BS: Are You Bitter???

Subject: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 06:59 PM

So, now they are all over Obama 'cause he said that people are bitter???

Well, yeah, they are... Okay, not everyone... Those making the big bucks like Hillary ain't bitter, that much is fir sure...

Hillary needs to spend a week workin' at a sweat-shop in western Pa and come back and jump Obama for this...

Beam me up...

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:44 PM

Mudcatters in general would not be bitter, I suspect. But unfortunately that's not the point. It was a real mistake for Obama to use that term referring to blue-collar people--whose votes he really needs in PA--and elsewhere.

It plays into the "elitist" charge so effective in 2004 against Kerry--consider how awkward he appeared as a "hunter". And talking about "them" in general, with the obvious implication that they are different from "us", serves to emphasize the distance between blue-collar people and Obama--not the thing any politician wants to do. Some blue-collar people are already falling for the spurious charge that Obama is unpatriotic, and this just adds to the gap between him and many voters.

I support Obama to the hilt--and have contributed financially to him--first time in my life I've contributed to a politician--up to now I had thought the idea was throwing money down the drain. And I still think he's the best thing to happen to the US in decades--for a host of reasons.

But I'm afraid I think he's misplayed this one badly. He seems to have fallen into the same trap Bill Clinton is tangled in--by thinking that by going on the offense you can rectify the situation.   Sometimes you really should just apologize--if he's done so, I haven't heard.

No dancing around the idea, claiming for instance that being "elitist" is a good thing, or harmless, will do any good. Sorry, it is in fact the political kiss of death in the US--maybe also elsewhere, but I don't know-- to be tagged as an "elitist".

The irony is that Hillary is far more an elitist than Obama ever was. Who did she represent as a lawyer?--Walmart and other corporate giants who have been driving jobs out of the US. Did she represent the little man? Not likely. Did Obama? Yes. And now she plans to take over the White House with the #1 lobbyist in the world--does anybody really think Bill was paid all those millions because he gave good speeches?

Obama should fight back by pointing this out--and branding Team Clinton as elitists.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:57 PM

Well, yes, sometimes, over certain things. Like the continuance of slavery and hunger in a world where all could be fed and both corporate and individual greed and....

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:57 PM

In fact, the best approach Obama could take now is to hammer away at the idea that with Hillary in the White House, the US will be for sale to the highest bidder--with the #1 lobbyist in the world in the catbird seat. There is no way that Bill will not have influence on a President Hillary Clinton.

And if this is perceived as negative campaigning against a fellow Democrat, he can give the same answer her side gives to that criticism--he is only bringing up the same issues she would have to face in the fall if she were--by some ghastly mistake--the Democratic nominee.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Slag
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 09:35 PM

What Obama's moment of candor did was a political disaster! He told the truth! -about himself and his real viewpoint!

Come on now. The way they have the election laws and "free speech" rigged only the very wealthy from either party can run for high office. And as F. Scott Fitzgerald noted "The rich are not like you or me." They are all out of touch with the common folk. They have to hire people to tell them what we think and why we think what we do. And the consultants have to go out and take a poll using carefully designed questions which will provide them with the answers they want to hear. Obama, as Clinton also, strayed from the script. Alas, the cloak cannot hide all. Cover your eyes children. That was not meant to be seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:07 PM

"Elitist", is a Republican code word which means "Don't vote for anyone who seems to be smarter than you because all we have to offer you is dummies like Bush and Reagan."

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:08 PM

Yes, I'm 'bitter' about the directions my country has taken recently...how far back that actually goes, I really don't know. But bitter, yes....


The wage gap is appalling. The gender opportunity gap is appalling. The wage/gender gap is appalling. The Religious Right is appalling. The mandated Federal minimum wage is a disgrace.

I could go on...government in general, religion taking over government, International Policies, the 'freedoms' to be allowed to do the 'wrong/unethical' things...but I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here.

Where I live, in solid Repbublican Conservative Wyoming, it does NO good to protest much of anything. Hell, our State Elected Representative has missed at least 50% of the votes since she's been in office. (Barbara Cubin if you are interested) and 'we' kept electing her over and over. She has finally decided not to stand for re-election. Let's just hope what we do elect in her stead isn't worse. It very well could be. This is Cheney Home Territory, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:20 PM

Yeah, you can stick me in the 'bitter' column if you're counting.

One thing I'm starting to get embittered about is the "professional" journalists who keep moronically grabbing up the bait Hillary drops in the water every coupla weeks to stir up the soup and try to make Obama look bad. These remarks he made are perfectly reasonable in context and something she easily would say herself, and yet they have been repeated and debated ad nauseum for days now on all networks as if they contain horrible content, and as if the world turned on them.

Keep at it Hillary, and keep it up, Clinton News Networks. You'll tarnish the golden boy just enough to let McCain slip in (with a little help from Diebold). What an accomplishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:25 PM

No, but only because I make a super human effort to not be bitter. Otherwise, I'm sure I would be very bitter about the crimes against humanity that have been perpetrated by our government and politicians against people all over the world, and also about the crimes against the voters of the US by the same people.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:35 PM

Barack Obama in Steelton, PA

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NIxmi3e2Vmo


Added: April 13, 2008
"Barack addresses the United Steelworkers Union in Steelton, regarding Hillary Clinton's recent disingenuous remarks about him".

**

Senator Obama spoke eloquently about "bitter-gate". In portions of his remarks, Obama used the pratory practices of repetition and asking for responses from his audience that are characteristics of traditions of African American oratory.

Among the key quotes from this speech:
Re: McCain- "Do you think I'm out of touch or do you think he's out of touch.

Re: Hillary Clinton. "She knows better. Shame on her. Shame on her. She's knows better." "Shame on you Hillary Clinton! It sounds like there's some politics being played."

I have no doubt that this speech will be shown and talked about during the run up to the Pennsylvania primary on April 22nd, and long after that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:36 PM

I am readily able to feel bitter about the criminality which has so degraded the status of the country and its economy.

And I am relatively comfortable.

For those who are not, I think the feeling would come even more easily.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:49 PM

Excellent video Azizi. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:02 PM

I'm bitter and resigned about many global, and national issues and conditions. But I'm not bitter about what has occurred in my personal life, though much of my life hasn't been sweetness and light.

For the most part, my faith that I am not alone and my belief that "the Creator has a master plan" for me as well as for the world sustains me. Thanks to that, and thanks to change agents for the good like Senator Obama, inspite of the bitterness and resignation that I feel sometimes more than other times, I dare to hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:09 PM

I gotta buy some more bullets.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:43 PM

Elitists are people who pull the kind of crap that Hillary and McCain are pulling on this subject because they think the rest of us are too stupid to see through it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:47 PM

Maybe I'll buy a LOT of bullets.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:01 AM

It appears someone has already made reference to my interpretation of these events:

"Ms Clinton is too elitist to know how bitter many people are, or that they know it."

Of course Obama left a lot of things off the list of things to be bitter about, but he was addressing a particular campaign difficulty where the long list would have hindered getting his point out.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:10 AM

"Of course Obama left a lot of things off the list..."
Yup! He forgot to mention the three legged dog, tied to the trailer and the two guys, playing banjo & guitar down at the gas station.
His "Deliverance" view of small town America and this constant connection between church & anger should by now, be giving some of you pause for reconsideration.
What would you think if another candidate offered a similarly insulting view of America's inner cities?
Wouldn't those remarks be considered "Racist"?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:14 AM

It might give some of us pause if we didn't know that the alternatives (Ms Clinton and Mr McCain) are far more elitist than Obama. Did you see the video of Hillary telling the joke about Mahatma Gandhi working in a gas station in St Louis that JtS posted?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:22 AM

No but I didn't think that was the topic.

I've said before that Obama will sink his own ship but kids today...... they won't believe ya.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:42 AM

Well, if we're going to stay on topic, I guess we'd better get back to Bobert's original point about the hypocrisy of Hillary's criticism of Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:49 AM

Frankly I didn't see anything particularly racist about the remarks when I actually looked them up and read them.

He stated, quite factually, that many people latch onto a particular thing that bothers them, and fail to take a broader perspective of all of what the nation needs. His comments made reference to some concerns that hold particular appeal to persons of a variety of ethnic, religious, and political views that unfortunately make it difficult to get any broader message across to them.

Frankly, the criticism by Hilarity makes HER look more than a little "elitist," and in fact plays directly on the "bitterness" - as Obama used the term - of one-issue voters where she happens to need votes now (I think that's commonly called "pandering" or, more colloquially, "sucking up.")

John

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:54 AM

Painting inteelegent people who just might happen to be smarter than you are "elitists" goes back to Bush I and he passed it down to his kids who have learned it well and now Hillary has picked up on it as well...

The problem with this strategy, as I see it, is that it panders to those who with the least education at the expense of those who have pushed for higher learning... And this problem has created a ripple effect in our governemtn's policies which for the last 7 years have not been very "intellegent"... Our tax dollars are being spent for "flat earth" scientists, for old school military leader (think Runsfeld, Wolfowitz and Pearle here), for EPA administrators who have their jobs not because that know anything about the EPA but because they are anti-abortion and gave money to Bush's campaign...

Yes, whereever we look we see the effects of putting down smart people...

And now Hillary is on the "Let-The-Dummies-Run-The-Country" bandwagon???

(But, Bobert, that sounds elitist...)

So??? Sue me an' while yer at it...

...beam me up, Scotty, there's no intellegent life forms left down here...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:57 AM

Ah, jeez, John- what do you want to go and interject facts into the discussion for?

What fun is it if you actually read and undrstand what the man said?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Midchuck
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 08:34 AM

Maybe I'll buy a LOT of bullets.

Just bullets? What good are they without cases and primers and propellant powder? Or do you shoot muzzle-loaders?

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 09:26 AM

Yes, I do, Midchuck. I have two .50 calibers downstairs in the lockup and I'm making a .54 caliber flintlock.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Midchuck
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 10:12 AM

O. K., that's all right, then.

(I have some pet grumbles in word usage:

"Bullets" used to mean "Cartridges."

"Data" used as a singular.

"Network" used as a verb, other than in computer applications.

I realize I can't win on any of these points, but I'll go down fighting.)

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 10:16 AM

nice of you to ask, mines a large scotch.....

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 10:18 AM

When did "bitter" become an insult? Is "angry" also seen as similarly insulting?

"Don't worry - be happy"...

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 10:23 AM

As usual, the effort to make a straw man demon out of some part of a speech depends on falsifying meaning by renmoving parts of it and altering context. Same stupid balck-PR stunt they pulled on Wright. I think it says more about the manipulator than about the target.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 10:24 AM

If I lived in Pennsylvania, I'd be bitter, too. Come to think of it, I used to live in Pennsylvania. Now I live in New Mexico and I'm not bitter any more...sweet, I am.

Subject: to be overly obvious...
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 11:31 AM

All of the most beneficial as well as dangerous alkaloyd drugs and poisons for animals such as humans, are bitter.

Bitter is a warning to our taste senses. Bitter is a warning to our social senses.

So when someone is attacked for being bitter, the attacker knows full well what they are doing.


"HE IS POISON !!!


We have re examined racism as of late as well as accusations of religious intolerence.

Who knows, the way things are going downhill fast in this population where 68% of the people believe in Satan and even more believe in angels, we may end up re examining women's practice of witchcraft.
*********************************************************
my cartoon would be Hillary as the Oz witch of the north saying "he's bitter poison"   and Obama saying "Which?"

while the old McCain Wizard of Oz floats away in the presidential balloon.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:07 PM

When it comes to beer I prefer bitter to mild.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:17 PM

Those who find the Democrat Party appealing do generally fall into the condescending mindset of believing that they know what's good for the little guy. Some Democrats are more skilled at avoiding pointing out that they think less of you little guys. Others make it more obvious. Obama just bared his condescending soul a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:25 PM

I think that those in charge of EVERY political party are condescending and elitist. Remember "The American people are like children"?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:31 PM

"68% of the people believe in Satan... "
I that's true then at least 68% of people believe in God.
Something wrong with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:35 PM

There's nobody in the world who is more elitist than the Bush family. And the McCain family are fairly elitist themselves. A wealthy socialite wife and a scion of navy admirals and captains. And they do condescend to tell the little guy what's best for us all the time. It's not a Democrat or Republican thing. It's a "ruling elite" thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:37 PM

But is that really any different from the people who use the Republican party to preserve their own advantages? Was the lady who famously said "Only little people pay taxes" a hardline Democrat? And undoubtedly what she said there was essentially true, in both our countries.

