Amnesia

Subject: Amnesia
From: GUEST,Acorn4
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 07:54 PM

Sorry if this is reviving an old thread, but I've only signed onto Mudcat three weeks ago -I've had a look at the database and can find things related but now specific on his topic, but if I'm wrong please redirect me.

FORGETTING THE WORDS - we've all done it - apparently Bob Dylan once forgot the words of "Blowing in the Wind".

There are three stages to a song. learning how it goes, learning to sing it and learning to perform it. Unfortunately many of us are reaching that stage of life when those "little grey cells" aren't what they were, and I've been in so many singarounds recently when things collapse at stage one. What is preferable -to have the words on the table "just in case" of a memory lapse or make a gallant attempt to memorise the song and risk that "out of memory" message during verse 5? I realise that in a singaround, it's not strictly a "performance" but more of a sharing of a song, but on no end of occasions I've got immersed in a particular rendition only to hear the performer interject "Oh, I've lost it!" - I can remember songs that I learned when I was 25 perfectly, but ones I learned last week, no chance . I actually write songs myself and forget the words. I've adopted a compromise and just have the words on the table as a "safety net", not looking at them unless the brain has one of those out of body experiences that lead to this amnesia.

I don't actually have strong views one way or the other on this but thought it might be an interesting starting point for a thread.

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 07:58 PM

Believe it or not, I understand. Something that's seeming to help is Omega 3-6-9 fatty acids. I forget where I left them, but when I find them I will take lots.

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: RangerSteve
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:10 PM

I long ago realized that I'm not young anymore and can forget words easily. Also, I perform regularly on a live radio show, a poor-mans version of the Grand Ole Opry, where I'd rather have the words in front of me than try to remember them. The radio audience is larger than the studio audience, and I have to play to them, they don't know that I'm cheating.

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:12 PM

A mate of mine reckons there are three types of performer - The Amateur practices till he has learned a song , the Semi pro practices till he can do it right , and the professional practices til he CANT do it wrong !

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:13 PM

Terry, in my younger days I knew the song by the time I'd finished writing it. Now, I have done about 35 or so in the past two years and they are a blur in my head. I have about ten memorized.

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: ClaireBear
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:13 PM

The very act of writing them down usually does the trick for me...especially if I do this by hand. I do, then, keep them nearby, but I hardly ever need to refer to them.

Sometimes when I'm not sure I'll remember -- especially if it's a song I've decided to sing on the spur of the moment -- I scribble just the first couple of words of each line on whatever I have handy, and clutch that as I'm singing. I find that once I've started a line, I'm much less likely to forget the rest.

The bonus is that this takes up so little space you might literally be able to put it on a couple of Post-Its and stick them to your guitar (or your beer glass, I suppose) with none the wiser.

Claire

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Grab
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:19 PM

Congrats Acorn, you've lucked into yet another religious debate. :-/

Executive summary... Some reckon that expecting people to learn the song by heart before they sing it is excessive. Some reckon that as a "just in case", they're acceptable, but you should know the song well enough for it to be an emergency measure. And some reckon that if you can't remember it every time, you shouldn't be doing it. It also depends on whether it's a pub singaround or a gig you've paid £50 for.

Me, it's always the first line of the verse that I lose - if I can get that then I've got the whole verse. So my songlist has just the first few words of each verse as a prompt, which saves space (30 songs per page) and still gives me the emergency reference source. If I'm being good, I check my memory *before* I sing.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Gurney
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:25 PM

Oddly, I've found that I don't really forget song words, but nowadays I have great difficulty learning new songs, both words and tune, and how to start it.

I used to have the words by the time I'd heard the song three times.

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:33 PM

I usually just forget lyrics to my own songs, and there aren't even that many of those, and it's usually the first line of the first verse. Maybe I need tattoos.

I think there are people who don't know the words to songs and don't care, people who try to learn, people who've practiced until they've learned the songs well, and people who've learned the song really well and forget lines, but it doesn't matter because at least 10 people in the audience know the songs.

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 09:34 PM

And I never knew all the words to anything anyway.

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 09:39 PM

A judicious ad-lib can sometimes save the day...

Only sometimes

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 09:58 PM

about having 'cheat sheets' for those informal sings when you might want to do a song you are not totally sure of:

It is *MY* feeling that, if I can close my eyes and not realize someone has a sheet, I don't worry about it! .....but if you can't even stumble thru it using notes, you have picked the wrong song. Nothing is more awkward than stopping in the middle of a line to peer at small print, or not knowing the tune well enough to make it pleasant & recognizable.

I know at my age, weird things happen with tired, overworked brain cells...(which means that sometimes I remember things I haven't sung in years!)

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 10:00 PM

Me too, Bill--remember things I haven't sung in years. However, when I break into "Happy Birthday to You" in the middle of "Wild Mountain Thyme" folks look at me funny.

