VAT refunds and the ability to make constitutional amendments once every 6 years unhappily collide with the pastime of traditional Irish music. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Declan Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:41 PM If any good can come out of a sorry situation like this, it was tonights benefit concert in the Teachers Club. Great music from start to finish and huge support for the 'reel' Branch committee from some of the top names in Irish music in Dublin and in general. The faily names involved in the concert - Glackin. O Brien, O Connor, Mulligan, Kelly to name but a few have all been associated with Cluain Tarbh over the years and all showed up to show their solidarity tonight. Other major names fromn the trad music community including Fintan Vallely, Mark Kelly and John Blake also contribnuted. Standing room only in the venue from start to finish. Not to mention the existing musicians and teachers from the Branch. A great show of support all round. There isn't any doubt that the Branch are staunchly behind their elected leadership. Brendans scenario of the exiasting membership joining up with the unelected branch will never happen. The Branch is determined that they will be back in Classac and I for one wouldn't bet against that as an outcome. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Big Mick Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:47 PM I would like to publicly and unreservedly apologize to Dick Miles for the tone of my post. I was a bit on edge this afternoon, which doesn't excuse a damn thing, but I offer it as an explanation. And, techically, he is right. We do not have the "official" explanation, although Breandan has delivered what it is pretty well. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Nerd Date: 05 Apr 08 - 02:15 AM Jim: actually, your focus on my use of the word "charitable" was a red herring. Nothing I said had anything to do with whether the organization is an active charity. My point is that it is a non-profit corporation dedicated to the promulgation of Irish traditional music, not a government. There are many ways in which such corporations are structured. Some are more democratic, some less. Most of the ones I have worked for have been less democratic than CCE. Comhaltas actually seems to be structured in quite a democratic way. According to Breandan, whom I have no reason to doubt, the decision to dissolve the Clontarf branch was made by a committee of elected representatives. According to Eileen O'Connor, at least one of those, who apparently agreed with the ardchomairle, was in fact a member of Clontarf branch. So the branch itself was represented on the committee that made the difficult decision to discontinue the branch. Whatever anyone says, this sounds less and less like the autocratic power-grab of a mad Labhras, and more like there was at least some culpability in the branch. Receiving public money does require a certain degree of transparency, but it's unclear what you meant in that sentence (in fact, there's no verb in the main clause: "One thing that all 'charities' music or otherwise, who are dependent on public support, from within or without,[Need? Must Have? Should Provide?] is total transparency and full accountability of action – not the case with the Clontarf affair, I believe.") I suspect you're overstating this. My experience is in the US, not Ireland, but it's not even clear what "total transparency and full accountability of action" means. Generally, transparency means: can the government and citizenry find out where their money went, and verify that it was not misappropriated? If you want to write to Comhaltas, request their annual reports, etc., you're likely to find that the answer is "yes," they are meeting the standards they have to meet for transparency. But it's always possible you'd catch them out. Good luck; it's not something you can find out on the Mudcat. As for "accountability," I don't know about Ireland, but it's not the case here in the US that a board of directors of a corporation that takes public money is accountable to anyone outside the company for internal affairs such as the constitution of committees or even the hiring and firing of employees. As long as such activities are carried out LEGALLY (ie the hirings and firings and dissolving of committees are not actually illegal under US law for reasons such as racial discrimination), there is little "accountability" to the public required. That said, if your organization seems to be behaving erratically, the Arts Council or whichever government office is the source of your funds can certainly take that into account when deciding on the next grant cycle. If you meant accountability in this limited sense, then I agree CCE needs to be careful--but they need to explain themselves primarily to their government funding sources, who represent "the people" in the question of whether and how much to fund CCE. Sparkles: how would it do any good to know why the constitution only allows amendments every six years? No matter what the answer was, there would still be no way to change it, except by normal constitutional procedures, i.e. within the sixth-year window. It might be that there's some sinister reason of bigwigs trying to "maintain the status quo," as others have ominously put it. Or it may be that whatever organization CCE based its first draft of the constitution on had a six-year frame, and no one has ever changed it. Or it might have been hashed out in committee (eg. some people wanted four years and others wanted eight years, and six was the compromise). It's very plausible to me, having been on committees that have established by-laws and constitutions for such organizations, that no one actually knows or remembers why six years was chosen. Given that, it's not necessarily sinister that no one is coming forward to justify or defend that decision now. And as I said, the reason is actually pretty irrelevant--if we think it needs to be changed, we should start now regardless of the original reason. