BS: What is a Western Movie?

Subject: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 10:20 PM

What qualifies as a Western? This question came up several times on Jack the Sailor's thread about 'A' western movies. I'd like to offer my thoughts on this, as I could find no really good answers from a cursory exploration of websites. Generally, I would think of the West as the Great Plains to the Pacific Coast, from Texas to the Canadian Border. But the 18th century west might be from the Appalachian Mountains to the Mississippi River. For no real reason, I would think of the period after the War of 1812 through the end of that century. But my last category, to my mind, covers the modern west of 'Lonely Are the Brave' or 'The Misfits'.

I have set-up some basic genres, but these are just my thoughts, and you may have others or disagree with some of mine:
*Trappers and trailblazers.
*Cowboys doing cowboy work…chores around the spread, trail drives, sheepmen etc…against the vicissitudes of man and/or nature.
*Drifters who find themselves involved in the problems in a town, or a range war, or the like.
*Town tamers, sheriffs and marshals, either for good or bad.
*Cavalry vs. the Indians.
* Western migration: settling the frontier, a gold rush or a land rush.
*Building a stagecoach line, telegraph or railroad.
*Outlaws robbing trains and banks, alone or as gangs, and the lawmen who brought them to justice…or not.
*The Civil War in the west.
*Closing of the west: barbed wire, urbanization, mechanization.

Perhaps some of these overlap, or, surely there are others some of you might add.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: number 6
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 10:37 PM

As I mentioned it in that other thread John (and I was serious) ... it's a good question. But one aspect of it all that came to mind from that other thread is that some of the best movies of all time have been Western movies. Is it the independant free soul of of the 'cowboy', the untamed land, love of nature, good versus evil that somehow is portrayed in these movies that defines it in a genre of it's own and is what attracts us to them?

You mentioned the Misfits ... one of my favourite movies ... it is a fine example of a story that reflects the end of the 'western' way of life ... the taming and destruction of freedom.

I'll be watching this thread.

thanks for starting it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 11:12 PM

Quest / promise: e.g. Three Burials 2001?

Yojimbo 1380? (Drifters who find themselves involved in the problems in a town, or a range war, or the like.)

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 11:57 PM

To me, a Western means horses. I realize there have been some made that are set in modern times but to me those are not real westerns. :)

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 12:08 AM

I wouldn't call movies about trappers and trailblazers "Westerns." Maybe a sub-genre, but to me a real Western has horses, cowboys, lawmen, outlaws, Indians, homesteaders/sodbusters, a frontier fort, stagecoach, maybe a wagon train, a school marm, saloon girl, ma & pa, etc.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Slag
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 12:13 AM

You raise an interesting question. You could mark the period as beginning with the currency of the six-shooter and ending with John Browning's automatic rifle and semi-automatic pistol. Or you could date it from the end of the Civil War until WWI. Zane Grey would agree with that, I think (Under the Tonto Rim). You could even legitimately argue that it began with the vaqueros and still lives today in certain places. "Junior Bonner", "The Misfits"!

Or you might take a different tact altogether. The discovery of gold at Sutter's Mill began a western movement that radically altered the nature of the entire country. The slower, more gradual populating of the West was supplanted by a radical influx from around the world and the clash of cultures was impossible to foresee or forestall. Throw in the upturn of inventiveness and sweeping technological advances and you could point to any of hundreds of markers of the era.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Janie
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 12:23 AM

I like your categories, John. They make a lot of sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 12:43 AM

You're all into a particular genre of Western film, but these horse operas aren't the extent of it.

This question gets rehashed regularly on a western literature academic discussion list I've belonged to for years.

You have to realize that you're overlooking the huge population centers of the urban west. San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Phoenix, Tucson, Portland, Seattle, and many other quite large cities are also Western. So their stories are Westerns. Just not the genre you've pigeon-holed in this thread.

Where does this West of yours begin and end? At political boundaries? The Sonoran Desert of Sonoyta, two miles south of the U.S./Mexico border, is identical to Lukeville, at the border in Arizona. And on and on. Is Bellingham, Washington, Western? It is much further west than Los Angeles and Phoenix. So does Vancouver, B.C., count then, since it is so close to Bellingham? And what about Alaska?

You're generally safer sticking to bioregions and spanning history than you are trying to pick a historic moment and layer it over the region.

