BS: Torture!!!!

Subject: BS: TORTURE!!!!
From: TIA
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:00 PM

How is it that the POTUS can admit publicly that he has violated both USA law, and the Geneva conventions, and it rates barely a mention on the national news, and no thread on Mudcat? (so sorry if I am am simply being dumb and missing the thread).

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/LawPolitics/story?id=4635175&page=1

Is it just me? Why are we not all in the streets demonstrating?

We have become exactly what we spent my lifetime opposing (USSR, Syria, North Korea, Red China, Saddam's Iraq, etc. etc. etc....)

How in the world can we (Americans) claim any high ground whatsoever in any international debate over human rights?

The world should be pissing on OUR Olympic flame.

Abu Ghraib is simply under new management.

Can anyone who was appallled by Clinton's blowjob seriously feel that this is okay? That the "rule of law" is less violated by this? That civilization was more threatened by a cigar in a vagina than planned and sanctioned water torture?

WHAT THE FUCK???????????????????????

You Bush supporting SHITHEADS. This is what you gave us. We are now a country with an official torture policy approved by the Commander in Chief.

Please, hit me with your rationalizations, then go sleep well.

Assholes.

(Bet this one will get deleted or edited. Sorry. I am angry.)

Subject: RE: BS: TORTURE!!!!
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:19 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/LawPolitics/story?id=4635175&page=1

I'm not sorry you're angry, TIA. I just don't understand why you are holding back what you really feel.

Maybe the bastard can be impeached now?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:29 PM

Anger doesn't seem to have worked for the last 7 years. I didn't see this story, but I am not at all surprised. I didn't vote for this idiot any of the four times he has run in my lifetime (I was stuck with the idiot as governor for a term and a half, before his hand-picked pretty boy took over here).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: TIA
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:31 PM

From the story...

"According to a top official, Ashcroft asked aloud after one meeting: "Why are we talking about this in the White House? History will not judge this kindly." The Principals also approved interrogations that combined different methods, pushing the limits of international law and even the Justice Department's own legal approval in the 2002 memo"

Holy shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:33 PM

I got this in an e-mail this morning, listened to it, got mad (again!!), and signed the petition.

OUT! OUT!

Damn it all! This is not MY America!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:00 AM

It's been happening for a long time...and in many places. In Asia. In Latin America. In Africa. In Europe. In the Middle East. Wherever the servants of the Empire go.

It's just been made official now, that's all. That's what's different. Have care, because first they torture and murder powerless foreign people in faraway places, and they do it quietly and you don't even hear about it much, if at all. Then one day they do it on your own ground. And they hardly even bother to conceal it anymore.

That's how it works. A little bit at a time. It's called the totalitarion tiptoe. It approaches in little steps, small increments of change, and one day there it is right in front of you and all around you. By that time the mainstream media will simply be its compliant mouthpiece, and the courts will have been bought.

It does things like launching unprovoked wars of its own choice on distant countries that have never attacked you, and couldn't possibly have attacked you even if they'd wanted to. It declares war on a tactic ("terror") rather than on an actual enemy, while it practices the very tactic that it claims to BE fighting! That's what dictators do. That's what war criminals do. That's what totalitarian systems do. Take care. Such people are literally capable of anything, and they don't care what you think about it either...although they might care enough to find a way to shut you up at some point if you are a known "dissident".

Do you think it will just end when Mr Bush leaves office? I wish I was that optimistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:10 AM

Why was this not headlined in every news medium in America from the New York Times to Ugly Bill and Hannity on Fux News?

Tell ya what -- if it turned out that Kerry, Obama, or even Ms Clinton had sat in on that meeting, it would have.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Alice
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:15 AM

I got an email this morning too, about Condi Rice chairing the meetings and specific torture techniques approved.
you are not the only one who is angry.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Alice
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:18 AM

"Given new revelations that Condoleezza Rice chaired the meetings approving specific torture techniques, she can not continue as Secretary of State. Secretary of State Rice Must Resign"

Petition
http://act.truemajorityaction.org/p/7002/condipetition?petition_KEY=51

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Tweed
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:20 AM

You're right on Don. It ain't been your America nor mine for the last eight years. I feel like an ex-patriated stranger in a strange land these days.