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Apr 08 - 04:00 AM Cap'n, "I am surely entitled to keep an open mind, until I see a response from the people in CCE who have dissolved the Clondarf branch." And if they don't respond........? They certainly have had enough time to do so - how long are you prepared to give them? As far as I'm concerned, Breandán has presented the official line clearly enough for me to draw a conclusion. Nerd, Re charities. point taken, misinterpretation on my part, not deliberate. My point on transparency and accountability remains valid, I think. It seems clear to me that the nub of this dispute is whether the leadership of CCE should be answerable to the membership - or vise versa. I have to say that Eileen O'Connor's description of the 'dressing down of Clontarf Branch echoed perfectly the West London experience and leaves me in no doubt who should be responsible to whom as far as 'them upstairs' are concerned. Whether the participants in this discusion are members of CCE or not is totally irrelevant; anybody interested in Irish music, or traditional music in general, and is concerned about its future has a view worth listening to, as far as I'm concerned. In the same way, any Irish resident has a right to be assured that money coming from the public purse is being handled responsibly and openly and in the interest of Irish culture as a whole. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 05 Apr 08 - 06:52 AM jim,I think the sooner they respond the better. when I have nothing more important to do,I intend to visit comhaltas website,where I have been told there is a response. I would agree with a lot in your last post.,particualarly your last paragraph.[the public purse is not handled very responsibly by Bertie Ahern,WITNESS Berties Bowl,a much bigger waste of money,millons wasted,the battle of Clontarf pales in to insignificance] In my opinion the way you have worded your thread,indicates your dislike of Comhaltas,Comhaltas is an organisation that has done much good although thereareaspects of it that I would be extremely critical of.Dick Miles |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 05 Apr 08 - 07:34 AM Delighted to report a fantastic concert in the teachers' club last night, very inspirational. Thanks a million to all the performers for sharing your talent and your support with the "Reel Clontarf". Also delighted with the turnout at the Saturday morning classes today. All 21 teachers and 200 pupils present. Brid and Diarmaid at the desk (as always). Sorry to have lost Marie Connaughton. Around 60 parents turned up at 8.30 as well in a vote of confidence again in our democratically elected committee, a good gathering. No sign of the new "revitalised" committee who I thought were going to show to try and run our classes. Thank God, it would have been awkward to say the least. Business as usual at St Gabriels tonight for our U-12, U-15 and U-18 bands and groups. I dont think the new branch is going to work. Nobody wants it. By the way Breandán, I feel your loneliness. Did you ever see the film "Dances with Wolves"? Would you consider "goin native". You know you want to.. So happy days everyone. Cluain Tarbh mar a bhí, mar atá agus mar a bheidh go deo. beannachtaí Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Gulliver Date: 05 Apr 08 - 10:52 AM So sorry I couldn't attend the concert last night. I had to be at our Garda Club session, as two of our mainstays couldn't make it. Just a correction on an item that has cropped up from time to time: Labhrás wasn't responsible for the report to the Oireachtas on traditional music in 1999 (though he may have written parts of it and later defended it). This was the output of an Oireachtas committee chaired by a Fianna Fáil politician whose name escapes me at the moment. Labhrás's assistance was sought to carry out "research". I read the report last week in the Traditional Music Archive and parts of it are laughable, but the whole committee and in particular the chairman should shoulder the blame for producing it. Don |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Declan Date: 05 Apr 08 - 12:12 PM At the concert last night someone on stage (can't remember who) made a joke that the name of a horse running in the Grand National today nicely summarised the ultimatum received by the Branch from the Ard Comhairle - Comply or die. I'm off to the bookies to collect my winnings. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 05 Apr 08 - 01:42 PM I had the second and third, each way 20 to 1 and 16 to 1.Dick Miles |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Apr 08 - 03:21 AM Cap'n, Twice now you've suggested I might have a 'hidden agenda' in raising the question of the Clontarf branch, each time using my titles for this thread as evidence. The first title 'Battle of Clontarf' was innocuous enough and failed to get to much of a response, so I used a stronger one, which appeared to do the trick. Wish I could claim 'Comhaltas Interruptus' as my own creation, but it's a fairly popular one which came about around the time of the waves of protest at Labhrás' report in 2000. I have never made any secret of my disagreement with certain aspects of Comhaltas policy, particularly regarding competitions; I have argued the toss with you often enough on Mudcat. Nor have I attempted to hide my dislike and distrust of the leadership – this latest incident only serves to confirm my opinion of them. However, I have the greatest respect and admiration for the work done on behalf of Irish music by many of the branches. Many of the rank-and-file members are friends and have done much to boost my pleasure and increase my understanding of a music I have been involved in most of my life. As far as I am concerned, it is they who are being handed the crappy end of the stick by a leadership who I suspect might have a 'hidden agenda' themselves. Can I suggest that if you disagree with any of my arguments, you concentrate on them rather than tilting at imagined windmills. Gulliver; It appears to be fairly common knowledge that Labhrás drafted the 2000 report, which was 'nodded through' by the committee - they were then forced to take the unprecedented step of 'inviting submissions' from the many objectors - after it had been accepted! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 06 Apr 08 - 03:55 AM And I notice that six-year question has still not been answered. It's perfectly legitimate to ask why the existing rulebase cannot be challenged or amended more readily. Power does need to be kept in balance. The fact that there's no way to change things except within this time frame doesn't mean that the issue should not be addressed. But it's been blanked. That's the oldest politician's trick in the book, just don't answer until it goes away. (If Breandán doesn't know, somebody does.) And then we become the bad guys for asking. But it's a fair question about an unfair situation and silence is not an answer. It's a dodge. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:44 AM Jim,in my opinion your title does suggest a bias. I still dont know enough about the situation to be able say who is right or wrong,it seems to be pretty complicated. Comhaltas claim[Ithink I have this right]that a number of tradesman would have been unpaid,presumably they have now been paid by Comhaltas headquarters,. I would have thought this more important than the dissolving of a branch,all the people in the dissolved Comhaltas branch are not going to stop playing music,They can form their own club, independent of Comhaltas,teach music, put on concerts. many people throughout Ireland,play and teach music without Comhaltas involvement. what really pisses me off is when people/tradesman are not paid for their work. off thread,but if your concerned about justice try googling Equitable.a little more important,than this storm in a teacup I think. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Declan Date: 06 Apr 08 - 08:07 AM Captain, Of course the members of the "reel branch" can continue to play music as an independent organisation. Given the standard of Friday night's concert, they would, I think continue to attract great musicians to their events, and their clases would still be popular given the standard of their teachers. But (also speaking from what I heard on Friday - I'm not a member) they want to stay in Comhaltas even after what has happened, as they enjoy the cameraderie with the other Branches, the ability of their members to compete in Fleadhanna Cheoil etc. And, as an independent grouping, they would have to forego the use of the Classac building which they worked very hard to put in place. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:25 AM I agree the treatment does seem to have been unnecessary,unless there was a legal reason,for CCE head quarters acting as they have done,. That doesnt mean CCE are morally right either. If I knew the different people involved I might be able to decide who is right or wrong,but as I dont ,I can only extend my sympathy to the members of the Clontarf branch.Dick Miles |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST Date: 06 Apr 08 - 04:21 PM I would be disposed to be prejudiced against CCE HQ - after all, could anyone trust a man who has not only his hair but even his eyebrows tinted lol! - but my guiding principle is always "audi alteram partem". So congratulations are due to Breandán for his patient and open efforts to put the other side, and for not rising to the bait on the few occasions when some people have questioned his good faith, sometimes more aggressively than necessary in what has been a remarkably even-tempered thread. CCE's communication on this has been disastrous, and will reinforce hostility to the organisation where it exists - and many neutral observers will see this episode as autocratic mismanagement. When I became interested in traditional music, I joined Na Píobairí Uilleann which was seen as in some senses a "splinter group" (we used to tease Dan O'Dowd who remained a member of CCE Clontarf Branch for "consorting with the enemy"). The NPU view of CCE was heavily coloured by Breandán Breathnach's characterisation of it as an over-structured organisation which spent its time debating motions about the restoration of the uilleann pipes