And once again, whether the way Obama put it was wise campaign talk or not, does anyone actually think it wasn't essentially true?

The idea that poor people in the Rust Belt who've been screwed over by the system aren't liable to feel pretty despondent about it is a bit like the old idea that down on the plantations in the South it was all happy smiling black folk. And people suggesting they weren't were just outside troublemakers sneering at them.

Come to think of it, "elitist" in this kind of context isn't at all far removed from "uppity"...

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:40 PM

Oh I get it.
It's another "Let's make excuses for Obama" thread.
Fair enough.
Bye!

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:47 PM

Whoppee! I really need you guys to let me know that I have fallen into the condescending mindset.

Ya know thats probably true.

As they say;
you can't ever go wrong by grossly underestimating the high intelligence of any given group.

(or should I have said "misunderestimate" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:51 PM

The truth being the most dangerous thing for a politician to say, is not liekly to be told even by Obama.

The truth is that the Chrsitian right were duped by the holy Bush Rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:59 PM

Perhaps a little musical interlude is in order...

Is you 'appy? You gotta be 'appy.
You got to be one hundred percent... I suppose!
Is you 'appy? You gotta be 'appy.
You got to be one hundred percent... I sup-pose!

What are ya lookin' peevish for?
Pick your jaw up off the floor.
Was you smacked with a two by four?
Well, you're not broke out in sores.
You ain't got no disease.
Don't go lookin' for sympathy,
'Cause I knows if you was me,
You'd be 'appy.

And I knows how 'ard it's got,
And yer guts is gone to rot,
And yer life is all upsot,
And you're flashin' cold and hot.
Suck back your nasal drip,
Stiffen up your lower lip;
You're not going to be missed,
So 'tis just as well to be 'appy.

Is you 'appy? You gotta be 'appy.
You got to be one hundred percent... I suppose!
Is you 'appy? You gotta be 'appy.
You got to be one hundred percent... I sup-pose!

I know'd a feller once,
He was 'ere for several months;
He got along with our bunch,
We know'd he was out to lunch.
No one liked him real good,
Well, his mudder never could;
But, while he was stunned for good...
He was 'appy.

And then there's ugly Gord,
Last year he breaks out in warts;
Looks like the livin' corpse,
Girls rather kiss his arse.
Stinks like the rotten fish,
Tastes like the maggotty flesh;
We tolerates him I guess,
'Cause 'tis just as well to be 'appy.

Is you 'appy? You gotta be 'appy.
You got to be one hundred percent... I suppose!
Is you 'appy? You gotta be 'appy.
You got to be one hundred percent... I sup-pose!

One certain feller here,
With nuttin' between his ears;
One night he got on the beer,
Stripped off till he was bare.
Went paradin' around the town,
Till the cops tracked him down;
He's in the mental now...
But he's 'appy.

Listen here... Take my advice,
Make sure you got no lice;
Get yerself all smellin' nice,
Try to straighten out yer eyes.
Haul yer boots up over yer pants,
Take yer partner out to dance;
'Cause now you got the chance,
And 'tis just as well to be 'appy.

Is you 'appy? You gotta be 'appy.
You got to be one hundred percent... I suppose!
Is you 'appy? You gotta be 'appy.
You got to be one hundred percent... I sup-pose!

How's ya boots??... Mind now!... Copesetic!

--Kevin Blackmore of Buddy Wasisname And The Other Fellers (Salt Beef Junkie, 1995; Greatest Misses, 1999; I'm Looney, 2002)

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:04 PM

"nyahh nayh nyah nyah nyahh,
fair enough,
Bye"


do I smell a flamer? My goodness I thought they all went missing or went to work for KBR.

Is it bitter to want to say 'I told you so' but keep it to myself?

Is it bitter to speak of the bitter hateful divides in our locale, nation and the world?

Is it bitter to be hosed by right wing shock jock radio type personalities.

No, one must choose to be bitter. One can merely listen to the tone of those who scream "Look he is Bitter!" to know who is being bitter.

At the risk of being bitterly interpreted as being a racist:
It will always be a matter of the Kettle calling the Skillet black.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:52 PM

I want to be happy
But I won't be happy
Till I make you happy too.
Life's really worth living
When you are mirth giving
Why can't I give some to you?
When skies are gray
And you say you are blue
I'll send the sun smiling through
I wanna be happy
But I won't be happy
Till I make you happy too.

(From No No Nanette, 1925 - and here's a band playing it - BS threads are all the better for a bit of music.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:58 PM

Put a little love in your life
Look at the stars not at my feet.
Always look o the bright side of life
and walk on the sunny side of the street

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:00 PM

Grey skies are gonna clear up
put on a happy face






eww
now I'm really bitter

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:12 PM

And while we're with the music, here's a song to match the thread - "But I'm not bitter"

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:17 PM

Here is one for the Junior Senator from New York

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:14 PM

Most people are bitter about certain things, but whether they'll admit to it or not is another matter. (I think almost everyone nowadays is bitter about the very obvious disconnect between governmental power and the genuine concerns and needs of the public...and they have a right to be.)

As for the absolutely ridiculous, farcical, and apparently endless media-driven melodrama that has fucked the present American election campaign beyond recognition, I've given up on it frankly. I just can't be bothered with any of it anymore.

I didn't even know Obama was having this latest problem until I opened this thread.

And what do I think about it? (GREAT BIG SHRUG)

I'd rather find something else altogether to think about, I guess.

So...bye, bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:24 PM

Now don't go off all mad, LH... Think of it as entertainment... You know, like a big reality show... "Cause that's really what it is, ain't it???

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:25 PM

Little Hawk Come back, you are our only hope.

Smile while your heart is breaking
smile while your cake is baking...

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:47 PM

seems to me that what Obama said shows he is concerned and thinking about the 'common folks', whether he chose exactly the right words or not.

Y'all find me a politician who is perfect and never says anything to criticize.
They'll have to find more than THAT remark wrong with Obama to make me vote for McCain...or even Clinton, right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:48 PM

Yeah, Bobert, it is like a big "Reality" show, like you say. Sad. Sad. Very sad. Downright tragic. It's like People magazine and the Tinseltown Tattler joining together to set up the future of the nation.

What I fear is that the American people will get the government they deserve (again?). Or worse yet, they may get something even considerably more irresponsible and dangerous than the government they deserve.

No, seriously, I don't even want to think about it any more. It just messes up my mind and makes me feel hopeless.

You see, the very political process itself, in the way it is presently set up in the USA, is so totally rotten and compromised that I don't see how it can redeem itself. I really don't. I don't see how any decent, normal person could go through a presidential election campaign (as a candidate, for example) without being deeply disillusioned and personally damaged by the whole thing. To put a normal person in that position would be like throwing them in a pit of starving wolves, metaphorically speaking.

If Obama is a good and decent and honest man, his life is going to be ruined by this. If he's not, if he's just another typical ruthless powerbroker of the governing $ySStem, then his life is already ruined.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: skipy
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:15 PM

I'm bitter, cider, lager, wine, whatever I can find really! Soon be minesweeping at Chippenham fest!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Slag
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:45 PM

phllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllt

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 08:30 PM

For the first time I feel some real resonance for Obama - he said something so obviously true in every detail.

And suddenly the US mass media don't like it.


This exemplifies so well everything that is wrong with politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 08:52 PM

Exactly. Having now had a careful look at what he said....he said the straight honest TRUTH...and that is what you must never do in that incredibly corrupt and hypocritical situation that is modern politics and modern media in the USA.

It's disgusting to see him being attacked for it by people like Clinton and McCain, who really couldn't give a shit about what he said, truthfully, except that they see a momentary chance to do him some damage over it. I despair of a society that has grown so hypocritical and so unthinking as to attack a man for saying a plain truth like what Obama said in the context he said it in here.

There are a lot of people out there who clearly cannot face reality...give them predigested oatmeal instead...give them precooked patriotic cliche slogans that mean absolutely nothing...keep them asleep and happy.

It will be a miracle if anyone who has anything genuinely thoughtful and insightful to say about America wins this coming election.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 09:06 PM

Now don't be like that, LH... Have a little hope, even if ya' don't have faith...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: mg
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 09:45 PM

There are a lot of true things we could all be saying but it could stir up even more hornets' nests. And I agree about the Deliverance thing...he somehow tapped into that..and has elections in some of those hilly states...I think I know what he meant..I think he forgot what hat he was wearing and slipped into analytical vs. political mode...but I think it was not a good thing to say...I think people in some of those depressed areas are hard hit for sure..but still have their pride.. but this was tapping into some negative stereotypes and at least in retrospect he should have seen it...I still don't think he gets it. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 10:37 PM

No question, however, which one represented people on the lower end of the economic scale, like blue-collar people, unions, and voting rights cases--and which one, as a member-- for decades-- of the Rose law firm, one of the most prominent firms in Arkansas, represented corporate clients.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 11:52 PM

read quickly before I get deleted for forgetting to put my name in the box
"To judge from Obama's several statements on the subject, he sincerely believes that working-class whites, lacking the self-awareness to recognize the actual economic origins of their distress, seek relief from their pain by praying in church, slaughtering deer, and making illegal immigrants and imports from foreign countries scapegoats for ills that have nothing to do with immigration or trade. They may not be racists, they may even be sympathetic victims, but they are too irrational to understand their genuine problems and their true interests, which are chiefly economic, a fact that university-educated progressives in big cities and college towns can readily perceive."

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/04/15/elitism/index2.html

"The attempt by eminent figures on the left to belittle traditional values by reducing them to personal pathology dates back at least to 1950, when the German Marxist émigré Theodore Adorno, in "The Authoritarian Personality," attempted to explain fascism (and by implication American McCarthyism) in terms of repressed individuals who take out their psychic frustrations on minorities. Similarly, the sociologist Seymour Martin Lipset explained the Goldwater-Reagan conservative movement as the product of "status anxiety" on the part of socially insecure Americans. This line of thinking, inspired by absurd comparisons between Weimar Germany and post-1945 America and between libertarian conservatism and Hitlerian totalitarianism, has been discredited by scholars like Lisa McGirr, who shows in her 2001 book, "Suburban Warriors: The Origins of the New American Right," that Goldwater-Reagan activists tended to be successful, educated people for whom conservative ideology was not a mask for something else but a coherent belief system. Nevertheless, the cliché that working-class and even middle-class social traditionalists, * * -> when they are not simply ignorant, "low information" hicks, are maladjusted misfits whose political views are nothing more than feeble gestures of misdirected rage, persists as an article of faith among many progressives, who then wonder why the Democrats cannot win over more of the voters they despise. <- * * "

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:29 AM

Has anyone got a link to a video of Obama saying the things he's being criticized for? I'd like to hear it for myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:01 AM

If "Goldwater-Reaganism" could ever be described as a coherent belief system, it would explain the rich voting to get richer. It doesn't explain the poor voting to get poorer.

Sometimes it is a duty to ban bear-baiting or dog-fighting, however much some enjoy those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:02 AM

I saw the relevant links at msn.com but I don't know if theyare still easy to find there.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:30 AM



No video, but here is an audio tape of the meeting One sentence in a 50 minute long tape.

Here's a YouTube clip juxtaposing Clinton's take on Obama's words, and Obama fleshing them out in a later speech. People can judge for themselves which comes over as having the more patronising attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:56 AM

Well, CarolC, I heard them and, IMO, the words could have been spoken by Hillary herself... I mean, for gosh sakes, these words were not imflamatory... They were an accurate observation of the dispare that lots of fol;ks feel... I live in one of the poorest counties in Virginia and what Obama observed is what I hear and see in lots of the folks who live here...

I understand the church and the guns thing... These are institutions and traditions that give many people some level of comfort even if it boils doen to "misery loves company"... I see the ol' people hang out at the Hawksbill Diner in the morning ordering nothin' but a $1 cup of coffee... I see the church parking lot full of older model cars... I hear gunshots just about every day... These people aren't middle class... They are either poor or borderline poor...

What Obama siad is completely accurate... I believe that Clinton took a page out of Karl Rove's play book here in attacking Obama's strength because she is a desperate woman who can't believe that she and Bill aren't entitled to the presidency...