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 10:15 PM

Bruce, not to worry, it's probably just the key change that gets to you.

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 10:15 PM

Good one, Sorcha.

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Amos
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:51 PM

I'd rather have lyrics in front of me than a frontal lyrectomy.


A

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 04:55 AM

An interesting experience at Warwick Festival a couple of years ago. A singer/guitarist got up to sing at a singaround and announced that she was going to sing "Gulf Coast Highway" by Nanci Griffiths - she suddenly found that she could not remember the first line of the song. There were five of us in the singaround that all do the song, but no one could come up with the first line.

Eventually, someone dragged it out of the memory banks.

the first line of "Gulf Coast Highway" by Naci Griffiths is of course:-

"Gulf Coast Highway"

Is there hope for any of us?

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 10:13 AM

I have found that the best way for me to commit songs to memory is to first commit the guitar chords and how I am going to play it to memory, presuming that you are a guitar player. Once I have the tune down, the words come much easier as I am on autopilot with the playing of the tune. Somthing about not having to multitask with regard to chord changes. Just seems to work for me. Anyone seen my guitar?

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 10:39 PM

A somewhat speculative opinion seems to prevail 'mongst those making pretense of scientific study of aging that, while not specific to the memory of lyrics, might be worth considering.

There is significant, and mostly fairly convincing, evidence that sleep is necessary to the "organizing of memory" whereby short term memories of things studied recently are "fixed" in longer term memory only if adequate sleep occurs withing a fairly brief period after the event one wishes to have retained.

There is ample evidence that significant sleep deprivation can cause failures of memory (sometimes along with more embarrassing behavioral quirks).

There is suggestive evidence that we older persons typically and frequently get less sleep than we did when we were younger, or get less "good quality" sleep during the time we do spend more or less "not awake."

Without any representation that it's certain to work, assuring that proper rest is part of the routine might help the memory and could, perhaps, make one at least better prepared to run and hide when memory fails in a compromising manner.

It would be interesting to hear the results of someone's trial at getting a good rest and observing carefully whether learning/memory is improved.

I'd do it, but I ain't got time to waste snoozin'.

John

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Peace
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 10:41 PM

Soon as I get this insomnia cleard up I'll look into that for you, John.

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Peace
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 10:45 PM

I remember posting to a thread like this recently.

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 04:48 AM

No why did I come into this thread for...

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 04:58 AM

But to get serious for a moment... it's all in the context. After all, the biggest performers will use autocues, so let's not get too religious about it. I am happy if someone uses a "safety net" of lyrics as reminder, memory-jogger etc. I am not happy however if the singer has his/her eyes glued to the text, to the detriment of the performance. And that holds true for me for a concert performance as much as for a singaround "sharing" of a song.

If you are unable to lift your eyes from the page, then perhaps you are not ready to share the song with us, so curb your enthusiasm and practice a little more. Tomorrow I will be singing two new songs at Herga, one of them written yesterday, and will be using safety net. But I will also practice today, so that the safety net is just that - and not a crutch.

As for learning lyrics for performance, I go through the following stages:
a) practice to get pitch and phrasing right
b) record it "roughly" and put on CD (I always have a WIP CD in the car with the newest songs)
c) sing along to the CD for a week or two as I drive to- and from work till I am word-perfect with that crutch
d) the I practice at night as I drift off to sleep: I imagine myself in a concert situation and start singing the song; for a number of nights I will get stuck, or drift off before finishing the song. But when I can go through the song 3 times in a row in that situation without a mistake, then I am ready to sing it in public.

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:05 AM

Do I come here often?

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:26 AM

Keep sex out of it

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:27 AM

Oh, sorry, must wash brain, it's getting filthy

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:04 AM

Your mind needs changing George!

G

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 07:01 AM

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 07:05 AM

Sorry, Guest was me. Not only did I forget my cookie but I forgot to say anything. Now I will have to read the thread posts again. Damn, I forget why I'm here!

Subject: RE: Amnesia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 08:16 PM

There are tricks that work - but no matter how well you know a song there's going to come a time when it just goes walkabout. It's a bit like when a cartoon character runs off a cliff - there they are running along in mid-air, and then they look down, and fall like a stone.

Having the safety net of the words is fair practice I think. And it can make it less likely that you forget the words, because that worry is removed. (Reading the words as you sing them, that's different, and it hardly ever seems to work well. It's like the difference between telling a joke and reading it off the page.)

Mind, forgetting does have its creative part to play. When you forget a line or part of a line, and improvise to fill it in, that's very much part of the process by which songs change, and often improve along the way. And it can happen unconsciously - I know that when I check back on a song I've written a long time ago I always find it's got lines different from the way I have come to sing it - and the change is always for the better.