BS: Dems stop dancing

Subject: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 07:26 AM

beardedbruce and all others: Please observe the Copy and Paste suggestions in the FAQ. The political threads are especially bad right now. A tiny snip and your personal comments with the link only please.

Washington Post:

Dance Police at The Saloon

By George F. Will
Thursday, March 20, 2008; Page A15

PINAL COUNTY, Ariz. -- The government of this fiefdom south of Phoenix claims that when it approved Dale Bell's blueprint for his Western-theme restaurant with an outdoor stage in an enclosed courtyard, it assumed the stage would be used for mimes or poetry readings. Mimes in Arizona scrubland? Poetry at the San Tan Flat Steakhouse and Saloon? The authorities were, they insist, shocked when country music broke out, and they are scandalized because some customers, not content to tap their feet to the Western beat while they eat, get up and dance.

Foot tapping is, so far, still legal in Pinal County. Outdoor dancing is not, at least at a dance hall, and Pinal says San Tan Flat morphs into one at certain points on certain evenings, when customers dance and Bell does not make them stop. He thinks the U.S. Constitution's protection of self-expression encompasses the right to (in the language of his brief to the county court) "sway, shuffle or even dance."

Pinal's harassment of Bell is a small provincial spat, but it illustrates two large themes of our national history. First, democracy requires judicial supervision to thwart the excesses of elected officials. Second, governments closest to the people are -- never mind what sentimentalists say -- often the worst. This is because elected tyrants can most easily become entrenched where rival factions are few.

Singer Lee Alexander, who on a recent night sang his melancholy ballad "You Can't Dance Outside," says he has seen Sandie Smith, one of the three county supervisors (all of them Democrats), at another Pinal steakhouse where people dance outdoors. No one remembers when, if ever, Democrats did not control Pinal, which was created in 1875. Bell, 58, who served in the Reagan administration, calls himself "a Ron Paul guy."

He opened a steakhouse in his home town of Spearfish, S.D., sold it and opened another in Sand Creek, Wyo., then decided, with his son Spencer, now 17, to open one here. The board of supervisors warmly approved. Soon after it opened in November 2005, however, the trouble started.

He had four entrances from the road; the county restricted him to one. The county cut his signs from two to one. It turned its squint on his firewood, searching for defects. Supervisor Smith urged him to build a berm to confine the restaurant's light and dampen its sounds, so he erected a high wall of straw bales. Pinal toughened its noise ordinance, making it one of Arizona's strictest, restricting businesses to 65 decibels during the day and 60 at night. Sheriff's deputies checked the restaurant's decibel levels sometimes three times a night without ever finding a violation. The county doubled the number of paved parking spots originally required, costing Bell $40,000.

But when the county imposed fines against Bell of $5,000 every day that anyone dances, he headed for court. The question concerns statutory interpretation. The statute includes "dance hall" -- along with bowling alleys, penny arcades, skating rinks and other things -- among the "amusement or recreational" enterprises that must be "within a completely enclosed structure." Does Bell's restaurant, which makes 99.75 percent of its revenue from food and drink (the rest comes from pool tables and trinkets) become an illegal (because not completely enclosed) dance hall when someone rises to "sway, shuffle or even dance"?

Down in the legal weeds, Arizona's tax code says dance halls charge admission fees. Bell does not. And there is no Pinal prohibition -- an oversight, perhaps? -- of outdoor musical entertainment.

Beyond the weeds there is this mighty oak of a principle: There must be a judicial leash on governments to prevent them from arbitrarily asserting that the plain language of a statute means something that it plainly does not say.

The 14th Amendment's guarantees of equal protection and due process of law should mean that government may interfere with a citizen's economic liberty only to promote important government interests that cannot be advanced through less restrictive means. Under today's weak "rational basis" standard, courts validate virtually any abridgement of economic liberty, no matter how tenuous the connection to even a minor public purpose. Conservatives, note well: Restoring economic liberty requires a kind of judicial activism -- judges judging rather than merely ratifying government's caprices.

Despite Pinal County's nit-picking, Bell, who is represented by Arizona's chapter of the Institute for Justice, is still in business, partly because his customers fancy the Maine lobsters -- not normal fare at dance halls. Children prefer marshmallows they roast over fires next to the space for the forbidden dancing. Roasting is not illegal in Pinal, yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: kendall
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 07:59 AM

Is this the same gang that keeps sending John McCain to the senate?