Like I said, these words could have come out of her mouth but they didn't... And had they come out of her mouth this would be a non-issue...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:35 AM

If the use of the word "bitter" is all they can pin on Obama, he's home and dry. What a storm in a teacup. Sounds to me like the journos are whipping up a frenzy all of their own making.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: kendall
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:40 AM

Guest, if you forget to post your name, you can always come in and say, "That was me"

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:03 AM

This issue boils down to a momentary short circuit in Senator Obama's politic-speak wiring. He forgot to phrase his comments in a way that makes it apparent he's talking to those who do feel bitter, not those of us who don't. It would be a non-issue if he had said something like "I understand that some of you may feel bitter..." instead of phrasing it in the all-inclusive "You are bitter..." fashion that he did. The reason he's being called elitist and condescending is that his word choice has made it appear that he thinks he knows more about how people feel than they themselves do.

Personally, I feel a wee bit offended at being told I'm bitter when, in fact, I'm merely resigned. If he had including a "some" or a "may" I would have no need for offense because he would have left me some room to not be the person he was addressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:02 PM

Oh, for pete's sake. I should have asked that question a lot sooner. What a bunch of knuckleheads the Hillary and McCain people are. Here's his words in a larger context...

So, it depends on where you are, but I think it's fair to say that the places where we are going to have to do the most work are the places where people feel most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre...I think they're misunderstanding why the demographics in our, in this contest have broken out as they are. Because everybody just ascribes it to 'white working-class don't wanna work -- don't wanna vote for the black guy.' That's...there were intimations of that in an article in the Sunday New York Times today - kind of implies that it's sort of a race thing.


Here's how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long, and they feel so betrayed by government, and when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn't buy it. And when it's delivered by -- it's true that when it's delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama (laugher), then that adds another layer of skepticism (laughter).

But -- so the questions you're most likely to get about me, 'Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What's the concrete thing?' What they wanna hear is -- so, we'll give you talking points about what we're proposing -- close tax loopholes, roll back, you know, the tax cuts for the top 1 percent. Obama's gonna give tax breaks to middle-class folks and we're gonna provide health care for every American. So we'll go down a series of talking points.

But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you'll find is, is that people of every background -- there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you'll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I'd be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you're doing what you're doing.

He's right, and there's absolutely nothing elitist about what he said. What's elitist is when people like Hillary and McCain try to get people to vote against their own best interests by telling people lies about what Obama is saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:29 PM

You may have to call him President Knucklehead, self-annointed defender of the underdog.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:02 PM

Well, self annointed or not, he is the only candidate who worked as a community organizer in the streets of a major ciry... I have done just that and there is no way that one can come from that experience as an elitust... Absolutely no way... Community organizing is down and dirty, it's gettin' into peoples lives and knowing their circumstances... One would have to be a machine to not be moved by the horrors of the lives of our poor...

With that said, I think the "liberal media" is dead!!! Absolutley dead... Deader than a box of creek rocks.. Deader than the deadest... Deader than Clinton surplus's and that's purdy danged dead...

(Why would you say that, Boberdz???)

Well, yesterday both McCain and Obama were invited to speak and answer questions by the Associated Press...

McCain spoke first and the reporters presented him with a box of doughnuts. everyone had a jolly old time and McCain firlded one circle-jerk powder question after another and everyone had a good little circle-jerk hardee-har-har time...

Then Obama spoke an was not only hit with one wild pitch hardball questaion after another but also was asked by AP Chairman Dean Singleton "whether he would send more troops to Afganistan where 'Obama bin Laden is still at large?'"

(?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????)

And everyone had a good laugh... The picture in the Post this morning is as disgusting a picture that I can rememver of a bunch of paunchy white reporters having a good ol' boy hardee-har-har at Obama's expense...

As far as I am concerned Singleton is a jerk... He might as well have just come out and called Obama a "nigger"...

Absolutely disgusting... So all you folks who still believe in this "liberal media", the koolaid is right down the halll to the "right"...

And, for the record, I am bitter that there seems to be a Clinton/McCain/Media conspiracy to short sheet and then pile on Obama...

Disgusting...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:04 PM

I listened to a recording of the remarks in question, and had no quarrel with them. They don't necessarily apply to everybody in the target community he was talking about, but they sure do apply to a lot of people, including me. They were delivered in a low-key sort of delivery, not rabble-rousing, not high-flown oratory. Pretty reasonable, even if one didn't take the position he was describing.

And I say that as one who somewhat prefers Hillary.

I was flabbergasted when I then heard that both McCain and Hillary have attempted to use the remarks as a club to beat him with.

I think he ought to throw it back in their teeth, and make it a strong part of his general presentation.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:48 PM

I agree, Unc... Hey, fight fire with fire...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:53 PM

It is difficult to rise above the bickering AND reply to such things. I think, I hope, he is striking the right balance.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:25 PM

I can see where the offense might be here. After reading them in full context from CarolC's post.

Some call me a liberal although I tend to think of myself as middle of the road. I'm cynical and bitter about the gov't and the situation I find myself in. A short while ago I found myself looking for a job in a delfated market. It was extremely depressing and distressing to have marketable job skills that aren't wanted by the current administration, or have been outsourced to other countries. In this area if you took 4 jobs at minimum wage (which is what almost everyone is offering) you still wouldn't be able to make ends meet according to local economists. Having been a law abiding citizen all my life I find myself in the position of resenting someone who has illegally come into the country or illegally overstayed their visa. Despite denials, it is true that having a handy supply of illegal immigrants keeps the wages for jobs low. (Boss: Don't like the working conditions? Tough! I've got plenty of prospective workers who won't complain (because I'll report 'em!)). At the job I finally found we had a case of ongoing sexual harrasment because a female worker who should have fought back was "illegal" and the male threatened to report her to the INS. So the situation is just as bad for the illegal immigrants as it is for anyone else.

I however do not "cling" to guns or religion, both of which are things I was brought up with or in and I am not xenophobic. It does make him sound like an elitist that he describes the beliefs and sentiments of a good deal of people in such simplistic terms.

To balance it though, I know that his chief republican opponent pretty much believes that everything in America can be fixed by letting the rich folks keep all their money and run the country. If that's not elitist I don't know what is!

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:48 PM

Cling was a poor choice of words. What I think that he was talking about was their tendency to vote against their own interests when given the choice to.

The Republicans offer them defense of their "gun rights" defense of their positions on gay marriage and abortion they offer to build fences at the borders. They also pass the tax burden of the wealthy and of corporations to the children of these small town people.

But when a black man named Barack Obama offers them hope. They don't buy it. they cling to those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:07 PM

But Jack,

I thought Religion offered them hope too?

I'm not against Obama, or hope for that matter. But I think the people and places he's talking about have been hoping for a hell of a long time. Instead of talking about why they won't vote for him, or the democrats, maybe he should be giving specifics about what he is going to do differently that will specifically help them.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:12 PM

Bingo jts!! Hundreds(?) of pages of talking head crap I've read and you just provided the correct, workable interpretation, which I haven't seen anywhere else.

(But then religion was the second poorly chosen word.)

( . . . maybe he can't use your phrasing because it (the second sentence, second paragraph) would be translated in the press as "higher taxes." or maybe he wasn't going to highlight that aspect in Marin County.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:29 PM

"it is true that having a handy supply of illegal immigrants keeps the wages for jobs low. That's a shorthand way of putting it tat we keep hearing in England too - except that it gets applied to legal migrants from places like Poland as well.

But the truth is it's never the migrants who keep the wages down, it's the employers who choose to pay those low wages, and take advantage of the presence of workers who are prepared to take the jobs at that rate. And the authorities who let those employers get away with it, even when the rate is lower than the statutory minimum wage. "I have to pay low wages because there are people who will accept them" is like saying "I have to drive at 100 miles an hour because my car will go that fast".

That was thread drift - back to the thread topic.

......................

If he'd said "hold on to" or "turn to" it would have meant essentially the same thing but it probably wouldn't have been open to being used in the same way. Language is curious. Perhaps it's because "cling" has gentler associations, and that's a no-no.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:36 PM

and then with "antipathy to people who aren't like them" he was spiralling into a sentence he wish he had never started and couldn't control. But, yes, I do believe his original intent was as you stated.



(My kids would say "he had a brain fart." Which happens. "I clearly remeber running from sniper fire" is "lying" or "hallucinatory.")

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:38 PM

Oh come on. He was panhandling high rollers in San Fran, VERY off the record, and never thought his remarks would come out. Must have been the kitchen help, catching him on their cell phone.

He IS a Harvard snob, and sounded exactly like one when begging for change to "his people".

One day he is giving white Americans a stern "race" lecture when his in your face minister gets caught spankin' whitey in a video.

Now that everybody bought that shit, we're all supposed to believe his latest claims that his big city dysfunctional black nationalist religion is somehow superior to small town dysfunctional white nationalist religion? Why is that, exactly. HIS co-religionists are bitter too, but you don't see him talkin' about his homeys like he does the honkies, now do you?

Harumph.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:41 PM

Swift Goaders for Americans of Faith will soon release their wire tap of Barak saying that bin Laden said something he agreed with

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:02 PM

Oh please, the guy is chewing his foot off, but everyone is SO afraid they will be labeled racist if they admit they don't like him, even Tavis Smiley quit his show because of the grief, hate mail and death threats he was getting.

I wouldn't care if God or Bruce Springsteen was running for the Democratic nomination. The system is corrupt, the party is corrupt, and the candidate finalists are REALLY corrupt.

If they weren't, they wouldn't be the finalists.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:15 PM

Well, well , well...

Our resident Obama hater... Fantasma??? Well, okay....

Tell ya' what, Fant-sie, you go out and spenf several years as community organizer and then come back an' tell us just what a "snob" Obama is...

You live in Hatesburg and that'a all you know...

Go vote for yer hero, McCain...

That's the real deal here...

Don't bore me with yer pseudo positions... We've heard them as if that makes "you so classless and free, yer all fu*kin' peasants as s I can see...

But if it makes you fell all that ***elite*** then keep on wioth yer Obama bashing...

Ho hum...

A rose by any other name is still a rose...

An Obama-hater by any other name is still an Obama hater...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:39 PM

Bobert, considering how condescending and phony you are with your hillbilly bullshit persona, I'm not surprised when Obama condescends in the same way, you are right on board.

Keep drinkin' the koolaid, I'm sure everything in America will be JUST FINE on Inauguration morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:53 PM

Instead of talking about why they won't vote for him, or the democrats, maybe he should be giving specifics about what he is going to do differently that will specifically help them.

That's exactly what he was doing. He was talking to people about how they could approach these kinds of questions when talking to voters they are likely to encounter in some areas. He was telling them what the people in those areas tend to do in their voting practices, and he was telling them the kinds of things he would do differently to specifically help those voters so that they might see that he is someone in the government who has their best interests at heart. That was the whole point of the talk he was giving.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:54 PM

When it comes to Koolaid, you wrote the book...

You are a 24K phoney, GUEST, guest...

You spew yer venom like a "true beliver"... Of course, you know exactly what "true believer" is since you are so "classless and free"...

You, and others like you, make me sick...

Yeah, you hide behind yer "classless and free" bullsh*t and when you are called on yer phoney baloney you turn on the caller...

I am transparent here... You are not... I have spent the last5 25 years of my life living in mountain hollers... Where I live would scare the crap outta you so get off yer friggin' high horse fir just one friggin' minute...

I am verifiable... You are not... As far as I know you might be some 13 year old girl??? Get a real life and until you do so yer endless hate-filled attacks on Obama, ot any of the folks who support him, are like yesterday's trash...

Square business!!!

We ain't takin' no more od yer sh*t!!!

Get a life!!!

V~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:54 PM

Keith O and Rachel Maddow say it better than I did.

Obama speech to the AP

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:55 PM

Why, Fantasma!! You're using the same tone and expressions as Gigi and Janet Ryan!! Must be one of those viral memes you hear about.

Keep drinking lots of wawa and vitamins.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:59 PM

"it is true that having a handy supply of illegal immigrants keeps the wages for jobs low." That's a shorthand way of putting it tat we keep hearing in England too - except that it gets applied to legal migrants from places like Poland as well.

There is a very important difference between these two things. The whole point is that by making it as difficult as possible to become legal residents (as our government is presently doing), we ensure a permanent population of illegal immigrants. And when that happens, those illegal immigrants will keep the wages low because they will work for a lot less than people whose status in this country is not in question. That's the one of the reasons we have so many illegal immigrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:00 AM

Another irony of this whole business is that Hillary, as always, has overplayed her hand. Not being content with just letting Obama's words-- (that is, of course the specially selected ones which put him in the worst light)-- stand, she feels she has to establish that she, in contrast to Obama, is the hunter's friend. So she tells the charming story of being taught to shoot by her father. And that she actually shot a duck once upon a time. When has she last used a gun? That's "not relevant", she says.