SRS (my academic two cents worth)

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 01:59 AM

Western or not a Western, besides being set in the west (except one) ---in your opinion:
The Far Horizons - the Lewis and Clark explorations of 1804/5
Mark of Zorro - set in Mexican California
The Alamo - 1836 to fight make Texas independent
The Big Sky - Trappers in the northern plains territories about 1830s
Buffalo Bill - a 'biography' of the Wild West Show entrepreneuer
Union Pacific - building that rail road
Jesse James - tale of the outlaw who probably was never west of Missouri
Giant - Texas ranching dynasty at turn of 20th century
Quigley Down Under - American gunfighter in Australia
Baron of Arizona - Con man claims the Arizona territory based on forged
                   Spanish land grant papers

If you don't consider them westerns, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 02:09 AM

I wrote one where GWB is the idiot Sheriff. Jeb, Dick, Clint - all the usual suspects.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 03:00 AM

In the end, I think we can only offer subjective views on what we think Westerns are. When I go to see a "Western", I expect it to be set in a small town at sometime between the end of the Civil War and WWI. It will be set well West (and South) of New England but not quite as far away as the West Coast. I expect horses, punch ups and shoot outs and probably a scene in the cliched saloon. I also expect to see the stock characters mentioned by Kat. I think any of the classic Westerns, which spring to my mind, has those elements. That does not make me any less interested in the sort of films described by John or Stilly River Sage, but if I am told that a film will be a "Western", that is what I expect to see.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Slag
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 04:14 AM

OK (Corral?)! The quintessential Western must have:
The stench of horses
Cowboys
Bandannas, boots, bullet belts, badges and a lot of alliteration.
A virtuous woman
A soiled Rose
Spurs
Colt .45 Peacemakers
Winchester 30-30 with or without saddle ring
A good guy gone wrong OR
A bad guy gone right
Especially needed, a razor sharp definition OF Right and Wrong
A showdown/climax of blazing guns and dramatic death throes
And a terse summation from the protagonist.

Not entirely essential but would be sorely missed are:

A sidekick.
A saloon with bad whisky, cheap women and gamblin'
A pathetic kid
Indians
Rattlesnakes
A lynchin' or two and concomitant mob
A big sky with a contrail or two!
Conestoga wagons
Wanted posters
Dynamite

Feel free to add to it!

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 04:42 AM

In the 50s and 60s Westerns seemed to follow the same pattern over and over again. They were either set in some unspecified location, which I suspect was some tract of the Californian countryside reasonably close to the studio or,if the budget was a bit bigger, it would be set in Monument Valley.

Some improbable conflict situation would be set up involving good guys and bad guys. Just as the conflict began to get (mildly) interesting an improbably glamorous woman would appear (usually immculately coifed and made-up and dressed in some approximation of 'Victorian' costume). This woman would then 'fall-in-love' with the 'hero' and the whole thing would bog down whilst this tedious romance was tediously pursued. Then there would be a final gunfight and the baddies would be defeated. The hero would get the girl - THE END.

It's no wonder Westerns declined in popularity! I certainly learned absolutely nothing about the history of North America from them.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 05:25 AM

Shimrod! telling us the end of the film. when we were all on the edge our seats with excitement. I bet you were one of those kids who sat behind me in the cinema, going I've seen this before - this is where he falls in the water,.... etc.

If you want to know about history - read a book, or watch the history channel.

Going into a western with that attitude is like saying - bloody sonnets fourteen crappy lines and you know what the last words going to rhyme with!

Or going to the ballet and saying - why are those silly sods on their toes and if that bloody swan dies again, I'll ask for me money back. She did that last week,and then she got up again at the end - she wasn't really dead.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 05:46 AM

Guess this http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8zEKaW9vmIg says loads about the genre

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:12 AM

Ya' know John..............I thought about starting a similar thread but it seemed to me this subject is like asking "What is Folk?"   LOL.....,,I don't mean that in a bad way though. It can be fun just to talk it back and forth but I'm pretty sure we'll never see much agreement(;<)) So to that end let me add.................

Perhaps we can all agree on the ones "in the middle." Movies like "Winchester '73" and "Shane" are probably the classics of the genre although they may lack the "reality" of later films. With the exception of a very few it isn't necessary that we have historical accuracy. Westerns only need be entertainment, not history (although they can be). Many of the central classics pay a passing nod to historical accuracy.