Aslo, oddly enough I have damn near stopped feeling anything anymore. Almost, like to avoid losing my entire mind, I've managed to subconsciously distance myself from anything they do. Like a fucking ant in an anthill. Nobody can hear one ant with all the others screaming and gnashing their mandibles...what the hell's the use. It ain't gonna stop unless we all go apeshit and sway the military over to standard thinking patterns and that ain't happening either.   We're pretty much fucked from here on I fear.

More vino! Strike up the band Maestro!! Stick the hose in another detainee's mouth and let it rip. We must defend the motherland at all costs....

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:25 AM

In the first place, who knows what he knew and when he knew it - including him! In the second place, why should he start caring now what anyone thinks of him? Even the people who are supposedly members of the same political party are rushing to disassociate themselves from him. What were the most recent poll results? A 23% approval rating? It is more than a little depressing that there are still that many people with their heads in the sand, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 01:06 AM

Pissed, Angry, Mad aren't even close to how I feel. I'm seeing red & the blood is boiling. Who the fuck do they think they are. And doing all this in our name too!
It's no wonder we get no respect anywhere our names are mentioned, & why should we? We don't protest (much), we don't boycott, we don't call general strikes but we do sit by & allow this kind of shit to continue (mostly). If backwater 3rd world nations can change their directions why can't we? We certinly have the resources & capabilities, or are we all just sleepwalking?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 01:23 AM

For the first time on Mudcat, I am going to keep my mouth shut. I just saw the shame, despair and anger from a political spectrum of posters. Finding out what's happened to your country under the leadership of that person in the White House sure does send a few things home, but it is YOUR home. I hope we don't find it out the hard way in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 03:57 AM

Didn't the Great Bush once baldly assert, "The United States doe not condone torture"?


Or am I mixing that up with Vlad?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:11 AM

Would that be Vlad the Headless or Vlad the Crucifier? Or were they both one in the same, Vampires?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:47 AM

Where's Teribus when you need him?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:12 AM

Join the club USA The European Court found Britain guilty twice, but it wasn`t too bad, it was only inhuman and degrading treatment, that was akin to`come rest your mouth on my boot`. See John McGuffin`s book on Google, The Guinea Pigs.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:24 AM

". . . his private parts committed a severe and unprovoked attack on my kneecap, nearly incapacitating him -me, I mean, Your Worships.

Constable Wizleigh will testify that he then tried to chew the toecaps of my boots. This explains the loss of teeth and contusions to his lips, Your Worships . . . "

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 09:43 AM

So what else is new? And what do you think will be done about it? After all, it was all done in the name of "security."

Come, get out of the way, boys
Quick, get out of the way
You'd better watch what you say, boys
Better watch what you say
We've rammed in your harbor and tied to your port
And our pistols are hungry and our tempers are short
So bring your daughters around to the port
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World
We pick and choose as please, boys
Pick and choose as please
You'd best get down on your knees, boys
Best get down on your knees
We're hairy and horny and ready to shack
And we don't care if you're yellow or black
Just take off your clothes and lay down on your back
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World
Our boots are needing a shine, boys
Boots are needing a shine
But our Coca-Cola is fine, boys
Coca-Cola is fine
We've got to protect all our citizens fair
So we'll send a battalion for everyone there
And maybe we'll leave in a couple of years
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World
And dump the reds in a pile, boys
Dump the reds in a pile
You'd better wipe off that smile, boys
Better wipe off that smile
We'll spit through the streets of the cities we wreck
And we'll find you a leader that you can't elect
Those treaties we signed were a pain in the neck
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World
And clean the johns with a rag, boys
Clean the johns with a rag
If you like you can use your flag, boys
If you like you can use your flag
We've got too much money we're looking for toys
And guns will be guns and boys will be boys
But we'll gladly pay for all we destroy
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World
Please stay off of the grass, boys
Please stay off of the grass
Here's a kick in the ass, boys
Here's a kick in the ass
We'll smash down your doors, we don't bother to knock
We've done it before, so why all the shock
We're the biggest and the toughest kids on the block
And we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World
And when we butchered your sons, boys
When we butchered your sons
Have a stick of our gum, boys
Have a stick of our bubble gum
We own half the world, oh say can you see
And the name for our profits is democracy
So, like it or not, you will have to be free
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 06:58 PM

Hello Guest,PMB, I'm here, was there anything you wanted?