rather than doing anything practical about them. Whatever about its specific failings in relation to the pipes, that view was in general rather unfair to an organisation which has undeniably done so much to strengthen Irish traditional music, even if at the price of a competition culture which I find unappealing. In spite of my reservations about CCE, I supported suggestions by some people here in Brussels that we should consider setting up a branch here as a way of securing some financial support for trad music here, especially for the children who live here as expatriates (we no longer have an Irish clubhouse at our disposal because of declining membership of the Irish Club). One of the advantages that I saw in this was that it might be easier to secure sponsorship if we were a branch of a well-known national organisation. But in the light of all that I've been reading about Clontarf, I wonder if we could realistically expect any interest from CCE in our small-scale operation, never mind financial support, in the present climate. And I don't know if many Irish-related firms would even want to be associated with CCE at the moment. I have an awful feeling that, sooner or later, resolving the conflict will lead to more money being diverted from promoting Irish music into the pockets of our learned friends in the King's Inns than we spend on the music itself. Unless, of course, Bertie is asked to deploy his legendary skills as a mediator once he steps down from the office of Taoiseach! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST Date: 06 Apr 08 - 04:33 PM "Guest 04:21" is me, An Pluiméir Ceolmhar, gan cúicí. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Nerd Date: 06 Apr 08 - 08:50 PM Bonnie, As I said before, it won't actually do any good to know WHY the rules can only be changed every six years. And it is possible, given the way by-laws are written and passed by committee, that no one knows or remembers why it was set this way. All outrage aside, even if the leadership were to come out and say "it's so you lot of stinking plebs can't mess about with the rules very often," there wouldn't be much you could do about it--except change it next time the six year window opens. So I suggest people who don't like the rule put their energy into changing it, not finding out why it is as it is. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Gulliver Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:25 AM From today's Irish Independent web site: Comhaltas bosses to face a 'grilling' by city councillors Comhaltas Ceolteoiri chiefs are to be hauled before Dublin City Council to explain its handling of a major row with its largest local branch over a multi-million euro centre of excellence. The body charged with the promotion of Irish traditional music, which received over €6m in state funding last year, is in hot water with the council over the bitter ongoing feud with the Clontarf branch. The Sunday Independent has learned this weekend that unhappy councillors regard the dissolution of the local branch and its exclusion from the new €11 million Clasac building in Clontarf as a breach of its lease. More at Irish Independent web site Wow! Don |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Gulliver Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:56 AM A friend emailed me the URL of a support group (for whom, you might ask!) on Bebo: Support-Cluain-Tarbh-CCE (mind you, I'm with Dick Miles on this--LOL!) Don |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:20 PM The second half of that news article is especially interesting. Clickie of Don's link showing the full URL below, in case anyone needs to copy-&-paste. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/comhaltas-bosses-to-face-a-grilling-by-c |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:21 PM Woops. I mean http://www.independent.ie/national-news/comhaltas-bosses-to-face-a-grilling-by-city-councillors-1339717.html?r=RSS |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:27 PM Dick Miles has never defended CCE for expelling the Clontarf branch.check my posts I would advise everyone who lives in Ireland[including the posters on this thread, to join Comhaltas],you can only change the otrganisation if you join,many of the people on this thread who criticise Comhaltas are not members,if you seriously want to change Comhaltas,I believe you will only do it by joining. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:29 PM And then waiting for six years. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Gulliver Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:08 PM Dick, I hope you didn't get me wrong--I meant I agree with the following: before I come to any decision regarding who is right or wrong,I would like to hear/see both sides of the story,in the meantime I shall carry on playing music. I think that despite the accounts (not to mention accusations), etc., made by both sides, there is more going on here than meets the eye--everything seeming to be hunky-dory since the beginning and then the sh*t hits the fan like this? IMO (I worked for many years as a project manager), It just doesn't add up. Don |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Apr 08 - 02:33 PM "would advise everyone who lives in Ireland[including the posters on this thread, to join Comhaltas],you can only change the otrganisation if you join,many of the people on this thread who criticise Comhaltas are not members,if you seriously want to change Comhaltas,I believe you will only do it by joining." If we join CCE in order to change it, when are we going to get time to play or listen to music, as you have so often advocated. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Dick; we join thing we agree with, otherwise we'd be members of every organisation going. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 07 Apr 08 - 02:40 PM good reply Jim, about time I castled,or it will be checkmate in 292 moves. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:17 AM I experienced the first repercussions of the expulsion from outside of CCE yesterday. For some time now we have been preparing the ground for the setting up of a local traditional music archive/resource/display centre, which has included working with others who are not necessarily wishing to be involved, CCE being one such. Somebody remarked yesterday, "perhaps we shouldn't bother with them-what if they expel us and run off with our archive"! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 08 Apr 08 - 04:29 AM Bebo sites (Don mentioned one abov) probably set up by the kids of our branch. I know many of the kids in our branch well (am a parent of two in our bands and know all their friends in the branch, know most of the current children from my time helping to organise the Saturday morning classes over the last few years). Kids are kids, and do not get bogged down in procedures and policies. They are not impressed with recent developments and are probably expressing their feelings on bebo, just as we are doing here. However I can safely say, they will continue to meet and play music together as often as they can. We adult members will do everything we can to facilitate this for them. All our teachers are staying with us, the parents will continue doing what we were doing, the venues remain the same, we survived without Clasac up until now. The repercusions will be down the road, when it is these kids' turn to take up the mantle of passing on the music. I'm sure they will be influenced by the treatment our branch is receiving at the moment by HQ, and I cant imagine the comhaltas route being their own first choice in the future. One thing that strikes me strongly about the new committee. I know they see themselves as the voice of reason and experience, coming in to save the club from us "young things" (in our 40s and 50s!!) Is this the right thing to do? If your children grew up, had children of their own, and you watched their parenting methods and didnt agree with them (not the same as in your day). Would the best line of action be to cast them aside and take over parenting your grandchildren yourself, to "save" them from your children??? I think not. You've had your chance, move on and allow progress to take its course as nature intended.. Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 08 Apr 08 - 12:08 PM I experienced the first repercussions of the expulsion from outside of CCE yesterday. For some time now we have been preparing the ground for the setting up of a local traditional music archive/resource/display centre, which has included working with others who are not necessarily wishing to be involved, CCE being one such. Somebody remarked yesterday, "perhaps we shouldn't bother with them-what if they expel us and run off with our archive"! Jim Carroll Jim,if you wished to work with Comhaltas,surely you could draw up a legal document stating quite clearly who the archive belongs to,and only allowing comhaltas to use it under certain conditions,which GIVES THEM NO RIGHT OF OWNERSHIP OF THE ARCHIVE. how can they expel you,if you are not members of Comhaltas,what utter drivel. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:46 PM For crying out loud Cap'n what happened to trust - or are you accepting that we shouldn't trust Comhaltas unless we obtain their signature? Of course they couldn't expel us from Comhaltas - I used the (ironic) comment to illustrate how their behaviour is being viewed at present. I didn't mention the poster which mysteriously appeared on the wall of the local session showing a CCE logo clef in a circle with a diagonal red line through it - like a 'no smoking' sign. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:02 AM Our local branch does a lot to encourage children, to play music in a non competitive atmosphere.I see many children get alot of stimulation and pleasure from this,they also get a lot of pleasure from playing in ceilidh band and grupa ceol. Comhaltas is also the only organisation that teaches traditional music in England on a national basis.whatever the rights and wrongs of this particular case,let us not forget all the good Comhaltas has done,and is still doing. I think it would be a pity if this thread degenerated into an excuse for comhaltas bashing. I am not uncritical of Comhaltas,but I have witnessed first hand alot of pleasure, self esteem /skill,that children have got from being part of it.Dick Miles |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,PJ Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:29 AM OK, Dick. We hear you. It would also be a pity if this thread degenerated into bickering, which is what is starting to happen. You've made your point any number of times now. We know what you think. Can you stop repeating it now please? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 09 Apr 08 - 01:02 PM no. |
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