The real tough ones to classify for me would be some of my favorites. Very enjoyable (to me, YMMV) and somehow "cowboy" related, "The Misfits," "Junior Bonner," and even the schlocky "Bronco Billy,"(sorry, I like it---its fun!) should have some category.

Westerns are a pretty broad classification and I think there is room for whatever you think is a Western being a Western!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Slag
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:56 AM

Filming locales! Yes! Half the Westerns ever made (not to mention many other dramas set in modern times) have a formation called "The Mormon Rocks" in them. Even Star Trek where Kirk fought the guy with the rubber lizard head. They are a group of sandstone rocks that slant at about a 45 degree angle. The are located at the top of Cajon Pass just off 395 heading out of San Bernardino into the high desert. Once you identify this group you will be seeing them forever. If you turn left first chance you get after you reach the desert you will be headed toward Antelope Valley. This is on the back side of the San Gabriel Mountains. That's the ones you see during the Rose Parade and Rose Bowl Football Game. The were the backdrop for The Outlaw Jose Wales and many other Westerns. You will often see the San Gabriels and Mormon Rocks in the same flick. It doesn't cost a whole lot nor take too long to move your equipment 15 or 20 miles down the road.

If you continue up 395 you will come to the (once little) town of Victorville. Just over the Mojave River (yes there is a river that runs through part of the Mojave Desert) you come to Apple Valley Where Roy Rogers lived. Many of his movies were filmed in this location as well as some of Gene Autry's. However a greater number of those B movies were filmed in studio back lots in the Hollywood Hills, Thousand Oaks, Semi Valley and the like.

The Grand Tetons was the backdrop for Shane and many other movies. Jackson Hole WY just south of the Grand Tetons Nat'l Park Has also seen many films produced. "Any Which Way But Loose" ends up here.

John Huston had a financial partner in Walter Boone and together they formed the HB Cattle Ranch located just west of California Hot Springs in the Sierra Nevada foothills. It was a 70 section (square miles) working cattle ranch (and is to this day) and Huston ( he was the grizzled old prospector in Treasure of the Sierra Madre) produced at least two early Westerns on this beautiful ranch. I can't remember their titles just off hand, sorry.

John Wayne had a ranch near Casa Grande AZ and I believe that it served as an occasional backdrop for some of his movies. I'll have to check with my "known source" on that one as her uncle was Wayne's foreman on that ranch.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:16 AM

I think for a Western Movie to work it has to be cut off from the larger society. Something happens in a small town, and it has to be handled by the local people. Or it happens on a cattle drive or on a ranch, but the entire episode is isolated and remote from the rest of everything.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 09:11 AM

So Rig......Seen any of the "Magnificent 7" series?   How about "Shane?" Or a couple hundred others where someone, although possibly hired by a "local," comes to town and kicks the villain's ass (which might be local ass)?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 10:13 AM

WLD,

I don't mind formulae but the standard Western formula was so bloody tedious! It was also bloodless (no pun intended - all gunshots were either fatal or involved a virtually trauma-less wound to the arm - very little blood).

I read a lot of books about The West when I was younger - and virtually none of what I read about appeared on screen. As for:

"If you want to know about history - read a book, or watch the history channel."

This is part of the old 'entertainment should be mindless' debate ("bollocks" is the short answer to this assertion!). I'm an information junky - I need to know about things. For me, an historical film should vicariously convey something about what it FELT like to live during a particular historical period. At the end of the day I don't mind if it is later revealed that the filmaker made it all up - just as long as it's not just lazily formulaic and I can't see the joins at the time I'm watching the film.

Thanks for the info. 'Slag'. I thought that it was somewhere in California in all those films - even though I've never been there.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 10:24 AM

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I don't think any of us expect the Wild West of Western films to be anything but mythical. We see shoot outs in Tombstone, but we learn that in the latter years of the nineteenth century there was a homicide rate of about one a year. We see fast draws with stunning accuracy even though we know that the guns of the day were not capable of this. We see stock characters, who are essentially a creation of the film industry. The world of Western films is a mythical one. I believe it makes no sense to view it in any other way. I find soap opera repulsive for all the reasons (and more) that Shimrod dislikes Westerns. I know Westerns are a dumb fantasy, but I am more than happy to suspend my disbelief for an hour or two of unpretentious entertainment. No disrespect to those, who aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 10:40 AM

"So Rig......Seen any of the "Magnificent 7" series?   How about "Shane?" Or a couple hundred others where someone, although possibly hired by a "local," comes to town and kicks the villain's ass (which might be local ass)?"