Nice to see that Bryn Pugh has chipped in. Wonder if this is the same Bryn Pugh who came out with this:

"Bryn Pugh - PM
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:12 AM

Iam with Richard, here, and not just because I am a fellow lawyer.

I was on the picket lines :
Clay Cross rent strike ; Tower Hamlets rent strike ; Minrers' strike 72, 73, 74 ; antiNF rally, Hyde, 1975 - (where we learnt to fight back - cricket boxes protected lads' nuts ; fencing protectors protected lasses' breasts ; wellies were stuffed with newspaper against back-heels from bogies ; and hat-pins dipped in dogshit retaliated. Oh, and Anderton nearly got his head kicked in cos he was in civvies.)

Grunwick picket line, 1978."

Now in amongst all that you have - "hat-pins dipped in dogshit".

Now then Bryn could you tell us what they were used for? Not sticking into Police Horses was it? Into Police Officers? Must have been for something. Which is odd, because you see Old Bryn, he's a lawyer. So maybe he can toddle off and do a bit of research and tell how long ago that those sort of antics were outlawed in warfare and accepted as a crime by all, give you a hint, it was long before the Geneva Convention was ever thought of and it still remains on the books to this day - anybody dipping ammunition, the blade of any weapon in any toxic, or poisonous substance is guilty of a war crime.

Having read the link referred to in TIA's opening hysterical rant, it comes down to an arguement based on semantics "Harsh Interrogation v Torture". Maybe someone should ask John McCain, he was subjected to "Torture" over an extended period, the purpose of that treatment was not to extract military secrets or information but to physically break him and get him to toe the Party line. Maybe he could compare notes with Kahlid Sheik Mohamed who was subjected to "harsh interrogation" over quite a short period of time, the purpose of which was to gain secret information, did his interrogators get any information, was the interrogation successful? We will know that in a few years time. Of course we cannot ask the likes of Kenneth Bigley, Nick Berg or Eugene Armstrong as part of their torture was having their heads cut off.

Reading through what was supposed to be permitted, it is no more than is used in the training of any combat aircrew; naval attack swimmer; SBS swimmer/canoeist; SAS Trooper.

To use such techniques, is it justifiable? I would think it could be perfectly justifiable under certain circumstances, and I could understand that those circumstances could vary dramatically.

Nice also to see ard here on this thread as well, the UK was hauled to the European Court for using harsh interrogation techniques, they were trying to get information. The Provisional IRA tortured their prisoners and then executed them (Mrs Jean MacConville) to extract completely false "confessions".

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:07 PM

But the rights and wrongs of torture are NOT the issue here, however. Plain and simple: the President, Vice President and Condi broke the law. Period. THAT is the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:43 PM

Well, here's the way it works.

Bill Clinton broke the law when he lied about "I did not have sex with that woman." He had to be impeached.

Bush, Cheney, and Rice lied about whether or not the United States condones and practices torture (a violation of the Geneva Accords). That's just hunky-dory.

Could this possibly have something to do with party affiliation. . . ?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:44 PM

Ah, but since it is official policy that under no circumstances does the US "condone torture" then by definition anything that the US condones or practices cannot be "torture". So that's all right.

The old maxim still holds: the King can do no wrong.

Just watch Condoleeza Rice repeatedly explaining that US can and does never condone torture, and that it is always a crime.

Doesn't she do it well? It's an amazing ability to be able to be so passionately sincere when you are lying through your teeth.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:17 PM

She really needs to b brought to trial, and bring her Uberfuhrer with her.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 03:23 AM

OK, just when we thought we'd found an issue Teribus could agree wiuth us on.

Teribus supports torture. I should have known it.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:27 AM

Looking at that vid of Ms Rice so passionately disavowing torture Yeats's words came to mind:

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:32 AM

Teribus -

It's the same Bryn Pugh whose private parts committed a severe and unprovoked attack on the poor police's kneecap.

The same Bryn Pugh who sustained cut and bruised lips from trying to chew the toecaps off a police's boots.

The same Bryn Pugh who shaved his head because he became a little exasperated by polices lifting him off the deck by his sideburns.