No doubt about it, she's the NRA's darling. Or maybe not.

In fact she gave Obama the opportunity to point out the subtle differences between Hillary and Annie Oakley.

The Clintons are born storytellers. But it doesn't always help them.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:13 AM

"cling to religion" was particularly unfortunate. Hell, he does that himself. And the remarks in San Francisco--if carefully selected--do give his opponents the opening to brand him "elitist". But it should be obvious to anybody who reads and thinks that he is far from elitist. And after all, we've been assured by Hillary more than once that words mean nothing. Evidently they mean nothing unless it's an opponent's gaffe.

She's certainly right that actions count a lot more. She represented corporate clients for decades. Coming straight out of Harvard Law, he chose to represent voting rights cases, unions, and in general people on the bottom of the economic pile.

That says all we need to know on the elitism charge, and who sticks up for the little guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:24 AM

Bobert, I was just listening to Obama in that AP thing you were complaining about. First of all, I feel very sorry for Dean Singleton. I really don't think he did that on purpose. After Obama responded, there was a silence for a moment, and then Singleton said, "If I did that, I am so sorry". I think he was probably incredibly embarrassed.

Also, I think they did Obama a favor by asking him the hard questions. He answered them well, and I think it helped him to have the opportunity to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: heric
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:44 AM

No, Jack, your explanation was far more cogent than Maddow or Obama's. I have been trying so hard to understand how Obama could have caused himself so much harm with this. Nothing makes sense except one possibility I see from your statement only. The way I can give him a pass for what seems to be an extraordinarily (1) STUPID, (2) nonsensical, and (3) condescending sentence is as follows:

He WANTS to say, but CAN NOT say: "In answer to the question as to why I am not getting much traction with Pennsylvania voters: I am the candidate for progressive taxation, wealth redistribution and enhanced safety nets. But after decades of campaign rhetoric and false promises, less affluent people, people whom I hope to help most, have only seen wealth disparity increase steadily and significantly, so they have predictably and rationally tuned out on that subject. That leaves them with narrower voting subject matter, which Republicans offer more reliably, or at least more frequently, such as Second Amendment protections and abortion limitations (which may be more in line with their religious viewpoints.)"

He couldn't say that, but he was in a setting where he could come closer to it, and feeling comfortable, he took it on the fly, but stumbled -flopped - deteriorating all the way down to "religion" and xenophobia. (He is awfully young to be campaigning on the national stage.)

I'm hoping, and maybe I'm way off base, that he didn't reveal his hidden disdain for crackers- he almost resurrected, to soon, taxes versus no-new-taxes (that old standard), and the flare-ups of class division.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:10 AM

>>I'm hoping, and maybe I'm way off base, that he didn't reveal his hidden disdain for crackers-<<

no no no , not at all, I don't think. I think he understands and respects these people. He has give this much thought and wants to get in touch with these people.

Here is his 2004 interview with Charlie Rose.

Watch it from 11:00 to 14:00 I think it sheds a clear light on the last few days. He was tired and he messed up and he chose words which were short cuts which did not express the true sentiment idea accurately.


Charlie Rose - BARACK OBAMA Barack Obama, Senator-Elect, (D) Illinois

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:22 AM

One more thought: Yes, I'm bitter! I'm bitter because I can't afford a Rolex. ;-)

Now continue with your scheduled debating...

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:31 AM

Obama hide disdain for crackers?

Please.

He couldn't even hide the disdain for his own grandmother in his "save the race" (no not THAT race) speech, lecturing the nation on why black nationalist Christianity and the Nation of Islam should be our preferred form of worship as duly repenting racist Americans.

And as to his "I am of the people" crap, give me friggin' break.

The pope sounds more sincere saying he is ashamed of his pedophile priests.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:32 AM

those illegal immigrants will keep the wages low because they will work for a lot less The people who keep the wages low are the people who pay low wages. And in the case of people paying wages that are lower than the statutory minimum, the authorities who fail to catch them.

Of course they couldn't do that if there weren't workers desperate enough to accept the jobs for that kind of money, and in the case of illegal immigrants subject to blackmail. But "he who pays the piper calls the tune" - and in this case that means the employers who pay these wages.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:42 AM

And how goes Obama now with the Pennsylvania Catholic vote? I haven't heard.

100

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:51 AM

And according to the latest social science research, Obama is DEAD WRONG in his "bitter" speech, and is exploiting the upper class Dem elites' prejudices.

Here is a brief abstract from a recent study at Penn State, which showed that the conservative Republican base isn't from the working class, but the same upper class elites that he appeals to in his own party:

"The elusive link between conservative Protestantism and conservative economics

Jacob Felson and Heather Kindella, Authors

Pennsylvania State University, Sociology, 1352 Deerfield Drive, State College, PA 16803, USA

Available online 16 January 2007.

Abstract

Research on the political attitudes of conservative Protestants has yielded inconsistent results. We know that conservative Protestants (CPs) tend to be more socially conservative than members of other religious groups and have tended to vote Republican in recent years, but we are less certain of their attitudes toward the size and role of government in matters unrelated to religion. Despite theoretical expectations and qualitative research supporting a link between conservative Protestantism and conservative attitudes about the size and role of government, quantitative work has failed to find a consistent relationship. The present study interprets conservative Protestant issue preferences in the context of research on non-attitudes, arguing that we should not expect ideological constraint among the less educated segment of the population. However, among better educated members of the population, we should expect to find ideologically consistent attitudes. Results from the General Social Survey suggest that better-educated evangelical Protestants are consistently more economically conservative than other Protestants. Among Protestants with lower levels of education, there is no consistent relationship between conservative Protestantism and economic policy preferences. Since the better educated are disproportionately politically active, politicians may be especially likely to pay attention to their interests. This may help to explain why the Republican coalition between social and economic conservatives has endured for several decades and shows no signs of abating."

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:18 AM

Well, one thing is fir sure and that is that the media has developed a case of "buyer's remorse" with their give-Mac-a-pass and stick-it-to-Obams circle jerk on Monday...

So now it's Obama v. Clinton/McWar/Media...

As for rednecks of which mnay weatern Pa people plainly are, they are bitter people who tend to blame anyone but the corporate fat cats for their lousy economic cicumstances... I been hearing it all my life... They wouldn't vote for a Dem no matter... Yeah, they might vote in a dem primary but in the general election they will vote against the dems 'casue the repubs will pulll out the same ol' worn out issues: gay marriage, guns, flag burning & abortion...

"Yeah, Bubba, I hear that Obama is gonna take away yer gun, make yer son marry a queer and kill yer babies..."

(But, Bobert, that sounds purdy "elitist" on yer part...)

Ya' know, some things are just the way they are and there ain't much you can do to change 'um... People may not like looking at a certain demographic and calling it "the way it is" but, like it or not, that "is the way it is"...

Obama knows this... He's been a community organizer... He's been 'round these kinds of folks... Yeah, it may make some folks uncomfy fir him to speak the truth 'cause they see the truth in themselves...

But isn't that what leaders do??? I mean, poll driven politicans don't lead... They follow... Obama has the balls to call "it like it is"...

If you don't like the man, fir gosh sakes, don't vote fir him... That's easy enough.... But to continuely find every opportunity to stick it to him, or his followers, speaks more about those who hate him than anything about Obama's history, values, talents and courage...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM

The people who keep the wages low are the people who pay low wages. And in the case of people paying wages that are lower than the statutory minimum, the authorities who fail to catch them.

No, the people who are willing to accept the low wages are also keeping them low. That's why unions don't like people who cross picket lines and go to work when the union is on strike. But the point that I was trying to get across is that this is how our present government wants things. They are using the illegal status of the immigrants as a tool to keep wages in this country low. And this is why it is different than the situation you're describing in your country.

The solution to this problem is not to blame the immigrants, but for the government to stop using them as a tool of oppression, which means we need to elect people who will correct this problem. The Republicans will not do this. The Democrats might or might not, but the chances are far greater that they will. So to tie this into what Obama said: if people allow the Republicans to suck them into voting for them based on manufactured xenophobia (which is what the Republicans do), they will be voting against their own economic interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:27 PM

Yup...

Been that way since the advent of the Southern Strategy, which BTW, was an offshoot of the Dixiecrats, which BTW was an offshoot of the KKK...

Hmmmmmm???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:40 PM

Fuckin'-A-right I'm bitter.

And I'd also like to point out that, while basically left-of-Democrat in my political philosophy, I AM a "little guy," at least in the economic sense: not a member of any "elite." There are plenty of others like me, and I strongly object to the charge that liberals and progressives are guilty of "condescending" to working-class folks who they don't understand. Most of us share the economic circumstances of "little people" of all political and cultural viewpoints

Since the "Reagan Revolution" of 1980, the richest 2% of Americans have been getting richer while the rest of us have steadily been getting poorer. Most of us find it necessary to delude ourselves about this truly unacceptable situation, because it's just too difficult to face.

For some folks, in some American subcultures, the reaction is prtty much what Obama described: a preoccupation with "traditional values" often coupled with a xenophobic tendency to blame scapegoated minority groups rather than the fatcat corporate exploiters who profit at the expense of the rest of us.

For a much larger number of Americans in closer-to-"mainstream" subcultures, the reluctance to face up to an unbearably dismal reality is mainfested in a stubborn insistence that "we're middle-class sophisticates, not working-class slobs." Folks in this group mask their insecurity by plastering their bodies with the "prestigious" brand names of overpriced "fashion apparel" while sinking deeper and deeper into credit card debt. (See the "Rolex watch" thread.) This mindset is every bit as stupid as that of the unemployed coal miner who blames all his troubles on gay marriage and Mexican immigrants; it's just coated with a fancier veneer.

The political quandry is that a viable candidate trying to achieve real progress for the average person needs to awaken all these deluded citizens and point out that they need to see the world in a fresh and more enlightened manner ~ but without insulting them by pointing out the deficiencies of their current worldviews. It'll be a tough sell.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:44 PM

Yes Bobert, it is the "Southern Strategy". I see a Ray of hope though. If Obama is the President he wants to be, he'll win those people over in 2012.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:48 PM

"When it comes to Koolaid, you wrote the book...

You are a 24K phoney, GUEST, guest...

You spew yer venom like a "true beliver"... Of course, you know exactly what "true believer" is since you are so "classless and free"...

You, and others like you, make me sick...

Yeah, you hide behind yer "classless and free" bullsh*t and when you are called on yer phoney baloney you turn on the caller...

I am transparent here... You are not... I have spent the last5 25 years of my life living in mountain hollers... Where I live would scare the crap outta you so get off yer friggin' high horse fir just one friggin' minute...

I am verifiable... You are not... As far as I know you might be some 13 year old girl??? Get a real life and until you do so yer endless hate-filled attacks on Obama, ot any of the folks who support him, are like yesterday's trash...

Square business!!!

We ain't takin' no more od yer sh*t!!!

Get a life!!!

V~ "........



This is what Mudcat considers to be reasonable debate while every Anti Obama thread that anyone has ever started here, has been deleted by the moderators or over run by Obama supporters?

Any wonder that you end up talking to yourselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:57 PM

Am I Bitter?

Yes, about once a month along with some soda water, a large snip of lemon peel and some fine top shelf gin, shaken in a chilled cocktail shaker and then poured through a seive into a chilled martini glass. it's called Pegu and more of you should really try it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:12 PM

So on the one hand it's not a good idea to have threads in which people "end up talking to yourselves" - but in the case of anti-Obama threads people who disagree with what is said should refrain from posting in them, lest they "over run" them.

It seems to me there is an inconsistency there, somehow. Discussion should be about people who disagree exploring an issue from different points of view.
...................

I haven't seen any of the deleted threads, since evidently they were deleted before I got round to opening them, but I would hazard a guess that there would have been reasons for deleting them other than the fact that the person starting them was critical of Obama.

I have seen threads of various sort closed to further posts, generally for what has seemed good reason (not because of politics) but that's not the same as "deleted".

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:16 PM

Everybody must get drunk..on Pegus

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:33 PM

No, MOH:
       I and others have had their submissions deleted for no reason other than they were not pro Obama and yet hate filled messages like the one I pointed out are perfectly acceptable.
I don't even know which part of the brain has to be removed before you can accept those kinds of offerings but it does seem that as long as you're for Obama, anything goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:02 PM

Since the deleted posts aren't there and I haven't seen them it's a bit hard to know whether I'd agree with you or not. Maybe I would.