                   Yeah, isn't that exactly what I said?

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 10:59 AM

Classic Westerns:

The Maltese Falcon

East of Eden

Blade Runner

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:01 AM

Okay, I'll bite. If you're East of Eden, how do you get way out west?

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:13 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_%28genre%29

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:15 AM

Thank you all for your well thought out answers. As Alanabit noted, it is our subjective view on what makes a 'western'; I'm look forward to more opinions.

I think that all of the titles I mentioned this morning (actually last night on the sunset coast) are westerns. But for me the classic western setting would be the decades of the 1870s/80s, and the story would have many of the elements,in various combinations, noted above. It would be a moral tale of big/small, altruism/greed, good/evil....but it could also be a story about just overcoming the hardships of life in a rural setting.

I don't expect to find historic accuracy, necessarily; else why would we have umpteen versions of the OK Corral story, and why would Wyatt Earp be portrayed as a man in his 50s or 60s in 'Winchester '73', when he actually would have been about 35 years old then?

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:18 AM

"My Baby Loves The Western Movies"... now it's a Music Thread! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:18 AM

The historical novel is by John Steinbeck, set in California. Are you not familiar with it? Steinbeck was a modernist writer, lots of classical and literary references, and this novel is aligned with a biblical theme (Cain and Abel). The title (I cheated and went to Wikipedia, I didn't want to rummage my notes) is from the full quote in Genesis: "And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden."

Another wonderful novel (all of his were, and the lion's share were set in the west) was Grapes of Wrath. Now that's a Western! Love those old trucks and hobo camps. . .

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:21 AM

And it could be argued successfully, I think, that the Film Noir is an American film approach that suits films set in the west particularly well.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:24 AM

It might well help to understand where the term 'Western' started.
Did it emanate from the British idea of "The Wild West' which was representative of the US pre 1900 generally and which presented as cowboys, indians, prospectors, sheriffs, Wells Fargo, the cavalry, forts, tepees,wigwams, Pinkertons agency, wincheters, colts, etc etc?
I have no idea personally but that's my guess.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:25 AM

Mr. Happy, while I don't necessarily disagree with that information, I normally take Wikipedia with a grain of salt. Anybody can post to it (I have) with information which may be unverified, and sometimes downright wrong...perhaps maliciously so. While many see sites like this as a boon to the information age, I view it as I would information often called into political talk shows. I'm wary of anonymous 'information.'

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: pdq
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:33 AM

There should be some limits put on the term 'western movie" else "Buck Benny Rides Again" would qualify.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM

Katlaughing makes and interesting point.

In the thread I started I wondered if Seven Samurai was a western, it really has all of the elements except for location and language.

I think a movie genre, more than anything else is defined by the antagonist
Treasure of Sierra Madre, one of my favorite movies, does not have the feel of a western. The plot is not straightforward and the antagonist ends up being Dobbs' animal nature rather than indians or rustlers or rail road barons.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM

My point is that the term "Western Movie" is larger than the genre that these guys are discussing.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: pdq
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:46 AM

Then "Buck Benny Rides Again" is a Western ???.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:50 AM

Jack, Seven Samurai's is a western, "The Magnificent Seven."

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:56 AM

The Seven Samurai must be an Eastern Western!

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 12:01 PM

I have both on DVD and have watched them for comparison. The original story translated quite well as a Western.

I had a specific idea when I started that thread but even now I can only describe it with examples

I think a more narrow term which describes what a lot of folks think of as a Western, might be "Horse Opera".

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 12:01 PM

I can't believe I forgot the cattle herd, at some point stampeding and also six-shooters! OH, and only greenhorns and city slickers tucked their pants inside their cowboy boots!

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 12:53 PM

The Frontier In American History by Frederick Jackson Turner.