The samwe Bryn Pugh who to this day (except in Court when not wearing bands) does not wear a necktie, because he became exasperated with being damn near asphyxiated by polices
pulling in the end of it.

The same Bryn Pugh who lobbied MPs to ensure that the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 reached the Statute book.

As to what the hatpins were used for, Teribus - mind your own fucking business.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:34 AM

Some are experts at defending the indefensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:18 AM

Waterboard Bush and Cheney and this stuff will stop...

But seriously.... We need an entire culture change in America... Our collective thinking has become severly screwed up...

We will never win a war on terrorism so we need to undo the neocon's PR because the current war on terrorism is absolutely "insane" because we are repeating behaviors expecting different results...

(But, Boberdz, how do you go about changing a culure and why aren't people in the streets???)

Well, for one we have an administartion that have proven over and over again that it doesn't give a rat's ass what the people think or what the people want so we're going to juts have to wait these folks out...

And, two, we don't have the microphone... Micro-microphones, yes thru the internet but not "The Microphone"...

I feel the tides turning away from the nightmarish and failed policies of the last 30 or so years... Timing is everything and the pendelum is swinging back toward humanism and compassion... Unfortunaely, it's a lot like watching a pot of water come to a boil... We need to be ready when it boils but, right now, we juts have to ride out some more crap...

Wish it were different but it ain't...

B~

p.s. This from obne who participated in mnay of the anti-war demonsrations in D.C. since the mad-dash-to-Iraq...

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:03 AM

Well Bryn you law abiding model citizen, wandering out onto the streets fully prepared to "retaliate" you probably deserved everything that came your way.

The hat pins dipped in dog-shit were used against police horses. This sort of behaviour was generally considered to be a bit infra dig during the middle-ages. The "strikers" also had some neat little wheeze aimed at crippling police horses, when successful the horses normally had to be destroyed.

Yes Bryn you probably did deserve everything that came your way, you were probably begging for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:10 AM

There are those who have called for the resignation of Ms Rice over the issue of approving torture. They should not be so hasty in view of the fact there has not been another 9-11.


paid for by the

'People for the freedom of torture and the American Way'

a subsidary of the Clark lawfirm.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: irishenglish
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:54 AM

Teribus, have you ever read accounts of people who have been tortured? Have you ever met someone who was subjected to mental or physical torture? I have, and for all the victims I met, there is an anguish in their eyes, which years later, does not go away. I will not repeat some of the things these people told me they were subjected to, because it makes my stomach nauseous. Suffice it to say, I cannot, or will not ever approve of the use of torture in any means. Before 9/11 I had debates with people about the use of torture as a means of extracting crucial information at a critical time. Think of it like a bad Hollywood movie, if we can torture this guy, he'll tell us where the bomb is, and we can save thousands of lives. In reality, it won't work like that, plans can be changed, or when someone like Kahlid Sheik Mohamed is captured, they immediately go to Plan B, which renders information gleaned from torture as unuseful.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:07 PM

That seems to be the opinion of many former intellegece folks as well, irishenglish...

At the very least it brings US down to Saddam's level meaning that the Taliban can declare victory any time they like...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:51 PM

I just heard an interview on the radio with a woman had been in the Army for twenty years and who spent her last several years of government service in the State Department. A few years ago, she resigned in disgust when she could no longer tolerated the disparity between what the State Department knew leading up to the Iraq war and what the public was being told. When the interviewer pointed out that the United States has not undergone a terrorist attack since 9/11, she responded, "Despite the much touted 'protective measures,' many of which involving erosion of civil rights, this country is so porous that terrorists could attack us any time they want. But they don't need to. They are sitting back and watching with satisfaction as this country destroys itself." [She has a book just out, and I tried to get her name and the title of the book, but the radio station's web site is temporarily off-line. As soon as it's back, I'll post it.]

Apart from the moral issue, there is the question of whether or not torture is an effective way of extracting accurate information. Especially with the mid-set of the current terrorists, it obviously is not. Let's take the standard scenario that many advocates of torture present:    A nuclear bomb has been planted in a major city and is set to go off in a very few hours. We have captured a terrorist who was in on the plot and knows where the bomb is located. Of course, he refuses to say what city it's in and where it is within that city.