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:11 AM

There's a STEAK HOUSE in Sand Creek???? I didn't know that!

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:46 AM

"Singer Lee Alexander, who on a recent night sang his melancholy ballad "You Can't Dance Outside," says he has seen Sandie Smith, one of the three county supervisors (all of them Democrats), at another Pinal steakhouse where people dance outdoors. No one remembers when, if ever, Democrats did not control Pinal, which was created in 1875. "

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:55 AM

Bruce...... the implication is clear here. Are you sure you want to get into this as a condemnation of Democrats????????? I have always seen you as a very bright guy, but I don't think you want a scorecard of officials using undue influence which pits Dems against Repubs.

Your reason for starting the thread is crystal clear ...... and beneath you.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:07 AM

Technically bright perhaps, but everyone is entitled to some degree of human irrational emotion.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:09 AM

Seems to me that the officials in Pinal County need a good dose of reality salts.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Bee
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:18 AM

Leaving politics out of it, I wonder how far back in history you have to go to find out why dancing provokes so much unease among the more staid members of any population? I know there are the often religiously slanted prohibitions because of the physical nature of dancing - too lascivious - and the connection with alcohol - too much drunkeness - but I'll bet it goes further back than that. Pre-Christian ceremonial dancing, maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:21 AM

Don't Babtists still ban dancing. Didn't they decree tha women must ALWAYS OBEY men. Of course once you mix religion with politics you always get concentrated politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:17 AM

Time to remember all the counterculture concerts, coffeehouses, bookshops, headshops, and other youth gatherings that were (and are) regularly singled out for selective enforcement of zoning and other regulations in Republican dominated towns.

Which side do you think George F. Will was on then?

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: maeve
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:18 AM

Donuel, perhaps you've forgotten there are different branches of Baptists?

Once sweeping statements are posted it's hard to avoid misinformation. Accusations and the misuse of "They" tends to be an indicator of bias, unintentional though it may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:20 AM

what Mick said. I read for 2 minutes before I figured out what "Dems" had to do with it. Turns out, it's very little. I'm sure I could 'find' articles where 'Repubs' did something silly...but....

What IS it with carrying on a discussion with lengthy C&P? If you find something especially egregious, paste an excerpt, and a link, and YOUR analysis or opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:26 AM

Mick,

Yet it seems ok for others to bash Reps,

Do I detect a double standard?



Bobert suggests disenfranchising all those "NASCAR voters" so that we can get the "correct" results in elections. Statements are made, that if I made the same changing the sides would get me kicked off Mudcat- Yet if they support the "popular" viewpoint are accepted as perfectly ok. One is free to express one's opinion, as long as it agrees with the "popular" one- otherwise one is attacked on a personal level, and THAT is ok.

When I see the SAME level of critism leveled at either side of the argument, then I might not have to bother to point out that BOTH parties are human, and when in power will take advantage of it and run over the rights of everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:28 AM

BillD,

The post articles disaapear after a day or so- hard for a link to make sense- I then get bashed for not supporting my viewpoint.

But I guess it is ok to have a catch-22 as long as one applies it only to those one disagrees with.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Peace
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:34 AM

Repubs: what it's called when the old pub is renovated.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:35 AM

Demos- what it is called when something is shown to the customer. Not always what the final delivery gives you...

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:37 AM

What I would expect of someone of your caliber is a thread on double standards, instead of a trolling thread that is bound to just decay into another set of "Oh Yeahs". There is a double standard, and some of us are working on correcting that. The rules in threads are being enforced in more even ways. As long as you use a consistent ID, don't use personal attacks, and don't seek to be purposely disruptive, you are free to post what you like. But one of the things that those loosely classified under the Conservative-Repub-loyalist, etc. camps seem to be angry about is that they are outnumbered so they get taken on more. Sorry, guy, that is just demographics. If one can't deal with that, they are on the wrong site. But what they can do is to post well informed commentary, based on solid and verifiable information, and put forth their views that way. What you are doing is just bound to get you attacked and provide no sense of satisfaction or debate that is worthwhile.

With no personal animus, let me just say that using terms like "NASCAR voters" to condemn a whole segment of the voting population is just reprehensible and anti intellectual. The simple fact is that whoever is going to be the President of this country is going to have to appeal to some part of all the myriad interests in this country in a way to reach a consensus on who is best, at this time in our history, to lead. It is my opinion that broad and oversimplified terms like this are demeaning to the intelligence of the voter. Just because someone is not on the same page as I am politically, does not make them evil, dumb, or uninformed. It is up to folks like us to explain our positions in a way that will draw folks to us.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:39 AM

I don't think this aberration of small-mindedness has anything at all to do with the party affiliation of those nutballs, Bruce.