The first essay, originally presented at the World's Columbian Exposition in 1893, begins:

THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE FRONTIER IN AMERICAN HISTORY 1

In a recent bulletin of the Superintendent of the Census for 1890 appear these significant words: "Up to and including 1880 the country had a frontier of settlement, but at present the unsettled area has been so broken into by isolated bodies of settlement that there can hardly be said to be a frontier line. In the discussion of its extent, its westward movement, etc., it can not, therefore, any longer have a place in the census reports." This brief official statement marks the closing of a great historic movement. Up to our own day American history has been in a large degree the history of the colonization of the Great West. The existence of an area of free land, its continuous recession, and the advance of American settlement westward, explain American development.

This is his footnote:

1 A paper read at the meeting of the American Historical Association in Chicago, July 12, 1893. It first appeared in the Proceedings of the State Historical Society of Wisconsin, December 14, 1893, with the following note: "The foundation of this paper is my article entitled 'Problems in American History,' which appeared in The Ægis, a publication of the students of the University of Wisconsin, November 4, 1892... It is gratifying to find that Professor Woodrow Wilson-- whose volume on 'Division and Reunion' in the Epochs of American History Series, has an appreciative estimate of the importance of the West as a factor in American history--accepts some of the views set forth in the papers above mentioned, and enhances their value by his lucid and suggestive treatment of them in his article in The Forum December, 1893, reviewing Goldwin Smith's 'History of the United States.'" The present text is that of the Report of the American Historical Association for 1893, 199-227. It was printed with additions in the Fifth Year Book of the National Herbart Society, and in various other publications.


This 1893 essay is still important today in this discussion. The link is to an open access hypertext version of a book that collected many of his essays.

You'll find this has a lot to do with what people understand about The West.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 07:15 PM

No no no!

the maltese falcon my arse......

where were the cowboy hats, the six shooters, the stagecoaches, the horses...

And more to the point the vision of america as a great frontier waitng for the brave and the hopeful...When you respect the form its still possible, as in Wyatt earp. The lyricism of lawrence Kasdan's work is breathtaking - even to think about.

The Maltese Falcom is film noir.........decadent forces of law and order chasing after social misfits.

and thats what its about really. the grace of the actors, the epic sense of human possibilty - whether it be for good or evil, the dramtic backdrop of one of the most interesting periods of history.....

Rather like Isherwood's Berlin novels have a dramatic backdrop because they prefigure th holocaust.

some times in our history just seem to have a special significance.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:08 PM

Any film with Americans who don't live in cities, and who wear hats with big brims.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:16 PM

You mean like Captains Courageous?

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Slag
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:19 PM

Until Oklahoma entered the Union in 1907 it was Indian Territory and says so on my Grandfather's birth certificate. New Mexico, followed by Arizona entered the Union in 1913, I believe and in a way you could argue that there were no more frontiers, or better, that the frontiers (borders) were now established.

The Western, as a genre, has a series of frontiers which reflect different aspects of the West and which have direct ties to historical events. Within the genre you have at least three main divisions, the purely historical, which may lack accuracy and include embellishments but purports nothing beyond the historical events, eg "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid".

Then you have fictions which allude to historical events or use such an event as merely a setting for the tale eg "Boots and Saddles".

And lastly you have the pure Western fantasy such as "Support Your Local Sheriff" and "Open Range".

As for placement, I like the term offered by someone above ( I think it was Kat) "Buckskins" which represent the very earliest western push as the European settlers, now established along the East Coast began a push into the interior along the Ohio River and on into Kentucky and Tennessee and then into Missouri and what are now the Mississippian states.

Saint Louis became the main embarkation point into the West proper and I would contend that the westward expansion from the Mississippi constitutes the real dividing point for the geographical limit of the genre. Mark Twain sits astride this great boundary and gives us a real insider's look in both directions at once. Is it any wonder that the man had such a sense of humor?!

The Great Oklahoma Land Rush, while surely a defining moment of western incursion does not really set a boundary but serves as an event or series of events for further development of the West. Rather, as for the movie genre you have John Chisholm located between the Rio Lobos and the Pecos River. Many of the Westerns and Pure Westerns center around the cattle drives to the Abilene KS rail heads.

The Pecos River is the next boundary and the saga of Judge Roy Bean and Lily Langtry figures prominently here.

Next comes not a river but the great deserts of the American Southwest and another division which runs north, the Oregon Trail. In the southern route lay Death Valley which epitomizes the harsh barrier the deserts were and to the north lay higher elevation deserts and the Great Salt Lake. Neither direction was a picnic.