That rant from V~ "........ or whoever had a certain style about it which I think tended to counterbalance the venom. I wouldn't see it as necessary to cut it out. I have seen posts which did deserve to get deleted - carping repetitive stuff, often racist or sectarian. None that I recall from you, Jim (if they'd already been deleted I wouldn't have, would I? Which doesn't imply that I see that to be your way of posting.)

Selectively deleting posts on a party political basis is of course unjustifiable (leaving aside the odd Nazi and suchlike, perhaps). Apart from everything else, selectivity isn't that straightforward. In fact, if I were in the business of selectively deleting posts on a political basis myself, it'd be the ones from "my side" that stepped over the line that I'd want to get rid of. I'd be tempted to leave in place the counterproductive nasty ones from "the other side".

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:07 PM

Obama is SOOOO opportunistic, he is just creepy.

Lies about the funding of his campaign by Big Oil, then turns around and blames Clinton for his lies.

Disses Carter for meeting with Hamas (wouldn't want to alienate those Jewish voters he made so nervous when he didn't distance himself from his church's embrace of Nation of Islam & Louis Farrakahn). A COMPLETE contradiction of what he said he would do regarding meeting with "America's enemies".

I believe that is called pandering. And I'm waiting for the announcement that Obama's Senate mentor, Joe Lieberman, will be his VP.

Then we can all sit back and watch Mudcat implode under the weight of their own hypocrisy, as they rationalize voting for an Obama/Lieberman ticket.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:03 PM

Sorrym but I am "v"... It's right next to "B" and I am having worse than usual typing/spellin' problems...

No, Jim, what you don't get is that there has been a steady stream of hate-filled posts by a couple folks here and after awhile it's time to let them know that they are coming off as hate-filled posters...

There's also mis-information that Obama haters seem to delight in promoting...

It makes me think that they, maybe you, are on McCain or Clinton's payroll...

I started this thread to get a discussion of what Obama said and not yet another opening for Obama haters to vent their hatred...

My "V" post was the result of an accumulation of the hate that one particlualr poster has spewed out going back over several weeks and on dozens of different threads...

I wish all of you folks who have problems with Obama would start yer own thread entitled "Why I Hate Obama" rather than pollute just about every thread short of "Mamm's Biscuit Recipe" thread with the clear cut hatred you folks feel for Obama... If not, at least stay with the spirit of the thread...

But, I know, that is asking way too much seein' as you all feel as you have a constitutional right to use every opportuntity to put down Obama and/or his supporters...

The first "koolaide" reference, btwm didn't come from the Obama camp... It came from your camp, Jim... When that kinda sh*t come flyin' at you then don't be surprised when it is returned to sender...

I'm not pointing you out, Jim, but yoyu are allied with at least one Obama hater who is so filled with hate that he or she, IMO, needs some serious mental health help... And this from a former social worker who has dealt with alot of folks with mental problems...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:38 PM

Gee, Janet, it seems you've fallen into a syndrome usually found in Bush supporters. Though, to be honest, it also seems to be found in some Hillary supporters too. Both groups don't seem to read carefully--even what they themselves post.

Too bad the evidence from your oh-so-scholarly excerpt from the PA State study you cite is too slender to support the weighty conclusion you are determined to draw--that Obama was dead wrong in his San Francisco observations. Pardon me if I don't label them "the bitter speech"--since that line was a small part of his argument. Though I understand that as a faithful devotee of Fox News, you believe in the bumper-sticker approach to politics.

But fortunately, I (and other Obama supporters, no doubt) am here to show you the error of your ways.

1) From your excerpt: "Research on the political attitudes of conservative Protestants has yielded inconsistent results". That right there kills your chances of any major valid conclusion from your excerpt.

2) If you actually read Obama's remarks in context--and with an open mind--unreasonable request though that is to make of the president of the Sour Cynics Club--you might realize his conclusions are not only valid, but obvious. Especially the search for scapegoats to explain tough times, foremost among the scapegoats immigrants and foreign trade.

Also, much of Bush's 2004 support came from people who voted against their own economic interests: people vulnerable to propaganda-- people who bought Cheney's line about "here in........ a dirty bomb could be exploded" and the other Bush team line about "if homosexuals can marry, your marriage will be in danger".

If you don't believe this, you're more naive than I thought.

Or perhaps blinded by your own bitterness--I'd say that's actually more likely--and only you know why you are so bitter.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:43 PM

There's plenty of posts that are critical of Obama in this thread and others that have not been deleted. I wonder what's different about them than the ones what have been deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 10:19 PM

Jim Lad,

At the risk of running you off... ;-)

If you are looking for a double standard shouldn't you be pointing to pro Obama threads and anti-whoever else thread that should have been deleted but were not.

The only threads I have seen deleted lately were from me where they've been folded into other threads and from a pretty politically strident "guest" who seems to be putting other members down and/or picking a fight with every other post.

>>yet hate filled messages like the one I pointed out are perfectly acceptable.<<

I can look at the one you pointed out and perhaps see why it was tolerated, calling some one a "Koolaid drinker" in a political argument is a pretty severe putdown.

>>1.         Koolaid Drinker
People who believe anything they are told. people who refuse to change there minds when confronted with facts.
a koolaid drinker is the liberal democrat who is liberal because they are told they should be. they have made no attempt to decide why the are liberal.
often a koolaid "drinker" simply wants to hate anything a republican does good or bad.
koolaid people are the vocal howard dean wing of the democrat party. the converse of rightwing loonies.
koolaid drinkers are the ones that went first when jim jones said drink.

that earth mama hippy chick is such a sixties burn out wanabe. dude she is just a "koolaid drinker" cut her a break. she listens to air american and npr.<<

Using that phrase is condescending and elitist in the worst sort of way.
I don't like anyone likes to be told that he can't think for himself. Especially when it is not true. It pisses Bobert off, he reacts, but even so it is just Internet banter, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:00 PM

What people are 'bantering' about here will have zero influence upon the outcome of the election.

Elections are decided by the money men, not voters.

The money men say, pick Obama or McCain.

Then that's what the boot lickers do. Go down to their polling places, and vote for the guy or gal the money men tell them they can vote for.

US electoral politics. Best damn sham system money can buy.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 01:35 AM

Calling fellow Mudcatters "Koolaid drinkers" wasn't enough? Now its "bootlickers"?

God bless you, I will pray for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Jim Lad
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 03:28 AM

"I wonder what's different about them than the ones what have been deleted."

Probably the fact that they were carefully considered, instructive, informative, effective, well constructed sentences and the authors had the good sense to use
"Spell Check" before submitting.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:50 AM

But Spell Check doesn't correct the punctuation...

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:16 AM

I'm with you JtS...

Bootlickers???

Call yer local mental health agency today, Fantz... You are over the edge...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:27 AM

Boys, boys, boys. Thin skinned, you are.

Jim Lad is talking about an entirely different phenomenon--it is called censorship. And yes, some pro-Obama moderator(s) have been censoring certain posts and threads critical to Obama. They have not done that in regards to any other presidential candidate.

It happens here all the time, and not just about Obama. It was that slippery slope I talked about years ago here, when the mods were allowed to start deleting posts & threads "for maintenance". Ahem.

That said, the rabid Obamamaniacs are, truly, reaping the ill will they themselves wrought when they began their swarm attacks (another Internet phenomenon of web forums like this) of anyone who criticized their boy.

So quit yer bitchin' boys. It should be good enough that you will have your way and your boy for the Democratic nominee. But then, the lot of you weren't exactly born with social poise and grace when it comes to winning, apparently.

Some people, when they win it all, still spit on everybody else. A few Obamamaniacs in this thread are doing just that. They are what is called "sore winners".

BTW, Obama sucked on the debates last night, didn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:32 AM

Last night's tabloid debate moderated by ABC "newsmen" Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopoulas {a "former" Clinton staffer} was a gross insult to the intelligence of Americans. 11,431 people posted comments about that debate so far on abcnews.com's message board {as of 8:30 AM April 17, 2008}. Most of those comments roundly critize Gibson & Stepapholous for their focus on insipid, calculated, gossipy, gotcha questions, most of which were directed to Barack Obama.

Here's a few of those comments:

"There are no words available to match the degree of anger I have with the way ABC (and all other mainstream media for that matter) is running this debate. SHAME ON YOU ABC. YOU are the overpaid, out of touch, insular, pathetic pawns of the corporate interests that run this country. I applaud Senator Obama's efforts to stay above this pathetic offense to democracy, and the network's legal duty to perform the public service of providing serious, informed debate on ISSUES THAT MATTER!!! I am disappointed with Senator Clinton's enthusiasm for the immaterial. But, once again, I am most bitter, and bitter does not even come close, about this network's disdainful failure to even come close to offering a glimpse of its responsibility to the public whose authority it relies on to exist (theoretically). ABC, j'accuse."
Posted by:
mbooth2058 Apr-16

-snip-

"ABC should be ashamed for squandering away this incredibly important opportunity to hear the candidates speak about real important issues that affect Pennsylvanians, and not ridiculous, irrelevant issues about who said what or who knows someone else (or who wears a flag pin!!!!). Charley Gibson and George Stephanopolus are really not helping themselves or our country with such an empty, shallow list of questions. PLEASE, talk about issues that matter".
Posted by:
concernedphiladelphian

**

What is happening right now in this so called debate is a perfect example of what is wrong with network media and why network media is assisting in the "dumb down" and feeling of "frustration" if not bitterness with the great people of his nation - enough of the Wright, bitterness misstatement and patriotism - absolutely incredible - get on with the real issues - you idiots ARE the ones that are out of touch with the American people and you people are the ones that are the real root of the problem - an INCREDIBLE 48 minutes so far on these 3 lame issues - ABC should be sanctioned for this "Alice in Wonderland" garbage you are putting on the airwaves rather than letting the candidates talk about the real issues - this is why fewer and fewer people rely on ABC for their news - I agree with the above in saying SHAME ON ABC"
Posted by:
drulaw Apr 16

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/DemocraticDebate/comments?type=story&id=4666956
"Clinton, Obama Find 'Brotherly Love' at Philly Debate
Dems Last Chance to Settle Scores Before Pennsylvania Primary" April 17, 2008

Postscript- The title of that article speaks for itself, doesn't it? However, I was gratified that most of the people commenting about that so-called debate on abc's blog recognized that it was the worst debate ever, and berated the moderators for insulting the intelligence of American viewers.

Furthermore, it seems to me that Hillary and her campaign advisors-including Mark Penn who wasn't fired-overplayed their hand big time as many commenters on that blog and elsewhere throughout the Internet noted that the moderators targeted Obama with their sniping questions, and were far more lenient toward Clinton. And bloggers also noted that while Obama tried to raise the level of the debate, Hillary seemed eager to continue the "politics of destruction".

I think Hillary Clinton lost a lot of votes last night.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:43 AM

Thin skined, my butt...

"Koolaid drinkers", "bootlickers"??? That's outright nanme calling and is gonna get some stuff blown back at you, Fantz... You use these labels to inflame... You know it... I know it and everybody knows it...

Hey, I can live with this level of namecalling... And I don't believe this should be deleted and more than the rebuttals...

And, as for Obama "sucking" (more inflamatory bitter speech from you), that's your opinion... But you can find the "liberal" (my butt) New York Times which agrees with you now that Big Media has joined the McCain/McClinton attack team... I thought Obama did very well in not lossing his cool under the George 'n Charlie ambush...

As for censorship??? As long as you have a single handle and aren't calling people "fu*kin' assh*les" I don't wnat to see yer posts deleted...

But I still think you need counseling because you are very, very angry...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:47 AM

Spare us the Keith Olbermann analysis.

Face it, Obama sucks at debates. Calling it "tabloid" style is pure network competition hype (or did you not notice that Keith Olbermann works for NBC & the debates were sponsored by ABC?)

It was the first debate I watched in it's entirety. It was the first debate since February, and a lot has happened since then on the campaign trail, and I wanted to see how both candidates addressed those things.

The Wright story IS relevant and WILL be in the general election. When a candidate says "this man is my spiritual mentor" they have put that mentor front and center as part of their campaign, and therefore legitimized scrutiny of them. That isn't "tabloid journalism" and to call it that is not only disingenuous and devious, but blatantly obvious partisanship.

I agreed with Howard Fineman's assessment that there will always be substantive issues that don't get coverage during a debate because of time limits, and because the issues of the nanosecond (we are talking American attention spans here) will always dominate. I also agreed with his assessment that this was one of the more substantive debates on the issues that we have seen. Sad as that truly is, that is the nature of the American journalism (spit) beast.