The sad truth, and you and I both know it, is that there is a human trait called stupidity, which is so innate in any collection of more than one human being, that it transcends all party, policy or principle. It can be found anywhere two or more are gathered, on any excuse.

This is an example of such stupidity. Trying to assert that it is somehow related to their political brand might well be another.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:42 AM

well, Bruce...it's the same old same old.

"Yet it seems ok for others to bash Reps,
Do I detect a double standard?"

You use this basic argument for almost every debate. "You found fault with a Republican once, so any criticism of a Democrat is fair game, whether it is relevant or not."


If you want to 'bash' Democrats, find some issue of substance, not some silly 'dancing' bit in some small town where it could just as easily have BEEN Republicans making silly rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 11:00 AM

Lately one can be easily be accused of bashing or being politically incorrect even if you are writing about a jack in the pulpit or daffodil.

I think what people love to "bash" are ass holes. The political affiliation is pretty far down the list. The #1 criterion for bashing is ass holedom and will always be assholedom.
Next could be:
greed
hypocrisy
murder

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Arkie
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 11:27 AM

The problem here does not seem to be dancing. Someone from "off" has opened a business and local thugs are determined to hassle the outsiders and put them out of business.

While the situation is worthy of notice and a good example of what can happen in communities in this country to make it a democrat or republican issue is just plain stupid and reflective of a dangerous attitude that is growing in this country. Any reasonable observer would recognize this reprehensible situation for what it is. To twist it into a generalization about a political group serves no useful purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Peace
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 11:55 AM

BB is a poet. Even they make errors now and then. Remember the old adage: Hate the spin, love the spinner.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Peace
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 11:56 AM

Uh, pardon my immodesty, but THAT was good! Hold the applause; not necsssary amongst friends. BFN.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:01 PM

Mick,

"With no personal animus, let me just say that using terms like "NASCAR voters" to condemn a whole segment of the voting population is just reprehensible and anti intellectual."


Yet you make a comment about my thread, and no-one said anything when Bobert determined that it was such a good idea to keep people from voting unless they agreed with him...


"The simple fact is that whoever is going to be the President of this country is going to have to appeal to some part of all the myriad interests in this country in a way to reach a consensus on who is best, at this time in our history, to lead. It is my opinion that broad and oversimplified terms like this are demeaning to the intelligence of the voter. Just because someone is not on the same page as I am politically, does not make them The simple fact is that whoever is going to be the President of this country is going to have to appeal to some part of all the myriad interests in this country in a way to reach a consensus on who is best, at this time in our history, to lead. It is my opinion that broad and oversimplified terms like this are demeaning to the intelligence of the voter. Just because someone is not on the same page as I am politically, does not make them evil, dumb, or uninformed. It is up to folks like us to explain our positions in a way that will draw folks to us.
It is up to folks like us to explain our positions in a way that will draw folks to us."

I agree 100%- so why are there so many examples here of the opposite, that are never criticised ( as long as it is conservatives that are being claimed are "evil, dumb, or uninformed" THAT seems to go without any comment.)

Subject: edited
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:10 PM

Conservatives are being called evil, dumb, or uninformed because they have one note to play on every issue foreign or domestic.

Granted they make money on that one note but that one note exaccerbates the problem every time.

Domestically the one note is deregulation for corporations and stop taxing the rich.

Globally the one note is a military response.


You might be tempted to ask me what is the alternative. I will tell you.

The trillion dollars that have gone down the drain have bought us widows and orphanes who will not be sympathetic to the US for their lifetime.
That same Trillion dollars $1,000,000,000,000.00 could have shored up our own infrastructure in this climate changing world but also could have brought water to every God forsaken area in the Middle East.

With water there is food production, better heath, hope, prosperity and more fun. With bombs there is none of that.


While everyone is arguing over "its the oil" or "its the nukes"
Its always been about the WATER. Its going to be about WATER more and more every year.

Yes radical fundamentalist countries like Indonesia don't have a water scarcity but all the other ones do. While 10 to 20 million kids are going to die this coming year in water scarce regions becasue of the lack of water and all the resouces that water brings, we really don't hear much about them.