So we apply the thumb-screws. Literally. Waterboarding, electric shock to the genitals, whatever strikes the torturers sadistic fancy. AHA! Success! He blurts out that the bomb is in New York City, and he gives the exact location.   We make a quick phone call and a team of specialists rushes to the location.

Just as they discover that there is nothing there, Washington, D. C. goes up in a horrendous fireball.

The terrorist knows that he's dead meat anyway. And when he is not just willing to die for his cause, but eager to do so because he believes it assures him a place in Paradise, he sits back and laughs. No matter what they do to him now, he has just bought himself a first-class ticket to Allah's favor and a state of Eternal Bliss.

Those who are willing to commit mass murder to achieve their ends are beyond the pale. Less than human. There are very effective ways of dealing with terrorism that the leaders of our country are simply unwilling to try because it means drastic changes in our foreign policy. But for the sake of this discussion, that's another matter.

Those who torture, those who authorize torture, those who defend it, and those who just prefer to look the other way are also less than human. I have nothing but the greatest disgust and contempt for terrorists and torturers alike.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 02:18 PM

Those who are willing to commit mass murder to achieve their ends are beyond the pale. Less than human. There are very effective ways of dealing with terrorism that the leaders of our country are simply unwilling to try because it means drastic changes in our foreign policy. But for the sake of this discussion, that's another matter.



Don:

I would be most interested to hear your sugegstions and reserarch on effective alternate methods of dealing with terrorism. Seriously. Please start the thread or add to this one, if you will.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 02:38 PM

Much of the time torture isn't so much about extracting information as about grinding down prisoners so that they become totally malleable, and will say or do whatever is convenient to the captors.

Teribus's summary of John McCain's experience "subjected to "Torture" over an extended period, the purpose of that treatment was not to extract military secrets or information but to physically break him and get him to toe the Party line" is very reminiscent indeed of much that has come out about the way prisoners of the US and UK have been treated in recent years.

And of course there is also a recreational aspect to it, as exemplified in the Abu Ghraib events which were so inconveniently leaked into the public domain. But that won't happen again in a hurry. The leaking, I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 02:40 PM

These days the only things that leak in such events are sphincters.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:28 PM

As I said, Amos, this would involve drastic changes in this country's foreign policy and our whole method of dealing with other countries.

Although this is not the only source of such information, I have cited John Perkins', Confessions of an Economic Hit Man a number of times.   He certainly shines a light on the roots of the problem. There are those here who will discount this because of the source (Democracy Now) and the interviewer (Amy Goodman), but with the media being what it is, where else are you going to hear this?   HERE. Click on one of the "Listen/Watch" links. About seven minutes into the interview, Perkins begins talking about the deal made with Saudi Arabia, then Iraq. This explains a lot about our present situation and how we got here. Perkins has recently come out with a second book, The Secret History of the American Empire.

Perkins' revelations are one of a number of places one can start to get an idea of why so many people in the world are angry at the United States. It's not that they hate our way of life (the reason we're usually given to explain the terrorists' motivation), its because the "way of life" of some of the richest Americans is on their backs, and has been for generations. Understandably, there are a lot of people in the world who are fed up with it and are starting to fight back the only way they know how.

This does not excuse terrorism and mass murder, but it certainly explains it.

The ball is in our court. The root cause of so much hatred for this country is actually an internal American problem. And a big one!

What are we going to do about it?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:49 PM

That interview is a real poke in the eye, even though I read Confessions of an Economic Hitman years ago. John Perkins is a private hero and I wonder if he moves often or manages to sleep at night, worrying about Bechtel (Veep and Co.)seeking revenge.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:58 PM

>>"According to a top official, Ashcroft asked aloud after one meeting: "Why are we talking about this in the White House? History will not judge this kindly." <<

"Ashcroft was troubled by the discussions. He agreed with the general policy decision to allow aggressive tactics and had repeatedly advised that they were legal. But he argued that senior White House advisers should not be involved in the grim details of interrogations, sources said."

They all signed off on it. Ashcroft managed to get this quote of his into the national media. He wanted it done, but he wanted plausible deniability and/or distance from detailed allegations. Rice took charge of the issue, stayed involved, and took responsibility off of the CIA and onto herself.