And a last barrier, common to both directions is a magnificent wall of granite which reaches to an elevation of 14,494 feet (4556.5 m) and extends from the transverse San Gabriel Range of Southern California to Mt. Lassen in the north where it blends into the Cascades Range that extends on into Washington State, a formidable barrier. And of course the northwestern slope of the Sierra Nevadas holds the goldfields which really fired the great push west.

So take your choice of time and location. There are stories just waiting to be told and Hollywood has not nearly exhausted the supply at hand. Just cautious money men who haven't got the cajones or imagination to do a really righteous Western movie about a story that has not yet been told.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:28 PM

Hats weren't big enough, and the brims were the wrong shape. And it was written by Rudyard Kipling.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 09:25 PM

It occurs to me to ask why, if stories and films about this relatively short period in American history have such widespread resonance with people of so many ages and countries and cultures, folk music (1945 definition) is so widely criticised as irrelevant to modern cultures.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Slag
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 10:09 PM

As far as I'm concerned, being a child of the West, it is the heart and soul of America.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 10:24 PM

Great Post, Slag. Good divisions of eras. But I'm a bit confused on your California geography, but I may be misunderstanding what you're describing. You juxtapose Death Valley and and the Salt Lake Basin; actually Death Valley is about an hour's drive from Mt Whitney, which is part of the southern end of the Sierra Nevada Mountains, the 'magnificent wall of granite' as you aptly describe them. Of course, by wagon in the 19th century that was probably a good three day trek. While, the Sierras join the Cascades in the north, I don't believe they actually join the San Gabriels. BTW, I live in the San Gabriel Mts. about 15 miles nw of downtown Los Angeles (but at low elevation, relatively speaking.)
Thanks for the post.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Slag
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 03:56 AM

Thanks John! I cited Death Valley as epitomizing the barrier the deserts were to the settlers. Not very many tried to cross the Death Valley. Accurate information and knowledgeable guides were in scarce supply so some unlucky or misinformed folks got routed this way. A fellow named Walter Knotts' relative suffered this fate but still survived and Mr. knotts went on to establish a quite successful berry farm in Anaheim CA. My Dad picked berries for Mr, Knotts when he was a kid. The route below Death Valley, pretty much as Hwy 58 lies, was the route to both the Tehachapi Pass and the Cajon Pass.

The valleys and ridges that cover Nevada look like waves on the ocean when you observe them on a topo map. Very inhospitable and user unfriendly to wagons and such. I believe Ship Rock, New Mexico ( not sure about NM as it may be in AZ, at any rate, in proximity to Four Corners) was the point where the wagon trains went either north or south in the early Gold Rush days. The Santa Fe Trail became the accepted southern route and was the line for the Butterfield Stage Coach Lines (which eventually evolved into the Continental Bus Lines). In the north Hwy 80 represents the route to Reno and Donner and the quickest access to the Gold Strike and it was serviced by the Wells Fargo Stage Line.

I'm guessing, John, you live near Upland or Ontario. The Sierra Nevadas make a curve which the transverse Garlock Fault Line creates. On the map you see that the Great San Joaquin Valley, below Bakersfield is a crescent shape. The Grapevine (now the Ridge Route) has a sign on it which says that you are now entering the San Gabriel Nat'l Forest so, for me, it's hard to tell where one leaves off and the other begins. It has be quite a few years since I have been down in your neck of the woods so I will defer to you! I do know that Ft. Tejon overlooked the southern end of the Valley and (facing south) Mt. Pinos and certain other rather lofty peaks trail away to the Pacific Ocean to the right. To the left is Palmdale, Lancaster (humorous, eh, my English friends?) and Antelope Valley. San Gabriels are an East/West range, not very long, as mountain ranges go.

On the east side of Cajon Pass lies Big Bear and Arrowhead Lake (man-made). This, I consider to be part of the same range as San Gabriels, nomenclature aside. They finally dwindle into the desert around Desert Hot Springs, north of Palm Springs. There is an old hacienda style hotel (ala Santa Fe) here and a western town which was built to serve as a filming location (which it did) in this area but is now occupied by full time residents. I used to go poking around in some of the old goldmines on the backside of Big Bear in the 70's, a very dangerous pass time. It's some very beautiful country.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 04:23 AM

And so is folk music the heart and soul of what we learn from our cultural forbears. So why is the Western seen as relevant today, but folk music not?