The flag pin was a cheap shot, but Obama laid quite a few cheap shots himself, so I considered that pretty much a draw.

When you aren't objective Azizi, it really shows.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:49 AM

And for the record, I do believe Obama to be the presumptive Democratic nominee at this point. So I was watching the debate from the perspective of how he might do going against McCain in the fall in the debates.

I'm pretty fucking depressed this morning, and pretty much resigned to yet another four more years of the Republican bone crusher machine.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:52 AM

Well, yeah, Fantz... Enough Obama assasins like you out there and it can happen...

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 01:37 PM

Here are several up-dates about that abc.com article whose link I posted earlier today:

1. The administrators of that forum have changed the article's name "Philly Fight Night: Dems Spar Over Electability
Dems Last Chance to Settle Scores Before Pennsylvania Primary".

2. As of 1:33PM April 17, 2008, there are 14,964 comments posted to that forum about the ABC sponsored debate.

3. 98% of those comments are highly critical of the questions that Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopolous asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 01:52 PM

Hillary Clinton-1992

"People are tired of people who lie to them."

"...are tired of people who act like something they're not".

"...are tired of people who deny problems."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exsmFDYyK4U
Bosnia and Back Again, starring Sen. Hillary Clinton-TRAILER
-a jedreports video

As of 1:53PM April 17, 2008, this video has had 144,037 viewers, 625 comments, & 12 honors.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 01:56 PM

Flapdoodling over his remarks in San Francisco is pretty juvenile, IMHO, because,just as with the villainous distortions levied against Wright, they were neatly cut out of context and then slanted before being re-deposited by bashers in other camps into the public forum.

If anyone wantes to discuss his ACTUAL remarks, in the context in which they were made, it might be an interesting discussion.

I guess this flapdoodle will have folks running arouond in small circles for a few days and then it will pass as they tend to disappear up their own rears. Meanwhile, it will teach Obama not to be thoughtful even in a private house, in case someone with a cell phone records one tenth of a thought and uses it to burn up more of the American attention.

And keep the real issues safe from inspection.

Real issues like embedded criminality in the fundamental systems, rampant greed and dishonor at every level of the country's government, sadistic and murderous manipulators embedded in the woodwork, hot pursuit of profit smashing the infrastructure of our livelihoods... why the list goes on and on. Enough to make one bitter, actually. But if it does he had better not say anything, 'cuz he might be branded for it.

Sheeshe.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:01 PM

I neglected to mention that that "Bosnia and Back Again, starring Sen. Hillary Clinton-TRAILER" video was only posted on April 15, 2008.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:02 PM

And there's also Screw 'em-gate:

..."During the past week, Sen. Hillary Clinton has presented herself as a working class populist, the politician in touch with small town sentiments, compared to the elitism of her opponent, Sen. Barack Obama. But a telling anecdote from her husband's administration shows Hillary Clinton's attitudes about the 'lunch-bucket Democrats' are not exactly pristine. In January 1995, as the Clintons were licking their wounds from the 1994 congressional elections, a debate emerged at a retreat at Camp David. Should the administration make overtures to working class white southerners who had all but forsaken the Democratic Party? The then-first lady took a less than inclusive approach."

"'Screw 'em,' she told her husband. 'You don't owe them a thing, Bill. They're doing nothing for you; you don't have to do anything for them.' The statement -- which author Benjamin Barber witnessed and wrote about in his book, 'The Truth of Power: Intellectual Affairs in the Clinton White House' -- was prompted by another speaker raising the difficulties of reaching 'Reagan Democrats.'...

In the spin room after last night's debate, NBC/NJ's Athena Jones reports, Clinton communications director Howard Wolfson said Clinton was quoted inaccurately and that she did not say it. Wolfson reiterated that on MSNBC's Morning Joe. "It ain't so. It ain't so," he said. "This is not something that occurred." Wolfson dismissed it as a sign of the "situation" that the Obama campaign is in. "It did not happen," he said again.

First Read, however, spoke with Barber, who confirmed the "screw-em" remark but wanted to add some context:
-- He pointed out that everyone in that room back in '95 was angry about the Republicans taking over Congress. The only person who wasn't angry was Bill, who (as the HuffPo piece also explains) talked about the importance of reaching out to white southerners.
-- He noted that the Hillary from '94-'95 was a MUCH different person from the Hillary in Bill's second term. She had moved from ideological liberal to a pragmatic leader. He says his 2001 book, in fact, has a chapter on this transformation.
-- He is a Hillary Clinton supporter and has given Clinton money."...

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/04/17/907891.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:36 PM

Heh! You said it perfectly, Amos, in a nutshell. Anyone running for president must be careful NEVER to say anything actually thoughtful or insightful...not even in private...that could get recorded and then come back to haunt them.

Uh-uh. Phoniness is the game. Phoniness and total duplicity. Just say what everyone wants to hear, say what's been said a million times before, mouth the patriotic cliches, make sure that it's all so bland and totally predictable and conventional that it couldn't possibly offend ANY special interest group...and you will be on safe ground.

Act like a tinpot dummy with an American flag decal stuck on his lapel in other words. That's what gets people elected, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:51 PM

Are You Bitter???

                   I wasn't until Obama brought it up!

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 03:25 PM

I just now voted in the early voting here. First time in my life that I voted in a primary in which my vote would actually matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:09 PM

>>
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:51 PM

Are You Bitter???

                   I wasn't until Obama brought it up!<<

Yes I noticed a profound change in your demeanor since then.


HAHAHAHA

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:27 PM

Jack - I didn't know you were watching.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:04 PM

In my experience, Riginslinger, virtually everyone is bitter about something....but it should be no news to anyone that lower income Americans are bitter. I thought it was common knowledge. (?) Hell, what could be more obvious than that there's a lot of bitterness out there? People feel powerless. They feel that their governments and leaders have betrayed them. They feel that nothing they do makes any difference to the way their society is run, and that their vote ends up meaning little or nothing.

They're right!

Now, what tends to go wrong when people, quite justifiably, feel bitter about stuff like that is that a lot of their frustration ends up getting dumped on other ordinary people who are not responsible in any way for the fix that all the ordinary people are in.

Why should any of that surprise anyone? As I said, it's obvious. It happens everywhere, not just in the USA. It's a worldwide problem. Obama was stating something that is totally, utterly obvious to anyone who's not afraid to hear someone else say it in public, and silly enough to take it personally when they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:24 PM

Senator Barack Obama could have been bitter about being the target of last night's attempted high tech lynching that called itself a debate. But his response to ABC's tabloid debate is different from the response that a typical, old-school politician would probably have had.

Here's a link to a YouTube video clip of Obama's comments about that so-called debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlR9DNfqGD4
Barack Obama in Raleigh, NC

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:45 PM

"It's not the first time I made a misstatement that was mangled up, and it won't be the last," said Mr. Obama.

Perfect answer - resolves everything and sets it straight. I wish he had just said that from the start.

He has it in hand, now. Back to his long suit: authenticity.

For those some of you who insisted that what he said in that train wreck - air crash - disaster of a sentence was "true" and "sensible" and "rationale," you have just been refuted by Mr. Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:50 PM

Or by a strategically pragmatic (and under the circumstances, wise) move on his part to cool down and end the issue... ;-) In his place, I would probably say just what he said, just in order to put the thing to rest.

But I find nothing wrong with his statement when seen in its original context, and in the entirety of its original context.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:00 PM

"...disaster of a sentence was "true" and "sensible" and "rationale," you have just been refuted by Mr. Obama."


                Most things that are sensible and rationale have been refuted by Mr. Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:02 PM

I won't disagree that the sentence was phrased badly (in that it was easily misinterpreted), but what he was saying said is perfectly true and appropriate, and he has said the same himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:14 PM

Exactly, Carol. And, look...anyone who has a modicum of patience and is willing to look at the whole of Obama's statement on that day can see that.

Anyone, on the other hand, who simply is emotionally set against Obama from the getgo can only see bad things whenever they see Obama, because that's how the human mind works. It forms an opinion. It forms a prejudice. It then hunts around ever afterward for anything it can possibly find which appears to it to support its prejudice and it interprets everything it sees to support its prejudice. It hates. It does not forgive. It does not make exceptions for its hatred. It does not recognize or compromise with those it hates. It cherishes its chosen enemies, and would have to find new ones if they all went away.

It wouldn't matter to Riginslinger what Obama said or did, he would always interpret it in a bad way, because he has simply decided he can't stand Obama. He is the same toward anyone or anything he labels "religious", meaning, oh, a few billion people out there in the world.

There's no remedy for such an attitude. Such attitudes replicate themselves eternally regardless of any and all other possibilities. They are the soul of fanaticism. They are their own judge, jury, and executioner. They are immune to all other viewpoints. To expect them not to be would be as futile as to expect a goose to stop shitting on the lawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:36 PM

What is "true" is that YOUR prejudices match Obama's prejudices.

But make no mistake, those prejudices don't match truth or reality.

Not in midwestern small town MN, not in small town western PA (where my partner is from, and he was in Philly for the debates last night, and is now headed home for the weekend).

You see, in those places, Obama's elitist pandering to the wealthy San Fran money folk DOES matter. It DOES change their opinion of him.

Now, will it cause them not to vote for him?

Not likely. EVERYONE is desperate to get rid of this Republican stranglehold on our way of life and our government.

But don't mistake those votes with either agreement with Obama, or with liking him or believing in him as a great leader. People just want the Republicans out of the White House, so will vote for whomever the Democratic candidate is--and voters have been telling us that for months.

It is all doublespeak and hypocrisy, from the Clinton camp and the Obama camp and the McCain camp. Voters know that. This is lesser of two evil voting. The "surge" in voter registration shows how unhappy voters are--NOT that they are gung ho for a particular candidate.

We all just want the nightmare to end.

No one can make me believe that voters are swinging to Obama because he is the next JFK. I haven't spoken to one single Obama voter who says that, including the African American colleagues I work with who will vote for him in the fall.

No, that isn't what this election is going to be about.

What this election will be about is getting rid of the neocons.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:56 PM

Thank you, Janet. You retain your crown of Bitterness Queen. Rig is unchallenged as Mr. Sour Cynic. So I suppose the presidency of the Sour Cynics Club must rotate between you two.

I'll clue you--there's a lot more to new Obama voters and new Obama supporters than just getting rid of Bush and avoiding his supposed 3rd term--McCain. Obama's post-racial, post- partisan approach has struck a deep chord. Not that you can imagine it, of course, but there are huge numbers of people ready to end the vicious partisan battles which have resulted in gridlock for so long--and actually get something done on issues which have been festering for a long time. That's what he promises--and with a Congress and Senate feeling the same way, it can happen.

Naive?   The alternative is more of what we've had at least since 1980, if not before. No thanks.

I suppose the main question now is: what has life done to you that you feel such bottomless bile?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:02 PM

It doesn't matter who the next president will be. They will suck, for certain. Because ALL the final candidate choices SUCK. Including Obama. He SUCKS. Last night proved he won't be able to hold his own in a debate in the general election. He is a friggin' lawyer, with an army of media "advisors" surrounding him, grooming him, coaching him, putting the politically correct words in his mouth that will allow him to win. He doesn't say anything that hasn't been vetted by a bazillion focus groups.

He is a phony.

Clinton is a phony.

McCain is a phony.

Pull whichever lever you want, but the result will remain the same.

Dismal.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:09 PM

It's not a prejudice to say that politicians use wedge issues like gun control and immigration to manipulate voters into casting votes that are contrary to their own interests. It's also not a prejudice to say that a lot of voters are manipulated into doing that by politicians using wedge issues in that way. Those happen to be facts and it's why so many elections are essentially won or lost on those kinds of wedge issues. And that's what Obama was saying. But some people are allowing their own prejudices to cause them to read things into what Obama was trying to say that aren't there.

Obama was saying that disillusionment with the government is causing a lot of voters, particularly those who live in areas that are hard hit economically, to vote against their own economic interests because of politicians who are manipulating them into doing so using wedge issues. And he was telling people who would be campaigning for him some talking points they could use when they encountered such people.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:11 PM

"It wouldn't matter to Riginslinger what Obama said or did, he would always interpret it in a bad way,..."


                      LH - I'm not sure that's true. He says some things I agree with, and some things I disagree with. The problem is the element of credibility. I'm not sure I can believe him.

                      That's Clinton's advantage. She says some things you can believe, and some things you cannot believe, but she's been around long enough that you know which is real, and which isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:16 PM

Or wedge issues like "you are all a bunch of dumbfuck crackers because you won't vote for me".