Which of the two deserves a warmer room in Hades?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:49 AM

Torture is also handy if you need a patsy for something really big. If you can get enough people to confess to being terrorists (which they have done), you can justify all kinds of erosions of civil liberties in your own country.

I'm not so curious about whether or not Teribus has ever seen anyone who has been tortured as I am about whether or not he has ever participated in that sort of activity himself. He seem awfully keen on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 06:43 AM

Somewhere I'd read an essay on the ten steps towards a Dictatorship & as torture beings one of the steps in point, it was noted that every Dictorship that used torture on their enemies eventually somewhere going down the lined ended up using torture on their own citizens.

I'd fully agree with Don's assessment. Where Don says

"its because the "way of life" of some of the richest Americans is on their backs, and has been for generations."

I'd change "on their backs" to
"under their thumbs"

I've always felt that we (the US) conveniently deal with terrorism in a way a doctor would treat the symptoms of a disease, using a knee jerk reaction rather than investigating the cause of the disease/problem & dealing with the root source.
I would want to ask why someone would feel so desprate as to resort to mass murder not just "Bush it under the rug" buy saying their culture hates us. No one hates with out some sort of cause. What's the cause? It's just to easy to fire back & invade unless that the purpose to begin with.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 07:02 AM

Exactly, Barry...

We need an extreme make-over that promotes humanism...

Until we change the "culture" we wil be like hamsters in a wheel wondering why things aren't getting better for US...

And this "culture" change needs to be top-to-bottom... I don't think the rich folk really want US to end up looking like Haiti where they are only *safe* ib their compounds (Green Zones)...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 08:43 AM

Last night I watched a programme on how the SAS (forerunner to the CIA) conspired with the Nazis against The Soviet Union.
This morning I opened my paper to read a long article on how top members of the US Government are sanctioning the use of torture in its 'war on terror'
Threads like this give me hope that the US isn't entirely comprised of fascist shitbags - thanks for that folks.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 08:53 AM

Front page lead in today's Guardian Top Bush aides pushed for Guantánamo torture:

America's most senior general was "hoodwinked" by top Bush administration officials determined to push through aggressive interrogation techniques of terror suspects held at Guantánamo Bay, leading to the US military abandoning its age-old ban on the cruel and inhumane treatment of prisoners, the Guardian reveals today.

General Richard Myers, chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff from 2001 to 2005, wrongly believed that inmates at Guantánamo and other prisons were protected by the Geneva conventions and from abuse tantamount to torture.

The way he was duped by senior officials in Washington, who believed the Geneva conventions and other traditional safeguards were out of date, is disclosed in a devastating account of their role, extracts of which appear in today's Guardian...

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: irishenglish
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 10:44 AM

Jim Carroll-just as an aside, I wouldn't consider the SAS to be a precursor to the CIA. They are an extremely elite commando unit, and for sure they are the ones involved in deep covert activity, but they are not an intelligence orgainization in and of themselves. But I am interested in that program.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 11:21 AM

Wasn't the SAS --it were the OSS.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 12:43 PM

Amos,
O.S.S. is right - sorry about that.
The programme was called 'Operation Sunrise' and was on RTE 2 at 8pm last night.
The Guardian article on the use of torture at Guantanamo puts much of it down to the series '24'. The journalist claims that some of the techniques and much of the morality for the use of torture has been lifted straight from this.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 01:26 PM

I suspect that one effect of 24 has been to encourage the American Public to see torture as part of the American Way, and as OK, so long as it's done by the Right People.

"It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it" is the line, and an awful lot of people buy it. Very much the same as that laid out by Himmler talking to the SS: "To have gone through this and yet - apart from a few exceptions, examples of human weakness - to have remained decent fellows, this is what has made us hard. This is a glorious page in our history that has never been written and shall never be written."

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:37 PM

Can someone refresh my memory about where McCain really stands on torture when it is inflicted by the US?

I have a distinct recollection of being greatly disillusioned at reading some time ago that he had voted in favour of a piece of Cheney (OK Bush if you prefer) regime legislation authorising some form of supposedly "lite" torture. But when I google "McCain" and "torture", all I get is page after page of stuff about what seems to be a bill that he subsequently introduced, apparently with the aim of whitewashing his image.