Thinking outside the military solution box or the no taxes box is a good thing to do and would be wise for the conservatives to make this their new cause. If they talked this way they might get my vote.


Does that make conservatives "evil, dumb, or uninformed?

maybe just intentionaly uninformed or uncaring.
Conservative policies have made quick profits off of slave labor in a global, prison and welfare economy. Empire building has always been able to do that. There is a new model that will enrich us all without the blowback of empire buiding with bombs.

We have an entire orchestra capable of playing notes of infinite numbers with science, technology, global co operation and green energy industries.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:20 PM

What do you expect from a county where financial abuse of the elderly is an industry and the courts turn a blind eye?

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:20 PM

Deregulation and the hands off the billionaire hedge fund market will devalue your property along with everyone else.

Its not just about "the economy stupid"
It is about H2O, be it too much or too little.
We are in this together sink or swim.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:26 PM

sorry dianavan I was still trying to get a response form our proud conservative to my thesis.

From an economic viewpoint the elderly will never drag down our economy but they are prone to easy exploitation for big bucks.

I was involved in cleaning up the NY State Hospitals of the physical abuse that was growing rampant along with a friend who worked there.
All it took was a well heeled Republican whose mother was in the facility to bring down the full weight of courts and public opinion abainst the abuses of the elderly and infirm.
We couldn't have done it alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: GUEST,Peace--sans biscuit.
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:27 PM

Noah: how long can you tread water?

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:42 PM

Noah: Lord, who's gonna clean up all that shit in the bottom of the ark?

Lord: Noah, here are the plans for the holy pooper scooper.






13 people drowned today as the floods in the US midwest continue.
When Bagladesh floods it claims thousands.
An estimated 30,000 children in the desserts of Africa and the middle east died today of thirst and malnutrition.

Desalinization plants powered by solar and tidal energy may be the only way to go when there is no rain or rivers.

If we build it they will come.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:51 PM

"HAte the spin, love the spinner....".


Absolutely classic, dude.


Water is opne of two critical-path elements on the road to humanity's survival, or not. The other is energy. We have an abundance of both in this planet, but the distribution of them has been left to chance, pretty much, except for the simple electrical grids and hydr-engineering projects that have eben done in local areas.

For example there have been   686,059,821 lightning strikes this year, around the world, each one unleashing thousands of terajoules of raw energy. In the same period, the solar energy striking the planet amounts to the equivalent of 596,184,652,887 metric tons of coal. In the same period humans have consumed energy equivalent to 2,458,208,335 metric tons of coal, while "producing" slightly more than that. Figures are from World Meters.

As for water, the same source says that while we have consumed over 900 billion liters of water, as a species, this year, there have been as well over a million deaths due to water-related diseases, and about 1.3 billion people who have no access to safe drinking water, the staff of life.

Other numbers of curiosity: 887 million undernourished people, 1.1 billion overwieght people, and over 7 billion dollares spent on dieting in the US this year.

All of these are statistical symptoms of a planetary distortion, a situation that needs care, concern, comeptent engineering and far-sighted planning to overcome.

Can we do that?

Yes, we can.

Whether we will or not depends entirely on the importances selected by our leaders and representatives.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:37 PM

My thoughts about the Dancing Dems is that they'll be waltzing in more than 60 partners into to the Senate along with a Pres & a VP because of the past 8 yrs that they've had to dance to a repub tune so you Repubs better dress up in your Sunday best & start to put taps on the toes of your shoes & get to memorizing all the steps that you'll soon be dancing to. "No More Fillabusters" in G#, "Overrides Galore" in any major key, "Viva the Veto Will Go" usually done in mountain modal. "Will Piss on the President's Grave After He's Gone" done slowly & we'll all waltz to "To Hell & The Devil With the Chief".
Your dancing days are done BB, so you & all this sillyness will be a legacy you'll be living with for some time in the future.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:55 PM

Even a 200 foot metal tower collects a lot of electricity on a clear day. Don't ask me how or why but they do.

touche' Barry.
I used to think that Nixon caused an incredible amount of damage to the presidency and the country.
He was a saint compared to George W Cheney.

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:06 PM

It collects electricity from the movement of electrons and molecule in the air shifting charges about, just the way your party balloon does when you rub it on your sweater, or your body does when you shuffle across a carpet on a dry day and then get zapped touching the doorknob.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Dems stop dancing
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 07:45 PM

If it wasn't for "evil. dumb. and ill-informed" statements, there would be no internet discussion forums--