Or wedge issues like "even my grandma is a racist".

Or wedge issues like "if you disagree with me, you must be a Republican".

Insert fingers in ears and sing loudly.

LALALALALALALALALALALALa...

repeat

repeat

repeat

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:26 PM

Rig--


You know which things Clinton says are "real":

Anything you say;

For instance

1) Hillary has always been against NAFTA

2) Hillary has always been the friend of the blue-collar worker.

3) the good old favorite; Bosnian sniper fire

4) Hillary's "opening the Macedonian border"

5) Hillary influencing US policy toward Rwanda under Bill Clinton

Are these real or not?

(And there's a long list besides.)


If you think you know which things Hillary says are "real", you're considerably more naive than I had thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:39 PM

Or wedge issues like "you are all a bunch of dumbfuck crackers because you won't vote for me".

That's a pretty good example of interpreting his remarks through the filter of one's prejudices. Personally, though, I don't think you really give a shit about any of this. I think you're just having some fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 07:38 AM

Ooops. My bad.

Yes Carol, that example is a reflection of my prejudices. But I am willing to admit it.

You and the others who have chosen to vote for Obama, keep rationalizing your decision as the best possible decision that could be made, which is rarely, if ever, the case in electoral politics.

Also, unless someone has interviewed every single voter, in depth, as to their reasons for voting the way they are voting, no one "knows" the "facts" of why people vote the way they do. That is MSM pundit propaganda. That is simply their spin on what the voters motives are, and it is pure conjecture--like most of what passes for objective reporting is these days.

A lot of Obama voters are virgin activists. Same with Clinton voters. We know that there has been an increase in voting in this primary season, but it hasn't set historical records (despite what the MSM pundit propagandists claims). Historically, that has been a sign of voter discontent with the status quo, not of new political messiah (like Bill Clinton, for instance, the last Democratic candidate to pull in voters like Obama is now doing).

Obama will win the nomination in all likelihood. Why isn't that enough for his supporters?

But if you think him winning will make people less bitter, you are crazy. Obama has his finger on the pulse of Democratic "fed up" voters. But how tough is that to do? He is feeding them the very messages they want to hear. So voters talk themselves into actually believing their words, even when all of their personal experience tells them he too will be just another politician, fishing for their votes, and not much of a leader.

What I see in Obama is a very cynical manipulation of charismatic arrogance. I saw him doing the "brush off" his shoulders/back, whatever it was supposed to be, and I was stunned once again by it: that arrogance. He isn't even attempting to conceal it anymore. It is like he is giving everybody the finger--challenging someone to go ahead, try and knock my block off. VERY offputting. And frankly, no less arrogant than Bush/Cheney.

Now, you want an arrogant, know it all president? Vote for Obama, he IS your man.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:33 AM

Well, I will be less bitter if Obama wins the general election... But then again I support Obama not as the least evil but because I happen to actually like the guy??? What a concept??? But it seems that I am not alone here... Millions of other folks like him as well...

But the folks that Obama was talking about probably won't be less bitter because their circumstances won't change just because Obama might win in Novemeber...

What "sucks" isn't necessarilly the candidtaes this time around... What "sucks" is the situation our country is in...

We have had 4 decades of "trickle down" econiomics and Obama isn't going to be able to reverse that in 4 year or even 8 years... Corporatization is too institutionalized to be undone in one or two terms... Oral Roberts couldn't undo it... (lol)...

But what Obama can do is maybe get folks who are bitter and cling to "religion and guns" to understand that part of the reason that they aren't doing better is because they have been unwilling to place blame where blame is due... These folks have routinely voted against their own interests...

Now I'm not going to say that there has always been a choice because the Dems haven't exactly been clean themselves but given the current situation one party or the other is going to have to step to the plate and address the the imbalence of wealth and the Dems are in the best position to do that... Will they is another matter... BVut best position, yes...

The problem here is that the Clintons are way to embedded with corporatists...

As for Obama being arrogant??? One can't come from being an community organizer to being arrogant... Commmunity organizing is a very sobering experience... Yeah, arrogance, elitest are just PR manufactured... Nothing more and nothing less... And some folks will buy into it and others won't... That is the nature of campaigns...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:08 AM

"I want to be elected President" - that is real all right. Not too sure about much else...

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:22 AM

Ron - Of the things you've listed above, you are not able to tell which are "real" and which are not? And you're callling me naive?

                   The one thing that is real is--Hillary has always been a friend of the blue collar worker. Maybe not even by choice, but simply by circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:25 AM

"Screw them"

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:02 AM

I'm not rationalizing, Fantasma. I'm following my conscience. I'm willing to give Obama a chance to live up to his rhetoric. And that's the difference between him and Hillary for me. I'm willing to let Obama live up to his rhetoric because, for the most part, I like his rhetoric. What has changed for me so that I can say that now, where I couldn't before, is that I am hearing things from him now that I didn't before, and I am learning things about his background that I like and didn't know before. I don't like everything about him or his rhetoric, but enough to pass my threshold of acceptability.

I don't want to give Hillary a chance to live up to her rhetoric because for the most part, I don't like her rhetoric. And I don't like her history.

Subject: Why you should be bitter?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:24 AM

Hillary has gradually become a shill for a handfull of banking families who think they know best how the world must divide its resources. These are indeed powerful friends to have if you want to achieve an expensive goal.

She will gladly say one thing and do another so that the necessary genocide to come runs as somethly and qietly as possible.


Obama flys in the face of the monied critical solution commitees.
Even if he wins, he is merely a bump in the raod of an agenda that deals with deliberate and insidious changes to occur over 7 generations.

I will isolate one part of the agenda which has been in play for 50 years now. IT is to STOP THE HIGHER EDUCATION OF THE UNDERCLASS !
They only become the protestors to all the establishment needs to preserve.
Replace the mistake of GI bill with high cost loans and now no college loans at all. This week 4 banks dclared they will no longer offer school loans! Allow only the richest families pursue college. The cutting off of higher education is a gradual program begun during the Nixon administration.

The American Entterprise Institute yestereday released their findings that "middle class pwople should not send their kids to college since the return on the investment is not worth the time and money spent on a college education that now costs 4 times as much as it did 20 years ago.

A populist president may have to be endured by the ruling class for only so long, then its business as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:42 AM

"Obama flys in the face of the monied critical solution commitees."


                   Donuel - That's certainly a different Obama than the one I've been hearing, but I agree with everything else in your post.

                   Changes in the nature of higher education seem to be part of the problem as well. It is now looked upon as "job training," where the college experience used to embrace education on a much broader scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:50 AM

Changes in the nature of higher education seem to be part of the problem as well. It is now looked upon as "job training," where the college experience used to embrace education on a much broader scale.

If Obama said this, people like Hillary would accuse him of being "elitist".

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:12 PM

Well, yeah, Donuel...

"Brave New World" is what the monied class has in mind here...

"Critical thinking" is their enemy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:36 PM

"'If Obama said this, people like Hillary would accuse him of being "elitist".'"


                Carol - I can see that we view the two candidates completely differently. I don't think it would ever occurr to Obama to say what I wrote, but how could a broad education be considered elitist?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:46 PM

That's just the way the people who use the term 'elitist' against some Democratic candidates use the word, Riginslinger. I don't agree with them, myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:49 PM

Well, I could certainly see how a candidate calling a blue collar worker "bitter," because an illegal alien undercut his job, and then not understanding why the worker is mad about it is an elitist position.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 02:16 PM

Well, I could certainly see how a candidate calling a blue collar worker "bitter," because an illegal alien undercut his job, and then not understanding why the worker is mad about it is an elitist position.

Are you describing Obama with this statement? On what basis do you say that he doesn't understand why workers are mad about losing their jobs to illegal aliens?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 02:27 PM

Didn't Obama actually say that he did understand why someone in that position would be feeling mad about it. And frustrated and bitter at the failure of conventional politics to respond to these kind of issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 02:28 PM

I'll answer that one for rig while he is taking a break. In "mad about it," IT refers to the train wreck sentence. Rig means that if Obama can not comprehend that that sentence, standing on its own, was extraordinarily condescending and divisive, then Obama is not going to get the guy's vote.

The subject is important, and Obama and his supporters need to grasp the concept (I'm sure he does) unless he wants to be buried with Mondale and Dukakis and Kerry and . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 02:33 PM

But he does understand it in that context. He has agreed that he put what he was trying to say very badly because he does understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 02:40 PM

yeah I agree with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:59 PM

"Elistist" is right outta Pappa Bush's play book... And it has worked every well... The problem with that strategy is when you aim yer campaign at lesser educated people you have to keep them happy by appointing light weights and thus you get stuff like:

1. Katrina

2. Iraq

3. $4 a gallon gas

4. An ineffective EPA

5. Recession/Depression

You know, those kinds of things...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:37 PM

In relation to Obama "Elitist" is code for "uppity".

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 06:16 PM

They use that word for people who aren't Black as well, McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 06:57 PM

Yeah, look how uppity Kerry turned out to be!

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 07:07 PM

;-)

Let me rephrase...


They use the term "elitist" for people who aren't Black as well, McGrath.

"Uppity" is also used for people who are not Black as well as those who are, but not so much in a political context like this one, and obviously for different reasons. "Uppity" is used to put people who are being discriminated against "in their place", while "elitist" is used as a form of class warfare to alienate "working class" people from the politicians who are being accused of it. It's essentially a divide and conquer tactic.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:45 PM

Rig--

Sorry, Rig--all the things I listed--that Hillary supposedly believes or has done-- are false.

Including that Hillary has always been a strong supporter of blue-collar workers. Sorry, that's drivel. Her rage after the health-care reform disaster and the 1994 election disaster is well known.

Her "Screw-em" (meaning white Southerners) is well documented--confirmed by several people who heard it. Bill had to explain political realities to her.

So, yes, it appears you are more naive than I thought.

Another idol shattered.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:50 PM

Okay, Ron. Describing yourself as "sorry" is perfectly adeguate for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:30 PM

That's right, Rig, it breaks my heart to have to to contradict you. After all, you know how much respect I've always had for your political expertise.

Fascinating that you have managed to come up with precisely zero evidence to counter my facts.

Seems like all the merchandise at "Smears R US" has gone stale. Too bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:48 PM

I think Hillary's anti-union stance while she was representing Walmart certainly indicates an elitist background. That, plus her association with The Family, which is totally about elitism. She's no friend of blue collar workers.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM

But Obama will win the nomination, so the bigger question is, now that your boy has won, why do all of you pro-Obama Mudcatters remain so bitter?

Your boy won.

So why are you all STILL so obsessed with bashing Clinton?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 09:25 AM

Janet--

You may not have noticed Hillary is still in the race. She has recovered before. It's not likely this time--but you never know.

Just take another sedative--or try another brand. Obviously the ones you take now aren't doing the job.





Peggy Noonan, in the WSJ today, put it pretty well.


"Mrs. Clinton is transmitting but people aren't receiving. She has been branded, understood, and categorized. People have decided what they think, and it's not good".

The irony is: she had the nomination easily---and threw it away. If I had to guess the origin of her problem, it was her refusal to admit she was wrong in voting to authorize Bush to use force in Iraq. She was determined to "triangulate" right from the start--and infuriated the antiwar movement by doing so. They needed a new home--and found it with Obama. Who then enhanced his appeal immeasurably by his post-racial, post-partisan appeal--while type-casting her as "old politics" --which Team Clinton's negative campaigning confirmed perfectly.

Obama was blessed by having her as his opponent.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 09:57 AM

Peggy Noonan? You are quoting me chapter and verse from the friggin' WSJ and Peggy Noonan? That bitch of the right wing who mothered the likes of Ann Coulter?

Go to hell.

This is about the glass ceiling for women. Not to worry anybody, it is still safely in place. The patriarchy status quo has been protected.

CBS will fire Katie Couric's ass, Hilary Clinton will slink back to the Senate, and all will be right in The Man's world.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 10:23 AM

And Obama doesn't stand a chance in the general election.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 12:26 PM

I find it ironic that if someone says Obama an elitist, that's not bashing, but if someone says Hillary is an elitist, that is bashing in your book, Fantasma.

If Hillary and McCain are going to use that tired old tactic, I think it's appropriate to call them on their own elitism. They opened that door, and it's perfectly appropriate for people to point out the phoniness of their stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 12:51 PM

Hilary Clinton IS an elitist. So is Obama. So is John McCain.

So what the hell is your point, CarolC?

That's the point I've been making for months. You have all jumped on the bandwagon of the biggest money vacuum candidate running on behalf of Wall Street and the Democratic party ruling elite.

What I am saying is, any attempt to make him Mr. Everyman to make YOU feel more comfortable voting for the guy is YOUR problem, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 12:52 PM

Janet--

Time for another sedative. You really have to change brands to a stronger one.

Wisdom can come from anywhere--including a WSJ columnist.

Fascinating that, aside from your usual pointless fulminations, you have no actual evidence--or even a counter-argument-- to put up against my observations.

By the way, there's actually a difference between Peggy Noonan and dear Ann. As I recall, JTS has already cited Peggy with approval. Too bad if, as usual, your blind rage has destroyed your powers of discrimination. Sounds like you're a female Carville who's found at least one Judas.

But, as I said, we love you anyway--or perhaps for that reason. Watching you stew is just so damn entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 12:53 PM

"What I am saying is, any attempt to make him Mr. Everyman to make YOU feel more comfortable voting for the guy is YOUR problem, not mine."

That is a bit short-sighted, imo. The results of this particular election are extremely important to everyone on this planet. That includes you.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 12:56 PM

Now I'm supposed to accept JTS stamp of approval on right wing nut Peggy Noonan, so you can justify voting for the puppet the American ruling elite is putting forward this year?

I'm supposed to accept YOUR stamp of approval on American ruling elite's MSM mothership, the Wall Street Urinal?

Take a rollin' leap thru the donut hole, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 01:02 PM

Oh Janet, it's just so much fun to watch you boil. Now be careful of your blood pressure--we'd hate to lose the entertainment you provide.

Don't ever change.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 01:02 PM

No, the outcome of this election is the SOS. So it doesn't matter to me, Peace.

If it matters to you, and you think it SHOULD matter to everyone, more power to your elbow. But millions of people in the US who are eligible to vote & don't, really don't agree with your assessment, because they don't believe in electoral process for president either.

So, let's be straight about that. I don't think this election will change much of anything. And I certainly don't believe any of the MS party candidate front-runners, McCain, Clinton, or Obama, will do anything but protect the interests of the American ruling elite, regardless of which party wins the White House or Congress in November.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 01:04 PM

Sure enough, gutter language--surest sign the poster is bankrupt of ideas. Not surprising, I'd have to say, in your case, Janet.

But at least you're on the right thread--this is the one for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 01:08 PM

And a cheery fuck off to you too. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 01:15 PM

"No, the outcome of this election is the SOS."

In many ways I agree with you. I think that anyone running for president will have to kowtow to the power brokers, make nice with the multi-nationals. But truthfully, I don't see many options. When Kucinich pulled the pin on this election it heralded in my mind the end of any chance for America to regain some level of democracy. Businesses that give money to candidates--either as businesses or through third parties--will expect some sort of quid pro quo down the road. However, I see no alternative. That's why if I were voting I'd put the X beside Obama's name. Of the three I think he's the least offensive and the least tied-in to the structures that 'shape' the politics of your(?) country.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 01:16 PM

"...bankrupt of ideas"

QED

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 01:32 PM

Ron, Peace,

She isn't putting forth any coherent ideas. She is just slinging shit at the walls and everyone in sight until some of it sticks. If there is something that looks rational in there. It is by coincidence. But it is obvious that what she is trying to do is to make every thread she enters about her.

Apparently it is some kind of an affront to her to have people calmly discussion the issues of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 01:39 PM

"But it is obvious that what she is trying to do is to make every thread she enters about her."

Nah, I don't think you are in danger there.

Some of you Mudcatters here are masters at making any thread I enter about me, rather than my words and my opinions.

Talk about shit slinging. But I ain't worried. I got me one of these:

http://www.theslurps.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 03:24 PM

This person who rants against all candidates and is not going to vote for any one of them and takes pleasure in name calling anyone who has examined and is still keeping a careful eye on each candidate, this person who presents herself as working in the 'inner city', one who agonizes over the dead end that most of her charges face - in my opinion this person is a phony. The give away is that one cannot be that full of bile on the one hand and yet be full of compassion on the other. There isn't that much room in a heart.

If this be an attack on an individual, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 03:32 PM

Moving right along, here are some comments in response that were written in response to a witty but sad re-writing of the Lincoln/Douglas debate using a format like the tabloid ABC primary debate "moderated by Charlie Gibson & George Stephanopolous.

"I feel bitter about American politics.

Posted by: wonkie | April 17, 2008 at 11:41 PM

**
I feel bitter about American politics.

Are you bitter about American politics this much (extending fingers), this much (extending hands slightly), or thiiiiiis much (extending hands broadly)?

Also, if your bitterness about American politics were a leafy green vegetable, which one would it be? Brussel sprouts? Spinach?

Posted by: ThatLeftTurnInABQ | April 17, 2008 at 11:51 PM

-snip-

Click http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/04/the-lincoln-dou.html to read other comments as well as the script of "The Lincoln-Douglas Debates of 1858 (Slight Return)" by publius.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 07:06 PM

Was Bill Clinton bitter? If so, would really Hillory know?

Maybe, only Monica knows, for sure?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 08:21 PM

At 9:06 this morning Fantasman wrote: "Your boy won"...

Boy???

Why not nigger???

Give me a break!!! I been workin' all day an' I can't believe that some 11 hours later and no one has called Fantasman on this???

Beam me up, Scotty... I stuck in the middle of a Klan ralley...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 09:12 PM

Where is the Klan in all of this anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 09:13 PM

According to Snoop, they are backing Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 09:17 PM

Bobert, fantasma isn't a racist, imo. She simply has equal disdain for all three candidates, none of the disdain based on gender, creed, ethnicity, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 09:26 PM

It's all right, Peace. Bobert's been too busy with his Bible to learn the contemporary cultural references to the word "boy" in hip hop lyrics.

BTW, it is good to know that same folks get it, Peace. Others, well...they love their Obama!

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 09:55 AM

Okay, I'll have to admit that I am not of the hip-hop generation... I am of the radical generation and learned that "boy" ain't what black men are to be called...

And, yes, I will also admit that I know my way around the Bible and am a person of Faith...

With that said, if hip-hopper's think that offending their parents and grand-parents is fine then I would have to call them on it as well... My son writes and occasionally performs rap butn he would know not to refere to a black man as "boy"...

Also, I understand that things are said or sung by black artists about black culture that I, from my value system, are outta bounds for white people...

Yes, I remember when I was teaching GED in the Richmond City Jail and then working at Rubicon's half way house as a counselor and I was usually the only white person around and the black folks would call each other "nigga" and call me "nigga" (which to me was endearing) but I never found it comfortable in reciprocating...

As for Fantz being an equal-opportunity trashers of candidates and their backers, I don't see it... Seems the only one she is after is Obama and his supporters???

What's that all about???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 10:23 AM

Because Obama is the only candidate being discussed in this forum.

Look back over the forum threads since January, and they are overwhelmingly about Obama, and any attempts to begin a discussion about any other candidates, from Ron Paul on the right to Ralph Nader on the left, are shouted down by the Mudcat Obamanation.
,
This place is like a mini-MoveOn.org or HuffPo, both of which are front line armies of the Obamanation. And make no secret about it.

So the fact that I am more critical about Obama than other candidates isn't for want of trying to get some discussion going of other candidates. Those conversations aren't being tolerated here by the Mudcat majority, who now are all on the Obama bandwagon.

Peace is dead on the mark, Bobert. I hate ALL THREE remaining MS candidates equally.

And to claim that the only interpretation of the use of the slang term "your boy" is racist, is pure bullshit. If I were in Dublin, I would say "yer man". But you are such a goader and baiter, you refuse to acknowledge those things, preferring to take the low road around every chance you get.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 12:08 PM

Janet--

Still haven't found the right sedative?   Keep looking. But when you find it, please don't take so many that you can't vote for Obama in the fall.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 12:15 PM

Well, Fantz, this thread wouldn't exist if Clinton's attack dogs hadn't made a story outta somehting that she nmight have siad her ownself...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 12:27 PM

blah blah blah blah

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 12:57 PM

"And to claim that the only interpretation of the use of the slang term "your boy" is racist, is pure bullshit"

Yes, you are correct. It is not the *only* intepretation. But it is one that is so offensive, that any person who truly wished to engage in civilized discussion would not use the phrase.

It is true that the word "spade" has several meanings, as does the word "chink". But grown-up non-trolls are careful to use these words only in a context where their innocuous meaning is clearly intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 01:18 PM

I already mentioned the hip hop context that uses it in racially charged contexts all the time.

So now, hip hop isn't civilized? Isn't grown up enough to use the words that have been used against them in whatever creative contexts they want to use them in to create a barrier against white aggression that is largely the cause of the destruction of their communities across the US?

I said this in the other thread. I consider N.W.A.'s song "Straight Outta Compton" a masterpiece. Here are the lyrics:

Verse One: Ice Cube

Straight outta Compton crazy motherfucker named Ice Cube
From the gang called Niggaz With Attitudes
When I'm called off I got a sawed off
Squeeze the trigger and bodies are hauled off
You too boy if ya fuck with me
The police are gonna hafta come and get me
Off yo ass that's how I'm goin out
For the punk motherfuckers that's showin out
Niggaz start to mumble, they wanna rumble
Mix em and cook em in a pot like gumbo
Goin off on a motherfucker like that
with a gat that's pointed at yo ass
So give it up smooth
Ain't no tellin when I'm down for a jack move
Here's a murder rap to keep yo dancin
with a crime record like Charles Manson
AK-47 is the tool
Don't make me act the motherfuckin fool
Me you can go toe to toe, no maybe
I'm knockin niggaz out tha box, daily
yo weekly, monthly and yearly
until them dumb motherfuckers see clearly
that I'm down with the capital C-P-T
Boy you can't fuck with me
So when I'm in your neighborhood, you better duck
Coz Ice Cube is crazy as fuck
As I leave, believe I'm stompin
but when I come back, boy, I'm comin straight outta Compton

Chorus:

[City of Compton, City of Compton]

[Eazy E] Yo Ren
[MC Ren] Whassup?
[Eazy E] Tell em where you from!

Verse Two: MC Ren

Straight outta Compton, another crazy ass nigga
More punks I smoke, yo, my rep gets bigger
I'm a bad motherfucker and you know this
But the pussy ass niggaz don't show this
But I don't give a fuck, I'ma make my snaps
If not from the records, from jackin the crops
Just like burglary, the definition is 'jackin'
And when illegally armed it's called 'packin'
Shoot a motherfucker in a minute
I find a good piece o' pussy, I go up in it
So if you're at a show in the front row
I'm a call you a bitch or dirty-ass ho
You'll probably get mad like a bitch is supposed to
But that shows me, slut, you're composed to
a crazy muthafucker from tha street
Attitude legit cause I'm tearin up shit
MC Ren controls the automatic
For any dumb muthafucker that starts static
Not the right hand cause I'm the hand itself
every time I pull a AK off the shelf
The security is maximum and that's a law
R-E-N spells Ren but I'm raw
See, coz I'm the motherfuckin villain
The definition is clear, you're the witness of a killin
that's takin place without a clue
And once you're on the scope, your ass is through
Look, you might take it as a trip
but a nigga like Ren is on a gangsta tip
Straight outta Compton...

Chorus:

[City of Compton, City of Compton]

[Dr. Dre] Eazy is his name and the boy is comin...

Verse Three: Eazy-E

...straight outta Compton
is a brotha that'll smother yo' mother
and make ya sister think I love her
Dangerous motherfucker raises hell
And if I ever get caught I make bail
See, I don't give a fuck, that's the problem
I see a motherfuckin cop I don't dodge him
But I'm smart, lay low, creep a while
And when I see a punk pass, I smile
To me it's kinda funny, the attitude showin a nigga drivin
but don't know where the fuck he's going, just rollin
lookin for the one they call Eazy
But here's a flash, they never seize me
Ruthless! Never seen like a shadow in the dark
except when I unload, see I'll get over the hesitation
and hear the scream of the one who got the last penetration
Give a little gust of wind and I'm jettin
But leave a memory no one'll be forgettin
So what about the bitch who got shot? Fuck her!
You think I give a damn about a bitch? I ain't a sucker!
This is the autobiography of the E, and if you ever fuck with me
You'll get taken by a stupid dope brotha who will smother
word to the motherfucker, straight outta Compton

Chorus:

[City of Compton, City of Compton]

[Damn that shit was dope!]

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 01:20 PM

So digg dat.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Bitter???
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 01:56 PM

Pure shit

Barry